FanDuel and DraftKings Banned in NYS

[CodeMonkey]

The issue I heard about was there wasn't enough regulation of employees of 1 working the other with their intimate knowledge of the "game"

Not intimate knowledge of the game, intimate knowledge of what all the players (fan duel and draftkings players) were doing. They had access to all of the data so they could see trends and create lineups to take advantage of that. So not football knowledge, insider knowledge. A HUGE advantage.

Edited November 11, 2015 by CodeMonkey

[QCity]

The hypocrisy is pretty bad. You can walk in almost any bar in WNY and find a Keno machine to play or buy scratch-off tickets out of a vending machine. Can't tell you how many times I've been stuck behind someone buying hundreds of dollars worth of Lottery tickets at the gas station register.

[CountDorkula]

If idiots wish to be parted from their money then let's not stand in their way.

 

So ill take my $25 and spread it over 17 weeks with a chance at return.

You take your $25 and spend it at the bar in one night.

 

How is either one an "idiot" as you say, if they both get enjoyment out of it?

[Protocal69]

1. Does anyone have any idea of what the house take/vig is for sites like FanDuel and Draft Kings? I'm not a big gambler, but whenever I'm in Vegas I visit the sports books. I've kept away from fantasy sites because they're not transparent. I know what the house keeps in a normal sports betting pool, for various bets at the race track, etc. I have no idea. To me it's a consumer issue -- one that would be better addressed by ensuring a fair/transparent game than by banning these sites.

 

2. Follow the money. Nevada casino interests hate competition. (Follow Harry Reid too) Look what happened when Delaware tried to legalize sports gambling. The current Administration thinks it's fine and dandy for states to legalize a federally banned substance, but when a state tries to legalize gambling, watch out.

It depends on the game type. On average the rake (or take) is around 10%-14%. That why to become a winning player on heads up and 50/50's you have to win at a minimum of 62% of the time to make a profit.

 

What does work to the players favor is overlay. Overlay is is the difference between the total guaranteed prize-pool by a DFS site and the actual number of paid entries. It's money the site has to put in to the prize pool themselves rather than being added by other DFS players.

 

This gives the players that know how to look for overlay an advantage against the site

Edited November 11, 2015 by Protocal69

[jimmy10]

Good. Those companies are shady as hell. Plus any pie Jerry Jones and Bobby Kraft have their fat little thumbs in has to be rotten.

 

I'm not against gambling in any way, shape or form. But the game has to be square, and I'm glad NYS is stepping up.

[zonabb]

I use and they should be illegal until they make all sports books legal. They are no more a game of skill than betting games. Each is pure luck and the only skill that comes into it is for those with the expertise to develop models to reduce variability and therefore slightly increase their odds. Put another way, the likelihood of losing your FanDuel game is based predicting multiple outcomes (players stats), something that has more luck than skill involved. How is predicting the outcome of multiple players more of a skill than predicting the outcome of two teams?

 

If it was pure skill, then FanDuel and DraftKings should publish the winning percentages for all users and those who use sophisticated data models should also publish their winning percentages. Then we'll see, conclusively, that the difference between the two groups is likely minimal, hence the supposedly skill is really non-existent. The reality is, if it's a game of skill, no one has any. The house always wins and you end up with a balance of zero over time. That's the crux of the business model, it's no different than a casino.

 

I actually don't really care. My argument isn't as much against FanDuel as it is the illegality of sports betting. If FanDuel is doing this and trying to argue semantics and legalese, then show us the data, specifically the percentage of users who consistent win, ie have skill. Show us how that differs in a statistically significant manner from sports gambling, which is said to be pure luck. Ultimately, it comes down to the human element, the pro leagues don't want games affected by players engaged in gambling on their own teams and throwing games. A player can do that for themselves if they have a team with 8 other players on it. So the Jerry Jones' (soulless greed) support a legal framework to outlaw that while then investing in a gambling effort to line their pockets based on the collective performance of their employees.

 

It's all a sham, so let's stop the sham and make all gambling legal.

[Dr. Fong]

I haven't played yet. I was thinking about trying it out this season, but the absolute deluge of commercials turned me off to the point that I'd never sign up for one of their sites. I do believe people should be able to spend their money however they wish. I don't think government has a place regulating this. That's just my opinion, not a legal argument.

[aristocrat]

I swear I don't think I've heard one person ever say they're losing money on these sites!

[Protocal69]

As a DFS player what makes me mad is that people who do not play the game think they know everything about the game. I guess that's the site fault for just saying deposit money, make picks, get paid. In its most simplistic form yes that is what you do but in order for you to win consistantly you have to do your research for the week. Do me a favor and go to this site: rotogrinders.com. Just read through the forums and courses and then tell me it's ALL luck

[H2o]

It is legal just the states want a cut of the winnings.

Boom! It's all about the $$$$$

[mikef272002]

I've played a couple times and didn't win anything. I only put in $25.00 so it's not like I lost big bucks... I don't see how someone sitting behind a desk can tell the entire state that they can't do something with their money.. I'd like to make my own ruling and say I no longer can pay taxes to this freaking state! it's my money and I should be able to risk it how I want...! Plain and simple, It's not the states money...

[CountDorkula]

I swear I don't think I've heard one person ever say they're losing money on these sites!

 

Ive done both. Won and lost. Last week was a decent win week. So I let $20 ride on a contest

 

A lot more people lose than win. The contest I am in now has spots for 286,250 contestants. The total prize pool is $5,000,000. $1,000,000 to first.

 

The top 63,000 places pay.

 

In this structure 200,000+ are going to lose money.

[The Frankish Reich]

It depends on the game type. On average the rake (or take) is around 10%-14%. That why to become a winning player on heads up and 50/50's you have to win at a minimum of 62% of the time to make a profit.

 

What does work to the players favor is overlay. Overlay is is the difference between the total guaranteed prize-pool by a DFS site and the actual number of paid entries. It's money the site has to put in to the prize pool themselves rather than being added by other DFS players.

 

This gives the players that know how to look for overlay an advantage against the site

Thanks. Good information. Do they publish the rake for various game types? I know this is all kind of insider sports gambling stuff for the average citizen (and I'm a decidedly amateur bettor, but I still know more than the average citizen), but this is the type of information the daily fantasy sites need to be pushing out there. Market something that's a fair game, where the player can know what he's up against and can decide whether it's worth the effort to become a more efficient player, and I'm 100% behind you.

 

EDIT: and if it's just a lottery ticket, that's fine too. Just disclose and let people decide.

Edited November 11, 2015 by The Frankish Reich

[Protocal69]

Thanks. Good information. Do they publish the rake for various game types? I know this is all kind of insider sports gambling stuff for the average citizen (and I'm a decidedly amateur bettor, but I still know more than the average citizen), but this is the type of information the daily fantasy sites need to be pushing out there. Market something that's a fair game, where the player can know what he's up against and can decide whether it's worth the effort to become a more efficient player, and I'm 100% behind you.

 

EDIT: and if it's just a lottery ticket, that's fine too. Just disclose and let people decide.

Naw they don't publish this information, but I think you can do the math for each game type. For example after the game has started just take the number of entries and multiple that by the entry fee and subtract that from the prize pool. What's left over is the rake for that game. So the percentages would vary based upon that info. Head up and 50/50's are a little more straight forward. Those are almost around 10%

[KRT88]

This from the state that sponsors NYSlooto and OTB.

 

hypocrisy at it's best.

 

Why we are at it, online poker should be legal and regulated too.

[jr1]

Fanduel and DraftKings are "gambling" but the NYSE isn't.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Not intimate knowledge of the game, intimate knowledge of what all the players (fan duel and draftkings players) were doing. They had access to all of the data so they could see trends and create lineups to take advantage of that. So not football knowledge, insider knowledge. A HUGE advantage.

I should have elaborated on the word “game" as in the system and not the actual football game itself.

I get a kick out of one of their commercials Why sign a meh RB when you can ...

I think it was DraftKings

http://www.ispot.tv/ad/AY5K/draftkings-one-week-fantasy-football-meh-featuring-matthew-berry

[Protocal69]

Fanduel and DraftKings are "gambling" but the NYinvestingE isn't.

Exactly. If you know anything about option investing it is the same thing. In option "investing" either you take the side that the stock price will go down or up. It's a contract between 2 people who can't see each other. It's a zero sum game. So in many ways you are gambling that you are right. For more info Google CBOE or option investing and look at some training videos if you are not in the know

Edited November 11, 2015 by Protocal69

[GunnerBill]

Being a Brit I have no idea why sports gambling is so frowned upon in the US. It is an everyday part of life here. You go into a soccer stadium and every major club has a "betting partner" firm in the stadium taking bets on the game, you watch a major soccer game on TV and every other advert at half time is for a sports betting firm. It hasn't caused the breakdwon of society as we know it or led to major deprivation.....

 

Why is it so frowned on in America? Or do I not even want to know.....?

[machine gun kelly]

This is about their take. Horse racing is fine now in NYS because of OTB.

 

I could care less if you want to squander your entire savings if your that dumb. If your not a risky gambler and want to have fun each week with $50, and have the income, great. Your not hurting anyone, and if a capitalist business has found a way to create a business model for you and them to profit, then what is the problem.

 

Personal choices are just that. Morally, i teach my kids not to gamble, nor do i for the most part other than a fun $20 bet with a friend over the Bills vs. whoever a buddy's team we are playing.

 

This is typical NYS over legislating everything. It's also why you guys pay more taxes than most states in the US.

[GG]

 

The NHL as a league invested something like $300,000 into these sites. How is that not a conflict of interests?

 

It's not because NHL is investing in a site that will promote more interest in the players & the sport. The conflict would only come if for some reason the NHL starts influencing the games to give certain players advantage in points. I don't see that happening.

[TheFunPolice]

BUT DO THEY GIVE OUT TROPHIES?!

[DasNootz]

I've played for 2 years with modest casual success (turned $200 into $1200 playing NFL games cash games only). Bottom line, it's speculation and not investment. You have some idea of what it takes to build a successful lineup, but you have no control over the outcome. All you can do is put yourself in the best possible position to take advantage of luck. Like anything in life, those that put in the most resources (time, knowledge and money) have the opportunity to be the biggest winners and should be able to eek out an advantage over those that are more casual. To that extent, I see it no differently than internet poker. I believe that both should be legal with heavy government oversight to make sure that those on the inside are taking only the rake and nothing more. Both have failed once either perception or reality showed that the industry itself was stealing from the consumer. In theory both should be largely profitable without enterprises without having to steal, but greed is greed.

 

It is far less "luck" dependent than the lotto or scratch offs. It's also much less likely to impact the outcome of events than typical sports betting or horse racing, where one person or one team can significantly impact the outcome if paid off.

 

*for the record - I do not believe that the "scandal" earlier this season was cheating, but without checks and balances in place, there's was nothing in place to prevent something more sinister from occurring. It's a shame that the AG has ignored the steps that have taken place between that date and yesterday. The government also gets taxes on any earnings over $600 in a given year, and the luxury of not allowing the losers to claim losses unless they're a professional gambler.

Edited November 11, 2015 by DasNootz

[reddogblitz]

I think it's funny/interesting how they call it a one week fantasy league instead of what it is. gambling. It's like how Uber calls a taxi service "ride sharing" to avoid Taxi laws. FanDuel/DraftKings are selling gambling . They sell the adrenaline rush and thrill. That's because you're gambling.

 

It also makes me a little uneasy with the NFL getting into bed with gambling. Especially since it would be a lot easier for refs to control one players output than it would be to ensure that a certain teams wins or loses.

 

Whether gambling should be legal is another question. However, they are just flat out lying as to what they're selling.

[DasNootz]

I think it's funny/interesting how they call it a one week fantasy league instead of what it is. gambling. It's like how Uber calls a taxi service "ride sharing" to avoid Taxi laws. FanDuel/DraftKings are selling gambling . They sell the adrenaline rush and thrill. That's because you're gambling.

 

It also makes me a little uneasy with the NFL getting into bed with gambling. Especially since it would be a lot easier for refs to control one players output than it would be to ensure that a certain teams wins or loses.

 

Whether gambling should be legal is another question. However, they are just flat out lying as to what they're selling.

If the refs could manipulate a game for 1 player, it would have very minimal impact on those lining the pockets of the ref. Best case scenario is that Hedge Fund X puts $1 million dollars into lineups with Karlos Williams exclusively, and the refs do what?... agree not to call holding on his TD runs? Do they collectively agree to call holding on TD runs by all other RBs in the league in vast conspiracy? I think its much easier and plausible for a ref to ensure a certain team wins or loses vs a point spread.

[Nick the Greek]

The thing is a total scam.. Ban it

[Tsaikotic]

I still have nightmares with that annoying announcer's voice saying "Faaaaaan....10. Once again the codeword is FAAAAAAN....10."

 

Or whatever.

 

Radio ads are generally annoying as all hell, but those Fanduel ads are among the worst of all time.

 

And that includes VW of Orchard Park's "German Comforteering" campaign that made me want to go strangle kittens.

 

 

what about " Zoom..Zoom"..lol

[Buffalo Barbarian]

ny wasn't getting money so they shut em down, once they get their payoff I'm sure they will be legal again

[billykaykay]

I've played for 2 years with modest casual success (turned $200 into $1200 playing NFL games cash games only). Bottom line, it's speculation and not investment. You have some idea of what it takes to build a successful lineup, but you have no control over the outcome. All you can do is put yourself in the best possible position to take advantage of luck. Like anything in life, those that put in the most resources (time, knowledge and money) have the opportunity to be the biggest winners and should be able to eek out an advantage over those that are more casual. To that extent, I see it no differently than internet poker. I believe that both should be legal with heavy government oversight to make sure that those on the inside are taking only the rake and nothing more. Both have failed once either perception or reality showed that the industry itself was stealing from the consumer. In theory both should be largely profitable without enterprises without having to steal, but greed is greed.

 

It is far less "luck" dependent than the lotto or scratch offs. It's also much less likely to impact the outcome of events than typical sports betting or horse racing, where one person or one team can significantly impact the outcome if paid off.

 

*for the record - I do not believe that the "scandal" earlier this season was cheating, but without checks and balances in place, there's was nothing in place to prevent something more sinister from occurring. It's a shame that the AG has ignored the steps that have taken place between that date and yesterday. The government also gets taxes on any earnings over $600 in a given year, and the luxury of not allowing the losers to claim losses unless they're a professional gambler.

I think you can claim losses against winnings.

[KD in CA]

The government also gets taxes on any earnings over $600 in a given year, and the luxury of not allowing the losers to claim losses unless they're a professional gambler.

 

Sidebar: The state (and feds) are supposed to get taxes on every dollar. Just because there's no obligation for DK to send you a 1099 if your proceeds are under $600 doesn't mean you aren't supposed to report those earnings (net of losses) and pay taxes on them.

[Kkspike]

I play fan duel and it's so easy.i put down $25 and in three weeks I rolled it into $432,653.22

[mannc]

Please ban them, if only so I never have to see or hear another Draft Kings or FanDuel commercial!

 

 

+10000000

Edited November 11, 2015 by mannc

[simpleman]

The question is not are they legal or not. They are gambling. Which is illegal unless specifically authorized by state law.

If you want gambling to be legal, work within the system to legalize gambling. Until then, they are gambling, which is illegal.

I do believe that all NFL owners, employees (including refs, players, coaches) should be banned from having an interest in Football gambling. The temptation and the risk is too great. I read where the two companies in question make more than the NFL does per week during the season.

[GG]

The question is not are they legal or not. They are gambling. Which is illegal unless specifically authorized by state law.

If you want gambling to be legal, work within the system to legalize gambling. Until then, they are gambling, which is illegal.

I do believe that all NFL owners, employees (including refs, players, coaches) should be banned from having an interest in Football gambling. The temptation and the risk is too great. I read where the two companies in question make more than the NFL does per week during the season.

 

It is a lot closer to investing than it is to gambling. Just because you are putting money into a venture that may pay out a higher amount does not make it gambling. Why do you think that the earlier outcry was likened to insider trading?

 

Fantasy games have a measure of luck, but there is much more skill involved than pure luck.

[bobobonators]

 

This is where I disagree. It is 10% thought and 90% luck.

 

If I choose Blake Bortles and he throws 2 TDs against the Rams

You chose Aaron Rodgers and he gets hurt.

 

You were just unlucky there even though we both put thought into it.

 

I hear ya. Luck is required in any league - whether it be seasonal or daily - but at the end of the day, there's no doubt in my mind that over the long run, the cream rises to the top in terms of "talent" or "skill" when it comes to certain people playing fantasy leagues. When I was younger, I had my own formulas for selecting players in MLB roto 5x5 leagues and I'd finish top 3 in roughly 70% of the leagues I joined over the years. Without question, much of that success was also due to the time I dedicated towards those fantasy leagues and I simply stopped playing b/c as I got older I just couldn't dedicate that much time to playing fantasy baseball anymore. But in every fantasy league you always have three kinds of people:

 

1. those that are relatively clueless when it comes to strategy in fantasy sports but play b/c they still think it's fun

2. those that do know what they're doing and do have a gameplan but life gets in the way and they simply can't dedicate the needed time to dominate or win consistently

3. and those that have both the time and the strategy in place to win or place near the top of their leagues on a consistent basis

 

In the end, all of these fantasy leagues will be legal folks - there's just too much demand and too much money involved for them not to be.

 

But yeh, I hate the commercials.

[Nihilarian]

Please ban them, if only so I never have to see or hear another Draft Kings or FanDuel commercial!

 

On the way to the opener from Vermont we listened to Sirius NFL, then to GR55, I must have heard about 50,000 ads for those two companies. Then when I walked into the Ralph to be greeted by another 1,0000 FanDuel signs I REALLY thought my head was going to explode...

 

 

 

But anyway, have you guys heard about these one week fantasy leagues where you can earn real cash??

 

Good lord I'm so sick of those commercials.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

The hypocrisy is pretty bad. You can walk in almost any bar in WNY and find a Keno machine to play or buy scratch-off tickets out of a vending machine. Can't tell you how many times I've been stuck behind someone buying hundreds of dollars worth of Lottery tickets at the gas station register.

 

You are missing the point. All those lottery games are regulated. Draft Kings and FanDuel are making money in part because they are escaping the costs of actual regulation by pretending not to be gambling. That's the problem, not any alleged hypocrisy.

[bobobonators]

 

You are missing the point. All those lottery games are regulated. Draft Kings and FanDuel are making money in part because they are escaping the costs of actual regulation by pretending not to be gambling. That's the problem, not any alleged hypocrisy.

Cbs, espn, yahoo and countless others have been making money on countless forms of fantasy sports over the years and those are legal and not regulated by a governing body.

 

This is all a dog and pony show. Don't make it out to be about regulation.

[Protocal69]

 

You are missing the point. All those lottery games are regulated. Draft Kings and FanDuel are making money in part because they are escaping the costs of actual regulation by pretending not to be gambling. That's the problem, not any alleged hypocrisy.

But that's the thing I'm not sure they are making money. Yes they bring in a lot of money but they spend it away on commercials and advertising because they need to bring in more fish (newbies)to add to their rake. They have investors that have invested 100's of millions of dollars on each site who are looking for ROI Edited November 11, 2015 by Protocal69

[KD in CA]

 

You are missing the point. All those lottery games are regulated. Draft Kings and FanDuel are making money in part because they are escaping the costs of actual regulation by pretending not to be gambling. That's the problem, not any alleged hypocrisy.

 

The costs of regulation....lol. I assume that would be the cost of NY State hiring five items as many useless employees as necessary to mismanage the whole operation if they were running it?

 

NYS -- the same brilliant folks who managed to bankrupt a horse race betting operation.