formerlyofCtown Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Besides the point really..... because Keenum was a good fit in that offense. Now was his 2017 lightening in a bottle and his career year that he will never match? Probably. But the fact is he was a good fit there and he is better in moving pockets than Cousins which I do think helped their offensive line. Losing Pat Schurmer didn't help either in fairness. He is a good coordinator even if I remain unconvinced he is Head Coach material. That offense isnt there anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said: That offense isnt there anymore. The OC isn't. Schematically it doesn't look that different to me. Obviously a little but not radically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hebert19 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Cousins = Stafford Eyeball test and clutch time perfomance > stats. People are so stat obsessed. If anyone watched cousins or Stafford in college they would know that they choked in every big game they had practically. Stats dont tell the whole story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 29 minutes ago, Hebert19 said: Cousins = Stafford Eyeball test and clutch time perfomance > stats. People are so stat obsessed. If anyone watched cousins or Stafford in college they would know that they choked in every big game they had practically. Stats dont tell the whole story. Stafford is tied for 5th in 4th Quarter Comebacks among active QBs and everyone with more than him has at least 5 more years in the league than him. Not sure I'd call him anti-clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 The Vikings defense is allowing 7 more points per game this year. That has been the main difference this season, not Cousins. If the D was anywhere near what they were last year they would be super bowl contenders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 25 minutes ago, Hebert19 said: Cousins = Stafford Eyeball test and clutch time perfomance > stats. People are so stat obsessed. If anyone watched cousins or Stafford in college they would know that they choked in every big game they had practically. Stats dont tell the whole story. That a reach. I put him in the =Matt Hasselbeck, Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon, Tannyhill, Keenum (maybe Mariotta or Carr?) <Alex Smith, Stafford, Dalton, Flacco, Gorapolo >Tyrod, Bortles, Osweiler A seconds issue is it seems as if he thinks he is Drew Brees. Vikings will regret banking on him. It’s a sucky value. The NFL knows if you move him off his spot he’s garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said: Stafford is tied for 5th in 4th Quarter Comebacks among active QBs and everyone with more than him has at least 5 more years in the league than him. Not sure I'd call him anti-clutch. There you go again....... you are so 'obsessed with stats'......... eye test man. Get with the programme. 2 minutes ago, MDH said: The Vikings defense is allowing 7 more points per game this year. That has been the main difference this season, not Cousins. If the D was anywhere near what they were last year they would be super bowl contenders. It is much more D and run game than QB - definitely. But he hasn't outperformed Keenum and that weakness once off his spot is a part of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soda Popinski Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 The Vikings are not the same without Shurmer calling plays either. They are having the same issues the Eagles are, they lost good coaches to success. Same problem we had when we lost Ted Marchibroda to the Colts 28 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr1 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 this is who he is. .500ish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Lol at first when I first read it, I thought it was Derek Carr that said that. I was thinking this guy has some nerve to criticize a QB getting overpaid lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Keenum had a career year last year. He was one of the best QB's in the league. I think the Vikings are fine with that production. They just believed, like a lot of people, that Keenum would not be able to reproduce a season like that, or at least not consistently. So comparing Keenum's previous season stats to Cousins current season stats makes no sense to me. If anything that shows that they should be happy with Cousins, who is going to give them that consistent production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 4 hours ago, GunnerBill said: They can't. I've seen every Vikings game I think.... even that one week Latavius Murray went off against the atrocious Arizona Cardinals he was making a lot of his yards after contact. Their OL is getting zero push in the run game. I think DeFilippo is guilty of getting away from it a bit too quickly at times as well but I understand the temptation when you have two excellent WRs and your run game is going nowhere to put the game on Theilen and Diggs. The line has regressed too. They lost both guards - Nick Easton to injury and Joe Berger to retirement - and they have been getting no push in the middle as a result. They have put Remmers inside from tackle to guard with less than convincing results. Reiff, who got abused pretty badly by Hughes, has always been a good right tackle slightly out of his depth at left tackle in my mind. He played okay last year and has been okay this year..... the issue really is inside. We have seen it with the Bills too. When you can't run up the middle AT ALL it affects the whole way you run your offense. It means the defense can stop the run without committing an extra man to the box and can play the edges much more effectively. I’ve only seen around 5 Vikings games this year, so I’d like to know what you think about Anthony’s Barr’s play this season. In the games I’ve seen, he’s been the Vikings version of Philip Gaines. He gets picked on on most third downs and isn’t up for the challenge. Seems to be either vastly overrated or was just being his very well in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman Kelly Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 On the stats posted by the OP, 2018 Cousins is playing better than 2017 Keenum. 10 million dollars better? Who knows, but I'm sure that as you approach the upper end of QB quality the return on your dollar flattens out. I'm also sure that Minnesota didn't believe Cousins stats would be twice as good as Keenum. And, as posted by others, Cousins has an upside I don't think he's hit yet, whereas Keenum had the best season he's ever likely to have in 2017. Cousins is slightly better than Keenum, and at the QB position that translates to 10 mill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) Going through their production since I started tracking it would appear that, in general, Cousins is a direct upgrade in literally every way except for turnover%, where Keenum has the slight edge of 2.30% instead of Cousins' 2.59% Edited November 21, 2018 by BuffaloHokie13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 20 minutes ago, NewEra said: I’ve only seen around 5 Vikings games this year, so I’d like to know what you think about Anthony’s Barr’s play this season. In the games I’ve seen, he’s been the Vikings version of Philip Gaines. He gets picked on on most third downs and isn’t up for the challenge. Seems to be either vastly overrated or was just being his very well in the past. He has missed the last couple of weeks injured. I think it is a bit that he was always somewhat overrated (I never thought he should have been a top 10 pick and in fact he was my "consensus top 10 pick that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole" in that draft) and a bit that the Vikings have used him in an increasingly off the ball role. When he lines up and rushes the passer he is effective. When he is asked to drop in coverage he has been a liability. That isn't a new thing this year either. What is odd is physically is he looks like he should be able to play in space better than he actually does on the field. I think it is just the instincts are lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wppete Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 As long as it is not us over paying for a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctk232 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said: Agreed. Many here wanted the Bills to be in the Cousins sweepstakes. I never thought it was a good idea. I'm so glad we didn't overpay for him. I think he seemed a great option to us specifically more so due to TT being gun shy and our starvation for a productive, progressive offense. But I also think Cousins benefited from the timing of it all. He was evaluated well near the top of a league where the mark of QB talent is as polarized and binary as it's ever been (i.e. you're either a Brady/Rodgers franchise qb, or not worth a roster spot - an alex smith game manager being acceptable for a short period of time), and during a time when the QB talent had fairly high parity among those starting in the league outside the top 5-7. Especially given the context of the FA market, he was touted as the prized option. He played well enough to be included in the upper echelon and upside polarity of QBs, and many thought there was a higher ceiling that he could potentially grow into. I never really saw him take that step, nor did his play ever indicate that he would - but I'm no expert and that was just my eye test. There's always plenty more going on than that. To me, I was never really convinced by his play in Washington. You see the guy on ESPN and read articles and he knows the position and game well enough, but it's never really translated in full to the field in a consistent manner. Granted, I don't think the Vikings struggles are entirely attributable to Cousins either, but the Vikes got exactly what they overpaid for. Edited November 21, 2018 by ctk232 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 What can I say to all the Cousins fanboys other than "I told you so". The dude doesn't win games for you the way a franchise QB should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Cousins is a good QB. Definitely overpaid though. Need to see how it plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Any GM worth their salt is gonna take a chance on Cousins over a guy like Keenum Keenum was a great story and played out of his mind last year, but to expect him to repeat it was assuming a lot. Hes a solid player, but hes more Fitz than Brees. Cousins isnt perfect, but I trust him to be more consistent for a few years than Keenum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Look how Cousins played vs. Buffalo and compare how Andrew Luck plays. One is a franchise QB one racks up decent numbers but is not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, NoSaint said: Did they pay him for drastically better play than keenums ceiling? Or because Keenum was a risk to drop off and cousins was reliably the guy that would play at or a little above keenums ceiling? Those who actually WATCHED Cousins play could tell you that he had a ceiling that did not warrant that kind of a contract... he is not a clutch QB. He is reckless with the ball when his team is in a position to hold a win. Keenum may not have had as high a ceiling as Cousins, but at least Keenum is a smarter NFL QB. The Vikings overreached, and now they are paying the price. They have Diggs, Thielen, and Rudolph for God's sake!!!! We look better with the patchwork offense we have... that's unacceptable. Edited November 21, 2018 by EasternOHBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said: Any GM worth their salt is gonna take a chance on Cousins over a guy like Keenum Keenum was a great story and played out of his mind last year, but to expect him to repeat it was assuming a lot. Hes a solid player, but hes more Fitz than Brees. Cousins isnt perfect, but I trust him to be more consistent for a few years than Keenum. True, though Cousins is closer to Fitz than future first ballot HoFer and top 10 all time QB Drew Brees too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Watkins' Rib Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Always be weary of a QB if his former is not willing to sing the supposed franchise QB. And injury concerns have nothing to do with the though process of not signing the player long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 1 hour ago, GunnerBill said: He has missed the last couple of weeks injured. I think it is a bit that he was always somewhat overrated (I never thought he should have been a top 10 pick and in fact he was my "consensus top 10 pick that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole" in that draft) and a bit that the Vikings have used him in an increasingly off the ball role. When he lines up and rushes the passer he is effective. When he is asked to drop in coverage he has been a liability. That isn't a new thing this year either. What is odd is physically is he looks like he should be able to play in space better than he actually does on the field. I think it is just the instincts are lacking. Thanks. Pretty much how I pegged him. I wasn’t a fan of him coming out either. Also thought he was overrated. For such a great physical specimen, his instincts have to be lacking in order to underperform the way he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 52 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: True, though Cousins is closer to Fitz than future first ballot HoFer and top 10 all time QB Drew Brees too. Not saying he is playing all world right now. He looks good to me. As others have mentioned, the line and running game have sucked this year. Much like the eagles last year, everything went right. This year, more struggles and its showing. I still think I'd do the deal for cousins than hope Keenum does it again. Itd be like hoping Matt Barkley suddenly becomes who he was at USC as a junior after sucking for 6 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 20 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said: Not saying he is playing all world right now. He looks good to me. As others have mentioned, the line and running game have sucked this year. Much like the eagles last year, everything went right. This year, more struggles and its showing. I still think I'd do the deal for cousins than hope Keenum does it again. Itd be like hoping Matt Barkley suddenly becomes who he was at USC as a junior after sucking for 6 years I agree it is more line and running game. But your explanation based on Fitz and Brees was flawed. Both Keenum and Cousins are closer to Fitz than to Brees. I mean Cousins is at least closer to the halfway point than Keenum but he is still the Fitz side of the line. Drew Brees is one of the best of all time and a sure fire first ballot HoFer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Hucklebuck Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Yet another “veteran presence” that our fans pine for that didn’t work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: I agree it is more line and running game. But your explanation based on Fitz and Brees was flawed. Both Keenum and Cousins are closer to Fitz than to Brees. I mean Cousins is at least closer to the halfway point than Keenum but he is still the Fitz side of the line. Drew Brees is one of the best of all time and a sure fire first ballot HoFer. In all fairness, Brees wasn't "Brees" for a several year stretch when the team around him was subpar. There's just something about Cousins. He underperforms his analytics. The elite quarterbacks are good to great 12/16 games. Cousins is probably good to great 8 games a year. Consistency sets the greats apart from the pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said: Those who actually WATCHED Cousins play could tell you that he had a ceiling that did not warrant that kind of a contract... he is not a clutch QB. He is reckless with the ball when his team is in a position to hold a win. Keenum may not have had as high a ceiling as Cousins, but at least Keenum is a smarter NFL QB. The Vikings overreached, and now they are paying the price. They have Diggs, Thielen, and Rudolph for God's sake!!!! We look better with the patchwork offense we have... that's unacceptable. ...but there was a pretty adamant TBD bunch that wanted him here at any cost........along with ""....fire McBeane.....fire McDermott....fire the Rockpile Beerman.."..for not signing him...........hmmmm.... Edited November 21, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: In all fairness, Brees wasn't "Brees" for a several year stretch when the team around him was subpar. Not true. He was equally brilliant (maybe not as good as this year which is shaping up to be the best of his career) just let down by a defense game after game. The stat is any year Brees has had a defence 26th in the league or better he makes the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Not true. He was equally brilliant (maybe not as good as this year which is shaping up to be the best of his career) just let down by a defense game after game. The stat is any year Brees has had a defence 26th in the league or better he makes the playoffs. ......hard to imagine Brees' first deal was thought to be WHOPPING back in 2006....damn I'm old......... After the Chargers refused to increase their offer, Brees met with other teams. The New Orleans Saints and the Miami Dolphins were interested in Brees. New Orleans made an offer that included $10 million in guaranteed money the first year and a $12 million option the second year. Brees signed a 6-year, $60 million deal with the Saints on March 14, 2006.[72] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 ALL GUARANTEED BABY! The labor-heads around here should be thrilled by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Not true. He was equally brilliant (maybe not as good as this year which is shaping up to be the best of his career) just let down by a defense game after game. The stat is any year Brees has had a defence 26th in the league or better he makes the playoffs. Not my point. The team won 7 games three years straight and very few people were talking about the legend of "Brees."' Kind of proves the point that even the greats can go long stretches without winning if their teams are *****. I don't know that Cousins will ever even take a team to the playoffs. He seems to be that rare player who's anti clutch factor outweighs traditional analytics. The one time Washington was in position to make the postseason, the guy played like trash against the Eagles BACKUPS. I hate to incorporate clutch into anything analytical, but this guy seems to rare in his ability to find ways to screw up when it matters most. 3 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said: ALL GUARANTEED BABY! The labor-heads around here should be thrilled by this. We are. How's the owner doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: We are. How's the owner doing? Probably regretting his decision to cave into labor's demands on this one. Just a hunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 4 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said: Those who actually WATCHED Cousins play could tell you that he had a ceiling that did not warrant that kind of a contract... he is not a clutch QB. He is reckless with the ball when his team is in a position to hold a win. Keenum may not have had as high a ceiling as Cousins, but at least Keenum is a smarter NFL QB. The Vikings overreached, and now they are paying the price. They have Diggs, Thielen, and Rudolph for God's sake!!!! We look better with the patchwork offense we have... that's unacceptable. Yea, but the flip side is those that watch keenum play don’t think he can get the lead consistently enough to be able to lose the game. And while he’s incredibly highly paid, in the universe of new qb contracts is it crazy that he’s similar to Carr, Stafford and garrapolo (after like a month starting)? 30m will be the new normal as elite guys get new deals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 10 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: Not my point. The team won 7 games three years straight and very few people were talking about the legend of "Brees." Anyone who was watching was still saying this guy is incredible. I actually think he is underappreciated. Unbelieveable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Anyone who was watching was still saying this guy is incredible. I actually think he is underappreciated. Unbelieveable. Yeah. I was only referencing perception. Don't disagree at all in terms of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I get why the Vikes did it but Cousins never seemed like anything special. It has been repeated thousands of times but teams don’t let qbs they believe are franchise changers walk if they think they are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 43 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I get why the Vikes did it but Cousins never seemed like anything special. It has been repeated thousands of times but teams don’t let qbs they believe are franchise changers walk if they think they are good. ...the reckless explosion of QB salaries for mediocrity certainly defines the desperation of the position over the last decade+....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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