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Tipster19

Whaley is an idiot.

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2 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

plenty of Red Raider 'Air Raid' system QBs put up numbers in college and flopped in the NFL (Colt McCoy).

 

An earlier poster noted Reid tailored a system to Mahomes, and has the clout and background to get the most out of QBs.

 

Mahomes and Reid is a terrific match that maximizes both. It's wonder twin powers joined together.

 

I'm pretty happy with the Bills future despite this flub. KC was already loaded on offense for Alex Smith. Josh Allen is the right guy to grow with the Bills IMO.

Yep, I was completely uninterested in Mahomes coming into the draft. I thought he had bust written all over him. I’ll also admit to being completely wrong. No one should talk as if he were a sure thing. Keep in mind it was common knowledge that the 2018 QB class would be one of the strongest in years. Waiting a year to draft a franchise QB didn’t seem like a bad idea if you weren’t sold on Mahomes in 2017. 

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3 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

McD was calling the shots that draft, not Whaley.  Been discussed many times before.

Even I knew that...

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2 hours ago, ganesh said:

Give credit to Andy Reid for coaching up  Mahommes in  the NFL.  For all you might know, Mahommes may not have flourished in Buffalo.  Remember he was projected as the 3rd or 4th best QB that required a kong time holding the clipboard.  

Let's pass judgement after we see what Mahommes does this season. I'm sure there have been plenty of QBs that had a good (in this case awesome) early season and then... RG3 and Krap come to mind, but I'm sure there are many, many others.

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2 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Let’s not forget that it was the front office’s ‘twin devils of deception’ (Brandon and Whaley) lobbying to not let Rex out of the building.  

 

Thanks, and a tip of the hat to Johnnie Cochran for that gem of a phrase.

 

I will never believe that Whaley, in any way, endorsed Rex Ryan coming on as HC.  Rex's presence instantly negated nearly everything Whaley had done with the defense.  And it showed.  Thanks, Kim!!

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Think this has been talked about a ton in the past. 

Lets move forward.  

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

You can't coach 50 TD's and left handed passes. The kid is a stud and would have been a stud anywhere. There's no reason to suspend belief in order to suit a narrative.

 

If Josh is the real deal, it won't matter.

 

 

Left-handed passes, no.

 

50 TDs, sure you can. Look at what a bunch of coaching did for Aaron Rodgers, who was pretty awful his first two seasons in Green Bay till McCarthy put him in "Quarterback Camp," changed his mechanics and developed him.

 

Also helps, mind you, if you put him in an offense surrounded by top-flight weapons and a really good line.

 

https://www.si.com/mmqb/2017/06/13/themmqb-exit-interview-bob-mcginn-green-bay-packers-milwaukee-journal-sentinel-nfl-beat-writer

 

The MMQB: "You documented how fortunate it was that Aaron Rodgers didn’t have to play the first couple of years—he just wasn’t ready.

 

McGinn: “He was a very poor player here for his first two summers and regular-season practices. Fortunately for him, and he knows that down deep, he didn’t have to play early. His delivery was a mess, bad body language, he didn’t know how to deal with teammates. He learned so much from Brett Favre on how to in some ways be one of the guys and relate, and he became much more of a leader. He was really poor and how many great players have ever had a start like that? Not that many. A lot of scouts look at that exhibition tape those first two years and he was a little bit better the third year, but not to any degree, and then he just really developed. He lost a lot of close games in ’08, but by ’09 he was playing great and by 2010 he was maybe the best in the business."

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

The fact it was discussed doesn't make it true.  All the scouts worked for Whaley.   The entire scouting process was under Whaley's control. 

 

Why would McD make the actual picks?  The supposition defies logic.  

 

 

 

 

And yet it happened.

 

And the idea that it defies logic defies thought.

 

There are plenty of veepy guys throughout the world of business who directly control the people under them and yet still do what the guys over them say.

Edited by Thurman#1

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McD worked for years under Andy Reid.

He should know as well as anyone how Andy Reid thinks and how well Reid can evaluate QB's.

 

When KC called asking to jump all the way from 27 to 10 he should have known that he was targeting a QB and that Mahomes was that QB.

McD should have known that if Reid wanted Mahomes and was willing to deal those draft picks to get him that Reid would only do that for a special QB prospect.

McD should have thought, my team needs a QB and if Andy Reid wants this guy so bad i should just take him instead of taking the trade.

 

McD was in charge of that draft for the Bills, Whaley was dead man drafting.

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4 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Whaley is an idiot for passing on Mahomes but McD is a genius for drafting Tre White...

 

Do people really believe Whaley was calling the shots in a draft where he would immediately be fired upon its completion?

 

The article makes it clear that Whaley orchestrated the trade. He might not have been behind all the picks, but he seemed to be the one to pull the trigger to move back.

 

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1 hour ago, BillsRdue said:

 

The article makes it clear that Whaley orchestrated the trade. He might not have been behind all the picks, but he seemed to be the one to pull the trigger to move back.

 

 

I believe it was McDermott’s relationship with Reid which facilitated the trade. Whaley was nothing more than the errand boy whose fate was already sealed by that time and reason why they cleaned house after the draft.

 

That press conference after they fired Rex ended any hopes he had of a future with his organization. I believe they gave McDermott more power than most 1st time head coaches normally get when he took the job. It wasn’t a secret that Whaley was out after the draft.

 

https://www.theringer.com/2017/5/4/16045442/nfl-buffalo-bills-gm-doug-whaley-fired-sean-mcdermott-d87e027bae86-d87e027bae86

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I find it difficult to target any one person for missing Mahommes.   It was a time of transition.  Easy for things to get missed.  I was lukewarm on Mahommes and Watson and didn’t think much of it at the time when we didn’t draft them. 

 

If anything, blame ownership for not getting the new GM in place prior to the draft.  But maybe that was out their control.

 

i think the lesson here is don’t trade down a top 10 pick.  Also, I think the mantra of always picking BPA in the top 10 - 15 is ridiculous.  You understand your biggest weakness and address it.   Keep your pick and get the guy who can make a great impact where you need it.  Unfortunately, the Bills have a lot of places to get much better this year. 

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2 minutes ago, BillsfaninSB said:

I find it difficult to target any one person for missing Mahommes.   It was a time of transition.  Easy for things to get missed.  I was lukewarm on Mahommes and Watson and didn’t think much of it at the time when we didn’t draft them. 

 

If anything, blame ownership for not getting the new GM in place prior to the draft.  But maybe that was out their control.

 

i think the lesson here is don’t trade down a top 10 pick.  Also, I think the mantra of always picking BPA in the top 10 - 15 is ridiculous.  You understand your biggest weakness and address it.   Keep your pick and get the guy who can make a great impact where you need it.  Unfortunately, the Bills have a lot of places to get much better this year. 

 

I don't think that is the lesson.  Under the circumstances....when you have a lame duck GM....and a new HC only on the job a short time prior to the draft...you probably don't have the best organized draft board....BUT forget that for a moment...they traded out of 10 because the powers that be drafting weren't sold on what was there at 10 anymore than they were sold on what was at 27.  That is a GREAT time to trade out....and given that you got Tre White....who was as good as Lattimore means you had made the right choice as far as knowing you could get equal talent later AND add some draft capital. 

 

More is actually made of this than need be...the lesson that needed to be learned was by Mr. Pegula....and that was don't stumble and staggar your way through a firing/hiring cycle like he did.  I think he probably learned that lesson.  Going and getting Josh Allen also showed the team, once the whole staff was together and on the same page...was all about addressing the QB situation because the 2018 draft and events/trades leading to it...were all about fixing your QB spot.  

 

If Mahomes was just an average guy....or even just a good QB in the top 10...NO ONE would ever bring this up...and if they did, it would be to heap praise on McD (and maybe Whaley) for astutely getting extra picks AND identifiying a great DB at pick 27.  

 

If you have identified a talent that you can't get later, when you have a top 10 pick...you keep the pick and select that player....if you have identified players outside the top 10, top 20...and you can get trade out and get them while adding draft capital....you do that. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ricko1112 said:

Let's pass judgement after we see what Mahommes does this season. I'm sure there have been plenty of QBs that had a good (in this case awesome) early season and then... RG3 and Krap come to mind, but I'm sure there are many, many others.

 

I'm going to need oven mitts for your scorching hot take. RGIII and Kap's successes are nowhere near compared to what Mahomes accomplished this year with his arm.

Edited by JimKellyTryouts

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9 hours ago, Tipster19 said:

I’m not even going to bemoan that he passed on Mahomes but it never ceases to amaze when I hear him say publicly that he didn’t know. It’s almost comical.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2019/story/_/id/26561055/drafting-patrick-mahomes-how-chiefs-outmaneuvered-nfl?platform=amp

 

There is the ownership input which many have criticized.  I think it is a good thing which can prevents things like Bush trade or a GM trying to save his job at any cost even if it costs in long run.  And evidently 3 other teams did not "know" enough to be willing to trade with Bills or a team ahead of Bills if Bills were unwilling to trade.

 

 

That isn't a scenario the Chiefs want to contemplate. They have a long-standing organizational policy that trading a future first-round pick requires approval of ownership.



In this case, Hunt was eager to approve.

"It's not a decision that I took lightly," Hunt said. "But with all things considered, it was not a hard decision. The chance to get a quarterback who can be a franchise quarterback for the Chiefs in the future made it a pretty easy decision."

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, AustinDan said:

 

 

McD worked for years under Andy Reid.

He should know as well as anyone how Andy Reid thinks and how well Reid can evaluate QB's.

 

When KC called asking to jump all the way from 27 to 10 he should have known that he was targeting a QB and that Mahomes was that QB.

McD should have known that if Reid wanted Mahomes and was willing to deal those draft picks to get him that Reid would only do that for a special QB prospect.

McD should have thought, my team needs a QB and if Andy Reid wants this guy so bad i should just take him instead of taking the trade.

 

McD was in charge of that draft for the Bills, Whaley was dead man drafting.

 

 

Yes, McDermott made the pick.

 

But Reid doesn't have all that great a record of picking QBs. He spent about half his career with Vick and Alex Smith. He's never really been known as a great QB drafter. He's a great QB developer. 

 

And there's no particular reason to swoop in on a great QB developer's potential draft pick and draft him instead and likely not develop him as well as Reid himself would have.

 

 

4 hours ago, BillsRdue said:

 

The article makes it clear that Whaley orchestrated the trade. He might not have been behind all the picks, but he seemed to be the one to pull the trigger to move back.

 

 

 

I'd love to see where the article "makes it clear" that Whaley orchestrated the trade.

 

All I can see is that he was on the phone. And that ain't even close to "orchestrating." Point man and boss are not the same thing.

Edited by Thurman#1

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Posted (edited)

I'd split the blame 50 % to McDermott and 50% to Pegula. I highly doubt Whaley had much input in that draft. Supposedly Pegula liked Mahomes going into the draft... if he had big enough balls he could've overruled everyone and just made the decision to draft Mahomes. 

Edited by NJKBillsfan

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10 hours ago, Gugny said:

An idiot who built a top 5 NFL defense, only to be torn down by Kim Pegula hiring Rex Ryan.

 

And everyone on earth was surprised that the Chiefs traded up to get Mahomes.  Don't act like it was a given.  Far from it.

Whaley was just awful. He had zero discipline in the draft and overpaid mediocre players. He mortgaged the future to draft a wide receiver, this with no quarterback. The day Whaley walked out the door was a great day for this franchise. We can pretend all day that he didn't suck but he did, big time.

Oh, and if he was any good, he would have a job right now as an NFL GM. I doubt if any team will ever be stupid enough to make that mistake ever again.

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1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

I'd love to see where the article "makes it clear" that Whaley orchestrated the trade.

 

All I can see is that he was on the phone. And that ain't even close to "orchestrating." Point man and boss are not the same thing.

 

It doesn't.  It is clear it is some poster believed and wanted to blame him for.

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7 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Whaley was just awful. He had zero discipline in the draft and overpaid mediocre players. He mortgaged the future to draft a wide receiver, this with no quarterback. The day Whaley walked out the door was a great day for this franchise. We can pretend all day that he didn't suck but he did, big time.

Oh, and if he was any good, he would have a job right now as an NFL GM. I doubt if any team will ever be stupid enough to make that mistake ever again.

 

He definitely made mistakes; I don't even think he would deny that.  But, as I said earlier, he had very little chance to succeed.  People can worship Ralph Wilson all they want for keeping the Bills in Buffalo.  The fact is, however, that he was not a good owner.  And by the time Whaley came into the picture, Wilson didn't even know who he was.  The organization was being run by complete idiots.  Then, as if that wasn't bad enough, new owners come in and neuter him, throw him to the media wolves and completely destroy the on-field product, which WAS headed in the right direction.  There's not a GM on earth who could have come out of Whaley's situation looking good.

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You guys realize Tipster hasn't really responded to this thread since...

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6 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

He definitely made mistakes; I don't even think he would deny that.  But, as I said earlier, he had very little chance to succeed.  People can worship Ralph Wilson all they want for keeping the Bills in Buffalo.  The fact is, however, that he was not a good owner.  And by the time Whaley came into the picture, Wilson didn't even know who he was.  The organization was being run by complete idiots.  Then, as if that wasn't bad enough, new owners come in and neuter him, throw him to the media wolves and completely destroy the on-field product, which WAS headed in the right direction.  There's not a GM on earth who could have come out of Whaley's situation looking good.

You make good points, but Whaley's mistakes were huge.

 

Before this article, I assigned all of the blame to McDermott for botching things up wrt Mahomes. Now it seems as if Whaley had a large part in this, and it doesn't surprise me.

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The real head scratcher here is that the Bills passed on a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues whose AMAZING passing numbers made you wonder if it would translate to the NFL... and INSTEAD 1 year later took a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues who had terrible passing stats. Look at Mahomes' college stats vs Allen's and it's clear who they should have bet on if they were going to try and develop someone with a big arm. Mahomes had as many passing yards as Allen's senior season in 3 games!

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Just now, WRONG JOSH said:

The real head scratcher here is that the Bills passed on a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues whose AMAZING passing numbers made you wonder if it would translate to the NFL... and INSTEAD 1 year later took a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues who had terrible passing stats. Look at Mahomes' college stats vs Allen's and it's clear who they should have bet on if they were going to try and develop someone with a big arm. Mahomes had as many passing yards as Allen's senior season in 3 games!

 

You ever see Tim Tebow's college stats?  Or Vince Young's?  Or Johnny Manziel's?  Or Ryan Leaf's?  Etc., etc., etc.  Take your tired narrative somewhere else, man.

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1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

You ever see Tim Tebow's college stats?  Or Vince Young's?  Or Johnny Manziel's?  Or Ryan Leaf's?  Etc., etc., etc.  Take your tired narrative somewhere else, man.

 

There are college players who cannot make transition and Rosen appears to be one but Allen is NOT.  Gungy is right take your campaign to Cardinals board and try to convince them to keep him.

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1 minute ago, WRONG JOSH said:

The real head scratcher here is that the Bills passed on a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues whose AMAZING passing numbers made you wonder if it would translate to the NFL... and INSTEAD 1 year later took a strong armed QB with accuracy and footwork issues who had terrible passing stats. Look at Mahomes' college stats vs Allen's and it's clear who they should have bet on if they were going to try and develop someone with a big arm. Mahomes had as many passing yards as Allen's senior season in 3 games!

Ive said that before. But they know their team better than us. It's possible they didn't feel like the offensive staff was in position to develop a QB. They were right about that. Mahomes would be on his 2nd offense already.

 

 

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