DORSEY FIRED, Joe Brady Interim OC

[iinii]

Where are all the apologists now? When I questioned the lack of experience and leadership early on the fan boys couldn’t stop telling me how wrong I was. McDermott is repeatedly getting out coached. Dabs is getting his hat handed to him weekly in the Meadowlands. The coordinators are puppets. Beane is in over his head. Allen is still in Wyoming thinking hero ball wins. Wyoming is single A ball. Looks like the process is not progressing.  Next. 

[RunTheBall]

I'm off the McD train but I fully expect him to be here next year. 

 

All this talk about scapegoating is ridiculous. The season is essentially over and something radical had to be done to try and salvage anything in case Miami has its usual swoon and we somehow sneak into the playoffs (I do not expect this)

 

If McD was looking to cover his ass he would have waited until the end of the season to sacrifice Dorsey instead of a mid season change which rarely works out. 

 

I also think it was a wakeup call to Josh to get his head out of his ass and be the QB and leadsr we know he can be. 

[John from Riverside]

10 minutes ago, iinii said:

Where are all the apologists now? When I questioned the lack of experience and leadership early on the fan boys couldn’t stop telling me how wrong I was. McDermott is repeatedly getting out coached. Dabs is getting his hat handed to him weekly in the Meadowlands. The coordinators are puppets. Beane is in over his head. Allen is still in Wyoming thinking hero ball wins. Wyoming is single A ball. Looks like the process is not progressing.  Next. 

Why do people keep changing their screen names on here?

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, RunTheBall said:

I also think it was a wakeup call to Josh to get his head out of his ass and be the QB and leadsr we know he can be. 

Well if this was the intent then we have a better chance of Miami collapsing and sneaking into the playoffs as a division champ.  Not because I don't think Allen can get out of this rough patch and be the QB we know he can be. But I'm pessimistic because I don't believe Allen struggling is the most important part of why our offense is struggling. The Bills O has deep systemic issues arising from 5 years of neglect and their over reliance on Allen being great.  You can't just turn that around by yanking Allen's "head out of his ass." 

 

Until this franchise commits to the offense and that includes coaching then the best we can hope for is when Allen is playing great over an extended period of time the Bills can win the Division and even win a playoff game or two.  But that's it. That's the Bills ceiling as this franchise is structured. And I come to this conclusion just considering how the Bills have screwed up their priorities in favoring the D over the O while having an elite franchise QB.  This doesn't even take into account that McD has not been able to create an elite D and his tactical mistakes in games is becoming legend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iinii]

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Why do people keep changing their screen names on here?

You tell me. This has been mine for longer than I can remember. 

[NewEra]

14 minutes ago, iinii said:

Where are all the apologists now? When I questioned the lack of experience and leadership early on the fan boys couldn’t stop telling me how wrong I was. McDermott is repeatedly getting out coached. Dabs is getting his hat handed to him weekly in the Meadowlands. The coordinators are puppets. Beane is in over his head. Allen is still in Wyoming thinking hero ball wins. Wyoming is single A ball. Looks like the process is not progressing.  Next. 

 

1 minute ago, iinii said:

You tell me. This has been mine for longer than I can remember. 

My first time ever seeing your screen name.  
 

But thanks for letting us all know about the future of the Bills before it even happened. You are stellar!  Get off the couch and go run an nfl team. You deserve it

[iinii]

Just now, NewEra said:

 

My first time ever seeing your screen name.  
 

But thanks for letting us all know about the future of the Bills before it even happened. You are stellar!  Get off the couch and go run an nfl team. You deserve it

Since 2008. Never a change and no bots. 🤷🏼‍♀️ I do deserve it. Thanks for noticing 

[Fleezoid]

3 hours ago, DJB said:

Has there been a post about how J Brady likes to run his offense?

 

Yes. Page 9 in the Joe Brady thread. There's a link to a good article there. You can also get it at cbssports.com.

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, iinii said:

Since 2008. Never a change and no bots. 🤷🏼‍♀️ I do deserve it. Thanks for noticing 

My apologies I guess your post was so idiotic that it stuck out in a losing week

[iinii]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

My apologies I guess your post was so idiotic that it stuck out in a losing week

I am not the one that gift wrapped a win for Denver. If you are looking for idiots start at OBD. Eleven comes right before twelve. Sorry you can’t handle the truth. 

[billsfanmd07]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I was just thinking about how Dorsey was a big 12 personnel guy. We’ve signed an average TE to $13 million a year and drafted another 1st round TE during the Dorsey tenure.

I don’t see any Brandon Beane threads anywhere.

 

Prob wrong thread but how do you get players (knox)  to take a pay cut? They do happen instead of just reworking contracts. Threaten to cut outright? Tell them we need to use money elsewhere and we will cut you this summer and move on if you dont?

[John from Riverside]

5 minutes ago, iinii said:

I am not the one that gift wrapped a win for Denver. If you are looking for idiots start at OBD. Eleven comes right before twelve. Sorry you can’t handle the truth. 

There are only so many coaching positions in the NFL, and they are filled by the very best literally you could not have one of these positions
 

What do you do in your life that makes you so successful to look down on the others

[Bruffalo]

2 minutes ago, billsfanmd07 said:

Prob wrong thread but how do you get players (knox)  to take a pay cut? They do happen instead of just reworking contracts. Threaten to cut outright? Tell them we need to use money elsewhere and we will cut you this summer and move on if you dont?

I'm probably the only one on this board who thinks the Knox contract isn't bad at all. He's an excellent red zone threat, a great blocker, and right in the middle of the pack in passing catching TEs. 

 

Dorsey sucked and I'm somewhat convinced that Knox's regression is partially due to that. 

[billsfanmd07]

Just now, Bruffalo said:

I'm probably the only one on this board who thinks the Knox contract isn't bad at all. He's an excellent red zone threat, a great blocker, and right in the middle of the pack in passing catching TEs. 

 

Dorsey sucked and I'm somewhat convinced that Knox's regression is partially due to that. 

Problem now is we have 2 TE and so far we have failed with both on the field...Maybe use Kincaid as our slot guy and try for mismatches.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, billsfanmd07 said:

Problem now is we have 2 TE and so far we have failed with both on the field...Maybe use Kincaid as our slot guy and try for mismatches.

 

The good news is, as you point out, they are not both the same kind of "tight end".

[Bruffalo]

Just now, billsfanmd07 said:

Problem now is we have 2 TE and so far we have failed with both on the field...Maybe use Kincaid as our slot guy and try for mismatches.

It's too early to call it a failure since Knox got injured and Kincaid was getting up to speed as a rookie, and by the time he did Knox hasn't been able to take the field.  

I think somebody a bit more creative would love to use the 12 personnel set that the Bills have.  There's a lot of talent there. Dorsey just couldn't do it and there seems to be universal consensus in the football community that he was a big part of the problem.  

[billsfanmd07]

17 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

It's too early to call it a failure since Knox got injured and Kincaid was getting up to speed as a rookie, and by the time he did Knox hasn't been able to take the field.  

I think somebody a bit more creative would love to use the 12 personnel set that the Bills have.  There's a lot of talent there. Dorsey just couldn't do it and there seems to be universal consensus in the football community that he was a big part of the problem.  

Would love to see Davis start off on bench and use both TE, Diggs, shakir, isabella to be the every blade of grass guy.

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, billsfanmd07 said:

Would love to see Davis start off on bench and use both TE, Diggs, shakir, isabella to be the every blade of grass guy.

 

Funny enough, the best our offense has looked all year was the first week after Knox's injury (Tampa) where we used Davis as more of a WR/TE hybrid and got him in those short/underneath routes and ran Kincaid as a TE/WR hybrid at the same time as well.

 

Practically NO real TEs.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

I'm probably the only one on this board who thinks the Knox contract isn't bad at all. He's an excellent red zone threat, a great blocker, and right in the middle of the pack in passing catching TEs. 

 

Dorsey sucked and I'm somewhat convinced that Knox's regression is partially due to that. 

 

It isnt. Looking at his production and where he lands in the list, it's pretty fair and accurate. Plus, it's only year 1 of the new contract and it will only look better after another round of FA.

 

Worth keeping around at that price even just as the blocking/red zone TE option.

 

Plenty of other players that need to be cut to save money before we get to Knox.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

1 hour ago, Bruffalo said:

I'm probably the only one on this board who thinks the Knox contract isn't bad at all. He's an excellent red zone threat, a great blocker, and right in the middle of the pack in passing catching TEs. 

 

Dorsey sucked and I'm somewhat convinced that Knox's regression is partially due to that. 

His contract isn't near the issue that it's made out to be, as he can and will be a very valuable piece on offense (his contract isn't bad at all, it's not good by any circumstance but bad it's not)

 

I think the Knox hate/dislike all stems from fans seeing Kincaid is better and the coaching staff/Allen not moving towards Kincaid sooner 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, iinii said:

Since 2008. Never a change and no bots. 🤷🏼‍♀️ I do deserve it. Thanks for noticing 

How could we not notice!?!?

[Wayne Arnold]

16 hours ago, 90sBills said:

Hard to make plays when your qb throws it to the guy covering you. Cincy game. 

 

If your qb keeps making boneheaded decisions it really doesn’t matter who’s calling the plays. 

 

Your take is that quarterbacks need to be perfect to expect a chance to win. Got it.

[gobills404]

2 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Do you watch film?  Never said I'm an expert.   I watch the all 22.  I follow people much smarter in analyzing film as well.  He is missing reads, a lot of them. 

That must be why his completion% and successful play% are so low. No chance in hell they’re both second best in the league. Oh wait.

[FLFan]

2 hours ago, iinii said:

Where are all the apologists now? When I questioned the lack of experience and leadership early on the fan boys couldn’t stop telling me how wrong I was. McDermott is repeatedly getting out coached. Dabs is getting his hat handed to him weekly in the Meadowlands. The coordinators are puppets. Beane is in over his head. Allen is still in Wyoming thinking hero ball wins. Wyoming is single A ball. Looks like the process is not progressing.  Next. 

When people start their posts with throwing out terms like “apologists” and “fan boys” you can be pretty sure what follows   will be ignorant and you do not disappoint.  

[RunTheBall]

1 hour ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

His contract isn't near the issue that it's made out to be, as he can and will be a very valuable piece on offense (his contract isn't bad at all, it's not good by any circumstance but bad it's not)

 

I think the Knox hate/dislike all stems from fans seeing Kincaid is better and the coaching staff/Allen not moving towards Kincaid sooner 

I think this is another indictment of Dorsey. Knox and Kincaid are different players with complementary skill sets. A good OC would be able to get both of them involved regularly, not one or the other. Then once you establish that, you can use trend breakers by switching them up because Knox can catch and Kincaid can block. It’s not friggin rocket science and Dorsey makes offense more complicated than in needs to be.

 

Scheme against and Attack a defenses weaknesses. When something works, do it until they stop it. When all else fails, unleash the Joshinator and let him do his thing. Unfortunately with Dorsey, it was all Josh all the time yet they clipped his wings and expected him to be the same guy. 

[90sBills]

45 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Your take is that quarterbacks need to be perfect to expect a chance to win. Got it.

Right. And yours is Allen is doing great right now. Expecting your franchise elite qb to not make rookie mistakes is too much to ask in your book apparently. Hopefully that’s not the sentiment at OBD or this team will never win a championship. 

[hondo in seattle]

On 11/14/2023 at 8:56 AM, Buffalo Boy said:

   Late to thread but Brady ain’t all that unless he’s suddenly learned how to scheme in runs on offense.

   Brady was putrid in Carolina !!!

 

With Matt Rhule running the offense as the HC.  

[finn]

It's possible that Dorsey is the problem, it really is. Allen's interceptions and subsequent malaise might flow from poor play designs and calls that minimize rather than maximize success. Allen might be playing as well as he has despite Dorsey instead of because of him. If so, a coordinator who "gets" him might help make him the best QB in the league. Knox, Kincaid, Diggs, Shakir, and the running backs should be enough firepower to pull it off. (Davis I would bench, once and for all. The guy is net liability.)

 

But it's also possible that the whole team has lost its way. They came out swinging after the 13 seconds game but were in a bad place by the end of the season. Maybe they would have rallied this year, but losing Milano, White, and Jones in quick succession could have created a sense they're cursed, snake-bit. If so, replacing Dorsey won't do the trick. They'd need to fire McDermott and start over again. They could instantly be a SB contender with the right leadership. 

 

Me, I think it's both Dorsey and McDermott. Perfect scenario: the fired Daboll comes back as OC, Frazier returns as DC, and Eric Bieniemy is named head coach. Perfect blend of continuity, familiarity, and new energy. 

[hondo in seattle]

I don't get some of the impassioned defenses of Dorsey.  

 

When I watch football, I'm just a fan.  I watch the guy with the ball.  I don't have the expertise or the inclination to break down the play in any detail.  But after the game, I do like to watch the x-and-o breakdowns by guys like Eric Turner, Kurt Warner, J.T. O'Sullivan, and Dan Orlovsky. 

 

And the more video I watched, the more I lost faith in Dorsey.  While all of these gurus have pointed out problems in scheme and play-calling, Orlovsky may have been the most vocal critic, insisting that “the Bills are the easiest team in the NFL right now to prepare for… the play calling has been wildly predictable…  the Bills offense is schematically broken.”  He'll happily support these opinions with examples and video.

 

It's true that Dorsey didn't fumble the ball, throw the pic, fail to block the rushing DE, or any of that.  Coaches need to coach and players need to execute.  But I don't know how anyone can be a supporter of Dorsey after they've studied the tape.   I'm not even saying Dorsey is horrible and will never coach again.  It's just clear that he was not the guy to optimize the production of Josh and this offense.   

 

Believe whatever you want to believe about McD, but Dorsey had to go. 

 

 

 

 

[Dablitzkrieg]

42 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

That must be why his completion% and successful play% are so low. No chance in hell they’re both second best in the league. Oh wait.

If you are too blind to see that both of these things can be true, that's a you problem.

[Wayne Arnold]

11 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

Right. And yours is Allen is doing great right now. Expecting your franchise elite qb to not make rookie mistakes is too much to ask in your book apparently. Hopefully that’s not the sentiment at OBD or this team will never win a championship. 

 

He's not doing "great" per se. But he's still elite and is dealing with a crappy offensive scheme, dumb play calling, inconsistently reliable WR corp, being on a stale franchise where the head coach has lost the locker room and the defense and special teams have fallen off a cliff, and horrible luck.

 

And regarding his "rookie mistakes" and turnovers, I'm going to keep posting this:

 

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

He's not doing "great" per se. But he's still elite and is dealing with a crappy offensive scheme, dumb play calling, inconsistently reliable WR corp, being on a stale franchise where the head coach has lost the locker room and the defense and special teams have fallen off a cliff, and horrible luck.

 

And regarding his "rookie mistakes" and turnovers, I'm going to keep posting this:

 

 

Look this is McDermott using the last "blame" he can before Terry has to fire his butt.  McDermott has been the problem and he needs to go.

3 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

I'm off the McD train but I fully expect him to be here next year. 

 

All this talk about scapegoating is ridiculous. The season is essentially over and something radical had to be done to try and salvage anything in case Miami has its usual swoon and we somehow sneak into the playoffs (I do not expect this)

 

If McD was looking to cover his ass he would have waited until the end of the season to sacrifice Dorsey instead of a mid season change which rarely works out. 

 

I also think it was a wakeup call to Josh to get his head out of his ass and be the QB and leadsr we know he can be. 

Maybe Josh isn't motivated because he is thinking "WTF bother?"  Has that ever occurred to anyone?  He knows what he is up against in McDermott and as I said a couple of weeks ago, I feel the ONLY way this is resolved is for Josh to set up a one-on-one with Terry and say "If he stays, then I go. I'll give you the rest of the season, but after that, a decision has to be made".

[Orlando Tim]

16 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I hear you, but I would mildly disagree. This is the team for that, as long as you're doing some other things also. At times the efficient offense has worked really well here. But you need more as well. Even Brady would take deep shots sometimes when the defenses made them available.

 

Somebody had to go. Some changes had to be made. They needed to diverge, at least a bit, from what was happening on this offense.

 

I feel bad for Dorsey too. He's not completely to blame, but he did carry a very significant share of the blame, and he didn't appear willing to make major changes as things got worse. My guess is he learns from this and is an OC again, but five to eight years down the road with some more experience under his belt and more tricks up his sleeve.

I agree a change had to be made and I will state I think Dorsey had a responsibility to change his game plans if Josh kept playing this way. Dorsey will learn from it and likely be a great coach at his next stop with an understanding that he has to build around his QBs tendencies as much as his abilities.

[BuffaloMatt]

22 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

Why? Is the coach hitting those short punts? How about on the coverage of punts….are the players not responsible for staying in their lanes, shedding blocks, and making good tackles?

 

This Bills team is FILLED with players who DO NOT execute….DO NOT DO THEIR JOBS….on game days. Have been seeing it ALL YEAR LONG. Yes, coaching is integral to a successful team, BUT there is only so much the coaches can do. Like I’ve said a few times in here recently, it looks like a lot of these players are just in it for the paycheck, and could not care less whether they win or lose. Missing the playoffs means more time off for them, and I’m certain many players are just fine with that.

Special teams needed to be able to count to twelve.

 

The punter with the dead leg need is a different story all together. He needed to be told to punt differently. If you are going to punt a line drive because your leg can't get hang time and distance at the same time then kick the line drive down the sideline to go out of bounds, not down the middle right to their return man. 

[Wayne Arnold]

3 minutes ago, Orlando Tim said:

I agree a change had to be made and I will state I think Dorsey had a responsibility to change his game plans if Josh kept playing this way. Dorsey will learn from it and likely be a great coach at his next stop with an understanding that he has to build around his QBs tendencies as much as his abilities.

 

I don't see Dorsey ever being a "great coach". If he had that potential he would have thrived here.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

On 11/14/2023 at 11:28 AM, May Day 10 said:

You wonder if McDermott took him out to the woodshed.... or if this move was forced/pressured by ownership

Vic Carucci on SiriusXM immediately after the firing said that Pegula meets with McDermott after the games before McDermott talks to the media. Vic said that McDermott is feeling the heat.

[Bob Jones]

8 minutes ago, BuffaloMatt said:

Special teams needed to be able to count to twelve.

Seems obvious to me that one player may have screwed up big time. I assume that the FG defensive unit is always the same 11 guys, so unless one of those guys was injured, who was the 12th guy who shouldn’t have been out there? After Wilson did the kneel down on 3rd down (that play started with :24 left), the Broncos had to run their FG team out there (as the clock was running) and the Bills ran at least FIVE guys from the sideline out there, going from their Dime Pkg to the FG unit. There really wasn’t time for a Bills defensive Capt to do a head count at that point; and it wouldn’t have mattered anyway because they couldn't call a TO, and there wouldn’t have been enough time for the 12th man to run off the field.

 

Bottom line is that during those two previous TOs that the Bills took (after Denver's 1st and 2nd downs, immediately after the PI call on Johnson) everything should have been planned out as to who was going to be out there for the FG. Hell, the FG defensive unit should have been put out there on 3rd down.

[DrDawkinstein]

22 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

Why? Is the coach hitting those short punts? How about on the coverage of punts….are the players not responsible for staying in their lanes, shedding blocks, and making good tackles?

 

This Bills team is FILLED with players who DO NOT execute….DO NOT DO THEIR JOBS….on game days. Have been seeing it ALL YEAR LONG. Yes, coaching is integral to a successful team, BUT there is only so much the coaches can do. Like I’ve said a few times in here recently, it looks like a lot of these players are just in it for the paycheck, and could not care less whether they win or lose. Missing the playoffs means more time off for them, and I’m certain many players are just fine with that.

 

 

When it's a couple players, that's on the players.

 

When it is practically the entire team, that is on coaching.

 

These guys all made the NFL. They know how to do the basics. Better than anyone who posts here. Better than even the best athlete you've ever personally known.

 

The fact that they aren't means coaching has them demotivated and/or confused by asinine gameplans.

[WideNine]

20 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Mahomes has no alternatives, and Cincy's WR setup is unheard of anywhere else around the league, and will soon be over as soon as they have to pay Higgins.

 

They have top notch Offensive coaching that schemes guys open and innovates new plays. Biggest difference.

 

Agree with the Cinci embarrassment of WR riches.

 

But...

 

Burrow also reads defenses pre-snap very well and is usually #1 or #2 in the league at getting the ball out of his hands quickly - less pressures and sacks.

 

Burrow has also taken care of the ball better with only 6 INTs to Allen's 11 and only 2 fumbles to Allen's 4.

 

You have to take care of the ball. Especially when your defense is not generating much in the way of their own turnovers.

 

We have been on the wrong side of the turnover battle for most of this season and that is the most correlated statistic you hear for winning or losing games.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Koufax]

McD cannot fire the head coach, also can't fire the defensive coordinator (who is doing a pretty good job anyway).

 

Dorsey has been doing a bad job. We know others have as well including Josh, but we can't change those places as easily. We have a great QB, a healthy OLine that should be great. An elite WR1 an excellent TE1, good skill players. We have seen what we can be when doing things right, just ask the Dolphins. And we are on a long cold stretch.

 

I think the problems with Dorsey go back a while, but this year we first asked Josh to be Bledsoe 2.0. While the reality is more QB injuries happen in the pocket.

 

The problems got bigger when Josh hurt his shoulder a little, and when Knox went out. But the problems start with Dorsey if he is the playcaller, and his inability to find the right plays for this offense to execute and build drives. When we are passing the ball 7-15 yards downfield, amazing things happen. If you can hit 1 or 2 out of 3 of those you get a first down and keep things going.  Josh being able to recognize pressure and get it out quick when those are the play designs is much easier then when we have something else going on. And Josh to be able to recognize coverage and run for 7-15 yards happens faster and clearer and earlier in the rush than our deeper concepts. We are not and should not be a establish the run early team. Our best running with Cook usually hits in the second half as the defense tires and when we have established the pass.

 

This is all an oversimplification, but when you have a passer who has been as accurate as Josh, and who can run like Josh, you take advantage of his accuracy for possession passing and his mobility for early escapes that make sense in the medium passing game timing, but don't when we are waiting for a deep ball to happen.

 

And I know that Gabe gets mostly left out of this (deep decoy or occasional deep strike when the safeties get shallower), but starting with Diggs we have amazing medium route options.

 

Dorsey failed to make an adjustment in this direction, and while I think his firing is a week too late (and likely hurt our chances significantly for the playoffs, as if the spark happens with the long week and a weaker team and we get to 6-4...), but I think it is the correct tactical choice, in addition to the reactionary "do something" like when an MLB team fires the hitting coach.

[Peter]

18 hours ago, FireChans said:

The offense has been bad since like week 4 dude. It was rough a decent amount last year too. Josh looks like a worse QB than he was two years ago.

 

That’s gonna get an OC fired 10/10 times.  The advanced analytics are garbage and pumped up by late game heroics and kicking around tomato can teams.

 

This is for you "dude":

 

 

I posted this elsewhere but it also is pertinent here for all of you Dorsey haters: