Joe Brady vs Ken Dorsey- Has He Been Better?

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

To @HappyDays point though, they really nailed the Kittle, Samuel and Aiyuk picks..........2 All Pro's and another likely top 15 WR with draft capital that's about equal to one late first round pick.    They've gotten 4 years of the best LT in football for a 3rd and 5th round pick.   Everyone thinks McCaffrey was a steal but he's the most replaceable of the bunch.  They may not have invested a lot on the surface in these players but they've stacked elite talent on their offense.    Even after wasting those picks on Lance they are money ahead.   

 

Yes, totally. I am not saying their offense is all scheme and no talent either. We saw when McCaffrey, Deebo and Williams missed time together they lost 3 on the bounce and looked a shadow of the same team. 

 

But my point was both sides of the ball in San Fran they have star players with elite talent. The they are not example of get talent on O and trust the D just to coach guys up. They are an example (yet another one) of get yourself those stars and then coach your recyclable JAGs around them for sustained success. That is made easier for them than most because of Purdy's contract.

[goldenboy81]

Before mcd called that timeout, I had bad flashbacks to dorsey and his shotgun draws inside the 5. All Brady has to do is the basics and let the talent do the rest. I can't see why they don't see it

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes, totally. I am not saying their offense is all scheme and no talent either. We saw when McCaffrey, Deebo and Williams missed time together they lost 3 on the bounce and looked a shadow of the same team. 

 

But my point was both sides of the ball in San Fran they have star players with elite talent. The they are not example of get talent on O and trust the D just to coach guys up. They are an example (yet another one) of get yourself those stars and then coach your recyclable JAGs around them for sustained success. That is made easier for them than most because of Purdy's contract.

 

 

Yeah they are an example of scouting/development/scheme working beautifully together.    Their downfall is always those injuries.   Because they don't have an elite QB to push them thru those.

[DrBob806]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Clearly the Ravens and 49ers. And that is exactly how those teams are built this year. In fact this was the first offseason the Ravens made a serious effort to improve Lamar's weapons, and look at the results. 49ers might be the best of the NFC but I don't see them winning a SB.

 

The Eagles would be 3rd for me, despite recent struggles I think they are the type of team that can turn it on in the playoffs. Their issue lately has definitely been defensive coaching. I'm not sold on Hurts as a passer though, he's inconsistent.

 

The Dolphins are also clearly built on offensive talent, but like the Eagles they have poor defensive coaching as Vic Fangio appears to be behind the times. It also remains to be seen if a team built entirely on finesse can win tough games in January.

 

Bengals are built that way as well, obviously this is not their year though. They lead the NFL in trash talking receivers (Chase)

 

The Chiefs defense is built more on defensive scheming than defensive talent IMO, but they forgot the part about investing heavily in offensive talent. Last year they were a good example of that model. Crazy how lousy those WRs are, especially Valdes-Scantling

 

I'm sure people are sick of me saying this but you need two very good or better pass catching options to seriously compete for a Super Bowl in the modern NFL. The team that wins the Super Bowl this year will almost certainly meet that standard. Right now the Bills don't even have one and it's their own fault due to lack of investment. BINGO

 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, SWATeam said:

Heard this statistic on Locked on Bills:

 

Josh Allen is dead last in the league last the last four games in completion % and passer rating when facing NO pressure.

 

There's always a million excuses for Josh when he struggles.  He simply needs to be better.  We have a top defense in place, a good oline, and a strong run game.  With elite QB play we should be in a much better position, the passing offense should be the least of our worries.

 

I don't think some people want to live in the reality that it's Allen.  I think Allen is the main reason why the passing offense has struggled.

He's bailing on clean pockets early, his accuracy is off and he just looks very uncomfortable.  

 

There isn't a receiver, TE or WR that is having any consistent production.  I agree with Cossell, Allen isn't letting the plays develop long enough to get consistent separation.  

[WotAGuy]

Allen is responsible for the bad as well as the good. He overlooks guys that are open all the time. It’s a blessing and a curse that he wants the big play and gives guys a shot downfield. 

[BillsVet]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Brady hasn't had a WR1 in his brief tenure but he's getting to use and abuse Josh Allen,  which wasn't the case for Dorsey this season.

 

That isn't getting media coverage either.   

 

The reigns on Allen running really didn't come off until after Dorsey got fired.

 

In the last 5 games Allen has had 8 rushing TD's........that's a 29 TD season pace.   To put that in perspective he had 31 rushing TD's in his first 4 seasons total.   There is some tush push stuff in there of course but when Allen is running it opens up things.........but the toll may also be harming him as a passer.   His mechanics have turned to sh!t with Brady as OC instead of QBC and his accuracy the past two weeks in particular has been woeful.   

 

I still don't know what their offensive identity is under McD in his 7 years, multiple 4 OC's, and all while featuring for the last 4 years one of the best QBs in the league.  

 

HC talks about not wanting to run Josh, but in crunch time needing to win multiple games, they go right back to it.  We'll never know it, but I've often wondered if Pegula asks his HC why they put their 43M per QB into harms way so often.  

 

Serious conversation needs to be had about whether McD is a good steward of what he's been given, particularly this QB.  

 

[The 9 Isles]

I think BB and Mcd would do this team a disservice if they didn't do a thorough and exhaustive review and search for an offensive mind that would take advantage of one of the best QBs in the league and that's what I would expect. Brady should be part of that discussion but penciling him in as the favorite would be a mistake.

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, BillsVet said:

 

I still don't know what their offensive identity is under McD in his 7 years, multiple 4 OC's, and all while featuring for the last 4 years one of the best QBs in the league.  

 

HC talks about not wanting to run Josh, but in crunch time needing to win multiple games, they go right back to it.  We'll never know it, but I've often wondered if Pegula asks his HC why they put their 43M per QB into harms way so often.  

 

Serious conversation needs to be had about whether McD is a good steward of what he's been given, particularly this QB.  

 

The problem is Josh is not nearly as elite when you take away that dimension.  Especially some games.  Those games he's off- far too many IMO- seems like he needs a hit or two to get going.  I think that's why Dabol used to call so many designed runs early.

[C.Biscuit97]

Started out great but seems like the same offense. So maddening inconsistent. 
 

to be fair to Brady, you have to give him a full offseason to see what he implements himself. But way too many valleys for a team with SB aspirations and an elite qb.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course but they are not an example of a team that is ploughing resource into offense and just getting by with scheme on defense. That isn't the 49ers model. There are two things about their current roster build that stick out as interesting:

 

1. They have Mr Irrelevant at least for one more year on a hugely advantageous rookie deal (that is almost impossible for any team to replicate); 

2. They have very little of a middle class on their roster. They are stars and JAGs. That to me is the model that is the pattern among most recent Superbowl winners (rather than O vs D) and is where I still think the Bills are a bit off it. Not enough stars, more of a middle class, fewer JAGs and arguably greater depth. But that isn't ultimately what gets you over the line. It's the stars. 

What might have been arguably the 3 biggest stars on the defense were lost for the season or are yet to recover 

 

Imagine a full tilt Von, Tre and Milano out there with this current cast. 

[NewEra]

58 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't think some people want to live in the reality that it's Allen.  I think Allen is the main reason why the passing offense has struggled.

He's bailing on clean pockets early, his accuracy is off and he just looks very uncomfortable.  

 

There isn't a receiver, TE or WR that is having any consistent production.  I agree with Cossell, Allen isn't letting the plays develop long enough to get consistent separation.  

I agree.  He’s not the same passer that we was in 2020/21.  That’s obvious. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

8 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I agree.  He’s not the same passer that we was in 2020/21.  That’s obvious. 

I’m coming around to accepting maybe he’s more Cam Newton than Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers.

 

Frustrating- it all seems so mental and fixable. 

[Nihilarian]

I'd say give Brady some time to develop as an NFL OC. Looking over the stats from Ken Dorsey's 10 games this season and Joe Brady's 6 games so far...it's clear to me that the Buffalo Bills won 5 of those 6 and the one against the Eagles in Philly the kicker made a miracle FG in a rain storm for the play of the game and it went into OT 34-37.

 

Ken Dorsey's offense was schematically broken and opposing teams knew what was coming most of the time and that simply isn't the case with Brady. Plus, the Bills have developed an actual dominant run game that we haven't seen the likes of since Tyrod Taylor and LeSean McCoy. What they did to the Cowboys with that run game is something we would have never seen under Dorsey or Daboll. It was a thing of beauty! 

 

In this last game, Brady didn't drop 3 passes that would have been first downs or started to look like the team that led the NFL in dropped passes again. Brady wasn't off-target with his throws. The Buffalo offensive line double-teamed a NE player and he still got the sack on Josh Allen. Who BTW was under pressure most of that NE game. That Buffalo O line had difficulty against the Patriots for some reason. 

 

I dunno what's up with Josh Allen (perhaps that new GF is wearing him out?) 

 

Anyway, I have no idea why the fans are questioning the Buffalo OC when it's the players who can't seem to play up against a down team. 

[Einstein's Dog]

3 hours ago, SWATeam said:

Heard this statistic on Locked on Bills:

 

Josh Allen is dead last in the league last the last four games in completion % and passer rating when facing NO pressure.

 

There's always a million excuses for Josh when he struggles.  He simply needs to be better.  We have a top defense in place, a good oline, and a strong run game.  With elite QB play we should be in a much better position, the passing offense should be the least of our worries.

Didn't we win the last 4 games, so how much better position would we be in?

[Jrb1979]

17 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

I just look at our record.

 

With Dorsey 5-5.

With Brady 5-1. Lone loss Brady engineered 34 points. 

 

Look at the caliber of offenses they played. 

[FilthyBeast]

3 hours ago, TampaBillsJunkie said:

This!!  Sheffield and Murray have been disaster artists. I'd like to see them inactive. I had high hopes on Sheffield, but he has really had a down year.

 

At this point it should be a no brainer than Sherfield is inactive the rest of the year and Murray in released and replaced with Fournette.

 

But if history has shown us anything it probably won't happen, especially in the case of Murray because he's a 'leader' and they don't want to 'disrupt the lockerroom'.

[NewEra]

19 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’m coming around to accepting maybe he’s more Cam Newton than Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers.

 

Frustrating- it all seems so mental and fixable. 

I think some may not like the Cam throwing comp, I don’t really like it either, but he’s definitely closer to Cam than Brady.  
 

Seems like the reads just don’t come as easy for him.  If he were to process more effectively, I think he’d be more accurate.  Might not make sense to some, but it makes sense to me.  
 

that said- that’s my guy and I wouldn’t want any other QB.  Not due to QB prowess, rather who he is as a man while also being a super hero.)

 

Back on topic-  Josh is missing a combination of too many throws and too many reads.  The misses have been a big part of our offensive issues.  We need an OC that can help Josh limit those misses.  Dorsey wasn’t able to.  Brady hasn’t been able to yet, but he hasn’t had nearly as much time to prove himself.  If our offense continues on the same path for the rest of the year, we should probably move on from him.  

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

At this point it should be a no brainer than Sherfield is inactive the rest of the year and Murray in released and replaced with Fournette.

 

But if history has shown us anything it probably won't happen, especially in the case of Murray because he's a 'leader' and they don't want to 'disrupt the lockerroom'.

Murray is a superior blocker AND is a good leader.  That’s why he’s on the roster.  He’s been lackluster running the ball the 2nd half of the year, but that’s not his only purpose. 

 

Fournette has blocking potential and sometimes executes well as a PB but he’s not nearly as good as Murray.  Just because I he’s massive doesn’t mean he’s a good blocker.  He’s not 

[Jrb1979]

25 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Didn't we win the last 4 games, so how much better position would we be in?

Yeah they won those games. The thing is how confident are you that they will win in the playoffs playing that way. 

[BillsVet]

57 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

What might have been arguably the 3 biggest stars on the defense were lost for the season or are yet to recover 

 

Imagine a full tilt Von, Tre and Milano out there with this current cast. 

 

There isn't 1 team in the league after 16 weeks who hasn't dealt with injuries.  Every single guy is banged up because it's the NFL.  Just because they aren't on the injury report means (EDIT: doesn't mean) they're healthy.  The idea that a team can go a full season without a significant injury is pie in the sky nonsense.  

 

44 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I’m coming around to accepting maybe he’s more Cam Newton than Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers.

 

Frustrating- it all seems so mental and fixable. 

 

Maybe the biggest weakness of TBD is most Bills fans aren't following the league, or do so through reading headlines.  

 

As all of this debate around Josh happens, what happened to Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs?  He's not the passer this season he was in 2020, or 2022 for that matter.  What could have changed?  Is he not taking the game seriously?  Could it be the Chiefs stopped investing in top-end receiving targets and teams are better suited to defending them?  Nah, couldn't be.

 

Or what about Jalen Hurts and the Eagles?  He's thrown double the INT's this year (EDIT: compared to last year) and the Eagles are struggling.  

 

Maybe, just maybe it's a confluence of factors.  As in, teams having more film on these guys and defenses adapt or the coaching staff isn't innovative and going with the same old old, or they are dealing with injuries or they didn't have great skilled talent.  It's never just one thing.  

 

Josh has had some issues, sure.  But they're back running him and expecting him to get by with inferior skill talent around him as well.  

Edited January 2 by BillsVet

[FilthyBeast]

7 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I think some may not like the Cam throwing comp, I don’t really like it either, but he’s definitely closer to Cam than Brady.  
 

Seems like the reads just don’t come as easy for him.  If he were to process more effectively, I think he’d be more accurate.  Might not make sense to some, but it makes sense to me.  
 

that said- that’s my guy and I wouldn’t want any other QB.  Not due to QB prowess, rather who he is as a man while also being a super hero.)

 

Back on topic-  Josh is missing a combination of too many throws and too many reads.  The misses have been a big part of our offensive issues.  We need an OC that can help Josh limit those misses.  Dorsey wasn’t able to.  Brady hasn’t been able to yet, but he hasn’t had nearly as much time to prove himself.  If our offense continues on the same path for the rest of the year, we should probably move on from him.  

Murray is a superior blocker AND is a good leader.  That’s why he’s on the roster.  He’s been lackluster running the ball the 2nd half of the year, but that’s not his only purpose. 

 

Fournette has blocking potential and sometimes executes well as a PB but he’s not nearly as good as Murray.  Just because I he’s massive doesn’t mean he’s a good blocker.  He’s not 

 

Fournette was a big part of Brady's superbowl run with the Bucs a few years ago and he's proven to be a major weapon in both the running and passing game. His blocking is also no worse than Murray.

 

I just can't fathom that he's not a massive upgrade over Murray at this point, who to his credit had some juice early in the season but has shown his age so to speak the last few months. Actually reminds a lot of the Frank Gore situation who this same head coach insisted on sticking with until the bitter end when he was here despite Singletary being the better option as a rookie.

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Fournette was a big part of Brady's superbowl run with the Bucs a few years ago and he's proven to be a major weapon in both the running and passing game. His blocking is also no worse than Murray.

 

I just can't fathom that he's not a massive upgrade over Murray at this point, who to his credit had some juice early in the season but has shown his age so to speak the last few months. Actually reminds a lot of the Frank Gore situation who this same head coach insisted on sticking with until the bitter end when he was here despite Singletary being the better option as a rookie.

That was his only good season as a pass blocker.  He improved from terrible his whole career to good in 2021.  He wasn’t as good last season.  
 

I like Lenny.  If he were to replace Murray in the lineup, I’d be excited to see what he can do.  I just think they’d prefer to have the better pass blocker.  And Murray is that 

[Coldfronts]

I don't know if Brady is the long term answer but, his is a much better OC than Dorsey was.  Brady does not get compulsively locked in to the pregame plan as Dorsey did.  He is more able to adapt schemes during the game.  He is definitely more non-conventional than Dorsey was which, I like.  Who would have thought we would be a balanced run/pass team at this point of the season back in September? 

[ngbills]

Short-term memories. I was a huge critic of Dorsey and wanted them to move on from him. But before you jump to all these Brady is so much better take a look at Dorsey's numbers last year. I do not see how you can say Brady is that much better unless you look at only Dorsey's worst games compared to Brady's best. 

 

The Bills O is down this year and it is more than Dorsey sucks, Brady is better. I would not want either to be the OC next year. They need to bring in a fresh look and someone that can revitalize this O. They have gotten stale and predictable. New OC and new WR's will do wonders. Josh may need a new QB coach - he has admitted his technique is off and that is a part of it. 

[Alphadawg7]

19 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

After watching the offense slog along yesterday I wanted to go back and look at the statistics over the last six weeks to see how much of a difference Brady has been.    Looking over the stats, it seems like a bit of a push in terms of offensive success.  What Brady has done better is exactly what McDermott kept harping on "complimentary football."    Brady has taken the air out of the offense and replaced it with ground success, and in doing so, cut down on the turnovers.     

 

Can the Bills keep it up at this pace?   Can they rely on the defense to keep playing out of their minds and hope a successful running game can move them forward?  Personally, I think the Bills are playing on a razors edge and will end up bit.    The Bills really need to consider looking outside of the organization at guys like Eric Bienemy, and Kellen Moore in the offseason to attempt and fix the passing game.  

 

 

 

This is heavily skewed for Dorsey over weeks 2, 3, and 4 against 3 bad defenses.  The other 7 weeks (Jets plus the final 6 weeks before he was fired) the offense only averaged 19.5 PPG and was terrible.  

 

I keep saying this over and over...stop looking at the season totals/avg of Dorsey led offense, its a false answer and does not reflect just how poorly the offense was playing the majority of the year.

 

19.5 PPG for Dorsey in 7 games against the weakest opponents on our schedule.

28 PPG for Brady in 6 games against the hardest part of our schedule facing a tough defense in every game but 1.  

 

Look at like opponents:  Jets - In 3 games, Dorsey led Bills offense avg 17 PPG and was 1-2 including 2 losses to Zack Wilson.  Brady hung 32 in 3 quarters and our starters sat most the 4th quarter in a blow out win that would have been likely 40-48 points had we not benched our starters for the 4th.  

 

So sorry...this stat box above does not remotely illustrate the difference the offense has experienced since Brady took over.  We are avg over 8 more PPG in Bradys first 6 games compared to Dorseys final 6 games.  Bills were 2-4 (and got lucky to not be 0-6) during Dorseys final 6 games with an inept offense and were out of the payoffs.  Under Brady, we are 5-1 and should be 6-0 if not for gaffs made that had nothing to do with Brady and are playing for the #2 seed next week.

 

None of that makes Brady the end all be all, but it DEFINITELY makes him a much better option than Dorsey was.  Even when the offense struggles, we are still scoring more points and winning close games compared to losing them because we couldn't put enough points on the board.  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

18 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

There isn't 1 team in the league after 16 weeks who hasn't dealt with injuries.  Every single guy is banged up because it's the NFL.  Just because they aren't on the injury report means (EDIT: doesn't mean) they're healthy.  The idea that a team can go a full season without a significant injury is pie in the sky nonsense.  

 

 

Maybe the biggest weakness of TBD is most Bills fans aren't following the league, or do so through reading headlines.  

 

As all of this debate around Josh happens, what happened to Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs?  He's not the passer this season he was in 2020, or 2022 for that matter.  What could have changed?  Is he not taking the game seriously?  Could it be the Chiefs stopped investing in top-end receiving targets and teams are better suited to defending them?  Nah, couldn't be.

 

Or what about Jalen Hurts and the Eagles?  He's thrown double the INT's this year (EDIT: compared to last year) and the Eagles are struggling.  

 

Maybe, just maybe it's a confluence of factors.  As in, teams having more film on these guys and defenses adapt or the coaching staff isn't innovative and going with the same old old, or they are dealing with injuries or they didn't have great skilled talent.  It's never just one thing.  

 

Josh has had some issues, sure.  But they're back running him and expecting him to get by with inferior skill talent around him as well.  

re injuries- the point was that the Bills have some excellent players on D- they are the ones that were compromised. So it’s not as if the team didn’t plan on excellence at all three levels of the defense actually. 
 

On offense -  Mahomes- yeah He’s having statistically his worst season, but I bet he’s still got a better passer rating than allen (which is a very real indicator of qb decision making and passing efficiency) 

 

neither is playing qb at a high level. Lamar Jackson and Purdue are the class of the league right now 

[TurfToeJam]

Now that the tape is out there on Brady for defenses to see we will know just how good Brady really is.(or isn't)

[stevestojan]

Yes. He is better than Dorsey. But the bar was set low. 
 

 

[Since1981]

Brady is better per WIN rate. Not sure I can produce a more compelling "stat" than a "W".

Will this last? If Brady is getting just ONE more score per game?  In the NFL, that's all you need.

 

brady is 5 - 1 (loss Eagles).

dorsey is 5 - 5 

 

Even if just OC gets 1 more score, then that's the difference in successful Coaching in NFL.

[ngbills]

So the Bills were 13-3 last year. They were 2nd in the league in yards, points, and 1st downs. They came out this year and scored 38, 37, and 48 in 3 of the first 4 games this year. They struggled and the OC got fired. The new OC has some good games to start (with a lower bar) and has now also struggled. Yet many want to crown Brady not only better than Dorsey but good enough to give him the job. I don't get it. If Dorsey did enough to get fired then Brady has not done nearly enough to get the job. Hire outside of the building. Bring in a new QB coach. 

[Gman10]

2 hours ago, ngbills said:

So the Bills were 13-3 last year. They were 2nd in the league in yards, points, and 1st downs. They came out this year and scored 38, 37, and 48 in 3 of the first 4 games this year. They struggled and the OC got fired. The new OC has some good games to start (with a lower bar) and has now also struggled. Yet many want to crown Brady not only better than Dorsey but good enough to give him the job. I don't get it. If Dorsey did enough to get fired then Brady has not done nearly enough to get the job. Hire outside of the building. Bring in a new QB coach. 

Brady faced tougher competition tho. Also he took the position mid season, has to be difficult

[damj]

[NewEra]

@Billsfan1972 @ScottLaw

 

you guys don’t think Josh’s passing has been part of the problem this year?

 

Thought think he’s been throwing the ball this year as well as he was in 2020?