Build a dominant O-Line!

[Buffalo Barbarian]

8 hours ago, Ray Finkel said:

Quentin Nelson is a beast.

 

really wanted him but we needed Allen.

 

i was hoping to get Will Hernandez (giants) after Allen but we got Edmunds which has worked out.

 

 

Hopefully we get my boy Jonah and some free agents or mid round picks.

 

 

[Nextmanup]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Building an OL is not something that's going to happen in one off-season.  The surface level view is that Buffalo use high picks and UFA and voila! we're good.

 

The reality is, a good OL group takes time to mesh and it's why OL play has suffered over the years.  Signing a Matt Paradis would be nice on paper but he's got to fit with what they're doing and how they're doing it.

 

The other issue is, from an economics standpoint, there's going to be a lot of demand for better OL and not much supply this off-season.  Lotta teams with plenty of cap room.    

 

 

Don't know about "time to mesh" as that sounds like fan-speak.

 

Good linemen have a habit of meshing magically right off the bat.  

 

We don't need a dominant O-line IMO; we need a solid, competent OL.  Right now we have what might be the worst in the NFL; that's not good enough obviously, but it doesn't have to be the best.  I wouldn't allocate that level of resources and capital to the OL.

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

10 hours ago, RochesterRob said:

  Greedy would be an excellent value at slot 9.

Well, there ya go.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Edited January 6, 2019 by Bill from NYC

[Bill from NYC]

8 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

Hopefully, watching the steady march of QB's that went on IR (Garappolo, Dalton, Smith, McCoy), and others that were knocked out of their line-ups (Wentz, Rogers, and his own veteran backup Anderson), as well as the steady stream of Buffalo RB's injured behind a line that couldn't open any running lanes brought home the fact that teams don't run the ball, or protect very well if they have a bad o-line.

Remember what happened to Luck? They beat him half to death. Now he seems to have a great OL and the Colts look like a Super Bowl contender.

[Bill from NYC]

10 hours ago, Dopey said:

Ah, the ole McClapper reference. Still don't get the issue with McDermott clapping. Why is it such a big deal?

Maybe you are right. It might be me, and I'm being serious.

That said, he really should cut down on the clapping imo. It appears to be a nervous tick at this point. I have never seen anyone clap that much in any circumstance. That would be me if the Bills win a Super Bowl.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The Bills absolutely gotta' get better on the OL.

 

But I'm not sure they need to throw first round picks at the problem.

 

The Colts HAD to do whatever it took.........Andrew Luck was seriously busted up and needs to live in the pocket and not get hit.

 

Next year.........the opposing defense's GOAL will probably be to contain Josh Allen in the pocket more than to sack him..........they will want him to have to beat them from the pocket........the tape they review is going to show certain throws he couldn't make accurately and they will try to force those more than try to beat him into submission........it's a significantly different situation.   

 

 

The Colts also had an elite prospect sitting there for them at #6. Had Denver taken Nelson and left Chubb on the board the Colts would have taken Bradley Chubb they wouldn't have reached down the board for whoever was the next guard on their board. 

 

And that is kind of the point with the people who are desperate for an OL at #9 and pointing excitedly at Indy as a reason why. If the best prospect on the board when the Bills pick is Jonah Williams I am okay with them taking him..... but he is not the elite prospect that Quenten Nelson was and so if there is an elite prospect there at #9 at another position then the Bills should go kn that direction.

[JMF2006]

For 5 years they(Colts) left their franchise exposed.

 

The kid almost gets knocked out of the league permanently and they finally wake up.

 

Firing Don Jaun was the Bills first step in protecting our franchise QB.

[mannc]

11 hours ago, Dopey said:

Ah, the ole McClapper reference. Still don't get the issue with McDermott clapping. Why is it such a big deal?

That nickname will go away as soon as McDermott starts winning.  To some fans, it’s particularly galling to watch Sean clapping away while the stoic Belichick is making him look like a high school coach.

[Boca BIlls]

7 hours ago, BillsSbSoon said:

Yeah he was running cause their line couldnt protect him

Not really

[RochesterRob]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Well, there ya go.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

  When picking in the top 10 it is about taking the surest player.  I don't want a high ceiling guy that most likely never reach it such as Little.  We still have the combine and the interview process so maybe some guys will rise and others will fall.  I just have a feeling Jonah Williams is not going to fall to us.  Indy lucked out that the surest prospect in the draft last year was at a position of great need for them.  That seldom is the case for most teams.  Usually most teams have a satisfactory player at a position that jumps up as the best value at the slot they are picking at and nobody is offering anything close to a good package to trade out.

[SoCal Deek]

I’d be interested for the Bills to look at back ups from teams with strong lines and good coaching. If coaching is important, then one has to figure there are guys on those teams ready to show what they’ve learned. I have know idea where to look for those kind of guys.

[formerlyofCtown]

13 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

I have been posting this for 20 years. As much as we need blocking, don't count on it. A first round corner would absolutely not shock me. In fact if my life depended on making the right guess, I would expect  to say hello to the corner from LSU at #9.

 

McClapper passed on Mahomes  and Watson to draft a corner. Why wouldn't he pass on a blocker?

No he passed to draft the guy he wanted that was coming out the following year.  He also aquired a first round pick to move up the following year if necessary.

[WideRightRevenge]

Here's Joe B's end of year grades .. first OL is #25 ... and 7 of the last 12 players graded are OL .. so yea ..let's get some new blood in there.

 

Season-long grades:
*(Minimum 200 snaps)

1) DE Jerry Hughes - 3.25 (1)
2) CB Tre'Davious White - 3.20 (2)
3) SLB Lorenzo Alexander - 3.19 (3)
4) WR Robert Foster - 3.06 (4)
5) DE Shaq Lawson - 3.06 (5)
6) NCB Taron Johnson - 3.04 (6)
7) WLB Matt Milano - 2.99 (7)
? S Jordan Poyer - 2.94 (9)
9) S Micah Hyde - 2.92 (8)
10) RB Chris Ivory - 2.88 (10)
11) MLB Tremaine Edmunds - 2.87 (11)
12) CB Levi Wallace - 2.83 (20)
13) DT Kyle Williams - 2.82 (14)
14) DT Harrison Phillips - 2.81 (12)
15) WR Isaiah McKenzie - 2.80 (13)
16) DT Star Lotulelei - 2.79 (15)
17) WR Zay Jones - 2.77 (18)
18) DE Trent Murphy - 2.76 (16)
19) RB LeSean McCoy - 2.74 (17)
20) DT Jordan Phillips - 2.72 (19)
21) QB Josh Allen - 2.68 (22)
22) DE Eddie Yarbrough - 2.68 (21)
23) WR Andre Holmes - 2.61 (23)
24) S Rafael Bush - 2.59 (24)
25) LT Dion Dawkins - 2.50 (25)
26) TE Jason Croom - 2.49 (26)
27) G Vladimir Ducasse - 2.42 (27)
28) TE Charles Clay - 2.42 (28)
29) RG John Miller - 2.34 (29)
30) LG Wyatt Teller - 2.34 (33)
31) TE Logan Thomas - 2.32 (30)
32) WR Kelvin Benjamin - 2.27 (31)
33) CB Phillip Gaines - 2.22 (32)
34) RT Jordan Mills - 2.12 (34)
35) C Ryan Groy - 1.94 (36)
36) C Russell Bodine - 1.90 (35)

[formerlyofCtown]

2 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Maybe you are right. It might be me, and I'm being serious.

That said, he really should cut down on the clapping imo. It appears to be a nervous tick at this point. I have never seen anyone clap that much in any circumstance. That would be me if the Bills win a Super Bowl.

Its a good day when the complaint about your HC is that he claps to much.

[ganesh]

14 hours ago, ChanticleerBillsFan said:

I saw that. Obviously changing from Brissett to Luck matters too along with Reich but I agree, let’s get better up front!

And a defense that improved with the addition of possibly the Defensive Rookie of the Year...   NFL is a true team game and the Colts improved in all parts of the team including Coaching.

[ChanticleerBillsFan]

So it sounds like for the most part we think the value is defense and offense at where we pick isn’t going to the best value and likely a reach. 

 

How about Ed Oliver? I looked back a few pages and didn’t see anything about him. 

 

I know now he had that scuffle with his coach over a jacket. WTF. Do we think that incident took him off our board or would we consider him at 9? Dude looks like a monster. 

4 minutes ago, ganesh said:

And a defense that improved with the addition of possibly the Defensive Rookie of the Year...   NFL is a true team game and the Colts improved in all parts of the team including Coaching.

I know and Darius Leonard, great pick up. I know a lot of us liked him coming out of SC State

Edited January 6, 2019 by ChanticleerBillsFan

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, mannc said:

That nickname will go away as soon as McDermott starts winning.  To some fans, it’s particularly galling to watch Sean clapping away while the stoic Belichick is making him look like a high school coach.

To those that feel that way, clapping and trying to motivate the team should be the least of their problem with coach. Jmo,

[Dopey]

4 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

Maybe you are right. It might be me, and I'm being serious.

That said, he really should cut down on the clapping imo. It appears to be a nervous tick at this point. I have never seen anyone clap that much in any circumstance. That would be me if the Bills win a Super Bowl.

Not trying to make too much of this, but it's not you in particular I was asking the question to. I should have made that clear, my bad. I can go to the search feature and find others commenting on clapping and Mcclappy(sp?). Clapping, really?!?! I'll take that over the clown show we had for the previous 2 years. Again, not trying to single anyone out. 

[Dopey]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Did he say it was a big deal?

 

Gruden got nicknamed "Chuckie" because he was constantly making contorted facial expressions whether the situation seemed to call for that level of emotional response or not............McD clapped incessantly/nervously in 2017 whether the play was good, bad or indifferent.   Hence McClappy or whatever. 

 

It was his MO.   Like Marrone with the use of the term "obviously".   Just a lack of self awareness wrt a nervous habit.    An awareness of your reactions/responses as a leader helps keep the message fresh and more constructive.    He seemed to do less of it this year.   

I just replied to Bill from NYC to clarify this wasn't meant to single him out. There are others who have an issue with it and say so. 

Gruden got the moniker because he actually looks like Chuckie when he contorts his face and it's funny.  as for 2017, he can clap his way to the playoffs any day to me. 

[T master]

It all starts in the trenches on both sides of the ball if the O or D line doesn't do it's job the team is usually not very good . 

 

The Bills usually have one side doing good but not the other hopefully McD can change that !! 

Edited January 6, 2019 by T master

[BillsSbSoon]

2 hours ago, Boca BIlls said:

Not really

He was getting killed behind that line. Not sure what you think you were watching

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, WideRightRevenge said:

Here's Joe B's end of year grades .. first OL is #25 ... and 7 of the last 12 players graded are OL .. so yea ..let's get some new blood in there.

 

Season-long grades:
*(Minimum 200 snaps)

1) DE Jerry Hughes - 3.25 (1)
2) CB Tre'Davious White - 3.20 (2)
3) SLB Lorenzo Alexander - 3.19 (3)
4) WR Robert Foster - 3.06 (4)
5) DE Shaq Lawson - 3.06 (5)
6) NCB Taron Johnson - 3.04 (6)
7) WLB Matt Milano - 2.99 (7)
? S Jordan Poyer - 2.94 (9)
9) S Micah Hyde - 2.92 (8)
10) RB Chris Ivory - 2.88 (10)
11) MLB Tremaine Edmunds - 2.87 (11)
12) CB Levi Wallace - 2.83 (20)
13) DT Kyle Williams - 2.82 (14)
14) DT Harrison Phillips - 2.81 (12)
15) WR Isaiah McKenzie - 2.80 (13)
16) DT Star Lotulelei - 2.79 (15)
17) WR Zay Jones - 2.77 (18)
18) DE Trent Murphy - 2.76 (16)
19) RB LeSean McCoy - 2.74 (17)
20) DT Jordan Phillips - 2.72 (19)
21) QB Josh Allen - 2.68 (22)
22) DE Eddie Yarbrough - 2.68 (21)
23) WR Andre Holmes - 2.61 (23)
24) S Rafael Bush - 2.59 (24)
25) LT Dion Dawkins - 2.50 (25)
26) TE Jason Croom - 2.49 (26)
27) G Vladimir Ducasse - 2.42 (27)
28) TE Charles Clay - 2.42 (28)
29) RG John Miller - 2.34 (29)
30) LG Wyatt Teller - 2.34 (33)
31) TE Logan Thomas - 2.32 (30)
32) WR Kelvin Benjamin - 2.27 (31)
33) CB Phillip Gaines - 2.22 (32)
34) RT Jordan Mills - 2.12 (34)
35) C Ryan Groy - 1.94 (36)
36) C Russell Bodine - 1.90 (35)

thanks for this

[Royale with Cheese]

The more time you give Allen to throw because he loves going downfield the more deadly he can be.  I know giving more time is what every QB needs but with Allen, he’s always looking for the homerun.  Those plays take time to develop and more likely a bigger play opens up when he scrambles.

 

Put most focus on offensive line so we can rub the ball again and let Allen continue to be aggressive downfield.  I would be okay with adding just one vet at WR in FA, focus the rest on the offensive line.  We need to start winning the trenches again.

[Dopey]

7 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

With the post season comments about Oline and the firing of Castillo there will be major changes coming forthwith.

 

 

Yep. There is hope.

[Green Lightning]

14 hours ago, OJ Tom said:

It nice to rave about the O-line, but Luck is the highest ranking prospect since Elway. It's the quarterback first and foremost.

 

And they haven't really proven much yet, I mean it's Wild Card Weekend, let's see how far they advance before proclaiming  "O-lines win championships!"

They've had Luck for many years and never did win much with him until they found a running game. That's the OL baby. If you can run block and pass protect you're going to win. Toss in an elite quarterback and you're almost unstoppable.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

Not trying to make too much of this, but it's not you in particular I was asking the question to. I should have made that clear, my bad. I can go to the search feature and find others commenting on clapping and Mcclappy(sp?). Clapping, really?!?! I'll take that over the clown show we had for the previous 2 years. Again, not trying to single anyone out. 

Oh I do agree, but that Sir is a low bar indeed.

[thebandit27]

A dominant OL helps--provided you have the QB first. Make no mistake: the Colts offense is great because of Andrew Luck.

 

Should the Bills upgrade their OL? Yes. Spend FA dollars so that you don't have to waste precious assets like the 9th overall pick on non-premium positions like LG.

 

That way you can focus the draft on premium positions like pass rusher, WR, and cornerback, where the top players rarely hit the open market.

[Prickly Pete]

1 hour ago, Green Lightning said:

They've had Luck for many years and never did win much with him until they found a running game. That's the OL baby. If you can run block and pass protect you're going to win. Toss in an elite quarterback and you're almost unstoppable.

 

They won a wild card playoff game.

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Green Lightning said:

They've had Luck for many years and never did win much with him until they found a running game. That's the OL baby. If you can run block and pass protect you're going to win. Toss in an elite quarterback and you're almost unstoppable.

 

You've got that backwards; if you have an elite QB you're going to win, but add an OL and you can become close to unstoppable.

 

I mean, the 2012 and 2016 Bills are the epitome of great OL play, but they both finished below 0.500.

 

Again, that's not to say that the Bills shouldn't be aggressive in upgrading the OL; they should. It's just outdated thinking to say that the OL is the key to the offense.

 

I mean, Houston won that division with some of the worst pass protection in the game.

 

But let's talk upgrades for a minute: FA offers plenty of volume at guard, but not so much at C and RT. I'm hopeful that Beane can capitalize on the veteran trade market for OLmen that always seems to materialize prior to FA. I've suggested plucking Osemele from Oakland for a mid-round pick since he's got a huge salary and Gruden hates his own players. 

 

Ordinarily I'd say Daryl Williams is a great fit (plus there's the Beane connection), but I worry about his health status. 

 

One guy I'd love to grab is Ty Nsehke; he's been great in Spot duty at 4/5 OL positions and is a veteran. I wouldn't let him walk if I were Washington, but he'd be an outstanding 6th OLman moving forward.

 

Center is the tough get. It's basically Morse and Paradis. You could wait and see if someone like Maurkice gets released, but that's a long shot IMO. 

[Boca BIlls]

1 hour ago, BillsSbSoon said:

He was getting killed behind that line. Not sure what you think you were watching

I am saying he is the reason the Colts are in the playoffs. His O-Line could have been bad and he still did it.

[BUFFALOKIE]

13 hours ago, Estro said:

Matt Paradis, is the apple of my eye, in FA.

 

We need a solid piece in the middle, C, was a dreadful spot for us in 2018.

 

He will cost a lot.  The highest paid center in the league currently make $10.5M/year, so you're looking at $11-$12M per for Paradis.

 

5 years - $60M is a lot, but I'd do it.

 

I would then follow that signing up with drafting a T and a G in the draft.  Bring in a bunch of bodies and hope to hit on 1 or 2.  

To become a better pocket passer, JA needs a better pocket. Can't have a pocket without a center holding his ground.

[Wayne Cubed]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

You've got that backwards; if you have an elite QB you're going to win, but add an OL and you can become close to unstoppable.

 

I mean, the 2012 and 2016 Bills are the epitome of great OL play, but they both finished below 0.500.

 

Again, that's not to say that the Bills shouldn't be aggressive in upgrading the OL; they should. It's just outdated thinking to say that the OL is the key to the offense.

 

I mean, Houston won that division with some of the worst pass protection in the game.

 

Add to that Russell Wilson who has played and won with some of the worst o-lines in the game.

[Bill from NYC]

3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I mean, the 2012 and 2016 Bills are the epitome of great OL play, but they both finished below 0.500.

 

 

I know right? It was like watching Orlando Pace,  Erik Allen, and Steve Hutchinson, Gene Upshaw, and Dwight Stephenson out there, all at the same time.    

 

Love your posts Brother but that was over the top. They were good to a little better than average.

[The Frankish Reich]

18 hours ago, Ray Finkel said:

Quentin Nelson is a beast.

Yup. And just as quick as that, the old "don't waste a Top 10 pick on a Guard" is out the window.

[thebandit27]

20 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I know right? It was like watching Orlando Pace,  Erik Allen, and Steve Hutchinson, Gene Upshaw, and Dwight Stephenson out there, all at the same time.    

 

Love your posts Brother but that was over the top. They were good to a little better than average.

 

Nope. The 2012 Bills had a bust RB that averaged nearly 6.0 YPC for the season.

 

The 2016 Bills lead the league in RB yards before contact per carry.

 

Both units were dominant in their respective seasons.

 

But here's hoping we see something similar next year to help the kid.

15 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Yup. And just as quick as that, the old "don't waste a Top 10 pick on a Guard" is out the window.

 

And yet they found a very good RG off the scrap heap.

 

It isn't really about "wasting" a pick on a guard; it's about value. Can you find a LG elsewhere? Is it common to do so? I say yes. 

 

Furthermore, is a LG a cornerstone piece of a franchise? If so, then sure, take him 6th overall. If not, then don't do it. Use that pick on a cornerstone type position 

[Mat68]

Yes but who they bring in and who they keep will be key.  Every year teams throw money at lineman, doesnt always work out.

[Spielman]

My wish list : 

 

Cody Ford - G 

Matt Paradis - C 

Trent Brown - LT 

 

move Dawkins to RT or guard.  

 

New line would look like : 

 

LT - Brown 

LG - Teller 

C - Paradis 

RG - Ford 

RT - Dawkins 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Spielman

[CNYfan]

Will take time.  The middle of the 2020 season we should see solid results.   

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

......"build from the ball out" is older than dirt......the "re-tired" Marv tried in 2006 except he brought in "spoiled beef".......

[CookieG]

2 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

A dominant OL helps--provided you have the QB first. Make no mistake: the Colts offense is great because of Andrew Luck.

 

Should the Bills upgrade their OL? Yes. Spend FA dollars so that you don't have to waste precious assets like the 9th overall pick on non-premium positions like LG.

 

That way you can focus the draft on premium positions like pass rusher, WR, and cornerback, where the top players rarely hit the open market.

Well, the Colts did pretty much the opposite of what you're arguing.

 

They had many needs. They're defense is a work in progress. They could have used another pass rusher to go with Sheerd. They could have used another WR, like Ridley, considering that their WR corps consists of TY Hilton.

 

They also needed work on their Oline, even though they already had 2 1st round picks on it. Many would say something like "you can't waste all of your assets on the OLine".

 

But, they went with the "non-premium" position, taking a guard at no. 6. (Well, not just any guard). They compounded this by taking Braden Smith in the 2nd. They now have 3 1sts on their Oline, a 2nd, and a pretty damn good player in Glowinski.

 

Andrew Luck now looks like Andrew Luck again, in large part because he's given time to throw. And yesterday...pfft, on most of his passes he had enough time to cook lunch before throwing.

 

What they did yesterday was go against one of the best pass rushing duo's in the league, along with a D that hasn't given up a 100 yard rusher all year...and put them on their collective asses.

 

had they not made the investment in the OL, they aren't in the playoffs this year, much less dominating a defense like the Texans.

For all I know, Luck might not have made it through the year without an OL that can pass block so well.

 

Their plan most certainly worked for them.