Can we work out some punters?

[Eastport bills]

Sam Martin’s last punt was one of the most important plays of the game. The Bills were pushed back inside their 20 and his punt went out inside KCs 30. Now he’s been mediocre in other games but our coverage group have been inconsistent also. Hopefully we get games that we punt 2times or less.

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

It's more of a low hangtime issue with him.

 

when HC orders a punt from your own 40, not much time to hang....

[BigAl2526]

22 hours ago, Irv said:

 

Maybe he's punting closer to the opponents end zone than the other punters?

The fact that he's in the bottom half pinning opponents inside the 20 doesn't help that argument.

[ChasBB]

22 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

I've been wondering if we couldn't sign Araiza back.  I'm betting this has been discussed before but....I mean, he was innocent right?

 

I may be off base I don't recall exactly how the drama ended.  I know VD was involved but isn't it always?

Here is the latest on Araiza ...

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/buffalo-bills-matt-araiza-sand-diego-state-university/article_2f8cc95e-9933-11ee-aef6-673085793805.html

[BigAl2526]

27 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Source?

I read it in a post.  When you raised the question, I checked stats on NFL.com.  Marttin has 14 punts downed inside the 20.  I counted 21 punters among the top 32 punters who have more than 14 punts inside the 20.  Seven punters have fewer punts inside the 20 than Martin.

 

https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/punts/2023/reg/all/puntingaverageyards/desc

Edited December 13, 2023 by BigAl2526

[Irv]

44 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

The fact that he's in the bottom half pinning opponents inside the 20 doesn't help that argument.

Maybe he's tired.  

[BullBuchanan]

32 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

I read it in a post.  When you raised the question, I checked stats on NFL.com.  Marttin has 14 punts downed inside the 20.  I counted 21 punters among the top 32 punters who have more than 14 punts inside the 20.  Seven punters have fewer punts inside the 20 than Martin.

 

https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/punts/2023/reg/all/puntingaverageyards/desc

You know that percentage matters, right? He can't punt inside the 20 when the team doesn't punt. He is 19th this year and was 17th last year and hitting htta percentage on a yearly basis is an elite level of performance when you measure over a career.

[BigAl2526]

6 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

You know that percentage matters, right? He can't punt inside the 20 when the team doesn't punt. He is 19th this year and was 17th last year and hitting htta percentage on a yearly basis is an elite level of performance when you measure over a career.

I'm not going to go through 32 punters and figure out the percentage of every punter of punts inside the 20.  I did kind of skim through the list and Martin's percentage was nothing special compared to others.  Several punters have a far better per punt average and a far better percentage of punts inside the 20.  You are right in that Martin has been known as a punter who can pin opponents deep.  It is also true that players wear out eventually.  The Bills have to decide if that is the case for Martin or he's just having a sub-par year for some reason.

[Doc Brown]

He's good pinning a team inside the 20 this year but he's had some real bad low line drive punts that have lead to some big field position altering returns.  The biggest problem is finding a punter you trust to hold for Bass and there's only four games left.  You stick with him but there needs to be competition next year in training camp.  Whether that's Araiza or one of the other billion out of work punters looking for a job.

[2003Contenders]

10 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

Sam Martin’s last punt was one of the most important plays of the game. The Bills were pushed back inside their 20 and his punt went out inside KCs 30. Now he’s been mediocre in other games but our coverage group have been inconsistent also. Hopefully we get games that we punt 2times or less.

Excellent point.

 

Remember also that Martin did a fantastic job pinning the Bucs deep inside their own territory repeatedly in a game that wound up going down to the wire.

 

I would also say that one of the myths about punters is to look at their average punt distance. A team whose offense is terrible punts from their own side of the field most often and relies on their punter to boom it 50+ yards -- whereas, a team with an offense that moves the ball (like the Bills) is usually relying on their punter to get more hang time and less distance.

 

Not saying that Martin couldn't do a better job in certain situations -- but I don't see him as near the liability that many others do, especially when the Bills typically punt so rarely.

[BobbyC81]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:40 PM, JohnNord said:

He leaves a LOT to be desired.  Actually the entire Special Teams unit leaves a lot to be desired.  Unless they do something really big during the last part of the season, I’d expect some shakeups into next year

It’s all because they didn’t bring back Taiwan Jones.  #sarcasm

[zow2]

At this point in the season you don't mess around with the holder for Bass' field goals unless something catastrophic is happening.

[pocoboy]

8 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

I'm not going to go through 32 punters and figure out the percentage of every punter of punts inside the 20. 

 

 Took about 2 min on pfref

[strive_for_five_guy]

13 minutes ago, pocoboy said:

 

 Took about 2 min on pfref

Man, didn’t know we have him on a deal for two more years.  When you look at his age and performance, seems like this is only going to become a bigger problem.  Agree with other posters that we need to bring in other competition next summer.

[strive_for_five_guy]

 

Found this out there.  Does not help Martin’s case for punting performance this season.
 

[NewEra]

After a day of research I’ve come to the conclusion that yes, we can work out some punters

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

It’s all because they didn’t bring back Taiwan Jones.  #sarcasm

🤣 Coverage units have definitely been worse but I feel some of that is related Sam Martin’s lousy punting.  The only reason I see Matt Smiley back is some amazing turnaround.  This unit has struggled all season long.  
 

Really the one exceptional moment has been Reggie Gilliam’s monster hit to force a fumble at NYJ.  
 

 

[Warriorspikes51]

how about we never punt again instead 

[ngbills]

Spent way too much time looking at our punter. But more convinced that he sucks. First he is paid near a top 10 salary with guaranteed money. Not sure how he swung that contract. But you look at the numbers:

 

19 of his 38 punts are from inside our own 35 yard line. 9 of those 19 were not even kicked 50 yards. Only 2 of them went 60 yards. These are gross yards not net. 

 

Looking at his punts from midfield there are 11. Only 2 of the 11 pinned the opponent inside the 5 yard line. When your punting from there you have to pion your opponent at the goal line more than that. 

 

So he is not good at the long punts, not good at dropping it inside the 5. Bottomline he somewhere between average and terrible but being paid like is great to above average. 

[hondo in seattle]

4 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

 

Found this out there.  Does not help Martin’s case for punting performance this season.
 

 

2nd worst net average in the NFL.

 

Punt god sure sounds tempting.  

[stevewin]

On 12/12/2023 at 5:44 PM, jimmynunn said:

It didn't get mentioned anywhere that I am aware of, but I thought KC made a very bad strategic desision. None of Bass' kicks reached the end zone, yet they fair caught every one. Given how mediocre our coverage has been, I don't see why they wouldn't have tried to return a couple. (Look how successful they were on that punt return.)

We're not the only team with questionable coaching!!

One of my pet peeves is not just kicking the ball out of the end zone every kickoff.  The risk of big return and injury far outweighs actually making a tackle for what may be a couple/few yards less (on a positive play).

 

I also hate that directional punting is a lost art.  Kick all kickoffs out of the EZ and execute punts to the sideline and OOB and you barely need to even have ST coverage and reserve rosters spots for 'ST demons'

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

how about we never punt again instead 

 

Remember the days when we punted once a game?  What happened?  

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Remember the days when we punted once a game?  What happened?  

We stopped scoring on almost every drive, getting tons of first downs and going for it if we came up short in no man’s land. 3 and outs were almost unheard of. 

[ngbills]

2 hours ago, stevewin said:

One of my pet peeves is not just kicking the ball out of the end zone every kickoff.  The risk of big return and injury far outweighs actually making a tackle for what may be a couple/few yards less (on a positive play).

 

I also hate that directional punting is a lost art.  Kick all kickoffs out of the EZ and execute punts to the sideline and OOB and you barely need to even have ST coverage and reserve rosters spots for 'ST demons'

This is were over valuing stats / analytics is an issue. They talk about it being a game of inches and how every yard matters. So if you get a team to start at the 22 vs the 25 its a huge advantage. I call bs. The goal is to stop teams from scoring. Rarely is the situation - wow we would have stopped that TD if it was a 79 yard drive instead of a 73 yard drive. You either keep them out of the end zone or not. The game of inches and every yard mattering is on specific plays not in comparing 80 vs 70 yard drives. 

[billsfan89]

Martin has been Ok this season, just by my eye test I can’t think of many bad punts he has had. I think at this point he is what this team will stick with. I think teams tend to only replace kickers/punters deep in season when a kicker/punter is hurt or completely implodes. Neither has happened to Martin.

 

I do think that for both kicker spots there needs to be more competition in camp. Bring back Ariza would be my play if he is willing to come back.

[BullBuchanan]

10 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Man, didn’t know we have him on a deal for two more years.  When you look at his age and performance, seems like this is only going to become a bigger problem.  Agree with other posters that we need to bring in other competition next summer.

Why is it a problem? You do know his current % of 36.6% puts him in the top 10 all time for punters with 500 punts right?

[strive_for_five_guy]

40 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Why is it a problem? You do know his current % of 36.6% puts him in the top 10 all time for punters with 500 punts right?

Where are you getting that?  He’s 18th in the league around that percentage, this season alone.  So are the other 17 punters ahead of him punting at a top 10 all time level this year too?

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Where are you getting that?  He’s 18th in the league around that percentage, this season alone.  So are the other 17 punters ahead of him punting at a top 10 all time level this year too?

I didn't realize it was a coded message. 35%+ of punts downed inside the 20 is an extremely good number over the long haul. Most of the guys above him are punting well in the short term, likely due to factors outside their control. if you look year over year, it changes a lot. Stonehouse and Fox were lower than martin last year. Martin is consistently good every year.

[strive_for_five_guy]

7 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

I didn't realize it was a coded message. 35%+ of punts downed inside the 20 is an extremely good number over the long haul. Most of the guys above him are punting well in the short term, likely due to factors outside their control. if you look year over year, it changes a lot. Stonehouse and Fox were lower than martin last year. Martin is consistently good every year.

Let me break down my question for you - What is your source for that being top 10 all time?  Link?

[BullBuchanan]

10 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Let me break down my question for you - What is your source for that being top 10 all time?  Link?

https://www.footballdb.com/leaders/career-punting-yards
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DpPjwoUJ9kS5cQVoce-O4FJ636A5hySKICACBUEUnjE/edit?usp=sharing

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MartSa01.htm

If he retired today he'd be 7th.

Edited December 15, 2023 by BullBuchanan

[strive_for_five_guy]

21 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

https://www.footballdb.com/leaders/career-punting-yards
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DpPjwoUJ9kS5cQVoce-O4FJ636A5hySKICACBUEUnjE/edit?usp=sharing

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MartSa01.htm

If he retired today he'd be 7th.

If I’m following your spreadsheet, starting sample is top 50 punters by total yards?  So he’d be “7th” for inside 20 percentage, compared against that cohort?

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

If I’m following your spreadsheet, starting sample is top 50 punters by total yards?  So he’d be “7th” for inside 20 percentage, compared against that cohort?

yes. I couldn't get the stats for the delta between 50 and 61(where martin ranks currently), so I figure top 10 is a safe assumption until he gets into the top 50 all time punt yard leaders, which he should hit in 2 years if he sticks with the bills or possibly 1 year on another team.

[RunTheBall]

Do you guys even watch the games or do you just look at stats? This has the stink of our offense with Dorsey being great stat wise but the eye test said otherwise.

 

Martin has SUCKED this year. Yeah maybe he gets a couple inside the 20 once in a while but anytime he has to kick from distance he’s nailing low hang time line drives right down the middle and our crap special teams is giving up big returns. It cost us the Jet’s game! 

 

Spare me the stats crap I’m tired of it. PFF says Dodson is the #2 linebacker in the league behind Warner. Give me a break.

 

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Forget the Buffalo Bills punter that is the least of the Bills problems. Can the Bills work out a real head coach with a coaching IQ test. Make Sean McDermott take a coaching IQ test along with other coaching candidates for the Bills head coaching job in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, RunTheBall said:

Do you guys even watch the games or do you just look at stats? This has the stink of our offense with Dorsey being great stat wise but the eye test said otherwise.

 

Martin has SUCKED this year. Yeah maybe he gets a couple inside the 20 once in a while but anytime he has to kick from distance he’s nailing low hang time line drives right down the middle and our crap special teams is giving up big returns. It cost us the Jet’s game! 

 

Spare me the stats crap I’m tired of it. PFF says Dodson is the #2 linebacker in the league behind Warner. Give me a break.

 

And inside the 20 is way different than inside the 5. He rarely does that. 

[ColoradoBills]

9 hours ago, ngbills said:

Spent way too much time looking at our punter. But more convinced that he sucks. First he is paid near a top 10 salary with guaranteed money. Not sure how he swung that contract. But you look at the numbers:

 

19 of his 38 punts are from inside our own 35 yard line. 9 of those 19 were not even kicked 50 yards. Only 2 of them went 60 yards. These are gross yards not net. 

 

Looking at his punts from midfield there are 11. Only 2 of the 11 pinned the opponent inside the 5 yard line. When your punting from there you have to pion your opponent at the goal line more than that. 

 

So he is not good at the long punts, not good at dropping it inside the 5. Bottomline he somewhere between average and terrible but being paid like is great to above average. 

 

Beane will bring in camp competition next season.  Martin has an $800K dead cap cost but would save $1.2M if cut.

It's an easy contract to get out of.

[BigAl2526]

4 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Martin has been Ok this season, just by my eye test I can’t think of many bad punts he has had. I think at this point he is what this team will stick with. I think teams tend to only replace kickers/punters deep in season when a kicker/punter is hurt or completely implodes. Neither has happened to Martin.

 

I do think that for both kicker spots there needs to be more competition in camp. Bring back Ariza would be my play if he is willing to come back.

The stats say he's less than OK.  His average of pinning other teams inside the 20 is his best trait, and he ranks in the bottom half at #18 in that category.  He ranks near the bottom in some other categories.   Maybe this year is a fluke and he can improve to where he was, but the if the Bills want to make that bet, they had better be in a position to hedge their bet.

[Solomon Grundy]

40 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Beane will bring in camp competition next season.  Martin has an $800K dead cap cost but would save $1.2M if cut.

It's an easy contract to get out of.

Need this to re-sign Rasul!! 

[Don Otreply]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:02 PM, ngbills said:

Martin is awful. He is bottom of the pack in gross and net yards. He is in the bottom half in punts inside the 20. Bring in some competition. 

No, Not happening,

[Paul Costa]

On 12/12/2023 at 5:53 PM, bmur66 said:

We know Araiza could kick a mile but could he actually do the things they want him to do?

They owe this a kid a spot next year for camp. We kinda dicked him over. I understand why but he deserves a chance. Hope we’re the team that gives that too him