How much should height be a factor in which WR's to make the final roster?

[tomur67]

Right now we have 4 wr's in the range of 5' 8-5'9".   Beasley is 5'8", Bolden 5'8", McKenzie 5'8", McCloud 5'9". 

5 wr's in the range of 5'11" - 6'0".   Brown is 5'11", Roberts 5'11", Easley 5'11", Phillips 6;0", Scott 6'0"

4 wr's in the range of 6'2" -6'4".   Foster is 6'2", Jones 6'2". Williams 6'3",  Sills 6'4"

Obviously, talent, motivation, etc. are the most important considerations ,  but can you keep 3 or 4 of the 5'8" on the roster?

[Bangarang]

You keep whoever gets open and catches the ball.

[whatdrought]

Just now, Bangarang said:

You keep whoever gets open and catches the ball.

 

Yes, this. But I think you do need to look at a diversity of skills. If there’s someone who can consistently win jump balls, you might value that over two smaller guys who have similar play styles

[Big Turk]

None, unless 2 WRs are equal and then maybe you keep the bigger guy

Edited May 4, 2019 by matter2003

[Tsaikotic]

From what I've read, Beane and McD originally were trying to go with big possession receivers like KB...they ended up changing the plan after watching how Allen plays, so now they want basically what Bangarang said "guys with speed that can get open and catch the ball"...I think they'll go with 1 or maybe 2 WR's in the KB style, like Duke on the roster right now...although I have never seen Duke play so I really have no idea if he can move and get open or not

[Buffalo Junction]

21 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Yes, this. But I think you do need to look at a diversity of skills. If there’s someone who can consistently win jump balls, you might value that over two smaller guys who have similar play styles

True, but height isn’t always indicative of skill set. Some WRs play a lot bigger than their listed size. Davante Adams and OBJ aren’t “big WRs”, but if offensive success is predicted on jump balls and contested catches I can’t think of two players I’d rather have. That’s not to say we have anyone with that level of talent on the team, but vertical, body control, and attitude can go a long ways. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The only scenario I can see is if you’re choosing between identical performers in every ascpect for the last spot. 

[JustWinPlease]

I'll always take the biggest and fastest guys.

I'd rather have 5 Robert Fosters, than 5 Cole Beasleys.

I think it comes down to Foster, Jones, Brown, Beasley, Williams, Sills and McKenzie.

(The fact that Andre Roberts will probably take a WR spot and never play WR is really annoying...that takes a spot from someone more talented.)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, tomur67 said:

Right now we have 4 wr's in the range of 5' 8-5'9".   Beasley is 5'8", Bolden 5'8", McKenzie 5'8", McCloud 5'9". 

5 wr's in the range of 5'11" - 6'0".   Brown is 5'11", Roberts 5'11", Easley 5'11", Phillips 6;0", Scott 6'0"

4 wr's in the range of 6'2" -6'4".   Foster is 6'2", Jones 6'2". Williams 6'3",  Sills 6'4"

Obviously, talent, motivation, etc. are the most important considerations ,  but can you keep 3 or 4 of the 5'8" on the roster?

 

It's very unlikely they're going to keep 3 or 4 of the 5'8" wr based on talent, not height. 

Victor Bolden couldn't crack a weak-sauce lineup last year and the ST coach who used him is gone.

McKenzie and/or McCloud stay only for ST abilities, and the fact that the Bills signed Andre Roberts to a 2 year deal is probably a clue to the Bills evaluation there.

(BTW some sources have Roberts at 6'0", not that it matters much)

 

Another way of breaking them down here: 

"New additions: John Brown, Cole Beasley, Andre Roberts, Duke Williams

Returning from 2018: Zay Jones, Robert Foster, Isaish Mckenzie, Ray-Ray Mccloud, Da’mari Scott, Cam Phiillips, Victor Bolden, Jr.

First-year wide receivers coach Chad Hall has his work in front of him this spring, also. He’s got three veteran NFL free agents added to the group (Brown, Beasley and Roberts) and an interesting CFL veteran in Duke Williams.

The Bills will have to sort through the various skill sets in their receiving group to find the right five-six-man unit by September.

They have speed wide receivers in Foster, Brown, and McKenzie; a size-matchup in Duke Williams (6-3, 225 pounds); an all-around receiver in Zay Jones, and an accomplished slot receiver in Cole Beasley. What flavor do you want?"

I kind of poo-poo'd the stuff about "Zay Jones won't make the roster", but truth, if Duke Williams shows anything, Beasley and Brown have gas left, and Foster picks up where he left off - he might not. 

 

Looking at it from the contractual point of view:

Andre Roberts contract has $3M guaranteed, so you'd think they intend to keep him (not certain though - Beane has previously shown $3.5M can be chump change to him if there's nothing there). 

John Brown's contract has $10M fully guaranteed, as does Beasley's, and that's moving towards "I consider it real money" for the Beaner.  It would certainly be a serious egg-on-your face to his player evaluation to cut either of them, so if they're healthy, they're on the 53.
 

That leaves maybe 3 spots Foster, Jones, Williams and the rest are competing for.  3 spots for 10 guys.

 

14 minutes ago, JustWinPlease said:

I'll always take the biggest and fastest guys.

I'd rather have 5 Robert Fosters, than 5 Cole Beasleys.

I think it comes down to Foster, Jones, Brown, Beasley, Williams, Sills and McKenzie.

(The fact that Andre Roberts will probably take a WR spot and never play WR is really annoying...that takes a spot from someone more talented.)

 

If that biggest fastest guy can't run good consistent routes and release off the line, you're nuts.

 

The 6th and sometimes 5th WR on an NFL roster is almost always a ST guy who can fill in at WR in case of injury, so I don't know why it should annoy you.  ST talent matters too, as shown by the Bills last year.

[Toesy]

IMO Roberts was a great pickup for the Bills-field position makes a huge difference in the NFL-especially if you have a strong defense.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

You keep whoever gets open and catches the ball.

Yes, it's simple.

[Toesy]

I don't remember a year when I was looking forward to the Bills preseason games this much-all these unknowns with players of seemingly similar ability.

[CaptnCoke11]

I think Duke Williams will make the roster with the last spot.  He’ll play special teams as well. 

[Tsaikotic]

33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's very unlikely they're going to keep 3 or 4 of the 5'8" wr based on talent, not height. 

Victor Bolden couldn't crack a weak-sauce lineup last year and the ST coach who used him is gone.

McKenzie and/or McCloud stay only for ST abilities, and the fact that the Bills signed Andre Roberts to a 2 year deal is probably a clue to the Bills evaluation there.

(BTW some sources have Roberts at 6'0", not that it matters much)

 

Another way of breaking them down here: 

"New additions: John Brown, Cole Beasley, Andre Roberts, Duke Williams

Returning from 2018: Zay Jones, Robert Foster, Isaish Mckenzie, Ray-Ray Mccloud, Da’mari Scott, Cam Phiillips, Victor Bolden, Jr.

First-year wide receivers coach Chad Hall has his work in front of him this spring, also. He’s got three veteran NFL free agents added to the group (Brown, Beasley and Roberts) and an interesting CFL veteran in Duke Williams.

The Bills will have to sort through the various skill sets in their receiving group to find the right five-six-man unit by September.

They have speed wide receivers in Foster, Brown, and McKenzie; a size-matchup in Duke Williams (6-3, 225 pounds); an all-around receiver in Zay Jones, and an accomplished slot receiver in Cole Beasley. What flavor do you want?"

I kind of poo-poo'd the stuff about "Zay Jones won't make the roster", but truth, if Duke Williams shows anything, Beasley and Brown have gas left, and Foster picks up where he left off - he might not. 

 

Looking at it from the contractual point of view:

Andre Roberts contract has $3M guaranteed, so you'd think they intend to keep him (not certain though - Beane has previously shown $3.5M can be chump change to him if there's nothing there). 

John Brown's contract has $10M fully guaranteed, as does Beasley's, and that's moving towards "I consider it real money" for the Beaner.  It would certainly be a serious egg-on-your face to his player evaluation to cut either of them, so if they're healthy, they're on the 53.
 

That leaves maybe 3 spots Foster, Jones, Williams and the rest are competing for.  3 spots for 10 guys.

 

 

If that biggest fastest guy can't run good consistent routes and release off the line, you're nuts.

 

The 6th and sometimes 5th WR on an NFL roster is almost always a ST guy who can fill in at WR in case of injury, so I don't know why it should annoy you.  ST talent matters too, as shown by the Bills last year.

 

the way I usually look at it is this: Bills usually keep 1 or 2 players amongst 3 different positions that primarily play ST - DB, WR and RB...This year I don't think they use the RB spot which leaves WR and DB...I think they'll go with 6 or 7 WR  with 1 of them being Roberts...this means they might not be able to keep the 6 or 7 DB's they sometimes do, they might have to settle with 5 or 6...Roberts can put the team in some great position next season with his return skills...plus he returns both punts and kickoffs which would save from having to put a starting player in those positions...

[BuffaloBill]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

You keep whoever gets open and catches the ball.

 

awesome response

 

[DefenseWins]

I think you take the 6 best WR (hopefully no serious injuries occur)

 

Can Williams adjust to the NFL? Does Zay take one of these spots and run with it?

 

Beasley, Brown, Foster and Roberts assuming they play up to their abilities would seem locks to make the final roster. Sills could go on the Practice Squad if he shows anything.

 

Or maybe one of the other guys steps forward... Time will tell...

 

[LSHMEAB]

I've heard Beane break down the WR position as a whole and refer to it as a basketball team. Something along the lines of ideally you'd like to have guys able to do x,y, and z.

 

At the end of the day, the best players should make the roster, but I do believe they put some stock into a "balanced" group.

[Kirby Jackson]

The game has changed IMO. The days of the big physical receivers are over. The rules have taken away the physicality of the DBs. The name of the game now is separation and speed. Antonio Brown and OBJ are the new prototypes.

[Tcali]

2 hours ago, tomur67 said:

Right now we have 4 wr's in the range of 5' 8-5'9".   Beasley is 5'8", Bolden 5'8", McKenzie 5'8", McCloud 5'9". 

5 wr's in the range of 5'11" - 6'0".   Brown is 5'11", Roberts 5'11", Easley 5'11", Phillips 6;0", Scott 6'0"

4 wr's in the range of 6'2" -6'4".   Foster is 6'2", Jones 6'2". Williams 6'3",  Sills 6'4"

Obviously, talent, motivation, etc. are the most important considerations ,  but can you keep 3 or 4 of the 5'8" on the roster?

none

[without a drought]

How much should it matter?

 

The correct response is none.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

Yes, it's simple.

 

With the caveat, I think last year should have been a red flag to McBeane that the guys who look best in preseason, may not be the guys who are best when it counts.

 

42 minutes ago, Tcali said:

none

 

29 minutes ago, without a drought said:

How much should it matter?

 

The correct response is none.

 

If you guys mean the correct response is keep NONE of the 5'8" WR, including Beasley, McKensie, and McCloud - wouldn't that mean Beane's player e v a l is horridly incorrect?

 

[offyourocker]

Is 5’11” to 6’ really a range?

[prissythecat]

8 minutes ago, offyourocker said:

Is 5’11” to 6’ really a range?

 

 

Shhh, don’t tell the OP that the difference between those two heights  one inch .

 

[formerlyofCtown]

3 hours ago, Tsaikotic said:

From what I've read, Beane and McD originally were trying to go with big possession receivers like KB...they ended up changing the plan after watching how Allen plays, so now they want basically what Bangarang said "guys with speed that can get open and catch the ball"...I think they'll go with 1 or maybe 2 WR's in the KB style, like Duke on the roster right now...although I have never seen Duke play so I really have no idea if he can move and get open or not

He is always open, even when covered.

[without a drought]

48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

With the caveat, I think last year should have been a red flag to McBeane that the guys who look best in preseason, may not be the guys who are best when it counts.

 

 

 

If you guys mean the correct response is keep NONE of the 5'8" WR, including Beasley, McKensie, and McCloud - wouldn't that mean Beane's player e v a l is horridly incorrect?

 

No I actually mean, when you start chasing size in receivers versus talent, it gets you in trouble.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 hours ago, Tsaikotic said:

the way I usually look at it is this: Bills usually keep 1 or 2 players amongst 3 different positions that primarily play ST - DB, WR and RB...This year I don't think they use the RB spot which leaves WR and DB...I think they'll go with 6 or 7 WR  with 1 of them being Roberts...this means they might not be able to keep the 6 or 7 DB's they sometimes do, they might have to settle with 5 or 6...Roberts can put the team in some great position next season with his return skills...plus he returns both punts and kickoffs which would save from having to put a starting player in those positions...

 

Several times last season, we wound up playing a DB out of position because of not dressing enough

McDermott is a ST [edit: I meant secondary] coach at heart.  Unless the WR coach has been puckering up to the "Blarney Stone" and can make a persuasive case, I just can't see him shorting the DB spots on the roster in favor of WR.

 

Roberts looks like a great add at a position of need.  He's been durable - played 16 games last 3 seasons - but man, at 31?  Can he keep it up?

[White Linen]

What I think would be interesting is to see what the trends are with the CB market.  We all remember when tall receivers started becoming all the rage and that was because they were all such a mismatch for smaller corners.  Then corners started getting taller and then the trend to smaller WR's became the successful ones.  I'm not sure where we are at now with the numbers - but I think I'd try to stay in the opposite trend of CB's.  

[Phil The Thrill]

4 hours ago, tomur67 said:

Right now we have 4 wr's in the range of 5' 8-5'9".   Beasley is 5'8", Bolden 5'8", McKenzie 5'8", McCloud 5'9". 

5 wr's in the range of 5'11" - 6'0".   Brown is 5'11", Roberts 5'11", Easley 5'11", Phillips 6;0", Scott 6'0"

4 wr's in the range of 6'2" -6'4".   Foster is 6'2", Jones 6'2". Williams 6'3",  Sills 6'4"

Obviously, talent, motivation, etc. are the most important considerations ,  but can you keep 3 or 4 of the 5'8" on the roster?

 

You make a very good point here.  I remember Brandon Beane talking about how they look at WR in camp last year.  He said the goal is to have a group that compliments themselves and that you don’t want to have the same types of WR on your roster.

 

It really make you wonder if the bigger WR’s on the roster like Williams or Sills might have an advantage over a position group that already has a few smaller receivers  

20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Several times last season, we wound up playing a DB out of position because of not dressing enough

McDermott is a ST coach at heart.  Unless the WR coach has been puckering up to the "Blarney Stone" and can make a persuasive case, I just can't see him shorting the DB spots on the roster in favor of WR.

 

Roberts looks like a great add at a position of need.  He's been durable - played 16 games last 3 seasons - but man, at 31?  Can he keep it up?

 

I would agree.  I remember last year everyone assumed that the Bills would keep 6, and sure enough they kept 5 on opening day.  I can’t see them keeping 6 WR’s on the roster and some tough cuts will need to be made

[Punching Bag]

26 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

He is always open, even when covered.

He is right in what film I have seen.  Reminds me of what they said on Hogan - always open.

[Simon Says]

3 hours ago, JustWinPlease said:

I'll always take the biggest and fastest guys.

I'd rather have 5 Robert Fosters, than 5 Cole Beasleys.

I think it comes down to Foster, Jones, Brown, Beasley, Williams, Sills and McKenzie.

(The fact that Andre Roberts will probably take a WR spot and never play WR is really annoying...that takes a spot from someone more talented.)

Roberts has like 250 catches in his career so he is a guy with receiving ability

3 hours ago, JustWinPlease said:

I'll always take the biggest and fastest guys.

I'd rather have 5 Robert Fosters, than 5 Cole Beasleys.

I think it comes down to Foster, Jones, Brown, Beasley, Williams, Sills and McKenzie.

(The fact that Andre Roberts will probably take a WR spot and never play WR is really annoying...that takes a spot from someone more talented.)

I think it is too early to give Sills a roster spot

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

5 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

The game has changed IMO. The days of the big physical receivers are over. The rules have taken away the physicality of the DBs. The name of the game now is separation and speed. Antonio Brown and OBJ are the new prototypes.

For the most part, I agree with you.  The biggest exception is down close in the red zone.  Space is restrictive and throws over the top or the corner fade are still major weapons in the end zone.  

[Toesy]

Maybe somebody mentioned this but both Williams and Sills show that ability to climb up and catch the ball up high-so even though they are only listed 1-2 inches taller than Jones they play taller-this is a big deal because very few corners are tall. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, without a drought said:

No I actually mean, when you start chasing size in receivers versus talent, it gets you in trouble.

 

I agree with that!  

[Kirby Jackson]

50 minutes ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

For the most part, I agree with you.  The biggest exception is down close in the red zone.  Space is restrictive and throws over the top or the corner fade are still major weapons in the end zone.  

I don’t know that’s a low percentage play. If you look at the TD totals last year Antonio Brown, Davante Adams and Tyreke Hill were the top 3 WRs. All of them are separation guys.

[Augie]

Height is one of many factors. We need to build a WR corps that is a nice blend of all the critical qualities. I’m just glad that it has to be better than last year (TE’s included). The question is........who wins the competition? Draft is over (loved it!), can’t wait for the games to begin! 

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, Bangarang said:

You keep whoever gets open and catches the ball.

 

 

This is pretty much it.

 

It's nice if you have one guy who can jump and catch a fade, but some shorter guys do that well with body positioning and blocking out. You don't absolutely need even one tall guy, but it doesn't hurt to have guys with a variety of talents and abilities.

[Buffalo Junction]

3 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I don’t know that’s a low percentage play. If you look at the TD totals last year Antonio Brown, Davante Adams and Tyreke Hill were the top 3 WRs. All of them are separation guys.

Adams is a freak at jump balls. The other factor to consider is how he and Brown manage to catch balls outside of the field of play while keeping their feet in bounds. They have elite concentration and body control. 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Adams is a freak at jump balls. The other factor to consider is how he and Brown manage to catch balls outside of the field of play while keeping their feet in bounds. They have elite concentration and body control. 

All of this sounds like a justification for why they need to be taller. Separation matters 

[Buffalo Junction]

38 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

All of this sounds like a justification for why they need to be taller. Separation matters 

Taller? How? AB is 5’10”. Davante Adams is 6’1”. OBJ (who I mentioned earlier) is 5’11”... All three reliably win contested catches. I agree that separation matters. I’m saying that body control coupled with attitude and vertical matter more than height. Literally, guys with average to short height can out perform a lot of the tall guys on contested catches if they possess other elite traits. 

 

Just for future reference... I’ll put out a prediction for future reference. Deebo Samuel and AJ Brown will be better than DK Metcalf and Hakeem Butler with contested catches and YAC. AJ and Deebo own the ball... Attitude and body control. 

[NoSaint]

16 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

Yes, this. But I think you do need to look at a diversity of skills. If there’s someone who can consistently win jump balls, you might value that over two smaller guys who have similar play styles

 

Meh. It’s a matchup league and some games that may help, others it will hurt when the opponent has a corner that’s a bit slower but super physical and good at 50-50 balls but would’ve lost to a shiftier wr. Ultimately from what I’ve seen is that max talent put in good positions wins much more than forcing your GM to fill precise roles. 

 

you stack talent and slightly look towards matchups in the division for tie breaks like that.