Gugny Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 43 minutes ago, VADC Bills said: I agree, BB wasn't a winning coach before Brady was starting. Let's not forget BB coached the Brown's and had one winning season. Trust me he wasn't considered a genius until Brady became the starting QB. I think he was considered a genius when he shut down the K-Gun offense and won a super bowl as a DC. And let's not forget that he inherited a pure crap Browns team and led them to a real wild card berth (not having to back in). Trust me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 49 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: Well, Brady did say he likes soft balls (no pun intended)...unless he was covering for BB, which is not out of the question. Those two work in tandem. Both could be true. I am surprised used to I used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 10 hours ago, K-9 said: From ABC news: Zero playoff games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Dirty B Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 35 minutes ago, Peace Frog said: Belichick, hands down. Bill's defense, drafting, coaching staff, and in-game coaching decisions have just as much to do with the Paytoilets' wins as Brady's offense. Have the Pats really drafted that much better than the Bills? I know people will point to Gronkowski, but I don't think they've drafted that much better than the Bills or anyone in the league. I think as far as trades go they seem to rip everyone off. I'm not sure why anyone trades with them. 11 hours ago, Bills2ref said: Belichick. His record with backup QBs speaks for itself. He went 10-6 with Matt Cassel and wasnt Garrapolo 2-0? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clearwater cadet Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said: Have the Pats really drafted that much better than the Bills? I know people will point to Gronkowski, but I don't think they've drafted that much better than the Bills or anyone in the league. Here. Take a look for yourself. And their trades are also worth mentioning. Randy Moss. Chris Hogan. etc,... Edited July 15, 2019 by Peace Frog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Dirty B Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Peace Frog said: Here. Take a look for yourself. And their trades are also worth mentioning. Randy Moss. Chris Hogan. etc,... Like how you conveniently edit my post where I mention their trades being good... I wouldn't put Chris Hogan on that list. If he didn't have a good playoff game he'd be forgotten. Also that was just a compensation pick, not really a trade... Edited July 15, 2019 by Ol Dirty B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 11 hours ago, Gugny said: Agree 100% with all of this. I'll also add that Belichick knows the NFL rules better than anyone on earth - and he uses that knowledge to his advantage. What most people call "cheating," is really just knowing the rules and using them to their benefit. Very True ☝️ Its not really a fair question overall because neither BB or Brady has as much success without the other. It’s really impossible to say who was more important. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Very True ☝️ Its not really a fair question overall because neither BB or Brady has as much success without the other. It’s really impossible to say who was more important. It's definitely not black and white. BB being the GM is what sways me toward him. If he was "just the coach," I'd probably go with Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Belichick and it's not close. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Belicheat. He enables Brady to cheat and Brady willfully complies. They both cheated. Belicheat is the PEDs and Brady is Barry Bonds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace Frog Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said: Like how you conveniently edit my post where I mention their trades being good... I wouldn't put Chris Hogan on that list. If he didn't have a good playoff game he'd be forgotten. Also that was just a compensation pick, not really a trade... Conveniently edit your post? I removed your reply to Bills2ref and must have removed the line above it. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive my error. Additionally, I would put Chris Hogan on that list. I feel he was a decent receiver that contributed to the Pats success; if Brady didn't trust Chris, he wouldn't have throw him the ball. My point to the original question of is Brady or Belichick more responsible, I say Bill, without a doubt. Anything the Pats dynasty has accomplished has Bill's fingerprints all over it. Think of Bill as The Emperor and Tom as Darth Vader. As good as Brady is, he would not have the same success on a different team. Belichick could get almost as good production from another decent QB. Imagine Bill with Big Ben, Andrew Luck, Pat Mahomes, etc.... Edited July 15, 2019 by Peace Frog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 14 hours ago, H2o said: I got Brady. How many SB wins do the Pats have without him as the starter? They've only had one crack at it to find out during BB's reign and he went 11-15. I think that's a pretty compelling case. If he was able to trade Brady and keep Jimmy G, I don't think he'd have missed a beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 belichick......leadership, preparations, discipline, managing the salary cap, game plans...taking away the opponents strengths, holding players accountable. team, team, team.....look at his record without brady for those knocking his record at previous teams....he wasn't the GM but having said that.....ever notice the greatest coaches always seem to have a pro bowl level QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemfield2622 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 I chose Belichick. Brady has obviously become one of the all time greats, but I don't think he gets there without Belichick. I still think we only understand a fraction of the cheating they did early in his career that got Brady to this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 7 hours ago, Gugny said: It's definitely not black and white. BB being the GM is what sways me toward him. If he was "just the coach," I'd probably go with Brady. Your logic and that of 71% of the respondents is flawed. Belichick is a great coach. Brady is a great QB. You don't get great coaches WITHOUT great QBs & you don't get dynasties without them either. The question asked is who is more responsible for the dynasty. The answer is obvious, Brady. Without him the pats are just another team with an eccentric HC. With him they are a dynasty. Toss in the fact that he has never held their feet to the fire monetarily and that he has publicly put up with 99% of Bill's crap and you have the NE dynasty. Put Rogers in that situation and tell me what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayoffsPlease Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 This is an interesting question. My first reaction is that it is certainly Belichick, because it is certainly easy to imagine him having the same level of success with Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Big Ben, or Drew Brees as QB. Maybe even with Philip Rivers. It would appear that Brady is the less rare element. On the other hand, Brady is the only QB who over the last decade who was willing to play for far below market value which has been a huge competitive advantage for the Patriots. I don't know how much a perennial $10-12 million salary cap advantage is worth to a team. The other factor that could very well be considered a third poll answer is. Playing in the leagues worst division being practically spotted 6 games per year. I don't think the dynasty would have happened in any other division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Belicheat bends the rules to get any advantage and Tainted Tom often does just enough to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: Your logic and that of 71% of the respondents is flawed. Belichick is a great coach. Brady is a great QB. You don't get great coaches WITHOUT great QBs & you don't get dynasties without them either. The question asked is who is more responsible for the dynasty. The answer is obvious, Brady. Without him the pats are just another team with an eccentric HC. With him they are a dynasty. Toss in the fact that he has never held their feet to the fire monetarily and that he has publicly put up with 99% of Bill's crap and you have the NE dynasty. Put Rogers in that situation and tell me what happens. not to put a hole in your balloon but .... Belicheat still manages to win w/o Brady. Backup quarterback Matt Cassel replaced Brady. Cassel's led the team to a win in Week 2 against the New York Jets, his first start since high school. Despite finishing the regular season with an 11–5 record, the Patriots did not qualify for the playoffs—becoming the first 11-win team since the expansion to a 12-team playoff in 1990 to not make the playoffs, Meh freaking Cassel!! And lets not forget the legends of James Garoppolo and Jacoby Brisset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_In_NH Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 If I had to pick one it would be Belicheck but without both they dont have all these SB's. It's the unlikely combination of best coach/best QB and longevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigPappy Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Neither, the Refs are thanks to all that money Robert Kraft pays them on the low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 25 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: not to put a hole in your balloon but .... Belicheat still manages to win w/o Brady. Backup quarterback Matt Cassel replaced Brady. Cassel's led the team to a win in Week 2 against the New York Jets, his first start since high school. Despite finishing the regular season with an 11–5 record, the Patriots did not qualify for the playoffs—becoming the first 11-win team since the expansion to a 12-team playoff in 1990 to not make the playoffs, Meh freaking Cassel!! And lets not forget the legends of James Garoppolo and Jacoby Brisset blips on the radar don't a dynasty make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: blips on the radar don't a dynasty make maybe maybe not, 11-5 with Meh Cassel. What is his record post NE? His first season in KC Meh Cassel had a 4-11 record, his 2nd 10-5, then 4-5 and 1-7. (19-28 overall in KC) How many of the transient players (brought into NE for 1 or 2 seasons) should be considered "blips on the radar"? Edited July 15, 2019 by ShadyBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 28 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: maybe maybe not, 11-5 with Meh Cassel. What is his record post NE? His first season in KC Meh Cassel had a 4-11 record, his 2nd 10-5, then 4-5 and 1-7. (19-28 overall in KC) How many of the transient players (brought into NE for 1 or 2 seasons) should be considered "blips on the radar"? The blips were at the QB position. Other rental players don't matter. You answered your own question regarding Cassel. His 'success' was unsustainable. Brady's success has been sustained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: The blips were at the QB position. Other rental players don't matter. You answered your own question regarding Cassel. His 'success' was unsustainable. Brady's success has been sustained. LOL Or was it the Coach that made his success sustainable? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Thankfully, this thread has helped me answer the burning question of what it must be like to discuss only deep Pats-centric questions on a Pats board . For them, it must be something along the lines of the "debate" between the SNL "Bill Swersky superfans" roundtable (look it up kids) where figuring out who would win between Ditka and Michael Jordan, or Ditka versus a hurricane named "Ditka" were considered over heaping plates of Polish sausage. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: LOL Or was it the Coach that made his success sustainable? Nope. It's both, but without Brady Belichick is nothing special. You must have that QB. Give me a list of your top coaches NFL all time. What do they have in common? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 People often cite the 11-5 Cassell record - but we really enabled that. 2 of the most winnable games ever that we just Billsed to the max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Success said: People often cite the 11-5 Cassell record - but we really enabled that. 2 of the most winnable games ever that we just Billsed to the max. They were also 16-0 the year before...that's a 5 game drop which is a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: Nope. It's both, but without Brady Belichick is nothing special. You must have that QB. Give me a list of your top coaches NFL all time. What do they have in common? Who is Brady Belichick? #commalivesmatter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Gugny said: Who is Brady Belichick? #commalivesmatter ? Edited July 15, 2019 by Cripple Creek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 WOW. I had Brady. Was not expecting that result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cripple Creek Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 minute ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said: WOW. I had Brady. Was not expecting that result. It's ok. You are correct. Don't let the lemmings sway you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProcessAccepted Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 22 hours ago, Binghamton Beast said: What would that be? Didn’t the Bills shut them out in New England without Brady? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bing Bong Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: They were also 16-0 the year before...that's a 5 game drop which is a lot. That roster was STACKED as well. Everybody at the time still thought of them as a really good team even after Brady went down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 22 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: Nope. It's both, but without Brady Belichick is nothing special. You must have that QB. Give me a list of your top coaches NFL all time. What do they have in common? How can anyone make this claim? When has Brady been without Belichick? Belichick struggled as a head coach with Brady. Brady has never played without Belichick. And the Cassel point is such garbage. They won 5 less games than the previous year and scored 179 less points. Also in 2016, they averaged 20.25 points/ game without Brady and 30.9 points/ game with him. Brady might be the greatest qb ever. 7 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said: WOW. I had Brady. Was not expecting that result. Yeah, I don’t get it either. Great qb > great coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: How can anyone make this claim? When has Brady been without Belichick? Belichick struggled as a head coach with Brady. Brady has never played without Belichick. And the Cassel point is such garbage. They won 5 less games than the previous year and scored 179 less points. Also in 2016, they averaged 20.25 points/ game without Brady and 30.9 points/ game with him. Brady might be the greatest qb ever. He probably is - his playoff numbers are insanely good too. Last 3 years, 8-1 in the playoffs 66% comp, averaging 358 per game - they scored a ton of TDs on the ground this past year, but that all opens up because brady basically carves you up unless you play nickel. And if you're in nickel they just abuse you with the ground game. 14 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said: One of these things is not like the other.... 4806 50/8 68.9% 16-0 vs. 3693 21/11 63.4% 11-5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 At this point, it’s not provable, one way or the other. Perhaps after Brady retires and the Pats keep winning, we’ll have our answer. As great as Brady is, if he had not come along, I don’t think there’s much doubt that Belichick would have found another franchise QB somewhere, somehow. Maybe he doesn’t win six Super Bowls, but still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 This game revolves around having a top 5 QB. Brady has made so so so so many big time throws to win Super Bowls and playoff games. If both these guys were FA they would both have their choice of teams. Brady without a doubt would win a lot more Super Bowls with his new team then Belicheat. It sickens me to say this but Brady's is just on a different level when is comes to pressure situations, pocket awareness, accuracy, confidence, game situations, never rattled, knowledge and film study and big play making. Without Brady Belicheat is like so many good coaches that couldn't find a top 5 QB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 57 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said: Nope. It's both, but without Brady Belichick is nothing special. You must have that QB. Give me a list of your top coaches NFL all time. What do they have in common? agree to that - They needed each other to be successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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