Some All-22 Observations from Cinci

[Einstein]

This was a very frustrating game to analyze.

1) For those who wanted to keep running and establish "balance". It simply wasn't happening. They could have ran 50 times and we simply wouldn't have scored. Very frustrating run blocking performance for several linemen. Example of this (GIF may take a moment to load):



2) More o-line issues. We are 9 games into the season and still having miscommunication between linemen. Torrence clearly thinks he has help from Morse.



3) Why isn't Josh throwing the ball? Well... to whom? Separation is non-existent on many pays.



4) Torrence got tripped up on the screen play. Had he not been tripped, Cook may have scored on this screen. See the following two photos.





5) No defense is convinced by our WR's pretending to be a screen option on shotgun darts. And it's actively hurting us. Instead of our WR's blocking the CB across from them, they fake a screen and then THAT CB goes and plugs a run whole. Shakir's defender on this play is who makes the tackle, stopping the run for a 2 yard gain.








 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Torrence hasn’t been playing well. Not saying bench the rookie but he’s not improving.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Torrence hasn’t been playing well. Not saying bench the rookie but he’s not improving.

The Bengals ran a similar dual A gap swim later on in the game and Morse picked it up. I'm thinking it was Morse responsibility (though I don't know for sure)

[Scott7975]

good stuff.  We are fine though.  EPA and all that jazz efficiency stuff.

[boyst]

Drop 7 while rushing 4 effectively will always cripple a passing offense 

[Motorin']

18 minutes ago, Einstein said:

This was a very frustrating game to analyze.

1) For those who wanted to keep running and establish "balance". It simply wasn't happening. They could have ran 50 times and we simply wouldn't have scored. Very frustrating run blocking performance for several linemen. Example of this (GIF may take a moment to load):



2) More o-line issues. We are 9 games into the season and still having miscommunication between linemen. Torrence clearly thinks he has help from Morse.



3) Why isn't Josh throwing the ball? Well... to whom? Separation is non-existent on many pays.



4) Torrence got tripped up on the screen play. Had he not been tripped, Cook may have scored on this screen. See the following two photos.





5) No defense is convinced by our WR's pretending to be a screen option on shotgun darts. And it's actively hurting us. Instead of our WR's blocking the CB across from them, they fake a screen and then THAT CB goes and plugs a run whole. Shakir's defender on this play is who makes the tackle, stopping the run for a 2 yard gain.








 

Can you grab the INT and show if Kincaid was as wide open as one of the later replays seems to show?

 

I also saw Diggs wide open on short routes over the middle on 3 different 3rd and short or medium plays. And Josh never looked his way. 

[TheBrownBear]

Thanks for taking the time to do this, Einstein.  My only quibble is the play you used to show a lack of separation, since that was clearly some sort of broken play where two of our receivers tackled each other. 

 

I don't doubt that they are struggling to separate, though.  Diggs is really the only guy who consistently can in this offense.  I have finally come around with the majority of the board and have completely soured on Gabe Davis.  He should be a backup/WR4.  I'd like Shakir to move into the WR2.

[Billever76]

16 minutes ago, boyst said:

Drop 7 while rushing 4 effectively will always cripple a passing offense 

Then why can't we do it?

[jahnyc]

I believe that Torrence was the lowest rated member of the o-line against Cinci (with a very low rating of 50.5 by PFF).  Not sure if he is hitting the rookie wall or something else, but our upgrades at OG have not been meaningful, which may be a part of our inability to have a consistent rushing attack.

[Einstein]

15 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Can you grab the INT and show if Kincaid was as wide open as one of the later replays seems to show?

 

I also saw Diggs wide open on short routes over the middle on 3 different 3rd and short or medium plays. And Josh never looked his way. 

Yes Kincaid is open, but Davis had his guy beat and it would have been a nice pickup.

Davis was Allen's 1st read and he took it.

 

It was just a poor throw.

11 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Thanks for taking the time to do this, Einstein.  My only quibble is the play you used to show a lack of separation

I could post a dozen others. It's just an example to represent the whole.
 

11 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

since that was clearly some sort of broken play where two of our receivers tackled each other. 

This happens fairly often. Not fall down - no - but so tight in spacing that a WR has to slow down or alter their route.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Bills did a good job of ditching the run in this game IMO. 

 

It wasn't going to work. 

 

On point #3 - again - we've kicked it around a lot on here, who else is on the roster that can reliably get open? To this point the Bills have found Shakir, and he's catching the ball thrown to him at 92% rate. So if Diggs, Kincaid and Shakir are staples, that really only leaves me with a few options left that I can think of:

 

1. Flat out take Gabe Davis off the field more and trust that Harty can win out wide. 

 

2. Begin a rotation with Gabe Davis, taking him off and mixing in Harty and Sherfield. 

 

3. Dump consistently to the backs - Cook, Ty Johnson, Murray, and Fournette - Allen has shown he will not do this reliably/methodically. Bills have tried to push this for the past two seasons. 

 

4. Go back to 12 personnel with Kincaid and Morris, but this probably starts eating into Shakir's snaps, and why is that a good thing? 

 

5. Start utilizing 4-wide again and just get some rotations going - moving Diggs around, putting Shakir out wide, then Harty, then Gabe back out wide, splitting Kincaid out wide, or in the slot on a spread look. I don't know that those slot-usuals can play outside, but some 4-wide looks in place of the condensed 3x1 RPO looks might be beneficial. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Bills did a good job of ditching the run in this game IMO. 

 

It wasn't going to work. 

 

On point #3 - again - we've kicked it around a lot on here, who else is on the roster that can reliably get open? To this point the Bills have found Shakir, and he's catching the ball thrown to him at 92% rate. So if Diggs, Kincaid and Shakir are staples, that really only leaves me with a few options left that I can think of:

 

1. Flat out take Gabe Davis off the field more and trust that Harty can win out wide. 

 

2. Begin a rotation with Gabe Davis, taking him off and mixing in Harty and Sherfield. 

 

3. Dump consistently to the backs - Cook, Ty Johnson, Murray, and Fournette - Allen has shown he will not do this reliably/methodically. Bills have tried to push this for the past two seasons. 

 

4. Go back to 12 personnel with Kincaid and Morris, but this probably starts eating into Shakir's snaps, and why is that a good thing? 

 

5. Start utilizing 4-wide again and just get some rotations going - moving Diggs around, putting Shakir out wide, then Harty, then Gabe back out wide, splitting Kincaid out wide, or in the slot on a spread look. I don't know that those slot-usuals can play outside, but some 4-wide looks in place of the condensed 3x1 RPO looks might be beneficial. 

 

Agree here - even if the 3x1 gives you an iso with kincaid... teams often just play the pass.  Our run game hasn't been working out of that formation for weeks now.  

[GoBills808]

2 things stood out to me at first

 

Big one is just how much faster and physical Bengals dline played vs our oline and vice versa

 

Second was a result of that and one of the reasons we ended up ditching the run and the pass game got disjointed- we could not run block effectively vs that front and it affected MOF reads due to their LBs not being moved AT ALL when we went playaction

 

these are stills from deep throw to Harty when the score was still 14-7, right before INT.

 

at snap

 

after playaction from drop

 

 

LBs do not play run keys at all despite being in a 4man front w 6blockers in

 

 

[boyst]

43 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

Then why can't we do it?

we don't have enough capable bodies to do the coverage needed. we are fairly slow and old.

[BBFL]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Torrence hasn’t been playing well. Not saying bench the rookie but he’s not improving.

That’s on Torrence and the coaching staff to rectify that. But as for on the field, a seasoned vet like Morse could make sure he has his assignments correct before the snap if it’s a consistent problem. 
 

On the rest,

I see more often than not on a lot of our passing plays, a clutter or clogged area that isn’t out of design to get picks or rubs. Pretty easy to sit Pat and squat on your assignment. Personnel as well as coaching plays a part in that no doubt. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by BBFL

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

The Bengals ran a similar dual A gap swim later on in the game and Morse picked it up. I'm thinking it was Morse responsibility (though I don't know for sure)

Joe Marino mentioned Torrence had a bad game and had timing issues passing off blocks and just plain got beat a few times. He also said Dawkins had a poor game.

 

I think stunts targeting Torrence and Brown are really working for opposing defenses, so that's something the Bills need to find an answer for.

[Simon]

45 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Yes Kincaid is open, but Davis had his guy beat and it would have been a nice pickup.

Davis was Allen's 1st read and he took it.

 

It was just a poor throw.

 

There's a safety over the top that is just outside the edge of this photo.

It was a stare-down with a bonus double clutch, to a covered receiver in a vertical bracket with no window.

That ball was doomed before it even left his hand.

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

Can you grab the INT and show if Kincaid was as wide open as one of the later replays seems to show?

 

I also saw Diggs wide open on short routes over the middle on 3 different 3rd and short or medium plays. And Josh never looked his way. 

Cook was WIDE OPEN, nobody even paid attention to him on the D. Kincaid was open as well but idk how 17 doesn't hit Cook on that play easily 8-10 yards and easy 1st down. 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

There's a safety over the top that is just outside the edge of this photo.

It was a stare-down with a bonus double clutch, to a covered receiver in a vertical bracket with no window.

That ball was doomed before it even left his hand.

Safety isn't an issue imo he's too deep to effect throw

 

this is at moment of int and hes still 10yards off

 

 

i agree w einstein this was simply a miss

[Simon]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Safety isn't an issue imo he's too deep to effect throw

 

this is at moment of int and hes still 10yards off

 

 

i agree w einstein this was simply a miss

 

The reason he's 10yrds off is that Davis has stopped and is coming back to the ball.

If that ball is thrown to the top of his route instead of well short, the safety is all over it.

You could see it much better in real time, imo.

Personally, I think that with nothing to hold him to the post, the Safety was trying to bait Allen into it.

It was just a terrible decision with poor execution to boot.

[Process]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Safety isn't an issue imo he's too deep to effect throw

 

this is at moment of int and hes still 10yards off

 

 

i agree w einstein this was simply a miss

That is an unbelievably small window that requires a throw with pinpoint accuracy and perfect timing. Almost all risk with no reward.

 

That ball should never be thrown. Bad read by Josh.

[2003Contenders]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Safety isn't an issue imo he's too deep to effect throw

 

this is at moment of int and hes still 10yards off

 

 

i agree w einstein this was simply a miss

It also looks like Diggs is wide open at the bottom of the screen.

[ngbills]

Non All 22 analysis:

 

Opening drive - Diggs 2 targets for 2 catches and 43 yards

Next 4 drives in first half - Diggs 0 targets for 0 catches for 0 yards

 

2nd Half Opening drive - Diggs 3 targets for 3 catches and 26 yards

Next 3 drives - Diggs 2 targets for 1 catch and 17 yards

 

So on the two scripted drive Diggs has 5 targets for 5 catches and 69 yards

On the 7 non-scripted drives its 2 targets for 1 catch and 17 yards.

 

What gives? 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

This was a very frustrating game to analyze.

1) For those who wanted to keep running and establish "balance". It simply wasn't happening. They could have ran 50 times and we simply wouldn't have scored. Very frustrating run blocking performance for several linemen. Example of this (GIF may take a moment to load):



2) More o-line issues. We are 9 games into the season and still having miscommunication between linemen. Torrence clearly thinks he has help from Morse.



3) Why isn't Josh throwing the ball? Well... to whom? Separation is non-existent on many pays.



4) Torrence got tripped up on the screen play. Had he not been tripped, Cook may have scored on this screen. See the following two photos.





5) No defense is convinced by our WR's pretending to be a screen option on shotgun darts. And it's actively hurting us. Instead of our WR's blocking the CB across from them, they fake a screen and then THAT CB goes and plugs a run whole. Shakir's defender on this play is who makes the tackle, stopping the run for a 2 yard gain.








 

Take a minute and check out Joe Marino's Locked on Bills All-22 breakdown on the Bengals game. He isolates the drive-killers on each possession. People often gravitate to a single cause, like the head coach or OC, but the fact is, at least on offense, it's a lack of execution by the players. Be it Josh locking in on one receiver, or Dion Dawkins getting beat like a drum, or Kincaide dropping a pass or fumbling, and yes a bad penalty or non-penalty, all it takes one flub at a critical time to kill a drive. Honestly, it's hard to tell if Dorsey is the problem when the players keep screwing up.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Process said:

That is an unbelievably small window that requires a throw with pinpoint accuracy and perfect timing. Almost all risk with no reward.

 

That ball should never be thrown. Bad read by Josh.

I guess we disagree, we have seen him make this throw before

 

this is when ball leaves his hand, it might be a little tight but it's certainly available

 

[Steptide]

This is why the bills miss that beasley role so bad. It blows my mind they arnt using harty in that way. Also, another prime example of why Allen should run more 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

It also looks like Diggs is wide open at the bottom of the screen.

believe that's SHakir and this imo is half field read

 

he never looks R

[Process]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

I guess we disagree, we have seen him make this throw before

 

this is when ball leaves his hand, it might be a little tight but it's certainly available

 

Yea he underthrew it by a good 5 yards. But again when you consider the position of the underneath guy and safety and the angle of the throw, it's a throw that requires perfect timing and accuracy. There's almost no room for error. No reason throw that IMO when you have 3 other guys open. 

Thanks for the screenshots btw.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Torrence hasn’t been playing well. Not saying bench the rookie but he’s not improving.

 

Seemingly all of our offensive linemen have taken a step back the past couple weeks. They were all playing quite well together, I'm not sure what happened.

 

Here's PFF offensive grades from this game:

 

 

3 of our bottom 4 graded starters were OL in this one.

 

Man am I sick of the same issues still holding this offense back. Poor pass protection. No run game. Zero production from our #2 outside WR.

[GoBills808]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Seemingly all of our offensive linemen have taken a step back the past couple weeks. They were all playing quite well together, I'm not sure what happened.

 

Here's PFF offensive grades from this game:

 

 

3 of our bottom 4 graded starters were OL in this one.

 

Man am I sick of the same issues still holding this offense back. Poor pass protection. No run game. Zero production from our #2 outside WR.

more things change more they stay the same

 

oline is getting bullied on game tape and frankly Cincy defense is playing way above the rim in terms of scheme and physicality

 

they were up for it and we werent

[DrDawkinstein]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

3) Why isn't Josh throwing the ball? Well... to whom? Separation is non-existent on many pays.








 

 

 

Indeed. Dorsey is unable to scheme for separation the way Reid does with any and all of his offensive players.

 

So much to the opposite, in fact, that on this play Dorsey schemed Kincaid and Diggs so close and crossed with each other that they tripped over each other and can be seen laying on the ground at the top of that pic.

 

Now, we all know Diggs and Kincaid can get separation on their own abilities 1:1 in the open field. But tough to do when your OC has you run right at each other from the LOS.

 

Look at this awesome play design and wonder how many WRs would get separation here:

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Man am I sick of the same issues still holding this offense back. Poor pass protection. No run game. Zero production from our #2 outside WR.

 

Those problems span all parts of the offense, and makes it clear to me it isnt a player/talent issue.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Seemingly all of our offensive linemen have taken a step back the past couple weeks. They were all playing quite well together, I'm not sure what happened.

 

Here's PFF offensive grades from this game:

 

 

3 of our bottom 4 graded starters were OL in this one.

 

Man am I sick of the same issues still holding this offense back. Poor pass protection. No run game. Zero production from our #2 outside WR.

That was collectively their worst game as a unit in a while. Out coached upfront. A lot of confusion.

Torrence has been trending down though at least from what I see. You’d like to see the opposite from a rookie. 

 

[Einstein]

23 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

it's hard to tell if Dorsey is the problem when the players keep screwing up.

I would ask - did these same players screw up less under Daboll?

47 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

There's a safety over the top that is just outside the edge of this photo.

It was a stare-down with a bonus double clutch, to a covered receiver in a vertical bracket with no window.

That ball was doomed before it even left his hand.

You're right, there is, but he has little chance at the ball (he is too far away).

I have a hard drive with plenty of this exact throw by Allen throughout the years that made it.

I'm not sure why he is underthrowing these.

[DrDawkinstein]

27 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

it's hard to tell if Dorsey is the problem when the players keep screwing up.

 

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I would ask - did these same players screw up less under Daboll?

 

I would also ask - whose job is it to make sure players are executing?

[Einstein]

39 minutes ago, Process said:

That is an unbelievably small window that requires a throw with pinpoint accuracy

 

In years past, Allen hit this pass in roughly the red circle below. The safety just has no chance to get there. One move and Gabe might be gone. 



But if you want to see a tight window throw...

 

My goodness...


 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Einstein

[HappyDays]

12 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Those problems span all parts of the offense, and makes it clear to me it isnt a player/talent issue.

 

Two years in a row now where the offense started off explosive, at times looking like the best offense in football, and then suddenly dropped off into a more middling area. And we know injuries aren't an excuse. So yeah that does leave me at coaching. Other teams are figuring us out, and we're not reciprocating.

[The Wiz]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

Yes Kincaid is open, but Davis had his guy beat and it would have been a nice pickup.

Davis was Allen's 1st read and he took it.

 

It was just a poor throw.

I could post a dozen others. It's just an example to represent the whole.
 

This happens fairly often. Not fall down - no - but so tight in spacing that a WR has to slow down or alter their route.

I believe on that INT there was another safety over top of Davis as I can only see 10 Bengals in that picture.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Until I see something different, I'd say target Diggs 20 times a game. 

 

I don't know how else this team is going to score again. 

[PromoTheRobot]

33 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I would ask - did these same players screw up less under Daboll?

 

 

Yes but I don't think there is the connection you are implying. Dorsey doesn't coach players. he draws up game plans. Obviously the Bills look like they aren't on the same page right now (see: Davis intl grounding call) But I can't say if that draws a line back to Dorsey.

33 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

I would also ask - whose job is it to make sure players are executing?

Position coaches I would assume.

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Yes but I don't think there is the connection you are implying. Dorsey doesn't coach players. he draws up game plans.

 

I honestly wasn't attempting to make a connection, but I can see how it appears that way. I am just as confused as everyone else as to why these same players (and in many cases upgrades - speaking of the line) have regressed since Daboll left.