Bills have only 5 players left from before McDermott arrived

[Jpsredemption]

5 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

To me it seems like these guys would rather lose with their guys, then win with someone else’s guys. Since day 1 it has looked like Mcd and Beane were on a mission to purge the roster of Whaley’s players. It sucks because some of them probably could have helped us beat Jacksonville. I get the idea of bringing in a new attitude but you have to see what you have before you just run a wrecking ball through. 

A primary reason that regimes flame out quickly. Often times “their guys” are inferior talent wise. Letting good players go because they aren’t yours is the worst logic imaginable..and there is no disputing that players they’ve let walk or purged off the roster have produced. 

[Gugny]

 

4 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

Just because they brought in players, it does not mean all of those players are "their guys." That is a pretty superficial assessment from someone who should know better.

 

So Beane and McDermott got rid of other people's guys so they could go out and get their own other people's guys.  Interesting.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Gugny

[Green Lightning]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

You’re not missing the highest graded CB in the NFL (and a first team all-pro with a huge SB INT)?

Not for the coin he got. Would help if he ever even tried to make a tackle in run support. Our secondary is low on my concerns.

[billsfan1959]

14 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

 

So Beane and McDermott got rid of other people's guys so they could go out and get their own other people's guys.  Interesting.

I'm pretty sure it was evident from the entire post what I meant by that statement...

[formerlyofCtown]

13 hours ago, Augie said:

WOW! That’s just crazy stuff. But I can’t say it disappoints me. We were old and we lacked talent. Sounds like it could be worse. I hope we get younger and cheaper. 

 

 

 

.

We definitely didnt lack talent.  We lacked a good coach and were stuck in QB purgatory.  Beane traded a lot of that talent to get us out of QB purgatory. 

 

It looks like it worked.

35 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

A primary reason that regimes flame out quickly. Often times “their guys” are inferior talent wise. Letting good players go because they aren’t yours is the worst logic imaginable..and there is no disputing that players they’ve let walk or purged off the roster have produced. 

They used all that talent to get a QB.

[formerlyofCtown]

30 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

 

So Beane and McDermott got rid of other people's guys so they could go out and get their own other people's guys.  Interesting.

No Gugs they sacrificed that talent to get a QB and team first guys.  Why would they spend top dollar on a CB when they dont seem to have a problem finding them.  In reality I think they mostly got something out of players that didnt want to or werent going to be here anyway.

[Gugny]

20 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I'm pretty sure it was evident from the entire post what I meant by that statement...

 

1 minute ago, formerlyofCtown said:

No Gugs they sacrificed that talent to get a QB and team first guys.  Why would they spend top dollar on a CB when they dont seem to have a problem finding them.  In reality I think they mostly got something out of players that didnt want to or werent going to be here anyway.

 

I get it.  I took the comment out of context and for that, I apologize.

[formerlyofCtown]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

 

I get it.  I took the comment out of context and for that, I apologize.

Its ok this is TSW you wouldnt belong here if you didnt do that from time to time?

[Logic]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Jury is way out on all of those offensive players outside of maybe Dawkins.

 

I agree that the jury is still out on most of them. However, I'd also say that just about all of them have shown promise. Promise is more than we saw from a lot of previous era Bills players.

I'm all for playing the "wait and see" game with regard to Beane's players, but so far the early returns look promising.

[IgotBILLStopay]

13 hours ago, Augie said:

WOW! That’s just crazy stuff. But I can’t say it disappoints me. We were old and we lacked talent. Sounds like it could be worse. I hope we get younger and cheaper. 

 

 

 

.

Not sure this is true. Brown, Ragland, Dareus, Glenn, Watkins, Darby, Gilmore (FA), Woods (FA), Goodwin (FA), even Tyrod not really old or talentless, no?

 

That said we were definitely not doing well in maximizing their talent. Also we were heading for Cap purgatory - there was no way we could sign Gilmore. So, on the whole, McBeane have done well. But it is a stretch from that to say Bills were old AND lacked talent pre-McDermott.

 

The fact we couldnt get past 8 wins says more about Rex's coaching fit than our roster's age and talent. With the exception of Tyrod  - all the others have not disappointed in a different coaching environment.

Edited February 17, 2019 by IgotBILLStopay

[BUFFALOKIE]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

  As someone with a French mom, all I can say is: Vive la difference!

 

Pics, or it didn't happen.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

10 hours ago, ganesh said:

Actually that was very simple.  The  team was in cap-hell and they couldn't pay these upcoming FA's (Gilmore, Woods, Darby. Brown, Watkins) as they were already against the cap.  They did the smart thing of shipping them for draft picks that will be cheap for their first 3-4 years of the contract. That was the only way for them to come out of cap hell.  Would the Bill have wanted a shutdown corner like Gilmore or Darby...Absolutely..Did they have the money or cap space to pay them...Absolutely Not! 

 

Dareus was way over-paid and underwhelming.  There was no way they would have been able to keep the "Team First" Concept by not paying everyone but an under-achieving player.  

Cordy Glenn was the only head scratcher for me. Because we had a starting LT and especially when you lost your interior line to retirement, it would have been prudent to have preserved your starting LT.  But that was the only way for them to jump up the draft board to draft their franchise QB.  

Except they weren’t in cap hell. That only happened after they cut some of these guys and the dead money kicked in. The cap was managable. The crisis was manufactured by Beane. Thye could not have kept them all but they could and should have kept Gilmore and Watkins. I said it at the time. Dumb moves. And yes I know Gilmore decision was pre-Beane but McDermott made that call.

[formerlyofCtown]

4 hours ago, eball said:

No, but by all means, this wasn't a rebuild...at least that's what some around here have said. 

It wasnt.  It was a demolition followed by a rebuild.

17 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Except they weren’t in cap hell. That only happened after they cut some of these guys and the dead money kicked in. The cap was managable. The crisis was manufactured by Beane. Thye could not have kept them all but they could and should have kept Gilmore and Watkins. I said it at the time. Dumb moves. And yes I know Gilmore decision was pre-Beane but McDermott made that call.

I dont think Either was going to choose to stay here.

[Misterbluesky]

13 hours ago, JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS said:

we missed Ritchie this year, but ah well.  too much risk I guess.

Yes sir..not having him and Wood side by side really hurt us...just look at Shady's numbers.

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

You’re not missing the highest graded CB in the NFL (and a first team all-pro with a huge SB INT)?

 

The best pass defense in the NFL isn't missing anybody. The secondary is set for 4 years. Get me a pass rush and an offense.

[Logic]

People point out that not all the players the Bills jettisoned were old or untalented. This is true.

HOWEVER...

The objective from day 1 has been to build a TEAM. Not to build a collection of talent, but to build a TEAM.

Belichick has done this for years and years. Time and again, he has drafted players that had analysts and fans scratching their heads. But he doesn't care what anyone says or thinks because his main objective is to find guys that fit his vision and can do their jobs and play as a team. 

How many All-Star type collections of talented players have we seen come and go through the years in the NFL? And how many of them won championships? Just recently, the famous "Dream Team" Eagles (not the Super Bowl Eagles, but a few years before that with Vick and Asomougha, etc) were the greatest collection of talent on one football team that anyone had ever seen...and then the games started, and they sucked.

It's not about collecting talent, which is what Doug Whaley did. It's about building a team. If you want to know why seemingly talented players like Watkins, Glenn, etc aren't on the roster any more, ask yourself two questions: Were they a fit with the schemes McDermott wants to run? Were they a fit with the CULTURE McDermott wants to build? Odds are that in almost every case, the answer is "No" to one or both of those questions. The ONLY exception I can think of is Robert Woods, and he didn't want to re-sign here no matter what because of the way we underused him his first few years in the league. Every single other "super talented" player the Bills shipped off either didn't fit the scheme or didn't fit the culture. Simple.

[machine gun kelly]

14 hours ago, Logic said:

The reason this rebuild seems to be progressing well and giving us all hope is that after jettisoning the "old guard", the current front office has been capably re-stocking the cupboards.

To wit, the current core players for the Bills going forward:

Josh Allen
Dion Dawkins
Wyatt Teller
Robert Foster
Zay Jones

Tremaine Edmunds
Matt Milano
Tre'Davious White
Levi Wallace
Taron Johnson
Micah Hyde 
Jordan Poyer
Harrison Phillips
Star Lotulelei

That's a pretty darn good job setting a new foundation. They seem to have already found quality players at most key positions: QB, LT, CB1, Mike LB. They just need to draft a young, heir apparent edge rusher to complement/replace Hughes and Lawson. And on top of all of the above, as we all know, they'll be adding 10 or so new draftees and some free agents. 

Great work by McDermott, Beane and co.

 

There’s a good reason for you’re handle.  Well said.  I’m getting sick of people pulling the trigger too fast on Beane or McDermitt when they inherited a mess both in cap space, problem children and lack of talent.

 

This year and next year will tell whether not only do we have our franchise QB, but also our franchise administration, and coaches.  I know the soap opera will weaken this argument with Bell and AB, but the Steelers have had a ton of success hiring the right people, staying out of football decisions, and maintain continuity.  You can bash Marvin Lewis, but does everyone remember the Bengals were a mess before he came there, and maybe they didn’t win in the playoffs, but they went from perpetual losing seasons for 15 years to six consecutive playoff appearances.  His message got old, but is another example of success through continuity.

[Seasons1992]

15 hours ago, 2018 Our Year For Sure said:

 And hopefully eat as a receiver.

This is where he will have one more useful year if they use him properly. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Then guess what? 

 

The Culture excuse is long gone. 

 

McDermott has his culture. 

 

Now get some results. 

[eball]

31 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Never was a believer in the "build a culture" shtick. 

 

Winning builds a culture. 

 

The Bills could've kept Gilmore and Watkins and simply drafted a Mahomes or Watson and they'd easily already be winning. 

 

Why are you so unhappy?

[Warcodered]

15 hours ago, Logic said:

The reason this rebuild seems to be progressing well and giving us all hope is that after jettisoning the "old guard", the current front office has been capably re-stocking the cupboards.

To wit, the current core players for the Bills going forward:

Josh Allen
Dion Dawkins
Wyatt Teller
Robert Foster
Zay Jones

Tremaine Edmunds
Matt Milano
Tre'Davious White
Levi Wallace
Taron Johnson
Micah Hyde 
Jordan Poyer
Harrison Phillips
Star Lotulelei

That's a pretty darn good job setting a new foundation. They seem to have already found quality players at most key positions: QB, LT, CB1, Mike LB. They just need to draft a young, heir apparent edge rusher to complement/replace Hughes and Lawson. And on top of all of the above, as we all know, they'll be adding 10 or so new draftees and some free agents. 

Great work by McDermott, Beane and co.

Eh I don't really think they've made too many moves at receiver yet Zay Jones I thought was still a little up and down this season and Foster has made some awesome progress but he feels less like a focused effort at improving at WR and more like they saw a really cheap possibly boom or bust player  and it seems like it might pay out.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Why are you so unhappy?

No eball - you should ask yourself why you feel the need to shame other fans for trying to have a standard for this team. 

 

This is professional sports, not a soup kitchen.

[JohnC]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You've never........ever........heard anyone claim that McD didn't have "his guys" yet?  Ever-ever?

 

 

 

There is no doubt that he has his type of guys. Because he has openly said so since he took the job. He wants players committed to the game both in and out of season. A player such as Dareus who was not committed to being in shape and adequately preparing in the film room was not a player he wanted on the roster.

 

The reason why he got the job is that he convinced the owner/s that there needed to be a major overhaul of the roster and operation. Or another way of saying that is rebuild the roster and organization. You can reasonably disagree with that rebuild strategy but you can't disagree that he is implementing the plan that he set out when he took the job.

 

I'm not comparing McDermott to Belichick. But what they each have in common is that they favor a certain profile of player and person for their roster. So without question there is a McDermott type of guy who he is going to bring in or get rid of if that player doesn't turn out to be his type of guy.  

[Warcodered]

I'm not really sure being disappointed is all that much worse than being this depressingly pessimistic.

[Mat68]

They didn't make the playoffs for 20 years prior.  The roster needed to be overhauled.  Will the roster be made into a contender or pretender is on their shoulders going forward.  

[Cheeseburger_in_paradise]

That certainly dispels what McDermitt said when he got here. That he believed the Bills were "close."

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, eball said:

No, but by all means, this wasn't a rebuild...at least that's what some around here have said. 

 

 

If I recall during the SB they said the Patriots had only 12 players remaining over that same 2 year time period.

 

So 41 roster changes.........or 48 roster changes..........could that scant amount the difference between a SB champ doing normal maintenance on the fly and a mediocre franchise "re-building"?

 

Or is a lot of turnover pretty common.

 

Face it.........you have zero perspective because you don't REALLY follow the rest of the NFL.

[eball]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

If I recall during the SB they said the Patriots had only 12 players remaining over that same 2 year time period.

 

So 41 roster changes.........or 48 roster changes..........could that scant amount the difference between a SB champ doing normal maintenance on the fly and a mediocre franchise "re-building"?

 

Or is a lot of turnover pretty common.

 

Face it.........you have zero perspective because you don't REALLY follow the rest of the NFL.

 

I'm not motivated enough to do it, but it would be interesting to see a league-wide list of how many players are still on each team's roster that were there at the end of the 2016 season.

 

Oh, and the Pats?  When you've got the best head coach and best QB, and a culture already clearly established, turnover certainly doesn't work the same way -- or would you argue differently?

 

29 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I think my posts make you unhappy.

 

Again, stop taking it personal. The Bills/Sabres continuous struggles aren't a reflection of you.??

 

Dude, I'm unhappy for you.  

 

Edited February 17, 2019 by eball

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Great, you think that’s witty. Thanks for proving my point. You have no defense. I think you can do better if you try.  Even if your position is indefensible. ?

 

 

(BTW - If we happen to be at the same game anywhere next year, I’d love to buy you a beer and talk.)  

 

 

Absolutely..........you know I'm just bustin' your balls because you keep moving the goal posts (they're old.....ok they're not old but either way etc..).

 

I get it..........ultimately you just want to just look for any reason to be positive.

 

I get the whole "thoughts become things" "always be positive" stuff I apply that in all important aspects of my life.

 

Football is just entertainment though.........and it's entirely outside of the influence of my positive vibes.

 

Therefore I''m more analytical and dispassionate about it.  

 

And being a product.......it's gotta' entertain...........and fortunately even when the team sucks they always leave plenty of analysis and laughter at their stupidity.........and YES.....HOPE.

 

I'm not always negative...........I said they were taking a 10 win team to camp in 2017........I was a virtual lone voice who said they weren't tanking after the Watkins/Darby massacre......but that they were going to try to play "not to lose football" and hope that worked and they did.    I called Tre White the top CB in the 2017 draft BEFORE they selected him.    I was a big supporter of the Allen and Edmunds picks.

 

My track record wrt perspective on this franchise is EXCELLENT.

 

But people hear what they want to hear.

 

I come here to discuss the Bills in real terms.

 

Most of the feeback I get is from those who don't want to be objective.

 

That's cool but expect disagreements and if the arguments presented back lack any substance I will at least have fun with it.

 

[Logic]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

 

The Bills could've kept Gilmore and Watkins and simply drafted a Mahomes or Watson and they'd easily already be winning. 

You make it sound so easy. You should clearly be an NFL GM.

[C.Biscuit97]

7 hours ago, eball said:

No, but by all means, this wasn't a rebuild...at least that's what some around here have said. 

Nothing quite like completely rebuilding a team that averaged 8 wins  in the 3 Seasons before!  

 

I know you become a hater if you don’t blindly buy into everything this regime is doing but people do realize they had the second worst offense in the nfl last year?  Or everyone complains about Allen’s weapons when we had a receiving core of Woods, Watkins, Goodwin, and Hogan (3 of those guys started for teams in the championship games. Whaley sucks!).  Or that fans complained about Whaley’s trade ups in the draft but this regime traded up for Allen and Zay where they could have just stayed put and drafted Mahomes and JuJu.  

 

But hey. Just trust the process I guess.

[Augie]

27 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I'm not motivated enough to do it, but it would be interesting to see a league-wide list of how many players are still on each team's roster that were there at the end of the 2016 season.

 

Oh, and the Pats?  When you've got the best head coach and best QB, and a culture already clearly established, turnover certainly doesn't work the same way -- or would you argue differently?

 

 

Dude, I'm unhappy for you.  

 

 

I’m starting to think that may help! We should just get the best HC and QB ever and fix this! Why didn’t we see that sooner???  ?

 

I don’t love everything they do, but despite some errors I like the general direction. They make mistakes, like any team does, but I think they do a lot more right than wrong. I’d love to be in the playoffs this year, but you never know from season to season. If we fall short it doesn’t mean we suck and we aren’t making progress. I hope we are one of the pleasant surprises and keep building upon that. 

 

If others want to point out what they perceive as blunders and focus more on that, that’s perfectly fine. I don’t worry much about things I can’t control, so I don’t get too worked up about this stuff. We are all seeing the same “reality”, but everybody gets to decide what slant they want to put on football and life. 

 

If we all agreed 100% on everything it would be pretty boring. In the end, we’ll all have to wait and see how it turns out. Then we can disagree over what to do about it. 

 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

40 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Absolutely..........you know I'm just bustin' your balls because you keep moving the goal posts (they're old.....ok they're not old but either way etc..).

 

I get it..........ultimately you just want to just look for any reason to be positive.

 

I get the whole "thoughts become things" "always be positive" stuff I apply that in all important aspects of my life.

 

Football is just entertainment though.........and it's entirely outside of the influence of my positive vibes.

 

Therefore I''m more analytical and dispassionate about it.  

 

And being a product.......it's gotta' entertain...........and fortunately even when the team sucks they always leave plenty of analysis and laughter at their stupidity.........and YES.....HOPE.

 

I'm not always negative...........I said they were taking a 10 win team to camp in 2017........I was a virtual lone voice who said they weren't tanking after the Watkins/Darby massacre......but that they were going to try to play "not to lose football" and hope that worked and they did.    I called Tre White the top CB in the 2017 draft BEFORE they selected him.    I was a big supporter of the Allen and Edmunds picks.

 

My track record wrt perspective on this franchise is EXCELLENT.

 

But people hear what they want to hear.

 

I come here to discuss the Bills in real terms.

 

Most of the feeback I get is from those who don't want to be objective.

 

That's cool but expect disagreements and if the arguments presented back lack any substance I will at least have fun with it.

 

Good stuff, my dude. Thanks!

[Warcodered]

23 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Nothing quite like completely rebuilding a team that averaged 8 wins  in the 3 Seasons before!  

 

I know you become a hater if you don’t blindly buy into everything this regime is doing but people do realize they had the second worst offense in the nfl last year?  Or everyone complains about Allen’s weapons when we had a receiving core of Woods, Watkins, Goodwin, and Hogan (3 of those guys started for teams in the championship games. Whaley sucks!).  Or that fans complained about Whaley’s trade ups in the draft but this regime traded up for Allen and Zay where they could have just stayed put and drafted Mahomes and JuJu.  

 

But hey. Just trust the process I guess.

 

The FO was not in a position for that to happen in that draft call it bad luck or poor timing for regime change but you really can't blame Bean, wasn't here yet, or McDermott, a defensive HC hired a few months before the draft.

[Virgil]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Gilmore - F him and his contract 

Woods - seemed like a lot at the time, I regret losing him

Darby - he’s an enigma.  He’s rumored not to be resigned in Philly.  Always thought he was great.  Must be missing something. 

Zach Brown - didn’t fit the character mold. Took plays off

Goodwin - too inconsistent. Hasn’t changed

Watkins - too injury prone, wanted too much, still hasn’t strung together a full season

Dareus - didn’t fit in with the new regime, may get cut again.  Eh. 

Preston Brown - took a one year prove it deal.  We ultimately upgraded 

Cordy Glenn - still has an injury issue, helped us get Allen. 

 

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Which of those dudes were old?  

 

Did I miss all the old dudes they got rid of? 

 

The choices had nothing to do with age...........they KEPT the OLD players.........that's why they still had the 6th oldest roster in the NFL last season and second oldest in McD's first season.

 

 

Correct about the OP being wrong with old guys.  I regret losing two of them.  Other than that, I’m good and think we are in a better place 

[nucci]

18 hours ago, Augie said:

WOW! That’s just crazy stuff. But I can’t say it disappoints me. I hope we get younger and cheaper. 

 

 

 

.

what about better...why is cheaper important to you?

[BADOLBILZ]

19 minutes ago, Virgil said:

 

 

Correct about the OP being wrong with old guys.  I regret losing two of them.  Other than that, I’m good and think we are in a better place 

 

 

I wish I could agree.

 

The 2017 offense thru 15 games was 7th in the NFL in scoring and had recorded the fewest amount of turnovers ever since the NFL merger(prior to going with EJ/Cardale vs. Jets).

 

The 2017 defense was a mess.........but very talented.

 

There was no discussion of this group being a bunch of bad apples that needed to be thrown out.............it was pretty well understood that the coaching was the problem.

 

They were setup nicely for a big upswing year........a lot of young vets coming of age....... and if they keep that group together.........and add Mahomes.........and say Dawkins and Milano.........that's how mediocre teams get out of their rut.

 

As it stands they had either the worst or second worst offense in the NFL in 2018.......and the 6th oldest roster.

 

Vegas currently gives them THE WORST ODDS of winning the SB next year.

 

This wasn't a 2-14 team.......it was only between the 8th-10th worst team in football........a 6-10 team with $80M in cap room and 10 draft picks and nobody of import up for free agency..........that lack of respect says everything about how the organization is viewed by those who are paid to be right..........incompetent.

 

Let's hope they flip that narrative.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

Why are you so unhappy?

 

 

Hey moderator............shouldn't these be viewed as personal attacks?

 

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Dude, I'm unhappy for you.  

 

 

 

"The world is a comedy to those that think; a tragedy to those that feel."  - Harold Walpole, 1776?

 

 

 

 

[RoyBatty is alive]

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I noted in another thread today that Shaq was the only Bills-drafted player left on the roster pre-McD.

 

Kinda' dispels the whole "McD doesn't have his guys" myth.

 

 

Not really, if he had 100% turnover it would be his decisions but not "his guys". There is only so much money and draft picks you can use every year, thinking he could get all players he wanted in just two years is ridiculous.

[Augie]

36 minutes ago, nucci said:

what about better...why is cheaper important to you?

 

I’m clipping coupons here!!!!

 

I kid, cheaper talent is what allows you to pay for your second contracts on your draft wins. Of course....EVERYTHING is about getting BETTER. I just like the idea of home grown talent rather than paying a premium in the free agent frenzy. (It’s a good time to be Paradis!) We will overpay for OLine this year, and I’m OK with that. We need it. It’s not MY money. I’d rather be able to re-negotiate a guy a year early than pay him that premium.