Salary cap question, Leonard Floyd’s dead cap

[hondo in seattle]

5 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

They can make contract extensions, and get pay cuts from other players as well.

 

Restructuring contracts is not their only option.

 

You're right, of course.  I shouldn't have said, "only by restructuring some contracts." 

 

Though Beane will almost certainly restructure some contracts to give himself some cap space.  While I understand the necessity of it sometimes, I hate restructuring contracts because I don't want a cash-strapped future. 

 

I'm hoping he gets a couple of guys to take pay cuts.   

[DCofNC]

10 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

You don't know how the NFL works. I'm not trying to be mean but contracts just don't work that way in the NFL. Very few have large amounts of guaranteed money. So players agree to huge signing bonuses to get the most money up front. Teams add years to lessen the cap hit in the present. These dead cap hits only get worse if you cut the player early. 

And it's interesting the only player you didn't list who actually can and should be cut, but actually makes sense for both parties to agree to a paycut is White.

I understand the cap and the rules very well, White is already gone in my mind.  You don’t understand, I am saying, blow it up, eat ***** this year, and deal with it. Then you go into next year with a large amount of salary cap to work with.  This team as it is, with the cap that’s left after kicking the can down the road again, is t good enough to win a Superbowl and to me, there’s no point in another year of an early playoff exit.  
 

I don’t want to be good, I want to be great.  Greatness takes sacrifice and admitting you have a problem.   Remember year one of Beane?  He trimmed the fat off roster.  The problem is, he turned around and added a lot of fat because they continued to miss in the draft.  To make up for bad drafting, they had to pay veterans.  Now you have one of the oldest rosters in the NFL and no way out without suffering.   So clean it up, deal with it for a year and move on.  The defense is a disaster after spending years trying to be a great defense.  

 

They have one good player on the entire DL that they drafted.  The best hope is to sign a 33 yr old DT and pray he stays healthy to keep the run game in check.  There is not one impact DE on the roster, the LB core is ok when Milano is back, the S position is a gapping hole, CB is weak and expensive.  What are you trying to save?  Dump White, Miller, Floyd’s gone, AJE will be priced out, Jones is 83 by NFL standards, you have the least athletic CBs of any contending team.  The only saving grace is LB and that’s assuming they can stay healthy.   This is the year to eat it and start over. 

 

The offense needs a talent infusion as well, but at least Kincaid looks good, Knox is over paid for his production, Diggs has fallen flat the back half of the last two years, I’m not excited about paying that guy so much either, so move him for whatever you can get, and you are really no worse off in the short term, and have room to breath long term.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

I don't care whose tie dyed hats he wears.  Bring him back.

Edited February 20 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

I understand the cap and the rules very well, White is already gone in my mind.  You don’t understand, I am saying, blow it up, eat ***** this year, and deal with it. Then you go into next year with a large amount of salary cap to work with.  This team as it is, with the cap that’s left after kicking the can down the road again, is t good enough to win a Superbowl and to me, there’s no point in another year of an early playoff exit.  
 

I don’t want to be good, I want to be great.  Greatness takes sacrifice and admitting you have a problem.   Remember year one of Beane?  He trimmed the fat off roster.  The problem is, he turned around and added a lot of fat because they continued to miss in the draft.  To make up for bad drafting, they had to pay veterans.  Now you have one of the oldest rosters in the NFL and no way out without suffering.   So clean it up, deal with it for a year and move on.  The defense is a disaster after spending years trying to be a great defense.  

 

They have one good player on the entire DL that they drafted.  The best hope is to sign a 33 yr old DT and pray he stays healthy to keep the run game in check.  There is not one impact DE on the roster, the LB core is ok when Milano is back, the S position is a gapping hole, CB is weak and expensive.  What are you trying to save?  Dump White, Miller, Floyd’s gone, AJE will be priced out, Jones is 83 by NFL standards, you have the least athletic CBs of any contending team.  The only saving grace is LB and that’s assuming they can stay healthy.   This is the year to eat it and start over. 

 

The offense needs a talent infusion as well, but at least Kincaid looks good, Knox is over paid for his production, Diggs has fallen flat the back half of the last two years, I’m not excited about paying that guy so much either, so move him for whatever you can get, and you are really no worse off in the short term, and have room to breath long term.

 

I somewhat agree with blowing it up, but disagree about a reset year.. it's malpractice to do that in a prime year of someone like Josh Allen. 

 

The Offense comes back largely in tact.  We can easily bring back David Edwards as OL6 and Ty Johnson as RB2, and then we're essentially the same exact Offense as last year, but with the ability to upgrade in the passing game, even if Diggs takes a step back.  Shakir Year 3, Kincaid Year 2, Cook Year 2 as feature back, Year 2 of Brady and the ability to draft 1 or 2 WR's in the top half of the draft to improve on Gabe Davis and Co.

 

The Offense could be the best it's been since we drafted Josh Allen.

 

Now the Defense on the other hand.. that's where we need a KC '22 like draft to get younger and pray that Von Miller is back to 80-85% of what he was pre-injury.  

 

Will our Front Office take that risk or are they going to kick the can to keep paying out a bunch of moderately expensive vet contracts on that side of the ball? 

[DCofNC]

31 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

I somewhat agree with blowing it up, but disagree about a reset year.. it's malpractice to do that in a prime year of someone like Josh Allen. 

 

The Offense comes back largely in tact.  We can easily bring back David Edwards as OL6 and Ty Johnson as RB2, and then we're essentially the same exact Offense as last year, but with the ability to upgrade in the passing game, even if Diggs takes a step back.  Shakir Year 3, Kincaid Year 2, Cook Year 2 as feature back, Year 2 of Brady and the ability to draft 1 or 2 WR's in the top half of the draft to improve on Gabe Davis and Co.

 

The Offense could be the best it's been since we drafted Josh Allen.

 

Now the Defense on the other hand.. that's where we need a KC '22 like draft to get younger and pray that Von Miller is back to 80-85% of what he was pre-injury.  

 

Will our Front Office take that risk or are they going to kick the can to keep paying out a bunch of moderately expensive vet contracts on that side of the ball? 

This is where I disagree, stop hoping JA can carry you to a title.  He’s proven he needs help.  I’m not sure how many more years he can play like a mad man, trying to hide the flaws, but it’s time to take a year and say, “ if you can go full Mahomes and win in a rebuild year, good for you, but no expectations”.  Continuing to add condiments to a turd sandwich won’t make you a 5 star meal, you need to throw it out and start with fresh ingredients.

[SCBills]

3 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

This is where I disagree, stop hoping JA can carry you to a title.  He’s proven he needs help.  I’m not sure how many more years he can play like a mad man, trying to hide the flaws, but it’s time to take a year and say, “ if you can go full Mahomes and win in a rebuild year, good for you, but no expectations”.  Continuing to add condiments to a turd sandwich won’t make you a 5 star meal, you need to throw it out and start with fresh ingredients.

 

What do you disagree with?

 

I just advocated for signing vet minimum/cheap players, drafting two WR's in the first 4 rounds to replace Gabe, Harty, Sherfield and then spending the rest of the draft on defense to fill in around Von, Rousseau, Oliver, Jonathan, Milano, Bernard, Williams, Spector, Johnson, Douglas, Benford, Elam and Poyer.

 

Moving off Diggs and Von doesn't seem feasible this year, Knox we can move after this year, so our options to truly blow it up this season are cutting White (I'm ok with that), Morse, Poyer and Douglas.  

[DCofNC]

8 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

What do you disagree with?

 

I just advocated for signing vet minimum/cheap players, drafting two WR's in the first 4 rounds to replace Gabe, Harty, Sherfield and then spending the rest of the draft on defense to fill in around Von, Rousseau, Oliver, Jonathan, Milano, Bernard, Williams, Spector, Johnson, Douglas, Benford, Elam and Poyer.

 

Moving off Diggs and Von doesn't seem feasible this year, Knox we can move after this year, so our options to truly blow it up this season are cutting White (I'm ok with that), Morse, Poyer and Douglas.  

I’m saying, eat it this year.  Eat the dead cap, cut the fat and rely on rookies/coaches to make a difference.  Diggs and Miller CAN both go, it’s going to hurt.  I’d take it for one year vs another year of nothing and no advancement towards a title. 

[ColoradoBills]

9 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I think cash-to-cap is an intriguing idea though transitioning to it would be painful.

 

Yeah, most teams restructure contracts.  Most teams are NOT sitting $55 million over the cap (using the OTC figure) and forced to restructure just to get under the cap even with 22 FAs no longer under contract.  

The Chief, in contrast, won a SB and are $15 million under the cap.  They have the 2nd least dead money ($457,000) in the league because they don't continually kick the can down the road.   

 

How do we catch up to their roster strength when they have $70 million more to spend?  

 

KC has done a good job with the cap but don't let these current numbers hide what is in front of them.

They have some big $ guys on UFA right now.  Jones, Sneed, Danna and Gay to name a few.

If those guys were under contract the numbers would be drastically different.

 

KC did a mini-reset the year they let Hill go and got in a good cap situation while still dressing a good team.

I'm in the group thinking the Bills need to reset this year.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

19 hours ago, Virgil said:

I don’t get this.  Didn’t he sign a one year deal?  How is there a cap hit this year?

 

Void years.  you can lessen the cap blow by basically spreading base salary as void years into the future.  They all trigger the next season though. 

2 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

KC has done a good job with the cap but don't let these current numbers hide what is in front of them.

They have some big $ guys on UFA right now.  Jones, Sneed, Danna and Gay to name a few.

If those guys were under contract the numbers would be drastically different.

 

KC did a mini-reset the year they let Hill go and got in a good cap situation while still dressing a good team.

I'm in the group thinking the Bills need to reset this year.  

 

Yep - they had a tremendous draft that year - but they had been stashing a lot of talent over the last few drafts.  

 

Even whiffing on CEH in 2020 - they still nailed gay, snead, danna.  

 

Assume Chenal replaces gay.  They also drafted an end at 31 in 2023 who can potentially replace danna.  This would allow them to pay sneed and Jones.  

[Matt_In_NH]

3 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Void years.  you can lessen the cap blow by basically spreading base salary as void years into the future.  They all trigger the next season though. 

Also, this was sparsely used before covid.  People think the Saints did some magic and proved the cap does not exist.  However look at their page and look at all the void money they have in future years.  They ran that team like idiots and never got anything for it after their one and only SB.  You dont have to spend like a drunken sailer to win the SB.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

27 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

What do you disagree with?

 

I just advocated for signing vet minimum/cheap players, drafting two WR's in the first 4 rounds to replace Gabe, Harty, Sherfield and then spending the rest of the draft on defense to fill in around Von, Rousseau, Oliver, Jonathan, Milano, Bernard, Williams, Spector, Johnson, Douglas, Benford, Elam and Poyer.

 

Moving off Diggs and Von doesn't seem feasible this year, Knox we can move after this year, so our options to truly blow it up this season are cutting White (I'm ok with that), Morse, Poyer and Douglas.  

 

White cannot play under the contract he has right now - so he's either cut or taking a pretty substantial paycut and loosening guarantees.  

 

I wouldn't cut douglas as he was one of our best players down the stretch, and the base salary number is reasonable.  He'd also have a pretty solid trade value still.  

 

Morse, if we drafted someone at C in the last couple of years maybe.  I know bates is prepared to step in, but I'm not sure how i feel on depth.

 

Poyer's cap hit is 7.7 and you get 5.7 in savings.  Seems like a lot, but then you have to replace him and its basically the same.  Depends how FA pans out here, but it probably eases the transition to keep one of Poyer/Hyde.  Most especially since the defensive line is in such a massive state of flux. 

1 minute ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Also, this was sparsely used before covid.  People think the Saints did some magic and proved the cap does not exist.  However look at their page and look at all the void money they have in future years.  They ran that team like idiots and never got anything for it after their one and only SB.  You dont have to spend like a drunken sailer to win the SB.

 

Correct - they kept a flawed core together to try and win as much with brees.  But for whatever reason they've continued doing all of that without the winning formula.  Most of the players who have them are solid players.  But they have guys with high cap hits who are either old or injured or both, and they have no way of getting any cap savings by releasing them.  

 

Rams did it and went to one and won another.  So its not necessarily a bad strategy, just have to be careful who you extend or you'll end up having to dump good players when you cant afford to extend them.  

[Beck Water]

20 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Leonard Floyd’s contract voids today. Costing us $4.3 in dead cap space for 2024.

 

If we re-sign him later does that erase the dead cap?

 

 

 

No, as far as I’m aware the void years stay void even if we re-sign him to a new contract, so the dead money stays dead.

[jlgarsh]

LOL at the Bills having 5 players on the list. Oh well

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

I understand the cap and the rules very well, White is already gone in my mind.  You don’t understand, I am saying, blow it up, eat ***** this year, and deal with it. Then you go into next year with a large amount of salary cap to work with.  This team as it is, with the cap that’s left after kicking the can down the road again, is t good enough to win a Superbowl and to me, there’s no point in another year of an early playoff exit.  
 

I don’t want to be good, I want to be great.  Greatness takes sacrifice and admitting you have a problem.   Remember year one of Beane?  He trimmed the fat off roster.  The problem is, he turned around and added a lot of fat because they continued to miss in the draft.  To make up for bad drafting, they had to pay veterans.  Now you have one of the oldest rosters in the NFL and no way out without suffering.   So clean it up, deal with it for a year and move on.  The defense is a disaster after spending years trying to be a great defense.  

 

They have one good player on the entire DL that they drafted.  The best hope is to sign a 33 yr old DT and pray he stays healthy to keep the run game in check.  There is not one impact DE on the roster, the LB core is ok when Milano is back, the S position is a gapping hole, CB is weak and expensive.  What are you trying to save?  Dump White, Miller, Floyd’s gone, AJE will be priced out, Jones is 83 by NFL standards, you have the least athletic CBs of any contending team.  The only saving grace is LB and that’s assuming they can stay healthy.   This is the year to eat it and start over. 

 

The offense needs a talent infusion as well, but at least Kincaid looks good, Knox is over paid for his production, Diggs has fallen flat the back half of the last two years, I’m not excited about paying that guy so much either, so move him for whatever you can get, and you are really no worse off in the short term, and have room to breath long term.

 

For two years now I’ve said that the target for a roster reset of expensive vets was next off-season, give or take one season due to circumstances. It’s a matter of how those contracts are structured and how old the players are. I think the Von Miller and Tre White injuries should move it up to this off-season, but I don’t know if they will do it. I’ve no idea how warm McDermott and/or bean think their seats are - and I stress that their  perceptions of this are far more important than the reality. How they proceed will tell us a lot. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

25 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

No, as far as I’m aware the void years stay void even if we re-sign him to a new contract, so the dead money stays dead.

Yeah I get it now. It was just a cap manipulation. Instead of taking on his cap for 1 year they spread it out. He was less than $3 million cap last year.

 

Technically they can do the same thing this year.

Edited February 20 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Beast]

Floyd did nothing for the Bills down the stretch.

 

Time to move on.

[Beck Water]

Just now, jlgarsh said:

LOL at the Bills having 5 players on the list. Oh well

 

Yeah, before/when Beane and McDermott arrived local Buffalo press (Tim Graham etc) pretty much threw Whaley “under the bus” for how few drafted players were still on the Bills team and Beane threw the previous admin under the bus for the cap and FA situation.

 

Well, many of the players Whaley drafted and the Bills moved on from (Stephon Gilmore, Ronald Darby, Robert Woods, Marquise Goodwin, Shaq Lawson, even practice squad late round picks like Jonathan Williams and Kevon Seymore) were still playing in the league last year, some for very good teams (Dallas, Ravens, Houston, Browns, Shaq back with the Bills, Seymore with the Ravens PS).   Others are out of the league now, but contributed to other teams for several years after the Bills moved on (Ragland, G John Miller, Preston Brown, Russ Cockrell).  It’s not like they couldn’t play football.

 

And our FA and cap situation are if anything, worse than they were in 2017

 

The difference is that back then, the best we had to show for it was a #4 overall defense and no playoffs.  Now we have playoff wins the last 4 seasons and consistently top-10 offense and defense, usually top 5.  I enjoy that a heck of a lot more than the drought years, I get it to some that’s not good enough because from a championship we are still falling short.

 

Anyway, Beane has been quietly mortgaging the Bills cap situation with signing FA using void years since 2020, because his draft picks haven’t quite cut the mustard.

 

It will be interesting to see how he manages this season, the most challenging for him I think because so many of our top paid players aren’t living up to their contracts and it’s a very good question whether that can change (Diggs, Von Miller, Tre White)

[Starr Almighty]

https://www.si.com/nfl/cardinals/news/report-2024-nfl-salary-cap-could-hit-250-million

 

This would lower it without any moves not completely but it would be a huge help

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Anyway, Beane has been quietly mortgaging the Bills cap situation with signing FA using void years since 2020, because his draft picks haven’t quite cut the mustard.

 

It will be interesting to see how he manages this season, the most challenging for him I think because so many of our top paid players aren’t living up to their contracts and it’s a very good question whether that can change (Diggs, Von Miller, Tre White)

 

Beane argues, and it is not untrue, that the covid cap reduction threw all his plans out of kilter. There is some truth to that. Teams who were at the start of a Championship window in that period were hit the hardest because the last couple of years they had with a rookie QB as buyers in the market got sucked away by a reduced cap. However, you are right..... there is also money he has had to throw at Oline and Dline that is a direct result of the misses on the likes of Cody Ford and Boogie Basham and the fact that AJE and Rousseau were not in themselves difference makers. He is about to be in the same spot with Douglas when if Elam was ready, even with Tre's injuries, you should have been able to transition more smoothly to a cheap deal. 

 

So I do give him a bit of leeway on the covid cap implications but also, yea, he has gone hunting for difference makers in FA to cover one or two of his misses. 

7 minutes ago, Starr Almighty said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/cardinals/news/report-2024-nfl-salary-cap-could-hit-250-million

 

This would lower it without any moves not completely but it would be a huge help

 

I heard $252m mooted on Sunday by a twitter account of a guy who is pretty plugged in. That extra $10-12m would be huge for the Bills. 

[Billl]

8 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

For two years now I’ve said that the target for a roster reset of expensive vets was next off-season, give or take one season due to circumstances. It’s a matter of how those contracts are structured and how old the players are. I think the Von Miller and Tre White injuries should move it up to this off-season, but I don’t know if they will do it. I’ve no idea how warm McDermott and/or bean think their seats are - and I stress that their  perceptions of this are far more important than the reality. How they proceed will tell us a lot. 

This is the crux of the matter right here.  A front office is always serving two masters.  They are trying to win a Superbowl, but they're also trying to keep their jobs.  If you believe, as I do, that the best path to a championship is to rip off the band-aid now, take your lumps in 2024, and target 2025 and beyond, the it's a question of whether McBeane feel they have enough job security to survive a 7-10 type season.

 

To me, Beane is acting more like a guy who would rather continuing to kick the can down the road for as long as he can win 10 games and make the playoffs rather than someone who is singularly focused on winning a championship.  It's why I think this board directs too much blame at McDermott and not enough at Beane.

 

It's not just cap management, either.  Even the draft picks have been safe lately.  A 24 year old TE in the first round and interior OL in the second are solid pieces, but they're relatively high floor, low ceiling picks.  They're not the type you take when your mentality is "superstar or bust".  They're the type you target when you feel that you've got enough firepower on the roster already and need to supplement them with quality supporting pieces.

[ddaryl]

1 hour ago, DCofNC said:

I’m saying, eat it this year.  Eat the dead cap, cut the fat and rely on rookies/coaches to make a difference.  Diggs and Miller CAN both go, it’s going to hurt.  I’d take it for one year vs another year of nothing and no advancement towards a title. 

rip the bandaid off, I agree. Salary Cap Gymnastics can work for a couple of years but at some point you have to reset

[FireChans]

40 minutes ago, Billl said:

This is the crux of the matter right here.  A front office is always serving two masters.  They are trying to win a Superbowl, but they're also trying to keep their jobs.  If you believe, as I do, that the best path to a championship is to rip off the band-aid now, take your lumps in 2024, and target 2025 and beyond, the it's a question of whether McBeane feel they have enough job security to survive a 7-10 type season.

 

To me, Beane is acting more like a guy who would rather continuing to kick the can down the road for as long as he can win 10 games and make the playoffs rather than someone who is singularly focused on winning a championship.  It's why I think this board directs too much blame at McDermott and not enough at Beane.

 

It's not just cap management, either.  Even the draft picks have been safe lately.  A 24 year old TE in the first round and interior OL in the second are solid pieces, but they're relatively high floor, low ceiling picks.  They're not the type you take when your mentality is "superstar or bust".  They're the type you target when you feel that you've got enough firepower on the roster already and need to supplement them with quality supporting pieces.

I think that Beane has been guilty of flip-flopping team building philosophies trying to meet in the middle, sometimes even in the same draft. 
 

Our top picks, too often, have been where need meets BPA. Which is fine sometimes, but sometimes you pass on better talent to fill more pressing roster holes. Like Boogie Basham, whose ceiling was a JAG level player.

 

In the later rounds, Beane has done extraordinarily well at just targeting guys that can play, which is why we have a solid hit rate on players who are NFL caliber, if not superstars.

 

For me, the Kincaid pick wasn’t that safe. To draft ANOTHER TE when you just gave your developed 3rd round TE a big contract is actually risky. It’s targeting the best player left on your board and expecting the coaches to make it work (shout out Ken Dorsey on that regard).

 

The Torrence pick to me was clear as their annual “BPA meets need” pick and it worked out so far so all’s well that ends well. But once Saffold predictably played awful in 2022, you knew IOL was coming high. 
 

In the NFL draft, you can be right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the right reasons, and the ultimate barometer is not said and done until about 3-4 years after. 
 

Even the Chiefs took CEH in the first, a colossal blunder. They won two Superbowls after so who cares? But the process was clearly wrong there imo. 
 

Beane’s FA philosophy early in his career was bargain bin shop a handful of guys, and whoever panned out was the starter, and he would cut or trade away the rest, particularly on OL. That gave him a lot of draft flexibility. Now we are dealing with a much tighter cap, and he can’t do that.

Edited February 20 by FireChans

[Beck Water]

21 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Yikes. So technically whatever we sign him to later you can basically add $4.3 million to it. That would be terrible cap management by Brandon Beane. Doubt they’ll extend him today.

 

Im guessing they won’t be bringing Floyd back. Should’ve extended him.

 

I don’t think Floyd wanted to be extended, at least not at any price the Bills were willing to offer him.

 

Floyd signed a 1-year “prove it” deal with the Rams after he was cut by Da Bears, then signed a 4 year, $64M deal with the Rams, helped them win a Super Bowl, played decently again in 2022, and was cut with 2 years left on his contract and something like $42M paid out.  

 

He signed with the Bills at what he regarded as a 30% discount to his last 1 year “prove it” contract of $10M with the Rams, and he undoubtedly wanted a multi-year deal, probably north of $10M/yr (his last 4 year was $16M/year and he earned $21M in 2 years)

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Leonard Floyd’s contract voids today. Costing us $4.3 in dead cap space for 2024.

 

If we re-sign him later does that erase the dead cap?

 

 

Did anyone notice that their were no Chiefs on the list ?

[Sweats]

10 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think that Beane has been guilty of flip-flopping team building philosophies trying to meet in the middle, sometimes even in the same draft. 
 

Our top picks, too often, have been where need meets BPA. Which is fine sometimes, but sometimes you pass on better talent to fill more pressing roster holes. Like Boogie Basham, whose ceiling was a JAG level player.

 

In the later rounds, Beane has done extraordinarily well at just targeting guys that can play, which is why we have a solid hit rate on players who are NFL caliber, if not superstars.

 

For me, the Kincaid pick wasn’t that safe. To draft ANOTHER TE when you just gave your developed 3rd round TE a big contract is actually risky. It’s targeting the best player left on your board and expecting the coaches to make it work (shout out Ken Dorsey on that regard).

 

The Torrence pick to me was clear as their annual “BPA meets need” pick and it worked out so far so all’s well that ends well. But once Saffold predictably played awful in 2022, you knew IOL was coming high. 
 

In the NFL draft, you can be right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the right reasons, and the ultimate barometer is not said and done until about 3-4 years after. 
 

Even the Chiefs took CEH in the first, a colossal blunder. They won two Superbowls after so who cares? But the process was clearly wrong there imo. 
 

Beane’s FA philosophy early in his career was bargain bin shop a handful of guys, and whoever panned out was the starter, and he would cut or trade away the rest, particularly on OL. That gave him a lot of draft flexibility. Now we are dealing with a much tighter cap, and he can’t do that.

 

 

 

I understand your point, however, it's not really that risky when you consider that we were in desperate need of a guy who can play over the middle. We had a huge void when we let Beasley go, so instead of drafting a WR or looking in FA, we draft the BPA in the draft at that position. Also, Kincaid opens up alot more plays in the playbook for middle work, slots, stretching the D and don't forget blocking. The guy is as versatile as they come. 

It was a beautiful pick by our FO in recognizing the need for a positive yardage middle man who can fit into so much more packages and schemes than a plain old WR.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Beane argues, and it is not untrue, that the covid cap reduction threw all his plans out of kilter. There is some truth to that. Teams who were at the start of a Championship window in that period were hit the hardest because the last couple of years they had with a rookie QB as buyers in the market got sucked away by a reduced cap. However, you are right..... there is also money he has had to throw at Oline and Dline that is a direct result of the misses on the likes of Cody Ford and Boogie Basham and the fact that AJE and Rousseau were not in themselves difference makers. He is about to be in the same spot with Douglas when if Elam was ready, even with Tre's injuries, you should have been able to transition more smoothly to a cheap deal. 

 

So I do give him a bit of leeway on the covid cap implications but also, yea, he has gone hunting for difference makers in FA to cover one or two of his misses. 

 

I heard $252m mooted on Sunday by a twitter account of a guy who is pretty plugged in. That extra $10-12m would be huge for the Bills. 

 

Really good post.

 

I do “buy it” that the Covid cap reduction threw.a bit of a wrench into Beane’s plans, but it’s also worth noting that Beane is not above deflecting responsibility.  When he arrived here, he pointed fingers at the previous FO for having lots of FA and a high cap on underperformers.  But, they also had enough talent to get the Bills to the playoffs that year, even with Beane fire-sale ing a couple of players.  And today, we have a high cap on underperformers and lots of FA.  His comment about not sucking badly enough to draft Ja’Marr Chase when asked about the Bengals WR talent was also, IMO, highly disingenuous.  Now the excuse is the Covid cap.

 

You nailed the bottom line - Beane used a number of high draft picks on OL and DL that did not pan out, so he backfilled with FA and more draft picks.  In addition to Cody Ford and Boogie Basham you could add Harrison Phillips and at positions, you could add RB - Devin Singletary and Zack Moss in back to back drafts then another pick on James Cook.  This is not to dunk on Beane as a talent evaluator, because a lot of draft picks just plain don’t turn out to be NFL level and all of those guys (maybe except for Basham) can actually play in the league, and maybe how they’re used and talent development has something to do with it.  But it’s not just “oh the Covid cap blew us up, woe is me!” It’s that Beane took some moon shots in signing Von Miller and last year Leonard Floyd then the Rasul Douglas trade.  

 

The higher cap would be nice

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

This is the crux of the matter right here.  A front office is always serving two masters.  They are trying to win a Superbowl, but they're also trying to keep their jobs.  If you believe, as I do, that the best path to a championship is to rip off the band-aid now, take your lumps in 2024, and target 2025 and beyond, the it's a question of whether McBeane feel they have enough job security to survive a 7-10 type season.

 

To me, Beane is acting more like a guy who would rather continuing to kick the can down the road for as long as he can win 10 games and make the playoffs rather than someone who is singularly focused on winning a championship.  It's why I think this board directs too much blame at McDermott and not enough at Beane.

 

It's not just cap management, either.  Even the draft picks have been safe lately.  A 24 year old TE in the first round and interior OL in the second are solid pieces, but they're relatively high floor, low ceiling picks.  They're not the type you take when your mentality is "superstar or bust".  They're the type you target when you feel that you've got enough firepower on the roster already and need to supplement them with quality supporting pieces.

 

Agreed. I’ve thought the same regarding the early draft picks. As for Beane vs McDermott, I believe that McDermott is pulling the strings. It fits with the timing of the hired, but without knowing that for certain it’s impossible for me to assign responsibility. Lastly, I am certain that getting the new stadium deal led to some moves (Von Miller for one) and that selling PSLs and suites in the new venue will heavily influence some of the decisions made in the next few seasons. 

Edited February 20 by BarleyNY

[Captain Hindsight]

23 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Kicked the can down the road is how I see it…

Pretty much how I budget too 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, DCofNC said:

I understand the cap and the rules very well, White is already gone in my mind.  You don’t understand, I am saying, blow it up, eat ***** this year, and deal with it. Then you go into next year with a large amount of salary cap to work with.  This team as it is, with the cap that’s left after kicking the can down the road again, is t good enough to win a Superbowl and to me, there’s no point in another year of an early playoff exit.  
 

I don’t want to be good, I want to be great.  Greatness takes sacrifice and admitting you have a problem.   Remember year one of Beane?  He trimmed the fat off roster.  The problem is, he turned around and added a lot of fat because they continued to miss in the draft.  To make up for bad drafting, they had to pay veterans.  Now you have one of the oldest rosters in the NFL and no way out without suffering.   So clean it up, deal with it for a year and move on.  The defense is a disaster after spending years trying to be a great defense.  

 

They have one good player on the entire DL that they drafted.  The best hope is to sign a 33 yr old DT and pray he stays healthy to keep the run game in check.  There is not one impact DE on the roster, the LB core is ok when Milano is back, the S position is a gapping hole, CB is weak and expensive.  What are you trying to save?  Dump White, Miller, Floyd’s gone, AJE will be priced out, Jones is 83 by NFL standards, you have the least athletic CBs of any contending team.  The only saving grace is LB and that’s assuming they can stay healthy.   This is the year to eat it and start over. 

 

The offense needs a talent infusion as well, but at least Kincaid looks good, Knox is over paid for his production, Diggs has fallen flat the back half of the last two years, I’m not excited about paying that guy so much either, so move him for whatever you can get, and you are really no worse off in the short term, and have room to breath long term.

Except I really don't think you do. If you cut all those people you mentioned you are looking at tens of millions of dead cap money in one year. You still need to put together a 53 person roster and their are minimum spending numbers per season of real money. 

You think Allen would stay if they tanked an entire season? Would McDermott stay? Do you think the fans would put up with a purposeful nonplayoff season?

What you are suggesting is absolute lunacy. When teams shed contacts it is because they are already terrible like Beane did in year 2 of this regime. 

No team in NFL history has ever tanked a season with a franchise QB. 

You can't be taken seriously posting stuff like this. Cutting even one of these guys with massive dead cap hits is untenable. We were two or three plays away from a Lombardi. We have ten draft picks. 

Even with McDermott they will compete for a SuperBowl with just a few roster tweaks.

 

Now next year they can make some of the moves you suggest. The only decent player on his rookie contract that would be up for an extension would be Rousseau.  And they can let him walk after his fifth year. He is nothing special. They will be able to walk away from Poyer, Diggs, Knox, Dawkins, and Miller after this upcoming season if they want to with or without some post June 1 designations.  I'm not saying I agree with that but they become realistic options.  

[DCofNC]

18 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Except I really don't think you do. If you cut all those people you mentioned you are looking at tens of millions of dead cap money in one year. You still need to put together a 53 person roster and their are minimum spending numbers per season of real money. 

You think Allen would stay if they tanked an entire season? Would McDermott stay? Do you think the fans would put up with a purposeful nonplayoff season?

What you are suggesting is absolute lunacy. When teams shed contacts it is because they are already terrible like Beane did in year 2 of this regime. 

No team in NFL history has ever tanked a season with a franchise QB. 

You can't be taken seriously posting stuff like this. Cutting even one of these guys with massive dead cap hits is untenable. We were two or three plays away from a Lombardi. We have ten draft picks. 

Even with McDermott they will compete for a SuperBowl with just a few roster tweaks.

 

Now next year they can make some of the moves you suggest. The only decent player on his rookie contract that would be up for an extension would be Rousseau.  And they can let him walk after his fifth year. He is nothing special. They will be able to walk away from Poyer, Diggs, Knox, Dawkins, and Miller after this upcoming season if they want to with or without some post June 1 designations.  I'm not saying I agree with that but they become realistic options.  

Allen can’t go anywhere, he’s under contract, same for McClappy.  It’s not a tank, it’s a rebuild, with addition by subtraction.  The Chiefs did it just 2 years ago, unloading Hill, Frank Clark, etc, all “key” players and wound up winning the SB.  The Packers retooled several times during Favre/Rodgers time.  What you are saying is “I’m scared to watch a team cut the fat”.  Poyer’s contract was set up to let him go this year btw, so pretending you have any idea what you are talking about is amusing.   Yes, it will hurt, yes, you will have to part ways/not resign others because of taking the garbage out and yea some may have to be post June 1 designations to make it all spread out and hurt less, but it’s all doable and a lot of it needs to happen.

[BuffaloRebound]

2 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Allen can’t go anywhere, he’s under contract, same for McClappy.  It’s not a tank, it’s a rebuild, with addition by subtraction.  The Chiefs did it just 2 years ago, unloading Hill, Frank Clark, etc, all “key” players and wound up winning the SB.  The Packers retooled several times during Favre/Rodgers time.  What you are saying is “I’m scared to watch a team cut the fat”.  Poyer’s contract was set up to let him go this year btw, so pretending you have any idea what you are talking about is amusing.   Yes, it will hurt, yes, you will have to part ways/not resign others because of taking the garbage out and yea some may have to be post June 1 designations to make it all spread out and hurt less, but it’s all doable and a lot of it needs to happen.

The thing is all the injuries this year showed McBeane you can still win without keeping/paying every decent player you’ve drafted the last 6 years.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

21 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Allen can’t go anywhere, he’s under contract, same for McClappy.  It’s not a tank, it’s a rebuild, with addition by subtraction.  The Chiefs did it just 2 years ago, unloading Hill, Frank Clark, etc, all “key” players and wound up winning the SB.  The Packers retooled several times during Favre/Rodgers time.  What you are saying is “I’m scared to watch a team cut the fat”.  Poyer’s contract was set up to let him go this year btw, so pretending you have any idea what you are talking about is amusing.   Yes, it will hurt, yes, you will have to part ways/not resign others because of taking the garbage out and yea some may have to be post June 1 designations to make it all spread out and hurt less, but it’s all doable and a lot of it needs to happen.

Hill was in the final year of his contract with only $1.45M in dead cap money.  Clark had two years left so there was a significant dead cap hit there around $7M. However in both cases they got considerable draft picks back in return.  At the time Mahommes cap hit was $35M.  Allen's is going to be $47M.  

Diggs and Miler's dead cap hits for 2024 are $32M and $31M. Are you really saying you would take on over $60M in dead cap in one year by getting rid of these two players?  

Can you find another example where a team in a Championship window took on over $60 M in dead cap space? 

How did that retoolling workout for Favre and Rodgers?  Best player of recent note was Davante Adams and they traded him on the tag. Again draft pcik compensation and no dead cap hit.  

You are talking about cutting multiple players with millions in dead cap with zero return.  It's just not going to happen.  

 

[DCofNC]

3 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Hill was in the final year of his contract with only $1.45M in dead cap money.  Clark had two years left so there was a significant dead cap hit there around $7M. However in both cases they got considerable draft picks back in return.  At the time Mahommes cap hit was $35M.  Allen's is going to be $47M.  

Diggs and Miler's dead cap hits for 2024 are $32M and $31M. Are you really saying you would take on over $60M in dead cap in one year by getting rid of these two players?  

Can you find another example where a team in a Championship window took on over $60 M in dead cap space? 

How did that retoolling workout for Favre and Rodgers?  Best player of recent note was Davante Adams and they traded him on the tag. Again draft pcik compensation and no dead cap hit.  

You are talking about cutting multiple players with millions in dead cap with zero return.  It's just not going to happen.  

 

Mahomes contract was restructured to get it to 35M bc you know he’s staying and the same thing can be done with Allen.  You can get some compensation back for Diggs in trade and designate Von Post June 1, so it’s 45M this year and YES, I am saying I would do it. The way this team is built, it’s not good enough to win it all and that’s not good enough.

 

BTW, last I checked, Packers still out pace the Bills in SB victories and that’s literally all that matters. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Mahomes contract was restructured to get it to 35M bc you know he’s staying and the same thing can be done with Allen.  You can get some compensation back for Diggs in trade and designate Von Post June 1, so it’s 45M this year and YES, I am saying I would do it. The way this team is built, it’s not good enough to win it all and that’s not good enough.

 

BTW, last I checked, Packers still out pace the Bills in SB victories and that’s literally all that matters. 

Well we agree on one thing. SB victories is all that matter! 

[GunnerBill]

20 hours ago, Billl said:

This is the crux of the matter right here.  A front office is always serving two masters.  They are trying to win a Superbowl, but they're also trying to keep their jobs.  If you believe, as I do, that the best path to a championship is to rip off the band-aid now, take your lumps in 2024, and target 2025 and beyond, the it's a question of whether McBeane feel they have enough job security to survive a 7-10 type season.

 

To me, Beane is acting more like a guy who would rather continuing to kick the can down the road for as long as he can win 10 games and make the playoffs rather than someone who is singularly focused on winning a championship.  It's why I think this board directs too much blame at McDermott and not enough at Beane.

 

It's not just cap management, either.  Even the draft picks have been safe lately.  A 24 year old TE in the first round and interior OL in the second are solid pieces, but they're relatively high floor, low ceiling picks.  They're not the type you take when your mentality is "superstar or bust".  They're the type you target when you feel that you've got enough firepower on the roster already and need to supplement them with quality supporting pieces.

 

I agree with this. My only quibble is I defend them a bit on last year's draft. Because as a draft, it pretty much sucked. I was fine with taking a profit from last year's draft. I am almost always a "take shots at ceiling at premium positions" guy - especially round 1. But I said even going into the draft last year that I would take a softer view on non-premium position picks if they went a bit safe because I felt and still feel a lot of teams will get 4 years down the road from the 2023 NFL Draft and have zero starters from that class. I would hope and expect Beane to go back to his bigger swing on premium position traits approach in 2024. 

[Matt_In_NH]

20 hours ago, ddaryl said:

rip the bandaid off, I agree. Salary Cap Gymnastics can work for a couple of years but at some point you have to reset

This is where I am also, I think the Bills overall odds of winning don't change that much with or without Diggs and Miller.  However I don't see the team doing this.  The benefit is not 2024 or even 2025 but it allows you to reload with younger talent and get healthy cap wise.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

This is where I am also, I think the Bills overall odds of winning don't change that much with or without Diggs and Miller.  However I don't see the team doing this.  The benefit is not 2024 or even 2025 but it allows you to reload with younger talent and get healthy cap wise.

 

I'd rip the band aid off with Miller. I'd keep Stef one more year, because that is the sensible way to play it if you want to eat pain this year and free yourself up next year as long as you do not (and I wouldn't) press the restructure button which allows them to save money this year with him but costs more next year. 

[uticaclub]

18 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Except I really don't think you do. If you cut all those people you mentioned you are looking at tens of millions of dead cap money in one year. You still need to put together a 53 person roster and their are minimum spending numbers per season of real money. 

You think Allen would stay if they tanked an entire season? Would McDermott stay? Do you think the fans would put up with a purposeful nonplayoff season?

What you are suggesting is absolute lunacy. When teams shed contacts it is because they are already terrible like Beane did in year 2 of this regime. 

No team in NFL history has ever tanked a season with a franchise QB. 

You can't be taken seriously posting stuff like this. Cutting even one of these guys with massive dead cap hits is untenable. We were two or three plays away from a Lombardi. We have ten draft picks. 

Even with McDermott they will compete for a SuperBowl with just a few roster tweaks.

 

Now next year they can make some of the moves you suggest. The only decent player on his rookie contract that would be up for an extension would be Rousseau.  And they can let him walk after his fifth year. He is nothing special. They will be able to walk away from Poyer, Diggs, Knox, Dawkins, and Miller after this upcoming season if they want to with or without some post June 1 designations.  I'm not saying I agree with that but they become realistic options.  

We were two or three plays away from missing the playoffs completely.

[BuffaloRebound]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd rip the band aid off with Miller. I'd keep Stef one more year, because that is the sensible way to play it if you want to eat pain this year and free yourself up next year as long as you do not (and I wouldn't) press the restructure button which allows them to save money this year with him but costs more next year. 

No way I’m restructuring Diggs.  16 catches for 140 yards with zero TD’s on 35 targets in our last 4 playoff losses.  We need a #1 WR to get over the hump.  I’d much prefer moving on altogether and bring in Mike Evans.  The Chiefs and Bengals have too many of their own guys to sign.  Playing with Josh is Evans best option.  At a minimum, get Diggs, White, and Von off the books this year and spread the dead cap over 2 years while we still have a plethora of good young starters on rookie deals like Benford, Bernard, Rousseau, Kincaid, Shakir, Cook, Cyrus, and Brown.  

[T master]

On 2/19/2024 at 1:42 PM, Virgil said:

I don’t get this.  Didn’t he sign a one year deal?  How is there a cap hit this year?

 

The only thing i can think of is that they gave him a signing bonus and that pushed it to this season, I heard the guys on 1 Bills live that because he met his incentive of getting to double digit sacks he made more money so maybe with that it pushed it to this coming season .

 

But to be truthful i don't have a clue ...