Opinions on why we passed on Rosen?

[dollars 2 donuts]

10 minutes ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

true true true, I think he has an Albert Haynseworth type career. Which would be worth the (JMO) 5 or so years on the rookie contract.

 

PT, one side note, too.  Although they were the bickering bills in the late 80s and they may have hated Kelly at the time, it was still during a period in the NFL where you were still stuck with the team that drafted and paid you...so, for more reasons than one, you better work out the problem.

 

With today's free agency that just isn't the case anymore.

 

A shame...the kid is so damn talented.

Edited April 28, 2018 by dollars 2 donuts

[Bing Bong]

7 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

PT, one side note, too.  Although they were the bickering bills in the late 80s and they may have hated Kelly at the time, it was still during a period in the NFL where you were still stuck with the team that drafted and paid you...so, for more reasons than one, you better work out the problem.

 

With today's free agency that just isn't the case anymore.

 

A shame...the kid is so damn talented.

I loved Thurman for calling him out during the bickering bills period. Some bickering is good bickering.

 

It was a cool 30 for 30 side story.

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by PetermanThrew5Picks

[Fadingpain]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Listening to Greg Cosell talk about him, he made the point that Wyoming ran a very Carolina Panthers-like offense with designed run elements for Allen similar to how Newton is used. 

It may just be that Beane sees Allen as potentially a very Newton-like prospect (hopefully without the sulks) and McDermott/Daboll scored Allen more highly than Rosen because of that potential for them.

 

 

Beane said something to the effect that different teams look at medical issues with different eyes, so that could be a factor too.

I just wonder why it's seen as more of a factor for Rosen than for Mayfield, who had 2 within 3 games last year.

Let's assume the theory is correct and the Bills coach Allen into a clone of Cam Newton.

 

Is that good enough?  Could we have done better in this draft?

 

 

[Real McClappy]

Somehow this all Russ Brandons Fault no?

 

We could not draft Rosen as Bills chicks won't buy his Jersey cause of his face.

 

But they will Buy Allen's Jersey cause of his face, hence the pick you silly rabbits.

 

It's all about Jersey sales, Russ must be fired now!

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Real McCoy

[Andy1]

I think the Bills had real concerns about Rosen's durability and ability to make "something out of nothing" in scramble situations. I also think there is a real chance that Rosen didn't want the Bills. The Bills may have gotten that vibe from him and passed. Not every kid wants to build a career in Buffalo or Cleveland, especially if money is not a motivating factor for them. If he didn't want to be here it would be bound to end badly. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BuffaninATL said:

Breer is very well connected and I have come to respect he & Peter King for this reason. Your comments about Dilfer are in line with Breer, generally speaking.

 

I think the difference is that Breer's comments (as recounted here) put it 100% on Rosen, "he will not allow himself to be coached by...."

Dilfer's comments seem to put it more on "half the coaches in the league" for not being masters of their craft and willing/able to explain it on cue.

 

The reality is likely (IMO) to be somewhere in the middle.

13 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Let's assume the theory is correct and the Bills coach Allen into a clone of Cam Newton.

Is that good enough?  Could we have done better in this draft?

 

That latter is kind of unanswerable at this time, isn't it?  Time will tell.

 

Is a Cam Newton clone good enough?  Beane refers to him as a franchise QB, so he obviously thinks so.  I am personally not a big fan of Newton as a QB.  I don't think he's that accurate, especially when you pressure him.  He needs WR who can make the circus catches with a great vertical leap.  I think it's telling that one of his best seasons was his rookie year - I think as teams got more tape on him, they figured out how to hinder and stop him.
 

But Allen will NOT be a clone for better or for worse.  He may work harder at his craft and progress further.  He may be less able to improve.  Time will tell.

[Stanley Lombardi]

4 hours ago, BuffaninATL said:

great piece by Albert Breer from SI.com today in which he details why teams were legitimately scared off by one element of Rosen's persona: like Jay Cutler's downfall, Rosen will not allow himself to be coached by someone he deems not as smart as he.

 

 

Considering that Rosen had a 29 Wunderlic (Josh Allen had a 37) it won't be difficult to find coaches that are smarter than he is.

[Jamie Mueller]

They liked Allen better... period.  Why do people need to pick at every scab in life?

[Success]

Did any of his teammates go to his birthday party?

[JMF2006]

9 hours ago, Klaista2k said:

Rosen was talked about as probably the best pure pocket quarterback in the draft. He was available for the Bills to grab but they passed. 

Any options on why exactly we didn't like him?

 

-Injury concerns?

-Attitude?

-Concerns about playing in the cold weather?

-Was he just overrated in general?

 

Thoughts?

 

All of the above

 

I am starting to like  Cornfed more and more out of the 4 or 5 other flawed first rounders.

 

They all have warts

[BadLandsMeanie]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Listening to Greg Cosell talk about him, he made the point that Wyoming ran a very Carolina Panthers-like offense with designed run elements for Allen similar to how Newton is used. 

It may just be that Beane sees Allen as potentially a very Newton-like prospect (hopefully without the sulks) and McDermott/Daboll scored Allen more highly than Rosen because of that potential for them.

 

 

Beane said something to the effect that different teams look at medical issues with different eyes, so that could be a factor too.

I just wonder why it's seen as more of a factor for Rosen than for Mayfield, who had 2 within 3 games last year.

 

I'm confused by how they use the word. There are concussions, and there are Concussions. There is a wide range of severity. Like me, I may or may not have had one a couple years ago. The doctors said it would be very difficult to find out so the best thing to do was assume I had one and take a few precautions. 

 

Then there are ones where it is as easy as pie to tell because the guy is all goofed up.  I am sure it make a big difference how severe the concussion is but that isn't mentioned.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by BadLandsMeanie

[transplantbillsfan]

Well, I listened to him and watched him right after the draft.  Total jackass.  I was really upset the last name Goodell called was "Allen" rather than "Rosen" immediately after at happened.  After watching Rosen's interviews, I'm not upset, anymore. That guy wouldn't fit in WNY.

[keepthefaith]

He's Jay Cutler 2.0 except he's less of an athlete, less durable and with a lesser arm.  He'll be the most likely bust amongst the top 10 drafted followed by shorty in Cleveland.  You can take this to the bank with as much certainty as most of the other opinions expressed on this site on the QB decision.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by keepthefaith

[Manther]

IMO Rosen wasn't selected because he didn't fit what we were looking for in the leader of our team.  Character and leadership qualities are lacking.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

 

I'm confused by how they use the word. There are concussions, and there are Concussions. There is a wide range of severity. Like me, I may or may not have had one a couple years ago. The doctors said it would be very difficult to find out so the best thing to do was assume I had one and take a few precautions. 

 

Then there are ones where it is as easy as pie to tell because the guy is all goofed up.  I am sure it make a big difference how severe the concussion is but that isn't mentioned.

 

Granted that, just like sprains, the same word is used to describe a wide range of injury.  I think we can assume that if a football player leaves the game, it's because he's shown immediately measureable symptoms.

 

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the severity has been found to correlate to cumulative effects.  In other words, a guy who had 2 grade 1 (mild) concussions previously may still have cumulative damage that makes the third one debilitating.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Manther said:

IMO Rosen wasn't selected because he didn't fit what we were looking for in the leader of our team.  Character and leadership qualities are lacking.

 

Well, I didn't interview the guy.  But I don't think you can tell (to a point where it will interfere with his football) from the media.  At least, I think we're in trouble if we add "interviews well and comes across well in the media straight out of college" to the list of required precursors to drafting a football player.

 

He's not in any trouble with the law or with drugs - to me, those are real character concerns.  He's nerdy.   I really hate the Rosen bashing because of his post-draft presser.  The kid is competitive.  In Mayfield we'd call it "edgy" and "fiery" and praise it.  It seems like "sour grapes" to me "I didn't want that leadershipless guy anyway"

 

What I hope is the case is that the Bills liked Rosen, but overall Allen's physical abilities made him a better fit for what they want at the position.  Different teams weight things differently, and  I think the Tremaine Edmunds pick shows that Beane values physical abilities and potential higher than developed, demonstrated football skill.  The Allen pick over Rosen shows that same weighting.  Tremaine Edmunds is an amazing football athlete, but young and raw.  Ditto Allen.

 

We'll hope the Bills are able to develop them both.

 

 

[Section242]

I think the Bills would've taken Allen if they had the 1 pick. I think Pegula made the pick. Right now the Bills are in a rough spot. I'm glad they got a QB but now they need to add weapons for this offense. Right now I think they've got the worst offensive talent in the league. Next year they've got a boatload of cap space though I anticipate Allen starting by the end of the season.

[Punching Bag]

20 hours ago, Klaista2k said:

Rosen was talked about as probably the best pure pocket quarterback in the draft. He was available for the Bills to grab but they passed. 

Any options on why exactly we didn't like him?

 

If he was not good enough for Jest he was not good enough for Buffalo.

[Deadstroke]

'cause he's a pr**k!

[BuffaninATL]

Sorry for the belated video, but it is a follow up to my previous post detailing a perceived personality defect with Rosen & likening him to Cutler. It's a short clip (1:22) and worth a listen, esp. at the :45 mark

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/video/2018/04/26/2018-nfl-draft-cardinals-select-quarterback-josh-rosen

 

(embedded video on the linked page)

 

Thoughts?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Section242 said:

I think the Bills would've taken Allen if they had the 1 pick. I think Pegula made the pick. Right now the Bills are in a rough spot. I'm glad they got a QB but now they need to add weapons for this offense. Right now I think they've got the worst offensive talent in the league. Next year they've got a boatload of cap space though I anticipate Allen starting by the end of the season.

 

I hope to God you're wrong because if he did, we're back in Meddling Owner Hell.  It actually disturbed me a lot to hear the Pegulas were so involved in the pre-draft e v a l process and that they and Brandon were in the War Room.  

 

If the Pegulas input was invited for character evaluation, I think that's potentially good.  There were character concerns involved with the top choices and as businesspeople, they presumably have some insight.  If they were invited to help them understand what their employees planned to do and "buy in" to the plan, understandable.  But if they actually made the pick, overriding their football professionals - Hell to the No, No, NO bad.

8 minutes ago, BuffaninATL said:

Sorry for the belated video, but it is a follow up to my previous post detailing a perceived personality defect with Rosen & likening him to Cutler. It's a short clip (1:22) and worth a listen, esp. at the :45 mark

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/video/2018/04/26/2018-nfl-draft-cardinals-select-quarterback-josh-rosen

 

(embedded video on the linked page)

 

Thoughts?

 

My thoughts are that the way to evaluate whether or not that's true would be by talking to his coaches.  He had 3 different OCs in 3 years at Stanford, plus Mora, plus his HS OC and HC, plus Dilfer who has flipped and is now a Rosen fan.    You talk to them, and decide for yourself.

 

From what Dilfer said IMHO, if you're afraid Josh Rosen is going to shut off on your coaches, maybe you need different coaches.

 

Whatever is true, it's the Cards problem now!

[Buffaloflash]

On 4/27/2018 at 3:01 PM, Rosen-not-Chosen said:

The Bills FO/coaching passed on him because they were afraid of a player questioning their stupid moves and game plans. 

Then Rosen should have applied for a Gm,or coaching job.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

Beane said Rosen was definitely in consideration, they liked the upside of Allen, those 2 concussions had to be a factor and to be honest you can't teach arm strength, they probably felt like the mechanics can be worked on but that arm is elite already, just my opinions.

[BarleyNY]

Concussions.

[RocCityRoller]

On 4/27/2018 at 3:01 PM, Rosen-not-Chosen said:

The Bills FO/coaching passed on him because they were afraid of a player questioning their stupid moves and game plans. 

 

Josh Rosen, is that you?

[ganesh]

On 4/28/2018 at 12:10 AM, Bills4life1924 said:

Athleticism prob had something to do with it as well. Allen can run/extend plays. Rosen can work the pocket but is lacking athletic measurables. 

Does this mean that Rosen will need a stud OL to be successful in the NFL?

[RiotAct]

On 4/27/2018 at 4:27 PM, bobobonators said:

 

He needs to put on some weight. And im sure he will. He’ll die in the NFL otherwise. He has to face Suh and Darnold 2x a year. 

wait... what?

[SouthNYfan]

On 4/27/2018 at 9:57 PM, Fadingpain said:

Let's assume the theory is correct and the Bills coach Allen into a clone of Cam Newton.

 

Is that good enough?  Could we have done better in this draft?

 

 

 

You're f*cking kidding, right?

You don't think a clone Cam Newton, producing like him is good enough?

You're really asking that?

 

He has a league MVP and carried them to the f*cking Superbowl.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

I get the sense that Beane and McDermott would gladly deal with whatever social justice agenda Rosen might follow in exchange for delivering a SB championship to Buffalo.  I think they are both wired to win, and if they felt Rosen was The One he would be a Bill right now.  

 

I am 100% convinced they felt Josh Allen was the guy that could deliver, relative to those available at that point.  I've deduced this by looking at their actions leading up to the selection.  Concussion history seems likely to have been a factor, attitude and how it would play with the team might well have been a factor (Beane indicated they consulted with the leadership council before selecting Allen, perhaps they did the same with respect to Rosen etc all?), frame etc.  

 

 

[Chuck Wagon]

On 4/27/2018 at 10:09 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the difference is that Breer's comments (as recounted here) put it 100% on Rosen, "he will not allow himself to be coached by...."

Dilfer's comments seem to put it more on "half the coaches in the league" for not being masters of their craft and willing/able to explain it on cue.

 

The reality is likely (IMO) to be somewhere in the middle.

 

That latter is kind of unanswerable at this time, isn't it?  Time will tell.

 

Is a Cam Newton clone good enough?  Beane refers to him as a franchise QB, so he obviously thinks so.  I am personally not a big fan of Newton as a QB.  I don't think he's that accurate, especially when you pressure him.  He needs WR who can make the circus catches with a great vertical leap.  I think it's telling that one of his best seasons was his rookie year - I think as teams got more tape on him, they figured out how to hinder and stop him.
 

But Allen will NOT be a clone for better or for worse.  He may work harder at his craft and progress further.  He may be less able to improve.  Time will tell.

 

 

I don’t agree with your opinion of Cam. 

 

The guy tore the league up in 2015, cruised to the MVP and was very much responsible for putting McBeane in charge here. 

 

He got hurt against Denver week 1 2016 and played through pain the whole year. This past year they were trying to change his play style on the fly, he didn’t have Olsen most of the year and they had no running game. 

 

 

But more to the point Allen fits the mold of guys like Cam, Luck, Wentz. He’s big and athletic enough he can keep plays alive or just move the chains on the ground. Rosen is an incredibly polished passer, but there’s less physical limitations to Allen vs Rosen. 

3 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I get the sense that Beane and McDermott would gladly deal with whatever social justice agenda Rosen might follow in exchange for delivering a SB championship to Buffalo.  I think they are both wired to win, and if they felt Rosen was The One he would be a Bill right now.  

 

I am 100% convinced they felt Josh Allen was the guy that could deliver, relative to those available at that point.  I've deduced this by looking at their actions leading up to the selection.  Concussion history seems likely to have been a factor, attitude and how it would play with the team might well have been a factor (Beane indicated they consulted with the leadership council before selecting Allen, perhaps they did the same with respect to Rosen etc all?), frame etc.  

 

 

 

 

The likely reality is the vast majority of teams had Allen above Rosen. 

[bills11]

It's obvious the bills and all the qb needy teams had issues with Rosen's personality ..perhaps he reminds executives of another smug qb Jay Cutler ..but it also could be a thing like Aaron Rodgers who was Cleary the better prospect the Smith but probably turned people off during the process ..Rodgers is a very smug guy like Rosen than can rub ppl the wrong way..former teammates like driver and Jennings don't hold him in the highest regard 

[RocCityRoller]

55 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Does this mean that Rosen will need a stud OL to be successful in the NFL?

 

imo he will need clean pockets and a system based on timing, then he will be excellent if not...

[Peace Frog]

On 4/27/2018 at 12:01 PM, Rosen-not-Chosen said:

The Bills FO/coaching passed on him because they were afraid of a player questioning their stupid moves and game plans. 

 

You're free to be a Cardinals fan if you like Rosen that much and dislike our front office just as equally.

 

 

 

 

On 4/27/2018 at 12:07 PM, bobobonators said:

One sack from Darnold and one from Suh and this bundle of twigs will be left broken in half on the ground. 

 

I agree.  Even Sam Darnold could sack and injury this stick figure of a QB.  Imagine what Aaron Donald and Ndamukong Suh would do to him TWICE a year.  I hope he still has that hot tub; he's gonna need it.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Peace Frog

[Ol Dirty B]

On 4/27/2018 at 2:46 PM, 13player said:

 

4 reasons,

 

2 concussions

1 bum shoulder

1 arrogant SOB with Ryan Leaf Syndrome

 

Even if Allen's a bust and Rosen is great, he is 1 concussion away from the end of the line!

 

 

 

Why do you seem to be so excited by that?

 

It's kind of a caveman mindset and pretty gross.

18 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

 

You're free to be a Cardinals fan if you like Rosen that much and dislike our front office just as equally.

 

Or he's just as free to continue on and like the Bills, but not the stupid decisions they make. Not saying this is one, but given the Bills track record and how these coaches handled the QB position, odds are on the side of those who criticize it. It's an easy take to make and a bit unfair, but it's not wrong yet.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[Peace Frog]

11 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Why do you seem to be so excited by that?

 

It's kind of a caveman mindset and pretty gross.

 

Or he's just as free to continue on and like the Bills, but not the stupid decisions they make. Not saying this is one, but given the Bills track record and how these coaches handled the QB position, odds are on the side of those who criticize it. It's an easy take to make and a bit unfair, but it's not wrong yet.

Which stupid decisions are you referring to?

[Ol Dirty B]

7 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Which stupid decisions are you referring to?

 

I was referring to the Bills historically. Not just this regime. If you can go long periods of time without making the playoffs in your franchise history, you made stupid decisions.

 

But since you're trying to twist me into making a point I wasn't I'll throw a few at you.

 

1) Rick Dennison

2) The Peterman game in LA

3) Mike Tolbert being your number 2

4) Chris Ivory being your number 2

5) The management of the WR position since they got here. What are they doing? 

 

So yea, they've made some stupid decisions. They've also made some good ones, the Darby and Tyrod trades especially in my opinion.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[Peace Frog]

34 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

I was referring to the Bills historically. Not just this regime. If you can go long periods of time without making the playoffs in your franchise history, you made stupid decisions.

 

But since you're trying to twist me into making a point I wasn't I'll throw a few at you.

 

1) Rick Dennison

2) The Peterman game in LA

3) Mike Tolbert being your number 2

4) Chris Ivory being your number 2

5) The management of the WR position since they got here. What are they doing? 

 

So yea, they've made some stupid decisions. They've also made some good ones, the Darby and Tyrod trades especially in my opinion.

1) Totally agree

2) Tyrod's poor performance the previous two games warranted that desperate move

3) Totally agree

4) He may not be the #2 and is not a bad RB

5) Work in progress.  Better QB makes the WRs look better.

[Peace Frog]

On 4/27/2018 at 12:05 PM, Shaw66 said:

When the Bills were on the clock at 7, I wanted Rosen.  Literally seconds before Goodell made the announcement, I thought "I don't want Rosen, I want Allen."

 

For me, it's attitude, and Rosen demonstrated it again in his comments about making 9 teams pay.   For Rosen, sooner or later it always seems to be about Rosen.   I don't a guy like that.   I want a guy who's always about winning. 

 

Look, Allen went at 7, Rosen at 10.   Which guy had the right, over his entire football career, to feel slighted?   The guy whose nickname in high school, for heaven's sake, was "chosen."   The guy who went to the glamour football school?   The guy who's been all over the media for the past three years?

 

Of the guy who played 8-man football in high school, who was recruited by ZERO Division I schools, the guy who went to junior college and sent 1000 emails to coaches, begging for a shot?   

 

Allen has lived his football life PROVING people wrong.   Rosen has lived his football life reading his press clippings.  

I thought that comment was a bit strange.  Rosen is going to show the previous 9 teams that didn't draft him that they screwed up by defeating them on the field on a consistent basis?  First of all, Josh, there were only 8 teams picking before the Cardinals as Cleveland drafted twice.  Second, apparently, the Giants, Broncos, Colts, Bears, and 49ers didn't want or need a QB so that just leaves 3 teams that you can seek your revenge on.  And since they are all AFC teams and you are on an NFC team, you only get to play them once every four years.  In summation, you may be concussed out of the league by the Rams D-line before you even get to play the Bills, Browns, or Jets.  What an insufferable, self-absorbed, d-bag he is.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

2 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

I thought that comment was a bit strange.  Rosen is going to show the previous 9 teams that didn't draft him that they screwed up by defeating them on the field on a consistent basis?  First of all, Josh, there were only 8 teams picking before the Cardinals as Cleveland drafted twice.  Second, apparently, the Giants, Broncos, Colts, Bears, and 49ers didn't want or need a QB so that just leaves 3 teams that you can seek your revenge on.  And since they are all AFC teams and you are on an NFC team, you only get to play them once every four years.  In summation, you may be concussed out of the league by the Rams D-line before you even get to play the Bills, Browns, or Jets.  What an insufferable, self-absorbed, d-bag he is.

I’m not saying that Rosen will be Brady, but I will say that many of the greats are self absorbed d-bags. Brady cries about everyone picked before him to this day. I didn’t mind Rosen’s belligerent swagger a bit. I like Rosen talking about making people pay for not drafting him. It’s not any worse than our QB’s first statements apologizing for stupid tweets he made as kid. 

[Hebert19]

On 4/27/2018 at 2:34 PM, Klaista2k said:

Rosen was talked about as probably the best pure pocket quarterback in the draft. He was available for the Bills to grab but they passed. 

Any options on why exactly we didn't like him?

 

-Injury concerns?

-Attitude?

-Concerns about playing in the cold weather?

-Was he just overrated in general?

 

Thoughts?

2 words.  Sam Bradford.

 

Is that who you want to pin the hopes of your franchise to?