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Orlovsky: Buffalo never once forced Hurts to make the harder throw


SydneyBillsFan

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1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Let's be clear: Spears is an ABSOLUTE CLOWN on NFL Live. He's only there to give dumb hot takes for the real pros like Orlovsky and Ryan Clark to play off of.

 

Spears made that show unwatchable through the 2021 and 2022 seasons. He's dialed it back a little bit now that they are back in studio. But dude is just there to make jokes and throw out trash takes.

 

I'm not excusing it, just explaining and denoting for anyone who happens to catch NFL Live.

 

Give me Orlovsky, Clark, and Kimes and you got a good panel.

Yeah but it's not like he's hard to find, he's on Monday Night countdown too lol

 

 

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2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Yes, because ESPN has become the MSNBC/FOX of sports.  All they do is try to drive engagement by riling people up.  

 

If Philly misses a 59 yard FG at the end, the entire narrative yesterday would be how Josh Allen is the MVP front runner.  Instead, thanks to McDermott and his Defense, we get to deal with this nonsense. 

 

Just like 13 seconds has driven the post-season JA narrative.. again, thanks to McDermott and his Defense. 

 

Every sports channel does it. Shannon Sharp/Skip Bayless are the kings of hot takes to drive engagement and theyre over on Fox.

 

99% of sports reporting seems to be hot takes to get reactions and drive clicks.

 

Which kinda makes sense considering sports reporting is just fancy marketing for all these leagues. None of it should be taken too seriously.

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6 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I actually agree with this but have to mention that Kelce took back to back false starts to push them back 10yrds or else it would have been a very makeable 49 yrdr instead.

 

Agree, but that's why I was very careful in verbiage.

 

Moreover, if we talk about the Kelce penalties, in fairness we must include the D "forcing" 2 incompletions (err, a sack?) and a 3-yd run in the last 3 non-penalty downs.

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3 hours ago, st pete gogolak said:

Bingo!  Agree 100%.  McDermott is scared to death of giving up the big play at the end of tight games and I really believe it goes back to the Hill TD.

St least then the offense gets the ball back.  No confidence in the defense 

2 hours ago, MikePJ76 said:

How can the title of that video be bills issues bigger than josh allen?  With a picture of that loser marcus spears no less.  Marcus spears never made a big play in his entire time in the nfl and was repeatedly responsible for the Dallas D getting gashed in big games........what a ridiculous title.

 

loss on more than just josh allen?  WTF?

Spears is the NFL's version of Kendrick Perkins on NBA Today (racist comments and no facts to back it up).  A complete joke.

Edited by Billsfan1972
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1 hour ago, st pete gogolak said:

Want to be fair. D had big stop last year to win KC game.  Other than that, has D made a late stop to win a game (I guess you can include NYG game this year but what a cluster bleep that was)?  Honest question.

Yes at the 25 yard line.  How many others?  Wow one stop in how many?

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13 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:


Ugh, the defense is giving up less than 20 pts per game, including last night’s game, ranked 6th in the league.  Yardage wise they’re 10th.  In what’s now a passing league, they’re 7th in the NFL, giving up just over 200 yards passing/game.

A lot of that is skewed by opponents imo and being dominant when Milano/jones were healthy. Jets x2, bucs,broncos,giants, patriots, raiders were more than half our games and those offenses are trainwrecks.
 

Advanced metrics that adjust for opponents like dvoa are much less favorable towards the bills.  We were dead last in defensive dvoa for a pretty decent stretch after the Milano/jones injuries 

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4 hours ago, Juice_32 said:

 

Everything you mention is why the late game choke jobs are so frustrating. The problem is purely late game situational. McD's late game conservative tendencies have been beaten time and time again, it's on tape and it's like taking candy from a baby. He is either unaware or too stubborn to change, either way he has to go.

Thank you for pointing this out 

All the numbers long term are going in his favor because of his style of defense. But situationally we get destroyed because he doesn’t adjust. 
 

Offensively he is aggressive in the right moments. Usually he will go it for on 4th when needed. 
But defensively it’s soft coverage until the other team gets in plus territory and then reckless aggression. 
Just find the middle ground with tight coverage and creeper pressures at the end of games. Make a qb go through a progression 

If he hasn’t figured that out now I’m not sure he’s going too

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12 hours ago, QB Bills said:

If I had to guess, I think that catch and run by tyreek hill in the 13 seconds game (right before the final Davis TD) has given McDoormat PTSD. Ever since then he is so terrified of giving up a long TD that he concedes yards at the ends of close games to the point where he's willing to give up a field goal attempt and take his chances. Granted, yesterday's kick was borderline miraculous, but it still shouldn't have gotten to that point.

McDermott seems to be thinking, "Ok, we'll let them get into field goal range because, hey, they may miss!" 

 

I really can't remember the last time the defense had to hold and did. (I'm certainly not including the shameful Giants game.) Maybe the playoff game against the Ravens when Taron had the pick? 

 

McDermott plays not to lose. He simply has to go. But by the time it's blindingly obvious--likely after next season--we'll have lost yet another year of Allen's prime. 

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34 minutes ago, finn said:

McDermott seems to be thinking, "Ok, we'll let them get into field goal range because, hey, they may miss!" 

 

I really can't remember the last time the defense had to hold and did. (I'm certainly not including the shameful Giants game.) Maybe the playoff game against the Ravens when Taron had the pick? 

 

McDermott plays not to lose. He simply has to go. But by the time it's blindingly obvious--likely after next season--we'll have lost yet another year of Allen's prime. 

In fairness,  that was like a 1/25 type fg make and even that feels generous.  
 

The defense held on to win a lot last year,  this disappointing season seems to have given people fuzzy memories.  Even in losses they pulled off some impressive holds like the Minnesota game where they had a pretty amazing goal line stand then the offense fumbled it away 

 

it’s kind of funny you mention the ravens game from two years ago because our defense saved the game with a late INT against that very same team the next season and you don’t remember it 😂
 

in total they stopped the opponent with a chance to win on a final drive in all these games:

kc

bal

Min 

Mia x3 (defense had good field position game 1)


partial credit for NYJ game 1 (long drive but held to a fg so we could tie with a fg.  Plenty of time for the offense to at least tie who took over and did nothing)

 

partial credit for NYJ game 2 (we were up 8 so the best they could do was tie)

 

Partial credit for lions….(held to a fg to keep the game tied then the offense won it with 30 seconds left) 

 

so depending on how you look at it the defense held somewhere between 6-9 games.   The rest of the games were pretty much blowout wins.  Defense at least debatably held up in 100% of their opportunities on late drives 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Generic_Bills_Fan
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McD has 2 defensive calls when there’s under 2 minutes left - Prevent D or Zero Blitz

 

Go look at the list of games lost on final drives or in OT when we had lead under 2 minutes since he came here. It’s indefensible and he should be fired, but he won’t be.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Bob Jones said:

As I stated earlier in this thread, NextGen Stats gave that specific 59 yard kick a 20% success rate, so 1 in 5. 😉

Does that factor in weather?  That sounds much too high.  And even so that is still a very unlikely play lol the only way to know for sure is to replay that moment a bunch of times haha 

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2 hours ago, Dukestreetking said:

I'll bite, and get flamed...

 

Philly: 1:52, down 3, but with 2TOs, and (very?) good QB/O. That's a layup in modern NFL.

 

Result: no TD, no gimme FG. Instead, they have to rely on a 20%, 59-yd attempt in awful weather conditions.

 

Yes, I would've loved for the D to force a TO on downs or otherwise. But, regardless of circumstances, and on this particular high-leverage series, I would consider this a "stop" or damn near it.

 

Put it this way: at 1:52, if you would've told me I could have that non-ST result (again, irrespective of play sequence), I'd say "ok, I'll take that chance".

 

Btw: I'm not/not talking about the more general--and obvious--problem of late-game D failures.

 

If not for penalties they get a chip shot FG, the Philly drive in OT was defended pathetically. 

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2 hours ago, Dukestreetking said:

I'll bite, and get flamed...

 

Philly: 1:52, down 3, but with 2TOs, and (very?) good QB/O. That's a layup in modern NFL.

 

Result: no TD, no gimme FG. Instead, they have to rely on a 20%, 59-yd attempt in awful weather conditions.

 

Yes, I would've loved for the D to force a TO on downs or otherwise. But, regardless of circumstances, and on this particular high-leverage series, I would consider this a "stop" or damn near it.

 

Put it this way: at 1:52, if you would've told me I could have that non-ST result (again, irrespective of play sequence), I'd say "ok, I'll take that chance".

 

Btw: I'm not/not talking about the more general--and obvious--problem of late-game D failures.

I think over time a lot more people will agree with this…even if next gen stats got it perfectly accurate that’s a pretty unbelievable result that they ended up with a 20% chance to make the fg

 

yes there were penalties but they had a down to get some of that yardage back and gained 0 yards

 

the defense in ot was an unmitigated disaster though for sure 

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2 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

Seems like its either that or he all out blitzes like he chose to do against Russel Wilson that cost us the game on that floater he threw to Jeudy that got the P.I. call on Taron.   

 

If he just rushed four and played our normal defense we probably win both the Eagles and Broncos games not to mention the 13 seconds game.

 

McD just got an extended contract, he isn't getting fired.  His strength is leadership and creating a strong team brotherhood, but he needs support for his game coaching, he falls short there and it's been proven time and time again.    Help the guy, don't fire the guy.  Get the quality control/game managers in the booth to call the time outs, manage the plays/clock and end of half end of game strategies.   He wasn't good at that BEFORE he had to call a defensive play every down, so instead of giving him less to think about we actually put more on his plate.     

 

We pride ourselves on developing and supporting our players, lets do it for McD.

How is McDermott a good leader?  What does he say that is remotely smart witty intelligent or inspiring?

 

As for a team brotherhood.  That's on the players.  Most like each other.  Some are outliers, as in any group in society.  But when they are on the field they should all want to win for themselves, each other and their fans.  

 

Coaches need to put a game plan together given who their opponent is that gives their team the best chance to be successful.  And while the game is being played, they need to scheme and make decisions on the fly that continue to give their team the best chance to come out victorious.  In the biggest games, McDermott has come up short time and again.  He has hit his ceiling, and has been figured out.  Time for a change.  

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19 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

How is McDermott a good leader?  What does he say that is remotely smart witty intelligent or inspiring?

 

As for a team brotherhood.  That's on the players.  Most like each other.  Some are outliers, as in any group in society.  But when they are on the field they should all want to win for themselves, each other and their fans.  

 

Coaches need to put a game plan together given who their opponent is that gives their team the best chance to be successful.  And while the game is being played, they need to scheme and make decisions on the fly that continue to give their team the best chance to come out victorious.  In the biggest games, McDermott has come up short time and again.  He has hit his ceiling, and has been figured out.  Time for a change.  

See, I think we are going too far with the McDermott hate now. I think he clearly has game management issues but this team has a lot of personalities and has had some really tough circumstances (Hamlin, blizzard, Diggs, etc) and has kept us together through it. I would never question him as a leader. 

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27 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

Why is Orlovsky not a coach in the NFL?

Because coaching sucks. Awful hours, people want to fire you after one game, losers hassle your kids. nice paycheck if you make it high enough and there’s nothing like winning a game/ championship. But there are a lot of drawbacks compared to a cushy tv gig. 
 

id rather be in the front office if I worked for a nfl team.

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8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Because coaching sucks. Awful hours, people want to fire you after one game, losers hassle your kids. nice paycheck if you make it high enough and there’s nothing like winning a game/ championship. But there are a lot of drawbacks compared to a cushy tv gig. 
 

id rather be in the front office if I worked for a nfl team.

 

Same reason Fitz isnt coaching. He made close to $100M and has a cushy, high paying announcing gig. Who would EVER give that up so they can have the privilege of never seeing their family, working 20 hour days, and having everyone hate you?

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No one seems to mention that the Bills and Josh Allen WON the turnover differential.   

 

No one mentions the bad calls either.  They point out what we did to hurt ourselves, but not what was done to us as well.  

 

An incomplete analysis by people who did not watch the game, Orlovsky aside.

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32 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

See, I think we are going too far with the McDermott hate now. I think he clearly has game management issues but this team has a lot of personalities and has had some really tough circumstances (Hamlin, blizzard, Diggs, etc) and has kept us together through it. I would never question him as a leader. 

He passive aggressively throws his players and coaches under the bus all the time .

 

He never says “it’s my fault “.

 

listen to a Dan Campbell post game press after a loss compared to MCD. 

 

MCD never takes any ownership and that is a sign of a terrible leader 

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52 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

See, I think we are going too far with the McDermott hate now. I think he clearly has game management issues but this team has a lot of personalities and has had some really tough circumstances (Hamlin, blizzard, Diggs, etc) and has kept us together through it. I would never question him as a leader. 

Lol this team does not have a lot of personalities and that's by design, on the WR diva scale Diggs is probably a 3

 

Credit for tough circumstances? What, for not sitting out the rest of the year? They folded like a tent end of last season

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3 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

In fairness,  that was like a 1/25 type fg make and even that feels generous.  
 

The defense held on to win a lot last year,  this disappointing season seems to have given people fuzzy memories.  Even in losses they pulled off some impressive holds like the Minnesota game where they had a pretty amazing goal line stand then the offense fumbled it away 

 

it’s kind of funny you mention the ravens game from two years ago because our defense saved the game with a late INT against that very same team the next season and you don’t remember it 😂
 

in total they stopped the opponent with a chance to win on a final drive in all these games:

kc

bal

Min 

Mia x3 (defense had good field position game 1)


partial credit for NYJ game 1 (long drive but held to a fg so we could tie with a fg.  Plenty of time for the offense to at least tie who took over and did nothing)

 

partial credit for NYJ game 2 (we were up 8 so the best they could do was tie)

 

Partial credit for lions….(held to a fg to keep the game tied then the offense won it with 30 seconds left) 

 

so depending on how you look at it the defense held somewhere between 6-9 games.   The rest of the games were pretty much blowout wins.  Defense at least debatably held up in 100% of their opportunities on late drives 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, I don't let facts get in the way of my cherished narratives, ok? 😉

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8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

2015 Tyrod Taylor with more willingness to take risks IMO

 

 

Yeah the similarities are notable.   Putting big time play making talent around quarterbacks with the traits to throw the deep ball and run for yardage works.    Athletically,  Hurts is a load to bring down but he is less dynamic 2015 Tyrod........who had a higher yards per attempt(8 to 7.5) AND yards per rush(5.5 to 3.6) than Hurts has this season.

 

I'm not going run Hurts down too much because I think he is a very smart, well prepared QB even if he lacks great arm talent.........but it would be interesting to find out what he'd look like if AJ Brown or DeVonta Smith went down for about 8 weeks or so.   As you and I know,  the quality of that second option is hugely important.

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18 hours ago, Comebackkid said:

It's basically the same thing we had going on before McDermott took over. The defense is great spread out over the average. The problem is when you need a great defense to make a stand you don't have it. Part of that is we don't have a Bruce Smith, we no longer have a healthy Von Miller. The other part of that is the coaching philosophy that falls apart when you need it the most.

The entire problem with a scheme like this, you can hide mediocre talent with it, waiting on the other team to screw up.  However, you sell your soul to stop either the run or the pass in big moments UNLESS you have elite talent, that leaves you susceptible to getting crushed in big moments.  The reason Tony Dungy got fired in Tampa was the same issue, bend, don’t break, only works if you have room to bend.     McD will get fired is just that, it doesn’t work when you can’t bend.

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13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah the similarities are notable.   Putting big time play making talent around quarterbacks with the traits to throw the deep ball and run for yardage works.    Athletically,  Hurts is a load to bring down but he is less dynamic 2015 Tyrod........who had a higher yards per attempt(8 to 7.5) AND yards per rush(5.5 to 3.6) than Hurts has this season.

 

I'm not going run Hurts down too much because I think he is a very smart, well prepared QB even if he lacks great arm talent.........but it would be interesting to find out what he'd look like if AJ Brown or DeVonta Smith went down for about 8 weeks or so.   As you and I know,  the quality of that second option is hugely important.

Isn’t that the case for almost every qb not named Mahomes? I know people hate him but Gabe Davis would be a big loss. 
 

Quote

Hurts also has won 14 straight games against teams with winning records, the longest such streak in NFL history.

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/eagles-bills-stats-jalen-hurts-jordan-davis-20231128.html#:~:text=Hurts also has won 14,a number of different ways.
 

that is an amazing stat. Maybe the guy who outplayed Mahomes in the SB is just really good.

Edited by C.Biscuit97
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13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah the similarities are notable.   Putting big time play making talent around quarterbacks with the traits to throw the deep ball and run for yardage works.    Athletically,  Hurts is a load to bring down but he is less dynamic 2015 Tyrod........who had a higher yards per attempt(8 to 7.5) AND yards per rush(5.5 to 3.6) than Hurts has this season.

 

I'm not going run Hurts down too much because I think he is a very smart, well prepared QB even if he lacks great arm talent.........but it would be interesting to find out what he'd look like if AJ Brown or DeVonta Smith went down for about 8 weeks or so.   As you and I know,  the quality of that second option is hugely important.

I think this is what you'd see - the 2021 version of him, when he only had a rookie Smith: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/2021.htm. His numbers were pretty Tyrod like, which doesn't mean bad (Tyrod was a decent player for the Bills). 

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3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Isn’t that the case for almost every qb not named Mahomes? I know people hate him but Gabe Davis would be a big loss. 
 

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/eagles-bills-stats-jalen-hurts-jordan-davis-20231128.html#:~:text=Hurts also has won 14,a number of different ways.
 

that is an amazing stat. Maybe the guy who outplayed Mahomes in the SB is just really good.

I'll say this about him - I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone improve year-to-year like him, and this goes back to college. I remember him getting benched for Tua vs Georgia, and I thought, put him out of his misery -- the man can't throw and also has an incredibly slow release. No chance at the next level. Props to him for always improving year to year. I think he's plateaued, but that plateau is pretty elevated.

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On 11/27/2023 at 11:38 PM, HappyDays said:

I time stamped it to the exact point in the video. It goes until 7:30.

 

 

 

It's mind blowing. The exact same spot on the field over and over and over again, and we never adjusted. Great breakdown by Dan Orlovsky.

 

Kind of off topic, but Dan Orlovsky is the only person on this panel that has a clue. I feel bad for him, putting so much work in while his coworkers make fools of themselves. Take it from me and don't bother watching anything before the time stamp or after 7:30.

I think that entire panel is AWESOME, especially Laura😎

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1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

I'll say this about him - I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone improve year-to-year like him, and this goes back to college. I remember him getting benched for Tua vs Georgia, and I thought, put him out of his misery -- the man can't throw and also has an incredibly slow release. No chance at the next level. Props to him for always improving year to year. I think he's plateaued, but that plateau is pretty elevated.


He also tends to be his sharpest when the team needs it—like connecting with Smith deep to spark  comebacks the last two weeks. 

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42 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Isn’t that the case for almost every qb not named Mahomes? I know people hate him but Gabe Davis would be a big loss. 
 

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/eagles-bills-stats-jalen-hurts-jordan-davis-20231128.html#:~:text=Hurts also has won 14,a number of different ways.
 

that is an amazing stat. Maybe the guy who outplayed Mahomes in the SB is just really good.

 

 

1) The quality of a teams second receiving target has been a remarkable indicator of which teams reach the SB for the past 15 years or so but especially the last 6 SB's.........where the second options on those SB participants all were basically WR1B's or put up WR1 numbers.

 

People express "hate" about Beane stranding Allen with Gabe as his #2 because he's so clearly not in that category.............so you are reading that entirely the wrong way.     The Bills lack depth at WR but Gabe isn't a good second option and it's a lot easier to envision Shakir or Sherfield(even) replacing Gabe's wildly inconsistent play than it would be anyone on the Eagles replacing Brown or Smith.

 

2) The flip side is that Hurts took the better roster........including better blocking, receiving and running game.........and got beat by a QB playing on a high ankle sprain.    When Hurts handed the Chiefs those 7 points by setting the ball on the ground and fumbling it to KC for 7 points that totally changed the momentum of the game so I have never felt that he "outplayed" Mahomes.   

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1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

2) The flip side is that Hurts took the better roster........including better blocking, receiving and running game.........and got beat by a QB playing on a high ankle sprain.    When Hurts handed the Chiefs those 7 points by setting the ball on the ground and fumbling it to KC for 7 points that totally changed the momentum of the game so I have never felt that he "outplayed" Mahomes.   

Funny how that TO, much worse then the INT Allen threw on Sunday, is forgotten in the near universal praise of Hurts play in last years SB.  Yet Allen who played better on Sunday is having his spectacular performance negated by ONE INT.  There is something weird going on in the Allen criticisms as they're getting more unhinged as the season progresses.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Funny how that TO, much worse then the INT Allen threw on Sunday, is forgotten in the near universal praise of Hurts play in last years SB.  Yet Allen who played better on Sunday is having his spectacular performance negated by ONE INT.  There is something weird going on in the Allen criticisms as they're getting more unhinged as the season progresses.

 

 

 

You’re comparing the SB to a regular season game??? How does that even make sense? A game where Hurts had almost 400 yards and 4 tds??? Because of a fumble? That’s literally an insane comparison. 
 

how many SBs win if Kelly (an awful postseason qb) had close to that game that Hurts had, despite that fumble?

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2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I'll say this about him - I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone improve year-to-year like him, and this goes back to college. I remember him getting benched for Tua vs Georgia, and I thought, put him out of his misery -- the man can't throw and also has an incredibly slow release. No chance at the next level. Props to him for always improving year to year. I think he's plateaued, but that plateau is pretty elevated.

I thought he was undraftable coming out, after his first year playing, I was still sure I was spot on.  Then he broke out like Allen did.  He’s playing great football.

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