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Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?

Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?  

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  1. 1. Who's Most Responsible for Pats* Dynasty: Brady or Belichick?



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Posted (edited)

I looked at a list of top 25 HC's and while there are obvious indications of having a good QB,  it isn't always true

 

21. Marty Schottenheimer
Cleveland 1984-88; Kansas City 1989-98; Washington 2001; San Diego 2002-06
200-126-1 (21 years), 5-13 in playoffs and 8 division titles

 

16. Dick Vermeil
Philadelphia 1976-82; St. Louis Rams 1997-99; Kansas City 2001-05
120-109 (15 years), 6-5 in playoffs
3 division titles and  2 Super Bowl appearances (XV, XXXIV)  Super Bowl XXXIV champion


15. Tony Dungy
Tampa Bay 1996-2001; Indianapolis 2002-08
139-69 (13 years), 9-10 in playoffs
6 division titles, Super Bowl XLI champion, Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2016

 

 

6. Joe Gibbs
Washington 1981-92, 2004-07
154-94 (16 years), 17-7 in playoffs, 5 division titles, 4 Super Bowl appearances (XVII, XVIII, XXII, XXVI)
Super Bowl XVII, XXII, XXVI champion

Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1996

Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. That’s a testament to a great coach.

 

 

3. Don Shula
Baltimore Colts 1963-69, Miami 1970-95
328-156-6 (33 years), 19-17 in playoffs
16 division titles
6 Super Bowl appearances (III, VI, VII, VIII, XVII, XIX)
Super Bowl VII, VIII champion
Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1997

Pro football’s all-time career wins leaders coached in six Super Bowls and commandeered the only perfect season in NFL history.
 

Arguably Marino was the best QB Shula had and he had maybe 1 SB appearance   (and he may not have been the starter then)  IIRC

Edited by ShadyBillsFan
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33 minutes ago, mannc said:

At this point, it’s not provable, one way or the other.  Perhaps after Brady retires and the Pats keep winning, we’ll have our answer.

 

As great as Brady is, if he had not come along, I don’t think there’s much doubt that Belichick would have found another franchise QB somewhere, somehow.  Maybe he doesn’t win six Super Bowls, but still...

But Belichick didn’t before Brady.  He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history.

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I've never seen a QB make so many critical throws to win playoff games/Super Bowls. Brady is the no brainer decision. My next poll would be which person would you choose to be on the Bills between Belicheat and Brady.

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1 minute ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

I looked at a list of top 25 HC's and while there obvious indications of having a good BB it isn't always true

 

21. Marty Schottenheimer
Cleveland 1984-88; Kansas City 1989-98; Washington 2001; San Diego 2002-06
200-126-1 (21 years), 5-13 in playoffs and 8 division titles

 

16. Dick Vermeil
Philadelphia 1976-82; St. Louis Rams 1997-99; Kansas City 2001-05
120-109 (15 years), 6-5 in playoffs
3 division titles and  2 Super Bowl appearances (XV, XXXIV)  Super Bowl XXXIV champion


15. Tony Dungy
Tampa Bay 1996-2001; Indianapolis 2002-08
139-69 (13 years), 9-10 in playoffs
6 division titles, Super Bowl XLI champion, Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 2016

 

 

6. Joe Gibbs
Washington 1981-92, 2004-07
154-94 (16 years), 17-7 in playoffs, 5 division titles, 4 Super Bowl appearances (XVII, XVIII, XXII, XXVI)
Super Bowl XVII, XXII, XXVI champion

Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1996

Gibbs won three Super Bowls with three different quarterbacks. That’s a testament to a great coach.

 

 

3. Don Shula
Baltimore Colts 1963-69, Miami 1970-95
328-156-6 (33 years), 19-17 in playoffs
16 division titles
6 Super Bowl appearances (III, VI, VII, VIII, XVII, XIX)
Super Bowl VII, VIII champion
Pro Football Hall of Fame, Class of 1997

Pro football’s all-time career wins leaders coached in six Super Bowls and commandeered the only perfect season in NFL history.
 

Arguably Marino was the best QB Shula had and he had maybe 1 SB appearance   (and he may not have been the starter then)  IIRC

Joe Gibbs is the most underrated coach in nfl history.  Most great coaches have a great qb.  What Gibbs did with his qbs is amazing.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But Belichick didn’t before Brady.  He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history.

my god I am :sick: just thinking about what I am about to post 

 

Bellyache had a losing record in Cleveland BUT he had the team getting better every season and then they sold the team to the city of Baltimore and they all basically quit 

 

Edited by ShadyBillsFan

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1 minute ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

my god I am :sick: just thinking about what I about to post 

 

Bellyache had a losing record in Cleveland BUT he had the team getting better every season and then they sold the team to the city of Baltimore and they all basically quit 

 

He had one winning season in his first 6 years.  In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long.  He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady.

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Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

He had one winning season in his first 6 years.  In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long.  He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady.

that's quite true and funny  

 

Now I don't feel :sick: anymore 

 

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I think it's more Brady IMO than BB. Although I do think he is a good coach (hated to type that), but IMO quite a few different coaches could have taken their team to the playoffs and have made a couple Super Bowl appearances with Tom Brady at the helm and with an average defense.

 

Maybe not quite as many Super Bowl wins as they have now but I still think if coach BB was not there or if he had left a few years back, IMO they would not have fell off but so much.

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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How can anyone make this claim?  When has Brady been without Belichick?  Belichick struggled as a head coach with Brady.  Brady has never played without Belichick.  

 

And the Cassel point is such garbage.  They won 5 less games than the previous year and scored 179 less points.  Also in 2016, they averaged 20.25 points/ game without Brady and  30.9 points/ game with him.  Brady might be the greatest qb ever.

Yeah, I don’t get it either. Great qb > great coach

Other teams don't post winning seasons when their HoF QB goes down.  The Colts went from Super Bowl contender to first overall pick.  The Pack miss the playoffs.  

 

The Pats with Cassel still manage to win 11 games even after having to re-write the script for a backup.  The Pats go 3-1 when Brady is suspended.  They shutout a playoff team with their 3rd stringer.

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Belichick put everything together to allow Brady excel specifically keeping games within reach with his defense or add kickers that can make a big kick when counted on etc. Now Brady might be one of the most clutch QB ever too which has helped the team as well. It's really tough to give one the advantage over the other. Yet I go with the coach since he also excelled he was responsible for the Giants success. 

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17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But Belichick didn’t before Brady.  He was on his way to getting fired by a second team until Mo Lewis changed history.

Belichick took the Browns to the playoffs.  He got fired when the entire organization cratered in the wake of the move to Baltimore.  As to the second part, that’s pure speculation.  And at any rate, other coaches have succeeded after failing in the first (and even second) gigs (Pete Carroll, for example).     I think it’s safe to say that Belichick became a better head coach over  the past 20 years. 

 

As to the Pats record without Brady, I think it’s too small of a sample size to conclude much.

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3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Other teams don't post winning seasons when their HoF QB goes down.  The Colts went from Super Bowl contender to first overall pick.  The Pack miss the playoffs.  

 

The Pats with Cassel still manage to win 11 games even after having to re-write the script for a backup.  The Pats go 3-1 when Brady is suspended.  They shutout a playoff team with their 3rd stringer.

The 49ers did.  Also, it shows how overrated the GM of the Colts and Packers were.  The Bills would win 7 games with Trent Edwards and JP Losman.

 

and Tim Tebow made the playoffs.  Flukes happen.  Belichick has never won a playoff game without Brady. 

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

Belichick took the Browns to the playoffs.  He got fired when the entire organization cratered in the wake of the move to Baltimore.  As to the second part, that’s pure speculation.  And at any rate, other coaches have succeeded after failing in the first (and even second) gigs (Pete Carroll, for example).     I think it’s safe to say that Belichick became a better head coach over  the past 20 years. 

 

As to the Pats record without Brady, I think it’s too small of a sample size to conclude much.

It’s complete speculation to say he could do this without Brady too.  He has never won a playoff game without Brady.  

 

And Carroll had a better first 6 years than Belichick. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CarrPe0.htm

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43 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

He had one winning season in his first 6 years.  In today’s nfl, he won’t have made it that long.  He was basically Dick Jauron until he got Brady.

 

Name an all-time great Head Coach who didn't have an elite QB.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

It’s complete speculation to say he could do this without Brady too.  He has never won a playoff game without Brady.  

 

And Carroll had a better first 6 years than Belichick. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CarrPe0.htm

I agree that it's complete speculation to predict what one would have done without the other.  Brady's never won a playoff game without Belichick.  I think this is Brady's last year and then we'll find out for sure which one was more important.  I'm betting on Belichick.  He's already re-molding the Pats into a team that is less dependent on great quarterbacking and I don't think they'll miss a beat when Brady retires.

 

Please, Carroll got fired twice before he succeeded with Seattle.  His early NFL record is not appreciably better than Belichick's.  Like Belichick, he became a better coach as he got older.  It also didn't hurt that he got Russ Wilson.      

Edited by mannc

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23 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Belichick 

 

Brady never would have become Brady without Belichick.  

Brady. Belichick wasn't a winning HC before Brady.

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In looking up Belichick's statistics, I saw that the Pats went 9-7 and failed to make the playoffs in 2002, the year after their first Super Bowl win.  I had completely forgotten about that. 

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If the Pats trade Brady to the Bills for any player on our roster, who makes the playoffs in 2020:  Pats, Bills, Neither, Both?

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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

The 49ers did.  Also, it shows how overrated the GM of the Colts and Packers were.  The Bills would win 7 games with Trent Edwards and JP Losman.

 

and Tim Tebow made the playoffs.  Flukes happen.  Belichick has never won a playoff game without Brady. 

 

Well  Actually...  IIRC  Drew Bledsoe came in off the bench and Won a playoff game for the Putz (saving the season) and then was benched when Tainted Tom returned. 

3 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

If the Pats trade Brady to the Bills for any player on our roster, who makes the playoffs in 2020:  Pats, Bills, Neither, Both?

Buffalo   :death:

 

 

 

(only because I despise NE***)

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On 7/14/2019 at 11:45 AM, Binghamton Beast said:

IMO, Brady.

 

The second Mo Lewis was the turning point for Belichick.

 

Yep - Mo “effing” Lewis

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Clearly it's Belli-cheat.  Would he have had as much success?  absolutely not, but he's the guy behind the machine pulling the strings.

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12 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

If the Pats trade Brady to the Bills for any player on our roster, who makes the playoffs in 2020:  Pats, Bills, Neither, Both?

 

Both - if the return is Josh Allen.

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I just think the helmet thing might be the biggest and most under reported thing of them all. Think of how huge it would be as a young QB to have the coach in your ear during the play. 

 

You'd have to get a lot better recognizing coverages and blitzes a hell of a lot faster than watching tape afterward. 

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