QB rumors about importance of concussions in choices

[KingRex]

 

I spoke with a fellow who talked to a fellow (so though this interests me because it explains some Bills player moves I do not understand but this clearly comes from a rumor chain).  At any rate the guy I spoke to is very sport intelligent and level headed.  He says the initial info comes from a guy connected to the Bills medical staff who does not seem to have any financial ties to any particular player or anything more than a technical relationship with the Bills (and thus is not a member of any Beane clan, Brandon group or some internal faction.

 

At any rate, this fellow was privy to some of the Bills management thinking because apparently the issue of concussions and its implications for long term Bills financial commitments ended up being a huge unknown wildcard in the Bill's draft and contract decisions this year.  This fellow came in as an expert on concussion occurrence and reoccurrence.  He ended up talking a lot with the Bills braintrust, sitting in on a bunch of important meetings like a fly on the wall.  He was brought in as a medical expert but since he had no direct player care duties did not feel bound to medical rules of silence about specific players and as a temporary consultant did not feel bound to team secrecy.

 

At any rate he says:

 

1.  The Bills had mixed feelings about Tyrod's abilities feeling he had big plusses as a vet NFL starter (a pretty rare positive in the NFL which folks who want to declare him simply a bad player who should be cut just demonstrate how little they really understand the game.  The proof that he has real value is that the Bills got the first pick in the 3rd for him.  However, as true as it is like it or not he is one of a handful of men who QB''ed an NFL team to the playoffs, he simply was not productive in this playoff game and despite his rare experience and some singular talents (great runner and throws few INTs), he also has some serious flaws in his game that are challenging for an HC and OC to overcome.

 

McD originally believed these problems were too big and was interested in other options.  The Peterman experiment took place in part due to these doubts that Tyrod couldn't be coached up at this vet age.  However, a combination of NP's complete failure and the realization our OC was in over his head and a big part of our O's problems (and possibly Tyrod's timidity as he appeared for good reason not to believe in our passing game or playcalling).  At any rate TT eventually earned McD's faith because he handled his demotion in a professional manner and in the end he QB'ed his team to the playoffs.  In the end, its the NFL and winning means a lot (he won in the regular season but not in the playoffs, but for this bteam he won!

 

So why did TT go bye-bye?

 

Wins speak loudly because generally wins mean money and in the NFL $ speak loudest of all.

 

The Tyrod decision came down in the end to a statistical measure of his concussion risk.  In the end, the measure of the number of concussions (major and minor) he has had and the fact that as a running QB who even when he passes depends upon his escapability rather than a quick release to avoid sacks makes TT too big of a risk for a long term commitment at QB and in particular for a huge guaranteed contract.

 

TT was well worth a 3rd to a team which wanted him as a 1 year commitment and help coach's train their true future QB on when TT made a good decision not to throw and even more important when a gun shy TT should have thrown.  The Bills looked vat the concussion risk, Pegula's money and the ROI to be gained by trading TT and bye-bye-

 

2. The 2 Joshes-  The Bills apparently had the same football talent assessment as much of the rest of the NFL that actually had Josh Rosen as the most talented of the top 4 QBs in the draft (some had Darnold as the most likely to produce quickly).  Then why did Rosen get picked 4th of these QBs and the 10th overall?  Apparently the chemistry of the interviews overall and 2 big non play issues weighed heavily on the Bills.  Concussions and $.

 

Rosen apparently graded out statistically as a significant concussion risk (it probably won't happen but he has a significantly higher risk than the other 3 QBs.

 

Even worse, the odd Rosen $ problem is that his family has a lot (he is an heir to a fortune based on the Purell product apparently).  Apparently the haughtiness, self-confidence, and even arrogance he demonstrated in public comments and in interviews led the Bills to a conclusion (or at least a fear if they committed a bunch of time and Pegula $ to a 1st round pick) that if/when Rosen faces a future with a potential of brain damage at retirement he will simply walk away with his first rounder accolades, whatever $ from his contract he can keep and future family money.

 

I can see why he dropped so far despite his immediate high upside.

 

At any rate this is the latest wild rumor I hear but it makes sense to me.

[Jamie Nails]

I think I got a concussion reading this. I’m now sitting in a dark room and my head is throbbing. 

[fansince88]

At any rate, long story short?

[JinxedBill1]

Did you gather this at high level business meeting?

[Augie]

That’s a lot to digest. The first two gut reactions:

 

1) How many concussions has TT had, major or minor? Never a big talking point. 

 

2) I don’t think it’s IF Rosen has another concussion, it’s more WHEN it happens. I didn’t realize there was Purell money, just dad was a big time physician. 

 

5 minutes ago, Jamie Nails said:

I think I got a concussion reading this. I’m now sitting in a dark room and my head is throbbing. 

 

 

Turn out the lights and  turn off your brain. Reboot. 

[Fadingpain]

I think it is absurd to suggest that Tyrod was let go because of a concussion risk.  That is probably factor 17 on the list of reasons why they let him go.

 

If the Bills truly believed Josh Rosen to be the better QB but passed on him because of "interview chemistry", negative public comments, and because of some abstract fear he will walk away from the game prematurely due to family wealth, they are dumber than I thought.

 

 

 

 

[NoSaint]

if true, and a huge if, it would be a big gut shot to hear the bills passed on a qb that they rated higher as a player, given how rare it is to find one skilled enoughto succeed.

 

that it was his fathers finances in a substantial part seems particularly silly when any guy they draft is getting like $20m guaranteed. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by NoSaint

[Lfod]

1 hour ago, KingRex said:

 

I spoke with a fellow who talked to a fellow (so though this interests me because it explains some Bills player moves I do not understand but this clearly comes from a rumor chain).  At any rate the guy I spoke to is very sport intelligent and level headed.  He says the initial info comes from a guy connected to the Bills medical staff who does not seem to have any financial ties to any particular player or anything more than a technical relationship with the Bills (and thus is not a member of any Beane clan, Brandon group or some internal faction.

 

At any rate, this fellow was privy to some of the Bills management thinking because apparently the issue of concussions and its implications for long term Bills financial commitments ended up being a huge unknown wildcard in the Bill's draft and contract decisions this year.  This fellow came in as an expert on concussion occurrence and reoccurrence.  He ended up talking a lot with the Bills braintrust, sitting in on a bunch of important meetings like a fly on the wall.  He was brought in as a medical expert but since he had no direct player care duties did not feel bound to medical rules of silence about specific players and as a temporary consultant did not feel bound to team secrecy.

 

At any rate he says:

 

1.  The Bills had mixed feelings about Tyrod's abilities feeling he had big plusses as a vet NFL starter (a pretty rare positive in the NFL which folks who want to declare him simply a bad player who should be cut just demonstrate how little they really understand the game.  The proof that he has real value is that the Bills got the first pick in the 3rd for him.  However, as true as it is like it or not he is one of a handful of men who QB''ed an NFL team to the playoffs, he simply was not productive in this playoff game and despite his rare experience and some singular talents (great runner and throws few INTs), he also has some serious flaws in his game that are challenging for an HC and OC to overcome.

 

McD originally believed these problems were too big and was interested in other options.  The Peterman experiment took place in part due to these doubts that Tyrod couldn't be coached up at this vet age.  However, a combination of NP's complete failure and the realization our OC was in over his head and a big part of our O's problems (and possibly Tyrod's timidity as he appeared for good reason not to believe in our passing game or playcalling).  At any rate TT eventually earned McD's faith because he handled his demotion in a professional manner and in the end he QB'ed his team to the playoffs.  In the end, its the NFL and winning means a lot (he won in the regular season but not in the playoffs, but for this bteam he won!

 

So why did TT go bye-bye?

 

Wins speak loudly because generally wins mean money and in the NFL $ speak loudest of all.

 

The Tyrod decision came down in the end to a statistical measure of his concussion risk.  In the end, the measure of the number of concussions (major and minor) he has had and the fact that as a running QB who even when he passes depends upon his escapability rather than a quick release to avoid sacks makes TT too big of a risk for a long term commitment at QB and in particular for a huge guaranteed contract.

 

TT was well worth a 3rd to a team which wanted him as a 1 year commitment and help coach's train their true future QB on when TT made a good decision not to throw and even more important when a gun shy TT should have thrown.  The Bills looked vat the concussion risk, Pegula's money and the ROI to be gained by trading TT and bye-bye-

 

2. The 2 Joshes-  The Bills apparently had the same football talent assessment as much of the rest of the NFL that actually had Josh Rosen as the most talented of the top 4 QBs in the draft (some had Darnold as the most likely to produce quickly).  Then why did Rosen get picked 4th of these QBs and the 10th overall?  Apparently the chemistry of the interviews overall and 2 big non play issues weighed heavily on the Bills.  Concussions and $.

 

Rosen apparently graded out statistically as a significant concussion risk (it probably won't happen but he has a significantly higher risk than the other 3 QBs.

 

Even worse, the odd Rosen $ problem is that his family has a lot (he is an heir to a fortune based on the Purell product apparently).  Apparently the haughtiness, self-confidence, and even arrogance he demonstrated in public comments and in interviews led the Bills to a conclusion (or at least a fear if they committed a bunch of time and Pegula $ to a 1st round pick) that if/when Rosen faces a future with a potential of brain damage at retirement he will simply walk away with his first rounder accolades, whatever $ from his contract he can keep and future family money.

 

I can see why he dropped so far despite his immediate high upside.

 

At any rate this is the latest wild rumor I hear but it makes sense to me.

Tyrod was a backup taking paycuts at the very end. His production problems didn't appear for just one playoff game. I would like to direct you to the Bills vs Panthers game last season. So it evidenced early in the season and the final game. Tyrod can have a handful of good games but it was never sustainable or dominating. 

 

Don't forget that Tyrod was just some teams back up brought in to see if he could reach the next level of starter. He didn't completely fail but he didn't pass the test either bro. Tyrod still has a lot to prove in Cleveland in my opinion. 

 

I dont think Tyrod really should be touting himself as a playoff QB. He absolutely was figured out and planted on his head in that game. 

 

Petermans 5 interception game doesn't make Tyrods 3 point games somehow amazing. I agree with you that it's about winning and sometimes the chances of it happening with Tyrod were slim. You just knew in some games it wasn't happening. So concussion concerns I'm sure we're a factor but we didn't trade some all star for a 3rd because of it. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Lfod

[Kirby Jackson]

Please, please, please don’t turn this into a Tyrod thread. For some reason anytime someone mentions him, certain people jump into say “yeah but he wasn’t good.” This thread isn’t about Tyrod. The OP clearly said that they had “mixed feelings” on him. I think that a lot of people did.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how teams are factoring in concussion issues. “The most important ability is availability.” That has been a motto of McDermott since he got here. The Bills seem to be taking that seriously. That’s the story here not Tyrod vs. the Panthers. 

 

FWIW, I think that it is something that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a bunch of guys recently walk away for fear over their long-term health. It is still a secondary factor in my opinion but when you have a decision to make it can be a tiebreaker. It is “A” factor not “THE” factor.

[Happy]

7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Please, please, please don’t turn this into a Tyrod thread. For some reason anytime someone mentions him, certain people jump into say “yeah but he wasn’t good.” This thread isn’t about Tyrod. The OP clearly said that they had “mixed feelings” on him. I think that a lot of people did.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how teams are factoring in concussion issues. “The most important ability is availability.” That has been a motto of McDermott since he got here. The Bills seem to be taking that seriously. That’s the story here not Tyrod vs. the Panthers. 

 

FWIW, I think that it is something that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a bunch of guys recently walk away for fear over their long-term health. It is still a secondary factor in my opinion but when you have a decision to make it can be a tiebreaker. It is “A” factor not “THE” factor.

 

Yep.  I think that is a big reason why Glenn got traded and they let EJ Gaines walk.  But as for Tyrod, I'm not so sure that....j/k.

[White Linen]

59 minutes ago, Jamie Nails said:

I think I got a concussion reading this. I’m now sitting in a dark room and my head is throbbing. 

 

You forgot to put that in parenthesis.  

[Lfod]

24 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Please, please, please don’t turn this into a Tyrod thread. For some reason anytime someone mentions him, certain people jump into say “yeah but he wasn’t good.” This thread isn’t about Tyrod. The OP clearly said that they had “mixed feelings” on him. I think that a lot of people did.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how teams are factoring in concussion issues. “The most important ability is availability.” That has been a motto of McDermott since he got here. The Bills seem to be taking that seriously. That’s the story here not Tyrod vs. the Panthers. 

 

FWIW, I think that it is something that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a bunch of guys recently walk away for fear over their long-term health. It is still a secondary factor in my opinion but when you have a decision to make it can be a tiebreaker. It is “A” factor not “THE” factor.

I read the original post. It does a lot of talking in circles then comes back to concussion being a huge factor. Plus the op does call out people for not thinking Tyrod is that good as not knowing the game of football. A little bias was showing. Although I wouldn't doubt concussions are being taken seriously and they should be. 

 

I'll sum it up. It's about winning, Tyrod didn't cut it in the playoffs. Why is he gone? Concussions...

 

Josh Rosen don't need the NFL money and has a huge ego but is better then Allen. Why didn't we pick Rosen? Concussions...

Edited July 15, 2018 by Lfod

[Maybe Someday]

I don't believe concussions had anything to do with TT being traded. He clearly wasn't McD's long term solution so while the subject may have come up, his overall performance, lack of upside and most importantly the 1st pick of the 3rd round are why he's gone. 

 

I can however see that being more of a consideration in taking Allen over Rosen...assuming they had roughly the same grade on them. You want the guy that wants to play for 15+ years. Any concerns that Rosen won't tips the scales toward Allen.

[gjv001]

From all accounts, Beane and company had Allen as their top QB pick from the onset. 

[RocCityRoller]

I stated all along the injury history with Rosen including two concussions would be a factor in the draft.

 

That and two throwing shoulder injuries.

 

Rosen will probably have 3-5 very good NFL seasons and then ride into the sunset. He is not a long term answer.

[billsfan60]

Two things come to mind:

 

1. Taylor was not responsible for the drought.

 

2. Taylor was not responsible for ending the drought.

 

 

He was "just a guy" playing the one position where being "just a guy" plain and simply won't cut it. That's why he's gone. 

 

The Allen Rosen debate is all conjecture till we see them play.

[NoSaint]

8 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Please, please, please don’t turn this into a Tyrod thread. For some reason anytime someone mentions him, certain people jump into say “yeah but he wasn’t good.” This thread isn’t about Tyrod. The OP clearly said that they had “mixed feelings” on him. I think that a lot of people did.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how teams are factoring in concussion issues. “The most important ability is availability.” That has been a motto of McDermott since he got here. The Bills seem to be taking that seriously. That’s the story here not Tyrod vs. the Panthers. 

 

FWIW, I think that it is something that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a bunch of guys recently walk away for fear over their long-term health. It is still a secondary factor in my opinion but when you have a decision to make it can be a tiebreaker. It is “A” factor not “THE” factor.

I would be fine on a tie breaker but if the OP claim that Rosen was otherwise rated higher is true how would you feel?

[ChevyVanMiller]

Close your parentheses.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

25 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

Rosen will probably have 3-5 very good NFL seasons and then ride into the sunset. He is not a long term answer.

Around here, 3 years IS long term.  5 years puts you in WOF / HOF years of service.  ?

[Cripple Creek]

10 hours ago, fansince88 said:

At any rate, long story short?

Tyrod is gone and they drafted the other Josh.

[RocCityRoller]

59 minutes ago, ChevyVanMiller said:

Close your parentheses.

 

If serious, don't be the guy who argues semantics and grammar

 

I was involved in an online political debate the other day and when exhausted of facts and points my opponent stated:

"you misused a non-defining relative clause, dummy. try again"

 

Who the Fu#k knows what that is other than some over educated, good for nothing dumb @ss?

 

I had to look up what a 'non-defining relative clause' was.

I found it between 'micro-aggression' and 'trigger warning' in the @ss hat dictionary.

 

The proper insult would have been:

'You misused a non-defining relative clause dummy. Try again.'

 

His punctuation was terrible for such an educated lad.

 

Moral of the story: don't be 'that guy'.

Edited July 15, 2018 by RocCityRoller

[boater]

10 hours ago, KingRex said:

 

...as a temporary consultant did not feel bound to team secrecy....

 

Doesn't pass the whiff test right there.

 

I'm sure the Bills don't bring anyone into a sensitive meeting without a Non-Disclosure Agreement in place.

[RoyBatty is alive]

"Rosen apparently graded out statistically as a significant concussion risk"

 

Duh..it didnt take an alleged concussion expert to ascertain that a QB that couldnt play in his final bowl game after suffering a concussion over a month before might be high risk for it.

 

There is nothing new here and I dont believe any part time consultant wouldn't feel bound to secrecy, the NFL doesn't operate that was.  Hence this is somewhat hard to accept at face value.

Edited July 15, 2018 by RoyBatty is alive

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 minutes ago, boater said:

Doesn't pass the whiff test right there.

 

I'm sure the Bills don't bring anyone into a sensitive meeting without a Non-Disclosure Agreement in place.

They might if it's 'Dunkirk Dave / Don'.

 

??

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

I would be fine on a tie breaker but if the OP claim that Rosen was otherwise rated higher is true how would you feel?

I would hate it. It is worth consideration but as a tiebreaker. Rosen has been my guy for a couple of years. I hope I’m wrong. 

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, KingRex said:

 

 

Even worse, the odd Rosen $ problem is that his family has a lot (he is an heir to a fortune based on the Purell product apparently).  Apparently the haughtiness, self-confidence, and even arrogance he demonstrated in public comments and in interviews led the Bills to a conclusion (or at least a fear if they committed a bunch of time and Pegula $ to a 1st round pick) that if/when Rosen faces a future with a potential of brain damage at retirement he will simply walk away with his first rounder accolades, whatever $ from his contract he can keep and future family money.

 

 

At any rate this is the latest wild rumor I hear but it makes sense to me.

 

 

THIS paragraph makes sense to you??

 

Rosen's "Haughtiness and attitude", his "future with a potential for brain damage" and "Purell fortune" convinced Pegula that thye should pass on him? 

 

If that is true, the Bills FO is in rough shape.  None of that makes sense.  There is no way one can predict who will, in the future, suffer "brain damage at retirement" (I assume you mean career ending brain injury, because nearly all  of these kids enter the NFL with evidence of CTE already in their brain tissue) before they start their NFL career. 

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Please, please, please don’t turn this into a Tyrod thread. For some reason anytime someone mentions him, certain people jump into say “yeah but he wasn’t good.” This thread isn’t about Tyrod. The OP clearly said that they had “mixed feelings” on him. I think that a lot of people did.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how teams are factoring in concussion issues. “The most important ability is availability.” That has been a motto of McDermott since he got here. The Bills seem to be taking that seriously. That’s the story here not Tyrod vs. the Panthers. 

 

FWIW, I think that it is something that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a bunch of guys recently walk away for fear over their long-term health. It is still a secondary factor in my opinion but when you have a decision to make it can be a tiebreaker. It is “A” factor not “THE” factor.

Health considerations have always been a consideration when making decisions on personnel. But now it is even more prominent  because of cap a and financial considerations. If a prospect has a history of knee problems, or maybe worse, back problems, that certainly is going to become a factor in selecting a player, or at a minimum when you select that player. 

 

As you noted from both the player and organization perspectives the issue of long-term health factors will become more prominent issues not only due to the health implications post career but also because the money is so great for many players (not all) that players will have the option to leave this brutal and punishing game earlier and healthier.   

22 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

THIS paragraph makes sense to you??

 

Rosen's "Haughtiness and attitude", his "future with a potential for brain damage" and "Purell fortune" convinced Pegula that thye should pass on him? 

 

If that is true, the Bills FO is in rough shape.  None of that makes sense.  There is no way one can predict who will, in the future, suffer "brain damage at retirement" (I assume you mean career ending brain injury, because nearly all  of these kids enter the NFL with evidence of CTE already in their brain tissue) before they start their NFL career. 

If a player has a history of concussions in college (not just talking about Rosen) that certainly will be an issue for teams to consider when evaluating players. 

 

I was a Rosen fan but make no mistake about it his personality was certainly intensely scrutinized by teams considering drafting him. It wouldn't be surprising to me if other highly rated prospects were moved higher on their boards because of it. 

[Mr. WEO]

29 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Health considerations have always been a consideration when making decisions on personnel. But now it is even more prominent  because of cap a and financial considerations. If a prospect has a history of knee problems, or maybe worse, back problems, that certainly is going to become a factor in selecting a player, or at a minimum when you select that player. 

 

As you noted from both the player and organization perspectives the issue of long-term health factors will become more prominent issues not only due to the health implications post career but also because the money is so great for many players (not all) that players will have the option to leave this brutal and punishing game earlier and healthier.   

If a player has a history of concussions in college (not just talking about Rosen) that certainly will be an issue for teams to consider when evaluating players. 

 

I was a Rosen fan but make no mistake about it his personality was certainly intensely scrutinized by teams considering drafting him. It wouldn't be surprising to me if other highly rated prospects were moved higher on their boards because of it. 

 

 

If concussions and arrogance were issues on the minds of GMs in years past,  Marino, Kelly and Elway would never have been drafted where they were. 

 

Concussions have been a feature since day one of tackle football.  What is labeled a concussion now would not have been bothered with in the past---yet many of these players had full careers and still show no evidence of brain injury.  No doubt some will someday, but to rule out a guy despite all you have reviewed with hundreds of hours of tape, as well as live and in person, because he has an attitude and might get his bell rung a lot---particularly because some doctor has "calculated" his risk......I just don't believe that's why the Bills passed on Rosen.  I think they truly felt Allen is better.

[SoTier]

11 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Please, please, please don’t turn this into a Tyrod thread. For some reason anytime someone mentions him, certain people jump into say “yeah but he wasn’t good.” This thread isn’t about Tyrod. The OP clearly said that they had “mixed feelings” on him. I think that a lot of people did.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how teams are factoring in concussion issues. “The most important ability is availability.” That has been a motto of McDermott since he got here. The Bills seem to be taking that seriously. That’s the story here not Tyrod vs. the Panthers. 

 

FWIW, I think that it is something that needs to be considered. We’ve seen a bunch of guys recently walk away for fear over their long-term health. It is still a secondary factor in my opinion but when you have a decision to make it can be a tiebreaker. It is “A” factor not “THE” factor.

^^^

11 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Yep.  I think that is a big reason why Glenn got traded and they let EJ Gaines walk.  But as for Tyrod, I'm not so sure that....j/k.

 

Right-o ... except that the Bills had no problem trading for a WR (Benjamin) who had a history of knee trouble while in Carolina and who had an injury when they traded for him.  Glenn's injury was the only significant injury of his career.  Unfortunately, it happened to be one that was serious and that took a long time to heal.  It may have not been dealt with the best way at the beginning -- I believe they put off surgery for quite a while hoping it would heal on its own -- which may have added to the recovery time.  Certainly the injury -- and Glenn's hefty salary -- didn't prevent Cinci from jumping at the chance to improve their OL.   Of course, even Marvin Lewis has figured out that his QB can't hit his blue chip WR if he's getting knocked on his arse on most passing plays.

 

Of course, the Bills drafted a QB who has had at least one significant shoulder injury, which could be terminal for any QB's NFL career if it affects his ability to throw the football.  Who's to say that that another shoulder doesn't come back to shorten Allen's career?   The injuries that have prematurely ended NFL QBs' careers aren't just limited to concussions or should injuries though -- and they can happen at any time whether that QB has a history of similar injuries or not.  It takes only one.

 

2 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

stated all along the injury history with Rosen including two concussions would be a factor in the draft.

 

That and two throwing shoulder injuries.

 

Rosen will probably have 3-5 very good NFL seasons and then ride into the sunset. He is not a long term answer.

 

Well, "3-5 very good NFL seasons" trumps a single mediocre one.  Matt Schaub, who was drafted in the third round of the 2004 draft, had about that many good seasons as the starter in Houston while JP Losman whom the Bills traded up to get (giving up their 2005 first rounder BTW) had only 1 decent season, 2006.  I'm not saying that Allen will bust, but he's a big gamble, and Beane's/McDermott's squandering of their 2018 draft capital to get him and Edmunds  makes it even less likely that he'll succeed.  Plain and simple, he doesn't have the talent around him to succeed because outside of McCoy, Clay, Dawkins, and Benjamin -- when he's healthy -- the Bills are utterly lacking in talent on the offensive side of the ball.  The offense is little more than a collection of JAGs, busts, and never-weres, and frankly, the Bills don't seem all that interested in improving that. 

 

As for the OP, I find the claims of the OP's "source" having "inside information" silly.  His "points" seem like the pontifications of an ignorant blow-hard sitting at a bar with his fifth or sixth Genny Cream, and are literally a rehash of all the reasons that anonymous posters on this MB offered over and over again as to why the Bills shouldn't take Rosen.  His "explanation" for why the Bills traded Taylor, however, is more original but hardly plausible.  Taylor has proven to be pretty durable over his three years in Buffalo despite the doomsters' warnings, particularly before 2017 when he played behind a better OL.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

13 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

I think it is absurd to suggest that Tyrod was let go because of a concussion risk.  That is probably factor 17 on the list of reasons why they let him go.

 

If the Bills truly believed Josh Rosen to be the better QB but passed on him because of "interview chemistry", negative public comments, and because of some abstract fear he will walk away from the game prematurely due to family wealth, they are dumber than I thought.

 

 

 

 

 

We,ll apparently there were what 9 or 10 other teams just as dumb.  IMO the fact that Rosen dropped as far as he did shows that most teams in the league had similar feelings.  Once you get down to the tenth or so pick, not as much to lose if the pick doesn't work out.

 

[NoSaint]

51 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

If concussions and arrogance were issues on the minds of GMs in years past,  Marino, Kelly and Elway would never have been drafted where they were. 

 

Concussions have been a feature since day one of tackle football.  What is labeled a concussion now would not have been bothered with in the past---yet many of these players had full careers and still show no evidence of brain injury.  No doubt some will someday, but to rule out a guy despite all you have reviewed with hundreds of hours of tape, as well as live and in person, because he has an attitude and might get his bell rung a lot---particularly because some doctor has "calculated" his risk......I just don't believe that's why the Bills passed on Rosen.  I think they truly felt Allen is better.

 

Its likewise my hope that they took the player they preferred on the field based on skill.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

If concussions and arrogance were issues on the minds of GMs in years past,  Marino, Kelly and Elway would never have been drafted where they were. 

 

Concussions have been a feature since day one of tackle football.  What is labeled a concussion now would not have been bothered with in the past---yet many of these players had full careers and still show no evidence of brain injury.  No doubt some will someday, but to rule out a guy despite all you have reviewed with hundreds of hours of tape, as well as live and in person, because he has an attitude and might get his bell rung a lot---particularly because some doctor has "calculated" his risk......I just don't believe that's why the Bills passed on Rosen.  I think they truly felt Allen is better.

 

 

They were more cocky than arrogant and any issues they had were centered around football, not politics or other things. Having huge amounts of outside money does make a difference in today's world.

 

Rosen doesn't have a a history of having his bell rung, it's having concussions.  Back in the day of Marino, Kelly, and Elway  yes it was having their bell rung, today it's called a concussion. I'm sure in todays NFL in the last minute of the Bills 1st SB against the Giants, in today's rules Kelly would have been removed from the game.

 

30 years ago players weren't removed from games and then needed to be cleared by a doctor before they could return.  So to think in today's world a team wouldn't not pick a player (particularly near the top of round 1)  due to a history of concussions is very naive.

 

Was that the only reasons he wasn't selected, I'm sure it also had to do with overall they felt Allan was better or had more upside, but am also certai nthese factors played into it.  And as I stated in earlier post, 10 other teams seemed to agree.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[JohnC]

54 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

If concussions and arrogance were issues on the minds of GMs in years past,  Marino, Kelly and Elway would never have been drafted where they were. 

 

Concussions have been a feature since day one of tackle football.  What is labeled a concussion now would not have been bothered with in the past---yet many of these players had full careers and still show no evidence of brain injury.  No doubt some will someday, but to rule out a guy despite all you have reviewed with hundreds of hours of tape, as well as live and in person, because he has an attitude and might get his bell rung a lot---particularly because some doctor has "calculated" his risk......I just don't believe that's why the Bills passed on Rosen.  I think they truly felt Allen is better.

The historical qbs you referred to were from  an era of the past. The present is a different era where medical considerations for all types of injuries are now more scrutinized than compared to when those qbs played. That is simply a fact. 

 

I don't know why the Bills passed on Rosen. The brain trust might simply believe  (as you noted) that in the long run Josh Allen is a better pro prospect. But it is wrong to believe that physical and personality considerations were not part of the evaluation process. With respect to the physical considerations I'm sure that the medical staff was involved in the evaluation process. 

[Shaw66]

This is an interesting rumor.  I suspect there's some measure of truth in this. 

 

What I find interesting is that this describes the kind of detail that this leadership studies in making their decisions.   Sure, everyone knew that Rosen had had a concussion and there was some general concern about how well he'll hold up in the NFL.   But this suggests that the Bills tried to get an understanding of the probabilities of various QBs (Taylor and the draft candidates) having long-term careers as starters.  That's not the kind of thinking that Rex and Whaley were doing, at least so far as we know.   This kind of thinking is what the PROS mean when they talk about analytics.

 

Was Taylor a concussion risk?   I think so.  We saw him get dinged several times.  His style of play certainly leads to his getting hit more frequently than most QBs.  Does that decide the issue?  Of course not, but when you're evaluating the future of your team at this position, you consider all factors.  Is he good enough to be a pro starter (in Taylor's case, marginally), and what are the chances you'll actually have him for the long term?  Makes sense that a detail-oriented management would study and quantify things as the OP suggests.  

 

So why is Glenn gone and Benjamin still on the roster?   The calculus is different in each case.   First, they're position players, and their long-term futures are less important than QB.   You lose a lineman or a receiver, you move on.   Second, the Bills had an answer at left tackle, they didn't have an answer at wideout, so taking the health risk on Benjamin and not on Glenn makes sense.  Third, the Bills had detailed information about the health histories of both, so they would have known whose injuries were more likely to be chronic.   The same kind of probability analysis may have told them that Glenn's probability of being off the field a lot was greater than Benjamin's.    In any case, the injury probabilities wouldn't have been the ONLY factor considered, but those probabilities likely contributed to the decisions.  

 

Thanks for the OP.  

 

[McNubbins]

At any rate, could have just said concussions played a factor in TT leaving and drafting Allen and saved me some time.

[klos63]

13 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

You forgot to put that in parenthesis.  

was the whole post in parenthesis?

[John from Riverside]

6 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

I stated all along the injury history with Rosen including two concussions would be a factor in the draft.

 

That and two throwing shoulder injuries.

 

Rosen will probably have 3-5 very good NFL seasons and then ride into the sunset. He is not a long term answer.

I refuse to turn this into a TT thread

 

I think that Rosen's style of play also plays into this.....he is not mobile (and yes we wanted a pocket passer but you have to be able to escape trouble at times) and as I watch Rosen while incredib accurate also has this habit of stepping right into hits.....that is a not for long qb I dont care how frail or strong your body is.

 

With Allen......I think it could be entirely possible that at this moment in time Rosen might be better.....but lets not forget that Allen probably has not reached his ceiling as a qb....and qbs drafted can be at a certain level and when it is all said and done the qb with the higher ceiling can end up being the better qb in a couple of years.

 

I just hope that the bills dont try to use Josh Allen the athlete in their game plan and have him make his throws from the pocket and keep his ability to run in his back pocket for when nobody is open situations and not the other way around....a big strong cannon armed qb with a quick release......then run like a deer for that first down when all else fails.

[billsfan89]

If you want to say that the Bills thought Rosen had too significant a concussion issue for them to draft him then I think your argument could hold weight if the chatter about concussions is true. However, Rosen coming from an extremely wealthy family has nothing to do with anything regarding him as a football player. Josh Allen coming from a more modest background doesn't mean that he loves the game anymore or less. If Allen were to collect a massive 10 figure contract 8+ years into his career then he is set for life and just as likely to retire as any other QB. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

I stated all along the injury history with Rosen including two concussions would be a factor in the draft.

 

That and two throwing shoulder injuries.

 

Rosen will probably have 3-5 very good NFL seasons and then ride into the sunset. He is not a long term answer.

 

I would personally be happy if we had a QB with 3-5 very good NFL seasons.  Among other things, 5 seasons would allow us to draft 2-3  promising QB in the 2-4 round each year and try to develop them a la Jimmy G or Cousins

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

Its likewise my hope that they took the player they preferred on the field based on skill.

I'm going beyond the issue of Rosen and Allen and how Buffalo evaluated and ranked these specific qbs. There are prospects who may be tremendous prospects but are not suited for intense markets such as New York, Philly and Chicago. There are prospects who can thrive with certain types of HCs and not with other types of HCs. Not all players are going to thrive working under a Belichick or even a Marrone. Certain players may thrive under a Tony Dungy type HC while others may not play up to their potential under him. There are players who thrive under a bombastic Rex type of coach and there are players who recoil at the thought of working for a coach like him. 

 

My general point is that often it is the circumstances and environment that have to be factored in when evaluating whether a particular prospect is going to succeed at the location he is going to. Part of the evaluation process for each team is determining whether the prospect under consideration is a fit for their organization and even city.