DORSEY FIRED, Joe Brady Interim OC

[WideNine]

8 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I agree... with a qualifier.  

 

I'd say that Allen is a top-tier QB with the right coaching. 

 

I think Allen would set records under Andy Reid, for example.  But I don't think every NFL HC or OC would know how to optimize Allen's strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  

 

Yep.

 

Last night was a perfect example of the frustration an OC may have with Allen.

 

Will wait to see what Marino and others have to say, but that pick he threw deep in our end of the field looked way similar to the one he tossed to the Bengals with a similar defense (only 3 - rushers, little pressure, and some knowledgeable folks said they were just playing quarters where the defender underneath was able to close on that poor pass).

That pick clearly shook Allen up and was in his head for a while... if he did throw the same kind of pick in the same kind of way in the same kind of situation, I could see why it would be hard to shake that off.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by WideNine

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

9 minutes ago, WideNine said:

I am old enough to remember how folks got fed up with Wade Phillips and pushed for his exit and we went through 2 decades of terrible HCs.

Not saying Wade did not have his blind spots - he did, but the org definitely took several steps backwards when he left. Sometimes it is about where someone fits best to do the best job they can do. I think McD is better suited as a HC that is more focused on managing the coaches and staff and ensuring QC for the team. As he has become more involved with the defense the overall quality of the team preparation and ability to execute in all 3 phases has trended downward.

Before he is run out the door with pitchforks and torches the organization may be better served going back to a formula that was working. And that was having a DC who could get in the weeds of preparing that side of the ball, and OC that is a proven offensive coach that can manage that side of the team while McD manages the overall team quality and coordination.

Dorsey was going to be held accountable for an offense that has taken steps backwards and that is a tough lesson for Allen who is the key piece of executing his offense. At the end of the day the performance of the players on offense really does affect the jobs and careers of coaches and coordinators.

 

 

4 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said:

Wade was a defensive coach and his defense often were lights out  He didn't get the right guys to run the offense and never had a qb of Josh's caliber  A Wade Phillips defense didnt give up leads at end of games often

Ask any call in sports expert of the era, it was Wade not wearing headphones to keep in touch with the staff in the booth that doomed his tenure.  You could hear  Larry Felser's blood pressure spiking when Murphy would open the phone lines on Monday nights. 🤣

[JimBob2232]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

McDermott just pulled a power play and people aren't seeing it.

 

Josh is being paid 43M per, so he isn't going anywhere.  Still, he reportedly had input into elevating Dorsey to OC, but the decision was McD's.  

 

McD has fired 4 coordinators in 7 years and likely will be under scrutiny if Buffalo doesn't get to the SB.  That's highly unlikely with this roster.  

 

Now, McD can spin this hire (and firing now) of Dorsey into that Josh wanted him and he did what he thought best for the franchise QB.  

 

McD gets another crack at an OC if the season continues going sideways.  And probably doesn't get fired by TPegs for this (so-far) bad season. 

 

Might seem a bit Machiavellian, but this is McD we're talking about.  

he had no choice.  One has to go.  The lower level one went.  Obvious call.  Now the question is whether McDermott goes or if beene/pegula gives another chance.  IMO that depends on if things turn around or if they are still as toxic as they appear.   
 

I feel like we need to clean house and bring in a new staff.  But also - I trust Beane to figure that out.  His loyalty to McDermott might be too much of a bias though.  
 

we’ll see…

[WideNine]

8 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said:

Wade was a defensive coach and his defense often were lights out  He didn't get the right guys to run the offense and never had a qb of Josh's caliber  A Wade Phillips defense didnt give up leads at end of games often

 

He had a knack for getting the most out of defensive players and adjusting his schemes to fit the talent. I think if he was paired with a good OC and QB he could have done more, but he struggled identifying both of those during his tenure here.

That, and he told Ralph to mind his own business and that was usually a career-limiting move

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by WideNine

[KOKBILLS]

27 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

As a fan, it can be hard to assign blame.  How much of the offense's woes can we put on Beane?  McD?  Dorsey?  The players?   Looking at Dorsey, he didn't create those turnovers.  You've got to blame the players.  Then again, there might be shortcomings on how Dorsey prepares the team that make turnovers more likely.  

 

But if I was McD, I'd probably fire Dorsey, too.  You gotta hold somebody accountable and Dorsey is the offensive orchestra conductor.  His musicians haven't been playing beautiful music lately.

 

I am concerned, though, that McD doesn't seem to have a great relationship with his coordinators.  I'm also not sure why anyone should expect Brady to do better but hopefully he does.  

 

The main problem Dorsey had was the star QB regressing. No matter what anyone says, any stats that can be sighted, that's the way it looks. And that was going to be a death sentence for Ken... Period. It just can't happen at this point because Josh has already shown HOF capabilities. It may very well be all Josh's fault in the end... I don't know... But Josh Allen is going nowhere. And when he looks like he has at times this year, there's no way any OC can survive that for long. 

 

So ongoing is the quest to replace Daboll as the Josh whisperer... So to speak at least...

 

I still think the overall evidence points to this whole thing being more of a McD/Beane (can't get over the hump) problem... But they're not going anywhere... So... 

[BullBuchanan]

26 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Again, he only has like 4 more INT's than Mahomes and 3 more than Burrow during the past 2 seasons coming into this year. And he has never cost us a single playoff game from a turnover with only 4 career turnovers.

 

Add the fumbles.

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

He called a high-low concept where a WR runs an out to the sideline like 15 yards down the field and another WR or TE runs an out 5 yards down the field. 
 

It makes the DB have to choose to cover one of them and Allen is supposed to throw to the other one. They run it like 5 times a game and it has led to a bunch of INTs. I think defenses have figured it out.

DB's have been coached to play the percentages and not to worry about the short route because they understand Josh's tendency is to choose the longer out.  Until he recognizes that and correctly picks the open route, which is mostly the short route open, it will continue.  The other option is ditch the play to eliminate the opportunity to make a bad decision.

[BillsVet]

Just now, SectionC3 said:

It’s self-serving, no doubt.  Makes very little sense after a Monday game in which the offense left the field with a lead and the D and ST blew it.  This is all about McD scapegoating Dorsey.  I don’t see it as Machiavellian though.  I see it as desperate because this season is barely even clinging to the brink and he probably would have had a mutiny on his hands if he didn’t do something. 

 

McD has fired a coordinator after or during the 2021, 2022, and 2023 seasons.  I can't recall in recent years a HC of a very good team firing that many and it is sure to raise ownership's eyebrows.  Firing coordinators is evidence of dysfunction under his management of the team.  

 

They have 7 games now because McD ain't going anywhere during the season save for a catastrophic collapse.  I also think he benefits from TPegs likely not wanting to pay his 2024 and 2025 salaries with all those stadium cost over-runs on his tab now.  

 

[Bob Jones]

3 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Daboll is coming back here to be HC, not OC.  Someone earlier mentioned a McD power play in canning Dorsey.  Josh has a little more leverage than McD, and if this season goes up in flames and Daboll gets canned we’ll see who has the juice at OBD. 

Any owner that would let a player dictate his team’s staffing decisions is weak and pathetic. I don’t see it happening, honestly. You don’t let the residents run the asylum.

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, JimBob2232 said:

he had no choice.  One has to go.  The lower level one went.  Obvious call.  Now the question is whether McDermott goes or if beene/pegula gives another chance.  IMO that depends on if things turn around or if they are still as toxic as they appear.   
 

I feel like we need to clean house and bring in a new staff.  But also - I trust Beane to figure that out.  His loyalty to McDermott might be too much of a bias though.  
 

we’ll see…

 

I mentioned this before but if McDermott does get fired then I hope they keep Beane. We will need a football man to lead the search for the next HC. Terry shouldn't be doing that.

[Old Coot]

Interesting firing given last night's O performance. The O's play was more lack of execution rather than poor playcalling.  maybe what got Dorsey fired was the fact that he didn't go with the run game until the last drive; that and the cumulative poor performances of the O in previous games.

 

Brady will run the same system -- you can't change systems mid-season. Hopefully he will learn from what happened to Dorsey and call better plays.

 

It will be interesting to see if we continue to go shotgun under Brady. Shotgun helps Josh make quicker reads. We'll see if they stay with it or go under center on passing plays.

 

Our running game was surprisingly very effective last night. I don't know how proficient the Broncos are against teh run. I do know that our O line is not good enough to run consistently against the better DL teams.

[hondo in seattle]

2 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Great relationships don't always lead to great results.  A certain friction/tension between higher ups gets more out of people.  Great relationships lead to complacency.  And that is what has happened with our organization.  Good is good enough.  It doesn't have to be great.  If the Bills were shooting for greatness they would have gotten rid of Frazier at the least after 13 seconds.  McDermott is not an innovator.  He thinks smaller is better on defense.  I have news for him playing DB's continuously at LB gets you run over, and your defense out of gas every week at the ends of games like last night, and in the Giants Bucs Pats and Bengals games. 

 

If I am Beane I am distancing myself fast from McDermott.  

 

This sounds like the theme of "Team of Rivals," and I don't agree.  I've been blessed to be part of some very high-performing military and business teams that were characterized by great relationships.  There was no complacency.  

 

Patton once said something to the effect that if ten people are thinking alike, then only nine are thinking.  Disagreement is a necessary part of a leadership team.  But the members of the team can still have great relationships.  

 

Look at Earnest Shackleton's leadership team.  His men described Shackleton like this, "The greatest leader than ever came on God's green earth, bar none..."  "I don't think there's any doubt that we all owe our lives to his leadership...."  "For all the best points of leadership the palm must be given to Shackleton."  There was extraordinarily little "friction/tension" on his leadership team.  Shackleton, in fact, did everything he could to minimize the tension and maximize the harmony.  His leadership team had great relationships and accomplished amazing things together.  

 

 

[34-30]

6 minutes ago, WideNine said:

That pick clearly shook Allen up and was in his head for a while... if he did throw the same kind of pick in the same kind of way in the same kind of situation, I could see why it would be hard to shake that off.

This is the REALLY concerning part, no?  He looks shaken. Your QB can't look that way. His demeanor at the podium..not good. 

[UKBillFan]

9 minutes ago, bigK14094 said:

Interm title, means maybe a new guy.  Maybe Daboll if he gets canned in NY

 

I did wonder if they may have one eye on Daboll should he be sacked by the Giants.

[wppete]

Good move. Can McDermott fire himself also? 

[WideNine]

1 minute ago, BullBuchanan said:

Add the fumbles.

 

I think it is also the kind of INTs we are seeing this year that make folks wonder what is going on.

I get a tipped ball, or everyone covered trying to thread it into a tight window, or 3rd and forever and he chucks it the length of the field and the INT amounts to a punt. But the INTs he is throwing deep in our own zone, to guys who are tightly covered with help underneath when there is no pressure on him and other guys are open are mind boggling.

That is what concerns me, not just a number as that could mean a lot of different things and situations so I don't get too hung up on that.


 

[hondo in seattle]

2 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

McD has fired a coordinator after or during the 2021, 2022, and 2023 seasons.  I can't recall in recent years a HC of a very good team firing that many and it is sure to raise ownership's eyebrows.  Firing coordinators is evidence of dysfunction under his management of the team.  

 

They have 7 games now because McD ain't going anywhere during the season save for a catastrophic collapse.  I also think he benefits from TPegs likely not wanting to pay his 2024 and 2025 salaries with all those stadium cost over-runs on his tab now.  

 

 

Or it means he doesn't hire the right coordinators.  Which I suppose is just a different kind of dysfunction.  

 

Yeah, it's concerning that we can't get and keep the right coordinators.  

[Bruffalo]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

Which ones? I'm genuinely asking.

Cover1 can do a much better job of showing it than I could describe, and I'd encourage you to check them out.

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

Which ones? I'm genuinely asking.

Cover1 can do a much better job of showing it than I could describe, and I'd encourage you to check them out.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

If the giants call the bills up and offer daboll for McDermott, do you do it?

 

Daboll has arguably been a worse hc than McDermott so far 

[ExWNYer]

1 minute ago, wppete said:

Good move. Can McDermott fire himself also? 

 

If so, he'd probably have to wrestle with that decision...

[bills742]

2 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

If the giants call the bills up and offer daboll for McDermott, do you do it?

 

Daboll has arguably been a worse hc than McDermott so far 

Yes

[npeartisgod]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

dorsey was screwed last night by mcchump benching cook.

No. Dorsey was screwed by stupid play calls like ANOTHER 4th and short with JA in shotgun...

[Punching Bag]

Josh should be feeling guilty now.  He pushed for Dorsey but he did not change his game so he could be successful.

[npeartisgod]

2 minutes ago, ExWNYer said:

Can McDermott fire himself also?

Well, he'd have to "process" it for a while first. And then, trust that process.

[UKBillFan]

Just now, Limeaid said:

Josh should be feeling guilty now.  He pushed for Dorsey but he did not change his game so he could be successful.

 

Isn't it up to the OC to help the QB improve his game?

[Allen2Moulds]

21 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

This is second hand from someone on the plane home, and I posted it here earlier.  Apparently it was a wild ride home, with a huge range of emotions from crying to screaming to yelling at coaches to guys punching seats out.  Offense blaming defense, people screaming at each other.  Just bonkers.  That account was in the back of my mind last year, and I wondered how McD could recover from that given that nobody ever really accepted responsibility for that mess.  

 

I’ll add another layer about accountability.  Imagine that, after the 13 second fiasco, you plod through last year and one of your superstars is having off-field drama that culminates in someone scorned dropping a certain bomb to the family the night before a playoff game and a late night three ring circus at home afterwards.  Imagine, too, if that wasn’t dealt with to the satisfaction of another superstar who had his fill of the nonsense and the lack of accountability for said nonsense and it becomes easy to see how the whole “process” thing in the eyes of many is a bit of a sham.  

 

I know people here think Daboll is a lousy head coach, and maybe they’re right.  But that guy gets the vibe around here, the players respect him, and I have long sensed that they feel like the wrong one left after 13 seconds.  He’s about what we need right now in making this a fun place to go to work again.  Because I get the sense that nobody enjoys spending time in the office right now. 

I'm not someone in the know, just a regular longtime fan like most, but this all makes sense to me.  Going into the year, I was not on the fire McDermott train, given everything he has done to help turn this franchise around, but unfortunately feel like the Bucs felt, when they fired Dungy and replaced him with Gruden, to help get them over the top.  That being said, it's easy to fire someone.  Replacing them with a superior coach/leader, is the hard part. Things do seem stale and feel like McDermott has lost the team.  There are also no more assistants left to fire/blame. 

All in all, I don't think you can fire him after 1 bad year, unless you are 100% sure that you can land an upgrade.  and please....no more DC's.  You have to stick with the times and hire an offensive minded coach.   

[HoofHearted]

4 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

Cover1 can do a much better job of showing it than I could describe, and I'd encourage you to check them out.

So that's kind of my point. They haven't been the same concepts. Nor have they all occurred vs the same coverage.

[DrDawkinstein]

16 minutes ago, davefan66 said:

First round pick will be a corner.

 

As it should be. It's absolutely the biggest hole on the roster. Except maybe Safety. But find someone that can pull double duty the first year if need be.

 

We can still take a WR in the 2nd round. Which would still be by far the highest pick we've used on actually drafting a WR (not including the 1st for Diggs).

[npeartisgod]

Just now, Limeaid said:

He pushed for Dorsey but he did not change his game so he could be successful.

Actually, IMHO, it was Dorsey who has SO clearly changed JOSH's game this year. It has been a thing of misery to watch week after week. Josh had fun ONCE last night; when he was allowed to RUN into the end zone. He was happy, and the team was happy...Soooo short lived though...

[Punching Bag]

Just now, UKBillFan said:

 

Isn't it up to the OC to help the QB improve his game?

 

Yes but Josh did not listen to him.  He tried to have a controlled game and Josh continued with risky high yield throws.

 

Reminds me of Brett Farve - gunslinger.

[jletha]

Just now, UKBillFan said:

 

Isn't it up to the OC to help the QB improve his game?

This is something I dont get about fans. Even if we admit that Josh is the primary reasons that things arent working we arent gonna fire Josh! So maybe, just maybe, we can get an OC that works better with Josh. Maybe not but better to try and see then keep trying to jam the same square peg through the same round hole 2 years in a row.

[ExWNYer]

2 minutes ago, npeartisgod said:

Well, he'd have to "process" it for a while first. And then, trust that process.

 

You quoted the wrong person. @wppeteposed that question, not me.

[HoofHearted]

17 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

He called a high-low concept where a WR runs an out to the sideline like 15 yards down the field and another WR or TE runs an out 5 yards down the field. 
 

It makes the DB have to choose to cover one of them and Allen is supposed to throw to the other one. They run it like 5 times a game and it has led to a bunch of INTs. I think defenses have figured it out.

The defense was in Quarters coverage - Allen isn't reading the DB to determine which throw to make on that play. Outs/Comebacks vs. Quarters coverage is the Quarters beater - you can't throw low and inside. That wasn't a scheme/Dorsey issue - it was a Josh issue.

[DapperCam]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

As it should be. It's absolutely the biggest hole on the roster. Except maybe Safety. But find someone that can pull double duty the first year if need be.

 

We can still take a WR in the 2nd round. Which would still be by far the highest pick we've used on actually drafting a WR (not including the 1st for Diggs).

Edge rusher is also a big hole if Miller doesn’t return to form and we elect to not re-sign Epenesa.

 

We have Rousseau, Jonathan, and Miller signed for next year.

[Wayne Arnold]

37 minutes ago, Beast said:

100%
 

Two years ago the special teams coordinator was the scapegoat.

 

Last year, Leslie.

 

This year, Dorsey.

 

McDermott put this staff together. He should be next.

 

Question is - does Beane stay on and is he the one who fires his partner? Or does Pegula fire them both? Does Pegula have the ballz to do that? I'm skeptical.

[DrDawkinstein]

27 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Which ones? I'm genuinely asking.

 

I mean, look at what a joke "mesh" has become even among the Cover1 analysts that it's a huge deal when it actually manages to work (against a crappy Tampa Bay Defense). Yet we still force it. With more horrible results last night.

 

For examples beyond that, you're more qualified to find them than anyone else here so it shouldnt be too hard.

[34-30]

Just now, npeartisgod said:

Actually, IMHO, it was Dorsey who has SO clearly changed JOSH's game this year. It has been a thing of misery to watch week after week. Josh had fun ONCE last night; when he was allowed to RUN into the end zone. He was happy, and the team was happy...Soooo short lived though...

Is this what its about...having fun?  

 

The Bills ran the ball just fine last night without Josh running around. Its not like a lack of a run game was hindering the pass offense.  

[Johnnycage46]

4 minutes ago, npeartisgod said:

Well, he'd have to "process" it for a while first. And then, trust that process.

Don't forget, he'll also need to watch the tape first.

[Big Blitz]

If Brady gets this O to light up the Jets he instantly becomes the hottest OC in the league.

[npeartisgod]

2 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said:

one of your superstars is having off-field drama that culminates in someone scorned dropping a certain bomb to the family the night before a playoff game and a late night three ring circus at home afterwards.

I'll just ask it out loud. Did JA actually get some girl pregnant and his GF found out? Is THAT why that playoff game sucked so BADLY?! I know it was a hot rumor, but has it actually been substantiated?