Whaley is an idiot.

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

You can't coach 50 TD's and left handed passes. The kid is a stud and would have been a stud anywhere. There's no reason to suspend belief in order to suit a narrative.

 

If Josh is the real deal, it won't matter.

 

 

Left-handed passes, no.

 

50 TDs, sure you can. Look at what a bunch of coaching did for Aaron Rodgers, who was pretty awful his first two seasons in Green Bay till McCarthy put him in "Quarterback Camp," changed his mechanics and developed him.

 

Also helps, mind you, if you put him in an offense surrounded by top-flight weapons and a really good line.

 

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/06/13/themmqb-exit-interview-bob-mcginn-green-bay-packers-milwaukee-journal-sentinel-nfl-beat-writer

 

The MMQB: "You documented how fortunate it was that Aaron Rodgers didn’t have to play the first couple of years—he just wasn’t ready.

 

McGinn: “He was a very poor player here for his first two summers and regular-season practices. Fortunately for him, and he knows that down deep, he didn’t have to play early. His delivery was a mess, bad body language, he didn’t know how to deal with teammates. He learned so much from Brett Favre on how to in some ways be one of the guys and relate, and he became much more of a leader. He was really poor and how many great players have ever had a start like that? Not that many. A lot of scouts look at that exhibition tape those first two years and he was a little bit better the third year, but not to any degree, and then he just really developed. He lost a lot of close games in ’08, but by ’09 he was playing great and by 2010 he was maybe the best in the business."

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

The fact it was discussed doesn't make it true.  All the scouts worked for Whaley.   The entire scouting process was under Whaley's control. 

 

Why would McD make the actual picks?  The supposition defies logic.  

 

 

 

 

And yet it happened.

 

And the idea that it defies logic defies thought.

 

There are plenty of veepy guys throughout the world of business who directly control the people under them and yet still do what the guys over them say.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Thurman#1

[AustinDan]

McD worked for years under Andy Reid.

He should know as well as anyone how Andy Reid thinks and how well Reid can evaluate QB's.

 

When KC called asking to jump all the way from 27 to 10 he should have known that he was targeting a QB and that Mahomes was that QB.

McD should have known that if Reid wanted Mahomes and was willing to deal those draft picks to get him that Reid would only do that for a special QB prospect.

McD should have thought, my team needs a QB and if Andy Reid wants this guy so bad i should just take him instead of taking the trade.

 

McD was in charge of that draft for the Bills, Whaley was dead man drafting.

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

4 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Whaley is an idiot for passing on Mahomes but McD is a genius for drafting Tre White...

 

Do people really believe Whaley was calling the shots in a draft where he would immediately be fired upon its completion?

 

The article makes it clear that Whaley orchestrated the trade. He might not have been behind all the picks, but he seemed to be the one to pull the trigger to move back.

 

[billieve420]

1 hour ago, BillsRdue said:

 

The article makes it clear that Whaley orchestrated the trade. He might not have been behind all the picks, but he seemed to be the one to pull the trigger to move back.

 

 

I believe it was McDermott’s relationship with Reid which facilitated the trade. Whaley was nothing more than the errand boy whose fate was already sealed by that time and reason why they cleaned house after the draft.

 

That press conference after they fired Rex ended any hopes he had of a future with his organization. I believe they gave McDermott more power than most 1st time head coaches normally get when he took the job. It wasn’t a secret that Whaley was out after the draft.

 

https://www.theringer.com/2017/5/4/16045442/nfl-buffalo-bills-gm-doug-whaley-fired-sean-mcdermott-d87e027bae86-d87e027bae86

[BillsfaninSB]

I find it difficult to target any one person for missing Mahommes.   It was a time of transition.  Easy for things to get missed.  I was lukewarm on Mahommes and Watson and didn’t think much of it at the time when we didn’t draft them. 

 

If anything, blame ownership for not getting the new GM in place prior to the draft.  But maybe that was out their control.

 

i think the lesson here is don’t trade down a top 10 pick.  Also, I think the mantra of always picking BPA in the top 10 - 15 is ridiculous.  You understand your biggest weakness and address it.   Keep your pick and get the guy who can make a great impact where you need it.  Unfortunately, the Bills have a lot of places to get much better this year. 

[Zerovoltz]

2 minutes ago, BillsfaninSB said:

I find it difficult to target any one person for missing Mahommes.   It was a time of transition.  Easy for things to get missed.  I was lukewarm on Mahommes and Watson and didn’t think much of it at the time when we didn’t draft them. 

 

If anything, blame ownership for not getting the new GM in place prior to the draft.  But maybe that was out their control.

 

i think the lesson here is don’t trade down a top 10 pick.  Also, I think the mantra of always picking BPA in the top 10 - 15 is ridiculous.  You understand your biggest weakness and address it.   Keep your pick and get the guy who can make a great impact where you need it.  Unfortunately, the Bills have a lot of places to get much better this year. 

 

I don't think that is the lesson.  Under the circumstances....when you have a lame duck GM....and a new HC only on the job a short time prior to the draft...you probably don't have the best organized draft board....BUT forget that for a moment...they traded out of 10 because the powers that be drafting weren't sold on what was there at 10 anymore than they were sold on what was at 27.  That is a GREAT time to trade out....and given that you got Tre White....who was as good as Lattimore means you had made the right choice as far as knowing you could get equal talent later AND add some draft capital. 

 

More is actually made of this than need be...the lesson that needed to be learned was by Mr. Pegula....and that was don't stumble and staggar your way through a firing/hiring cycle like he did.  I think he probably learned that lesson.  Going and getting Josh Allen also showed the team, once the whole staff was together and on the same page...was all about addressing the QB situation because the 2018 draft and events/trades leading to it...were all about fixing your QB spot.  

 

If Mahomes was just an average guy....or even just a good QB in the top 10...NO ONE would ever bring this up...and if they did, it would be to heap praise on McD (and maybe Whaley) for astutely getting extra picks AND identifiying a great DB at pick 27.  

 

If you have identified a talent that you can't get later, when you have a top 10 pick...you keep the pick and select that player....if you have identified players outside the top 10, top 20...and you can get trade out and get them while adding draft capital....you do that. 

[JimKellyTryouts]

3 hours ago, ricko1112 said:

Let's pass judgement after we see what Mahommes does this season. I'm sure there have been plenty of QBs that had a good (in this case awesome) early season and then... RG3 and Krap come to mind, but I'm sure there are many, many others.

 

I'm going to need oven mitts for your scorching hot take. RGIII and Kap's successes are nowhere near compared to what Mahomes accomplished this year with his arm.

Edited April 22, 2019 by JimKellyTryouts

[Punching Bag]

9 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

I’m not even going to bemoan that he passed on Mahomes but it never ceases to amaze when I hear him say publicly that he didn’t know. It’s almost comical.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2019/story/_/id/26561055/drafting-patrick-mahomes-how-chiefs-outmaneuvered-nfl?platform=amp

 

There is the ownership input which many have criticized.  I think it is a good thing which can prevents things like Bush trade or a GM trying to save his job at any cost even if it costs in long run.  And evidently 3 other teams did not "know" enough to be willing to trade with Bills or a team ahead of Bills if Bills were unwilling to trade.

 

 

That isn't a scenario the Chiefs want to contemplate. They have a long-standing organizational policy that trading a future first-round pick requires approval of ownership.

In this case, Hunt was eager to approve.

"It's not a decision that I took lightly," Hunt said. "But with all things considered, it was not a hard decision. The chance to get a quarterback who can be a franchise quarterback for the Chiefs in the future made it a pretty easy decision."

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, AustinDan said:

 

 

McD worked for years under Andy Reid.

He should know as well as anyone how Andy Reid thinks and how well Reid can evaluate QB's.

 

When KC called asking to jump all the way from 27 to 10 he should have known that he was targeting a QB and that Mahomes was that QB.

McD should have known that if Reid wanted Mahomes and was willing to deal those draft picks to get him that Reid would only do that for a special QB prospect.

McD should have thought, my team needs a QB and if Andy Reid wants this guy so bad i should just take him instead of taking the trade.

 

McD was in charge of that draft for the Bills, Whaley was dead man drafting.

 

 

Yes, McDermott made the pick.

 

But Reid doesn't have all that great a record of picking QBs. He spent about half his career with Vick and Alex Smith. He's never really been known as a great QB drafter. He's a great QB developer. 

 

And there's no particular reason to swoop in on a great QB developer's potential draft pick and draft him instead and likely not develop him as well as Reid himself would have.

 

 

4 hours ago, BillsRdue said:

 

The article makes it clear that Whaley orchestrated the trade. He might not have been behind all the picks, but he seemed to be the one to pull the trigger to move back.

 

 

 

I'd love to see where the article "makes it clear" that Whaley orchestrated the trade.

 

All I can see is that he was on the phone. And that ain't even close to "orchestrating." Point man and boss are not the same thing.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Bill from NYC]

10 hours ago, Gugny said:

An idiot who built a top 5 NFL defense, only to be torn down by Kim Pegula hiring Rex Ryan.

 

And everyone on earth was surprised that the Chiefs traded up to get Mahomes.  Don't act like it was a given.  Far from it.

Whaley was just awful. He had zero discipline in the draft and overpaid mediocre players. He mortgaged the future to draft a wide receiver, this with no quarterback. The day Whaley walked out the door was a great day for this franchise. We can pretend all day that he didn't suck but he did, big time.

Oh, and if he was any good, he would have a job right now as an NFL GM. I doubt if any team will ever be stupid enough to make that mistake ever again.

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

I'd love to see where the article "makes it clear" that Whaley orchestrated the trade.

 

All I can see is that he was on the phone. And that ain't even close to "orchestrating." Point man and boss are not the same thing.

 

It doesn't.  It is clear it is some poster believed and wanted to blame him for.

[Gugny]

7 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Whaley was just awful. He had zero discipline in the draft and overpaid mediocre players. He mortgaged the future to draft a wide receiver, this with no quarterback. The day Whaley walked out the door was a great day for this franchise. We can pretend all day that he didn't suck but he did, big time.

Oh, and if he was any good, he would have a job right now as an NFL GM. I doubt if any team will ever be stupid enough to make that mistake ever again.

 

He definitely made mistakes; I don't even think he would deny that.  But, as I said earlier, he had very little chance to succeed.  People can worship Ralph Wilson all they want for keeping the Bills in Buffalo.  The fact is, however, that he was not a good owner.  And by the time Whaley came into the picture, Wilson didn't even know who he was.  The organization was being run by complete idiots.  Then, as if that wasn't bad enough, new owners come in and neuter him, throw him to the media wolves and completely destroy the on-field product, which WAS headed in the right direction.  There's not a GM on earth who could have come out of Whaley's situation looking good.

[Boca BIlls]

You guys realize Tipster hasn't really responded to this thread since...

[Jpsredemption]

The Mahomes deal is in McDermott. Don’t for a second absolve him of that. 

[Bill from NYC]

6 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

He definitely made mistakes; I don't even think he would deny that.  But, as I said earlier, he had very little chance to succeed.  People can worship Ralph Wilson all they want for keeping the Bills in Buffalo.  The fact is, however, that he was not a good owner.  And by the time Whaley came into the picture, Wilson didn't even know who he was.  The organization was being run by complete idiots.  Then, as if that wasn't bad enough, new owners come in and neuter him, throw him to the media wolves and completely destroy the on-field product, which WAS headed in the right direction.  There's not a GM on earth who could have come out of Whaley's situation looking good.

You make good points, but Whaley's mistakes were huge.

 

Before this article, I assigned all of the blame to McDermott for botching things up wrt Mahomes. Now it seems as if Whaley had a large part in this, and it doesn't surprise me.

[KDIGGZ]

The real head scratcher here is that the Bills passed on a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues whose AMAZING passing numbers made you wonder if it would translate to the NFL... and INSTEAD 1 year later took a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues who had terrible passing stats. Look at Mahomes' college stats vs Allen's and it's clear who they should have bet on if they were going to try and develop someone with a big arm. Mahomes had as many passing yards as Allen's senior season in 3 games!

[Gugny]

Just now, WRONG JOSH said:

The real head scratcher here is that the Bills passed on a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues whose AMAZING passing numbers made you wonder if it would translate to the NFL... and INSTEAD 1 year later took a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues who had terrible passing stats. Look at Mahomes' college stats vs Allen's and it's clear who they should have bet on if they were going to try and develop someone with a big arm. Mahomes had as many passing yards as Allen's senior season in 3 games!

 

You ever see Tim Tebow's college stats?  Or Vince Young's?  Or Johnny Manziel's?  Or Ryan Leaf's?  Etc., etc., etc.  Take your tired narrative somewhere else, man.

[Punching Bag]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

You ever see Tim Tebow's college stats?  Or Vince Young's?  Or Johnny Manziel's?  Or Ryan Leaf's?  Etc., etc., etc.  Take your tired narrative somewhere else, man.

 

There are college players who cannot make transition and Rosen appears to be one but Allen is NOT.  Gungy is right take your campaign to Cardinals board and try to convince them to keep him.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, WRONG JOSH said:

The real head scratcher here is that the Bills passed on a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues whose AMAZING passing numbers made you wonder if it would translate to the NFL... and INSTEAD 1 year later took a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues who had terrible passing stats. Look at Mahomes' college stats vs Allen's and it's clear who they should have bet on if they were going to try and develop someone with a big arm. Mahomes had as many passing yards as Allen's senior season in 3 games!

Ive said that before. But they know their team better than us. It's possible they didn't feel like the offensive staff was in position to develop a QB. They were right about that. Mahomes would be on his 2nd offense already.

 

 

[Billzgobowlin]

I don't fault Whaley on Mahomes but I do fault him for EJ Manuel.  You can bet that was his pick as well as the draft capital for Watkins.

[Rc2catch]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

"How can you not respect a guy who swings for the fences?"

 

Um, with great ease? With very little effort and for obvious reasons? I could come up with more.

 

Swinging for the fences and striking out isn't something a decision-maker should be cheered for. A home run hitter who leads the league in HRs and strikeouts? Maybe. But an executive who leaves the team with a career record under .500? Not hardly. The Watkins trade was a swing for the fences, but it looked awful from minute one.

 

For execs, swinging for the fences means squat. Building an excellent team is what you should be judged on. He didn't do that.

 

And again, that front four you're going on about were all Nix gets.

I would disagree. He built a very good team minus quarterback. If he could of landed one he’d still be here. He made bold moves to improve the team. I’ll take that any day over a GM scared to make the wrong move and stands around with his hands in his pockets all offseason. Every GM job in the league hinges on having a quarterback and that was his downfall. 

[KDIGGZ]

19 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said:

Ive said that before. But they know their team better than us. It's possible they didn't feel like the offensive staff was in position to develop a QB. They were right about that. Mahomes would be on his 2nd offense already.

 

 

An intelligent response, thank you

[Bill from NYC]

18 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

I would disagree. He built a very good team minus quarterback. If he could of landed one he’d still be here. He made bold moves to improve the team. I’ll take that any day over a GM scared to make the wrong move and stands around with his hands in his pockets all offseason. Every GM job in the league hinges on having a quarterback and that was his downfall. 

The Bills were minus not just the quarterback. They were also minus precious cap space and draft picks.

 

Whaley had the discipline of a 7 year old alone in a candy store.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

10 hours ago, jahnyc said:

It is hard to forget the Whaley era when the NFL Network rebroadcasts recent drafts, including the 2014 draft where we traded up to the fourth pick in the first round to select Sammy Watkins, giving up our first round pick in 2015.  We could have selected Mack or Mike Evans with that pick, or stayed at our original spot and selected Beckhan or Donald.  In the second round, Whaley selected Cyrus Kouandijo.  Still painful.

 

Exactly. All the Whaley defenders like to gloss over his absolutely ABYSMAL draft record in favor of his UDFA/FA pickups.

 

47 minutes ago, WRONG JOSH said:

The real head scratcher here is that the Bills passed on a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues whose AMAZING passing numbers made you wonder if it would translate to the NFL... and INSTEAD 1 year later took a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues who had terrible passing stats. Look at Mahomes' college stats vs Allen's and it's clear who they should have bet on if they were going to try and develop someone with a big arm. Mahomes had as many passing yards as Allen's senior season in 3 games!

 

Hey, welcome back little buddy!

 

How's "right josh" looking these days?

 

[quincy]

From the 2017 draft, 4 out of the 6 chosen are on the roster. (No Peterman or Vallejo)

 

Tre White and Matt Milano, I am sure everyone is happy with.

 

Question marks remain over Dawkins and Zay.

 

Dawkins was drafted as a Guard if I recall correctly. Is he truly our franchise LT?

 

If Beane decides to draft back to back OL in the 2019 draft with the 1st 2 picks (e.g. J. Williams and Risner), will he even start?

 

Beasley appears to be an immediate upgrade over Zay in the slot, some people believe he won't make the final 53 man squad.

 

We could start 2019 with only 3 of the 6 picks from the 2017 draft, irrespective of who was calling the shots.

 

What I would like is the the buck to stop with Beane. Friendship or not the GM should be higher up the pecking order than the Head Coach.

[Bill from NYC]

5 minutes ago, quincy said:

 

Tre White and Matt Milano, I am sure everyone is happy with.

 

This imo is not true. It is about the team winning, not about having a "good" corner for a few years. The Bills did not have a good quarterback. They walked away from an already great one as well as another very promising qb (Watson) and drafted a cornerback. There can be no justification in this.

 

Stupidity like this is reminiscent of the Levy/Jauron years.....an almost unmatched era of idiocy.

[row_33]

who? 

 

 

[peterpan]

12 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Whaley is an idiot for passing on Mahomes but McD is a genius for drafting Tre White...

 

Do people really believe Whaley was calling the shots in a draft where he would immediately be fired upon its completion?

Yes... I'm told as much when I say this is McD and Companies third draft this year.  Can't tell you how often I'm told it's only the second. 

[quincy]

6 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

This imo is not true. It is about the team winning, not about having a "good" corner for a few years. The Bills did not have a good quarterback. They walked away from an already great one as well as another very promising qb (Watson) and drafted a cornerback. There can be no justification in this.

 

Stupidity like this is reminiscent of the Levy/Jauron years.....an almost unmatched era of idiocy.

 

I wanted the Bills to draft Watson. I thought it was what we needed, a player who I thought would bring a national exposure to the Bills and solve the quarterback problem.

 

We have the earlier post saying after Trubisky and Mahomes were gone, the Texans owner instructed the GM to get Watson.

Pegula could have given similar instructions. Why did he cede so much power to a rookie head coach? 

 

In time I think McDermott will face further heat regarding the 2017 draft, as time elapses it will get worse especially if Zay and Dawkins continue to be average at best.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

47 minutes ago, quincy said:

From the 2017 draft, 4 out of the 6 chosen are on the roster. (No Peterman or Vallejo)

 

Tre White and Matt Milano, I am sure everyone is happy with.

 

Question marks remain over Dawkins and Zay.

 

Dawkins was drafted as a Guard if I recall correctly. Is he truly our franchise LT?

 

If Beane decides to draft back to back OL in the 2019 draft with the 1st 2 picks (e.g. J. Williams and Risner), will he even start?

 

Beasley appears to be an immediate upgrade over Zay in the slot, some people believe he won't make the final 53 man squad.

 

We could start 2019 with only 3 of the 6 picks from the 2017 draft, irrespective of who was calling the shots.

 

What I would like is the the buck to stop with Beane. Friendship or not the GM should be higher up the pecking order than the Head Coach.

Not sure why people question Dawk. That was a solid draft. 

[JinxedBill1]

[87168]

pathetic thread. never understood why some people are so obsessed with the man. move on. he has. if he was as incompetent and horrid as people say, then why continue to post about the man? he's now 2 years removed from the organization. just weird.

[hondo in seattle]

13 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

 

The real idiot is the people that think Whaley was calling any shots in this Draft. 

 

Dude, why do you have to be offensive?

 

I think Whaley was calling the shots and several people who know me don't think I'm an idiot.

I don't think McD had the time or resources to control the draft.  He was immersed in his new job and didn't have a bunch of scouts on his staff.  

Edited April 22, 2019 by hondo in seattle

[Rc2catch]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

The Bills were minus not just the quarterback. They were also minus precious cap space and draft picks.

 

Whaley had the discipline of a 7 year old alone in a candy store.

Same can be said for New Orleans.. Dallas.. Plenty of teams are constantly at the cap and give out bad contracts and reworking deals to get under. Plenty of teams throw away future picks on questionable moves. The saints traded up to grab Davenport or whatever his name was last year and gave away a first to do it. I’m not a Whaley homer or nothing but people judge him unfairly was the whole point of my original post. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

The winding road of our franchise history is literally littered with poor decision making, personnel moves and flawed organizational direction plans. If we took the time to highlight each of those architects and enabling folks who were involved, we wouldn't then have time to do another mock draft, criticize the analysis of who will be drafted at #9, or figure out the for sure wins and losses in our recently released schedule!! And that, at this time of year, would be a travesty of epic proportions.

 

However, I haven't seen a Pats themed thread posted anytime within the past 48 hours, so I'm good either way.

Edited April 22, 2019 by NoHuddleKelly12

[MAJBobby]

7 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Dude, why do you have to be offensive?

 

I think Whaley was calling the shots and several people who know me don't think I'm an idiot.

I don't think McD had the time or resources to control the draft.  He was immersed in his new job and didn't have a bunch of scouts on his staff.  

Ahhh the typical I am ok to call someone an idiot, but then again when it is thrown right back in my face I get offended.

[Bill from NYC]

6 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

Same can be said for New Orleans.. Dallas.. Plenty of teams are constantly at the cap and give out bad contracts and reworking deals to get under. Plenty of teams throw away future picks on questionable moves. The saints traded up to grab Davenport or whatever his name was last year and gave away a first to do it. I’m not a Whaley homer or nothing but people judge him unfairly was the whole point of my original post. 

I hear ya bro and I don't want to appear harsh with you.

 

If Whaley produced wins, I would soften my tone wrt his ability as a GM.  That said, I doubt that he will ever again work in that capacity.

 

Jmo.

[Rc2catch]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

I hear ya bro and I don't want to appear harsh with you.

 

If Whaley produced wins, I would soften my tone wrt his ability as a GM.  That said, I doubt that he will ever again work in that capacity.

 

Jmo.

I agree his time here ended in failure and he deservedly lost his job, but it was an impossible situation for any GM to succeed in. Just a little shocking so many people hate him to me. 

[ricko1112]

7 hours ago, JimKellyTryouts said:

 

I'm going to need oven mitts for your scorching hot take. RGIII and Kap's successes are nowhere near compared to what Mahomes accomplished this year with his arm.

That's why I made the distinction between RG3's and Kap's good seasons and Mahomes awesome season. That way no one would get confused...

 

The point was that those 2 were heralded to be the next great QBs in the NFL, yet they fell off the Earth because neither was nearly as good as many people thought. Therefore, we should wait to see if Mahomes can duplicate his success.  

[Freddie's Dead]

Whoever ran that draft for the Bills was an idiot.  We handed the Chiefs their franchise QB for peanuts.  We swapped down to 27, got their 3rd pick at 91, and their 2019 first round pick.  Don't give me draft points and all that crap.  We needed more picks to let them move up 17 spots in the first round.  And if the Bills didn't know that the Chiefs were picking Mahomes, then shame on them.  The Bills ***** up, clearly.