Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[newcam2012]

17 minutes ago, Shortchaz said:

No one questions Josh’s ability to throw the football but if you look at how he often delivers the ball it reveals a part of his game that needs to improve. He throws line drive/dart/bullet passes when an earlier throw would allow him to put some air under the ball and be a more receiver-friendly pass. for this to happen josh has to be able to anticipate what’s going to happen. 
 

we all know josh can play a certain style of football and have success, the issue with that style is it’s not sustainable. 
 

I don’t think he’s way off and hopefully we’re just living through some growing pains. 

Six years of growing pains? 

[White Linen]

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

That's his format. I don't know anyone in the business that breaks down play after play for the entire game for fans. At best, analysts pick a couple of plays to illustrate their points. 

 

I think it's fair to say Joe is knowledgeable, very fair, and accurate with his analysis. You are welcome to disagree. As for myself, I find him very credible and listen to him daily. 

 

You really have no evidence he's credible just because he's articulate and "fair". 

 

Gunner Bill is a well respected poster and he believes he's smarter than Allen and wishes he could be in the film room as he's scolded by Joe Brady.  It's getting way out of control here.  

 

As I said, you can film critique every single player.  

[newcam2012]

15 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Are Allen's mechanics being mentioned much? I can't work through 18 pages right now, unfortunately. 

 

I saw his front shoulder flying open on so many throws; many of which sailed. He has a general tendency to throw from an open stance, especially when running the hurry-up and spread. But that's different than what seemed to inform most of his throws that were high and hot. A breakdown in fundamentals. You see it with pitchers all the time.

 

Which Bills QB was it who talked about focusing on "taking a bite out of the hamburger" (in his left hand)? You know, keeping that left shoulder closed as long as possible, and keeping that left hand up around the face. Was it a younger Allen? Or someone from the drought? 

 

Potentially over-rotating/over-throwing to overcompensate for an ailing shoulder?

My eye have not really seen a lot of mechanical issues with Josh. Not my area of expertise though. Allen QBs will miss passes. 

 

My concerns with Josh are more between his ears and his eyes. He seems to be unprepared and almost going though the motions. I see a lack of the " it" factor. His vision certainly lacks at times as noted by others. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by newcam2012

[Shortchaz]

12 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Six years of growing pains? 

I think there’s been a change in the philosophy of the offense this year. 

[Richard Noggin]

17 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

My eye have not really seen a lot of mechanical issues with Josh. Not my area of expertise though. Allen QBs will miss passes. 

 

My concerns with Josh are more between his ears and his eyes. He seems to be unprepared and almost going though the motions. I see a lack of the " it" factor. His vision certainly lacks at times as noted by others. 

 

I'm speaking specifically about this last game, mind you. That left shoulder is really whipping open early when he looks to drive the ball. That pass 37 feet over Gabe Davis' head (that Davis somehow actually could have caught) is just one example. There were at least 3 or 4 others that really took away potential TDs. 

[TheBrownBear]

9 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Okay so Allen is lazy and mentally fragile.  Not that by any objective measure his O line and collection of skill players is worse then just abut any other legit playoff team.  Got it.  And fine I'll buy what you people are selling and whine that Allen is playing poorly this season.  Then explain this:

 

Allen's rank among QB Starters:

 

Yards passing = #6

 

Passing TD's = tied with Mahomes & Tua for #2

 

Total TD's = #1

 

Regular QB Rating = #6

 

QBR = #3

 

If this is Allen with all the "problems" you people are claiming he has then maybe he isn't the problem. 

Yeah, he's clearly a regular Jamarcus Russell!

[SydneyBillsFan]

22 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

This is the first year since his rookie year where he seems to be baffled by the defense’s presnap adjustments and motions, and where he seems to just drift directly into pressure multiple times per game.

 

HE IS NOT PUTTING IN THE WORK

 

Is this the first year he didn't spend time in the summer with Jordan Palmer?

 

Is it possible that he thought  "my training is complete, I can now spend my entire summer playing golf" - because that's what it looks like.

.

[Royale with Cheese]

22 hours ago, Westside said:

You or anyone else in here know how much”film” he watches! Let’s make up stuff to make Allen sound even worse! This fan base doesn’t deserve to win. I’m more disappointed in how the fans turn on players and coaches so fast. Truly remarkable how hateful some people are!

This fan base doesn’t deserve to win because we criticize the team when they aren’t playing to their expectations?  

Is this the level of sensitivity we are at now?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[CoudyBills]

23 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

He didn't like a lot of things (says Morse played much worse than usual, that Torrance was bad, Spencer Brown allowed two big pressures and Gabe Davis also, that James Cook was "a disaster in pass protection,") etc. He had plenty more criticism of others, as well. So he certainly did not blame it all on Josh by any means. But ...

 

"As I watched this offensive tape, it became very clear to me that Josh Allen really struggled in this game. And I know that nobody ever wants to hear that Josh Allen played poorly, and I'm sure that lots of you are going to yell at me for saying that Josh played poorly, but he did.

 

"Could things have been better around him? Absolutely. Could Ken Dorsey have been a little better in this game? Absolutely.

 

"But I thought the top reason for how the offense performed against New England was the play of Josh Allen. 

 

"Let me give you some themes from what I observed, and I think that as more people study the tape, you're going to see a lot of what I'm sharing here being echoed throughout those who watch film. I thought his processing and decision-making was really off in this game. He had some very frustrating turndowns, especially under pressure. And I thought his whole mental approach was very poor with protections and how he set protections, working away from where the protections were set, not necessarily feeling or sensing or seeing or reacting to pressure schemes correctly based on what New England was giving him.

 

"I thought his tempo was poor. He didn't get through progressions with enough urgency, especially when New England either had pressure or had very obvious route combinations leveraged and his eyes needed to be in different places. He was late to process pressure, I mean they're sending extra guys and it's not affecting the way that he's attacking the play. I thought his trigger was incredibly slow. Once again his average time to throw over 3.15 seconds. That's going to put a lot of stress on your offensive line. And I have plenty of criticism for those guys, but I mean Mac Jones got the ball out in 2.2 seconds, literally a full second quicker. The amount of stress that puts on the offensive line compared to what Josh did is really different.

 

"He absolutely had some accuracy lapses, right? The two misfires to Stefon Diggs, the deep shot, then the outbreaking pattern, missed them. Josh has to get back to taking profits and playing smart football. His average depth of target against New England was 10.6.

 

"There were issues with Josh Allen not getting the team out of bad run looks. Another situation where they're trying to run the ball to a side of the formation where there's four Patriots players for two Bills offensive linemen to block; you can't run the play.

 

"Not making correct decisions on run-pass options. I mean, honestly minus the quantity of turnovers, I felt a lot of things about Josh Allen that I did in that Jets game in Week One. Thought he was chasing some plays and just not doing the smart correct thing with any level of consistency that's needed to win a football game.

 

"And I'm not talking about Josh Allen not being Josh Allen. that's not what I'm saying. But within the context of a football game, there are certain times where you just need to take the profit, you need to go to the smart place with the football. And Josh Allen didn't do that.

 

"Now, I'm confident this analysis is going to be met with some resistance, some anger at me for daring to say that Josh Allen played poorly, and not pointing enough fingers at Ken Dorsey or enough fingers at being able to trust the offensive line, or weapons or whatever you want to point at.

 

"I watched that game, I studied it in depth, the biggest problem on the offense was 17. ... Josh Allen is not perfect, he has bad games and this was absolutely one of them. Missed so many opportunities. And he did some good, there's no doubt. I enjoyed the three touchdown drives in the second half. I did a lot of what he did to get the team in scoring position in the first half.

 

"But I'm left thinking a whole lot more about the plays he didn't make, about the plays that were left on the field, about the times he could have done the smart correct thing with the football and just mentally was not sharp in this game: decision-making issues, protection issues, just issues galore.

 

"You need more out of Josh Allen. And I know that's hard to say based on what he's given you.

 

"But when you look at this game, and that's what I'm talking about, this game, this loss to the Patriots, I thought the biggest problem with the offense was the quarterback."

 

...

 

"He refused to throw hot on several occasions during obvious pressure looks. He didn't have the team sliding in the right direction, just too many miscues. He has to manage that better, both the pre-snap and the post-snap part of pressure, and Josh just played poorly."

 

 

Joe had plenty to say about the defense too. As usual, he gets into a ton of detail.

 

 

Anyone who disagrees is just a homer.

[Ga boy]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This fan base doesn’t deserve to win because we criticize a the team when they aren’t playing to their expectations?  

Is this the level of sensitivity we are at now?

Now?  I remember on the radio talk shows with the Coach that when we’d win 17-14, it was like we lost or something.  The Mafia has always been engaged, even when they were just known as fans.

[CincyBillsFan]

9 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Yeah, he's clearly a regular Jamarcus Russell!

That's exactly what these posters seem to be saying in their critiques.

 

[ddaryl]

18 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Why can’t he a Brady with pre-snap reads?  What prevents him from doing so?

 

He isn't. Just like 99% of QB that ever play the game don't have that ability at that level.

You act like anyone on the planet can do anything if they just focus. People have different strengths and different abilities, and some people don't have any. It is what it is.

Josh will never be a presnap quick pass QB anywhere near the levels of Brady or Montana IMO

But give Josh time with superior blocking and he will make teams pay. 

[ndirish1978]

Josh is on the record stating he doesn't like to watch film. The second I heard that this offseason I knew we weren't going far.  He also said he doesn't really like to work out with weights all that much because he didn't at all one offseason and he did better on the conditioning drills. Kid got paid and stopped working.

[SWATeam]

Just now, ndirish1978 said:

Josh is on the record stating he doesn't like to watch film. The second I heard that this offseason I knew we weren't going far.  He also said he doesn't really like to work out with weights all that much because he didn't at all one offseason and he did better on the conditioning drills. Kid got paid and stopped working.

I understand the weights part.  It's like being a pitcher, bulky muscles are not the goal and actually are more of a hinderance.  I believe he does work on his base.

 

The film issue is concerning.  Most of the greats live it and love the grind.

[oldmanfan]

11 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

He isn't. Just like 99% of QB that ever play the game don't have that ability at that level.

You act like anyone on the planet can do anything if they just focus. People have different strengths and different abilities, and some people don't have any. It is what it is.

Josh will never be a presnap quick pass QB anywhere near the levels of Brady or Montana IMO

But give Josh time with superior blocking and he will make teams pay. 

Can he improve on it?  You seriously don't think with study he can't improve?  Come on.  The guy is a great QB, we all know that.  But should he not be expected to work on areas that might be weaker?

[ndirish1978]

Just now, SWATeam said:

I understand the weights part.  It's like being a pitcher, bulky muscles are not the goal and actually are more of a hinderance.  I believe he does work on his base.

 

The film issue is concerning.  Most of the greats live it and love the grind.

 

Maybe he does base work. In that case, I don't think he does himself any favors with how he describes his offseason routine. I'm watching Mahomes in QB on Netflix put his body in crazy training situations to help his muscles perform better on off-platform throws and seeing guys like Peyton stressing how crazy their film viewing habits are and then I'm listening to Josh basically state he uses his offseasons to live like the Dude from the Big Lebowski.

 

[ddaryl]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Can he improve on it?  You seriously don't think with study he can't improve?  Come on.  The guy is a great QB, we all know that.  But should he not be expected to work on areas that might be weaker?

Improve a bit, but he will never excel at it comapred to those who turned that ability into muliple SB appearances and wins

 

Thats my opinion and its why I feel Dorsey is the wtong OC for a QB like Josh

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

It's absurd to say Allen doesn't see the open receivers.  His stats would indicate otherwise or are you saying that all those completions over the last three and a half seasons have been to tightly covered players while he ignores the open ones?

 

Since 2020 Allen has been a top 3 QB in production, including this season.  If pointing this obvious stat out makes me a member of the Josh Allen cult please pass me the cool aid.

 

Wellllll.......I am the one who suggested that Singletary and McKenzie should be equipped with the sort of tall orange fiberglass poles you find affixed to Syracuse fire hydrants in winter.  Yes, sometimes Josh does throw to tightly covered players he trusts, while ignoring open ones he trusts less.

 

I wouldn't want to say that Josh "doesn't see" open receivers, but I think it's pretty inarguable that Josh will pass up open receivers who are short of the sticks in favor of taking a deep shot, sometimes to a pretty well covered receiver downfield.  Sometimes, because that tendency is on film, to a well covered receiver with a DB in position to jump the route and pick him.  He's aggressive, and he has that "arm arrogance".  Sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

It's also a  fact that Josh will tend to respond to pressure by extending the play with his legs, instead of getting the ball out quickly to an underneath option with so much green in front of him they could plant a christmas tree farm.

 

It's a blessing and a curse.  Yes, Josh was 7th in the league in passing yards and Y/A last season, which is top.  Is that good enough?  Mahomes was #1. Josh was also #3 in INT last season.  Is that good enough?  Maybe if we want to win a championship, especially with a depleted defense, we need Josh to "level up".  Which he has inarguably demonstrated HE  CAN DO.

 

I'm having trouble finding that "top 3 in production" stat for last year and this - can you help me?

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Beck Water

[oldmanfan]

19 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

Improve a bit, but he will never excel at it comapred to those who turned that ability into muliple SB appearances and wins

 

Thats my opinion and its why I feel Dorsey is the wtong OC for a QB like Josh

The OC is wrong because he expects the QB to read coverages.  OK.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I'm speaking specifically about this last game, mind you. That left shoulder is really whipping open early when he looks to drive the ball. That pass 37 feet over Gabe Davis' head (that Davis somehow actually could have caught) is just one example. There were at least 3 or 4 others that really took away potential TDs. 

 

He's got a sprained shoulder.  A sprain in his non-throwing shoulder caused his completion % to dip for 4 games in 2020.  There's every reason to think it's impacting him and will for the next 3-4 weeks.  In 2020, Daboll had a game or two where he strongly limited passing attempts, and we just ran ran ran. 

 

Maybe we need that, instead of 41 pass attempts to 24 rushes.

[ddaryl]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

The OC is wrong because he expects the QB to read coverages.  OK.

 

 

Dorsey is not the right OC for a QB like Josh IMO. Yes he expects it but is it happening ?

 

I honestly gave my opinion and that is not going to change unless some how it magically fixes itself, but then we will see lots of changes into how we gameplan and scheme which backs my point. Josh can read D's just not at the highest level of other HoF QBs who were masters at the pre-snap read and Dorsey needs to do something differently. Josh does his best when he is allowed to let plays develope. Our OL / pass blocking is an issue which keeps Josh from being Josh. The quick passing game the Bills try to run just does not produce consistent results

When Josh is tasked to make the quick throw we have seen him muscling the ball between 3 defenders many times. Pre snap read should be able to find an open receiver with more space. 

 

[Beck Water]

On 10/24/2023 at 6:54 AM, HardyBoy said:

 

Have they started getting plays in later in the play clock from what you have seen, after the 15 second helmet cutoff?

 

Someone commented on this elsewhere - that it seemed as though the plays were getting in late and on one play, Josh was gesturing as though he hadn't gotten the play right before the cutoff.

[oldmanfan]

36 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

Dorsey is not the right OC for a QB like Josh IMO. Yes he expects it but is it happening ?

 

I honestly gave my opinion and that is not going to change unless some how it magically fixes itself, but then we will see lots of changes into how we gameplan and scheme which backs my point. Josh can read D's just not at the highest level of other HoF QBs who were masters at the pre-snap read and Dorsey needs to do something differently. Josh does his best when he is allowed to let plays develope. Our OL / pass blocking is an issue which keeps Josh from being Josh. The quick passing game the Bills try to run just does not produce consistent results

When Josh is tasked to make the quick throw we have seen him muscling the ball between 3 defenders many times. Pre snap read should be able to find an open receiver with more space. 

 

What type of OC does he need then?  

[White Linen]

15 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

My eye have not really seen a lot of mechanical issues with Josh. Not my area of expertise though. Allen QBs will miss passes. 

 

My concerns with Josh are more between his ears and his eyes. He seems to be unprepared and almost going though the motions. I see a lack of the " it" factor. His vision certainly lacks at times as noted by others. 

 

To believe you have this kind of ability is ridiculous.  

[Mango]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The OC is wrong because he expects the QB to read coverages.  OK.

I am in the minority here, but in general I’ve liked Dorsey this year. 
 

2 things can be true at the same time. KD is going to be a pretty decent OC in this league and KD might not be the right OC for the Bills right now. 

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

He's got a sprained shoulder.  A sprain in his non-throwing shoulder caused his completion % to dip for 4 games in 2020.  There's every reason to think it's impacting him and will for the next 3-4 weeks.  In 2020, Daboll had a game or two where he strongly limited passing attempts, and we just ran ran ran. 

 

Maybe we need that, instead of 41 pass attempts to 24 rushes.

One thing I’m a bit nervous about going forward is that Josh has had 3 injuries to his throwing arm in 3 different years. That’s a lot for a guy with only 6 NFL seasons. 
 

 

[Scott7975]

Yep Josh had a poor game. The entire team also had a poor game. Josh has regressed since Dorsey took over. The rest of the offense is talent light. Josh is thinking too much instead of just playing football. The coaches are in his head. That’s why the processing is slower this year. Too worried about not running. Too worried about turning the ball over. Too worried his guys aren’t going to make the play. Too worried his oline won’t hold. 
 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

6 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Someone commented on this elsewhere - that it seemed as though the plays were getting in late and on one play, Josh was gesturing as though he hadn't gotten the play right before the cutoff.

Diggs hinted at this as well.  The comment was along the lines that there was to much substitution going on and it was causing them to get to the LOS late. The announcers also mentioned that the Bills were not snapping the ball until a second was left. So how the hell is Allen supposed to effectively audible and set protection if he only has a few seconds to do it and he's trying to avoid using a TO or getting a delay of game penalty?

 

I wonder if Belicheat and his coaches noticed this on film and employed the looks they did knowing that Allen would not have time to change the play/set the right protections?  We can trash NE all we want but Bill is still the greatest defensive mind in the NFL.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Wellllll.......I am the one who suggested that Singletary and McKenzie should be equipped with the sort of tall orange fiberglass poles you find affixed to Syracuse fire hydrants in winter.  Yes, sometimes Josh does throw to tightly covered players he trusts, while ignoring open ones he trusts less.

 

I wouldn't want to say that Josh "doesn't see" open receivers, but I think it's pretty inarguable that Josh will pass up open receivers who are short of the sticks in favor of taking a deep shot, sometimes to a pretty well covered receiver downfield.  Sometimes, because that tendency is on film, to a well covered receiver with a DB in position to jump the route and pick him.  He's aggressive, and he has that "arm arrogance".  Sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

It's also a  fact that Josh will tend to respond to pressure by extending the play with his legs, instead of getting the ball out quickly to an underneath option with so much green in front of him they could plant a christmas tree farm.

 

It's a blessing and a curse.  Yes, Josh was 7th in the league in passing yards and Y/A last season, which is top.  Is that good enough?  Mahomes was #1. Josh was also #3 in INT last season.  Is that good enough?  Maybe if we want to win a championship, especially with a depleted defense, we need Josh to "level up".  Which he has inarguably demonstrated HE  CAN DO.

 

I'm having trouble finding that "top 3 in production" stat for last year and this - can you help me?

 

 

I consider total TD's and Total yards to be a great indication of production.  This season he is number one on total TD's and I believe over the last 3 seasons he is also #1.

 

 

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Yep Josh had a poor game. The entire team also had a poor game. Josh has regressed since Dorsey took over. The rest of the offense is talent light. Josh is thinking too much instead of just playing football. The coaches are in his head. That’s why the processing is slower this year. Too worried about not running. Too worried about turning the ball over. Too worried his guys aren’t going to make the play. Too worried his oline won’t hold. 
 

 

No, Allen had a poor first half and an excellent 2nd half. That would tell me he had a solid but not great game overall.  Allen led the Bills back from a 2 score deficit in the 4th quarter to take a 3 point lead with less then 2 minutes left only to see our D give up a long TD drive and basically win the game on a walk off TD.

 

 

[Toyo321]

On 10/24/2023 at 7:43 AM, Dopey said:

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

I all the games he has played poorly in,  it has come down to the same three problem areas every single time.

 

1) When he is under pressure he is forced to rush his delivery of the ball he constantly missed the target, it's either over thrown or it is missed and the receiver cant even make an attempt on the ball.  It happened in the Pat's game at least 8 times.

 

2) He is not a good QB when it comes to making the best hot read option and who should get the ball when they are open.  He seriously has an issue reading who is the open receiver on a blitz or a all out breakdown from his OL and he takes off out of the pocket.  He is not escaping and concentrating on making a good throw.   He also did this in the Pat's game.  He made throws that were to receivers that were covered and never should have been targeted.  He is winging the ball like a he is playing on a high school playground with improper mechanic's and bad throwing technique.

 

3) He constantly throws balls to his receivers that are in a less than ideal position for the receiver to make a routine catch attempt,  and the defender knocks the ball down or forces a incompletion.   Many of the Bills receiver have to completely re-adjust their body position to try and make the catch.  The QB should put the ball in the best possible location for the receiver to make the attempted catch.  I know it's impossible to do this all the time but Josh as of late is sorely lacking in this area.

 

Rodgers, Mahomes, Burrow, Hurts and even Tua all have the uncanny ability to put the ball in the absolute perfect spot for the receiver to catch the ball & get YAC.  This is something that the Bills do not accel at.  We can criticize any player when they have a bad game, but when you start making the same old mistakes year after year,  Houston we have a problem. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Toyo321

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I consider total TD's and Total yards to be a great indication of production.  This season he is number one on total TD's and I believe over the last 3 seasons he is also #1.

 

Ah, OK - but one needs to somehow take turnovers for which he's responsible and yards lost to sacks into account somehow.

[QLBillsFan]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:46 AM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

Yeah because 1 Williams has shown tremendous maturity ( F Utah nails) .. and 2 his “camp”has somehow decided he’s a generational talent who at the same time is not really demonstrating it on the field 🤷🏻‍♂️

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 10/24/2023 at 8:33 AM, Billsfan1972 said:

Played lousy, put up 25 points (missed FG too) and dropped fourth down pass.

 

Oh and he's to blame for the Pats last drive too?

 

Maybe not his greatest game, but more then enough to win. 

 

Remember those saying "Just Win Baby"😉

McDs overpaid defense came up empty handed like always 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

10 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Yep Josh had a poor game. The entire team also had a poor game. Josh has regressed since Dorsey took over. The rest of the offense is talent light. Josh is thinking too much instead of just playing football. The coaches are in his head. That’s why the processing is slower this year. Too worried about not running. Too worried about turning the ball over. Too worried his guys aren’t going to make the play. Too worried his oline won’t hold. 
 

 

I don’t think he’s regressed I think he’s just having more games where he and the oline aren’t helpin eachother out.  He had some absolute stinkers in the Daboll days when that was the case as well ala the 6-9 loss to the jags.  Daboll got out when stuff got really hairy in the trenches, he missed the year of saffold and brown playing like garbage at the same time lol. And this year it looks like morse is cooked and Dawkins has taken a step or two back from the Daboll days.  
 

Josh is def gonna have to find ways to improve for sure but he was just as bad if not worse under these conditions in previous years so I wouldn’t say he’s trending downwards 

 

a lot of offenses have been struggling this season but with the great teams which I am sure we were one of pre all those defensive injuries, the defense bails the offense out when needed 

 

5 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Ah, OK - but one needs to somehow take turnovers for which he's responsible and yards lost to sacks into account somehow.

To go further than that, the actual situation of the interception matters a lot too.  A 60 yard bomb on third down that goes for a pick really doesn’t hurt strategically at all and is way more benign than throwing a pick on your own side of the field

 

I think about half of his turnovers have not been very impactful 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

53 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

McDs overpaid defense came up empty handed like always 

They’re really 0-3 getting late game stops the last 3 weeks but got bailed out by the refs against the giants. It’s getting a little ridiculous like I know there’s injuries but you can’t get one of those stops? I think that’s a pretty low bar 

 

only silver lining is we’ve looked pretty decent against the run even missing Ed/Daquan 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Nelius]

The old in between the ears and eyes argument. Something we can all agree on!

 

Josh is doing old people maturity stuff and people think he's a headcase. He'll be alright.

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I don’t think he’s regressed I think he’s just having more games where he and the oline aren’t helpin eachother out.  He had some absolute stinkers in the Daboll days when that was the case as well ala the 6-9 loss to the jags.  Daboll got out when stuff got really hairy in the trenches, he missed the year of saffold and brown playing like garbage at the same time lol. And this year it looks like morse is cooked and Dawkins has taken a step or two back from the Daboll days.  
 

Josh is def gonna have to find ways to improve for sure but he was just as bad if not worse under these conditions in previous years so I wouldn’t say he’s trending downwards 

 

a lot of offenses have been struggling this season but with the great teams which I am sure we were one of pre all those defensive injuries, the defense bails the offense out when needed 

 

To go further than that, the actual situation of the interception matters a lot too.  A 60 yard bomb on third down that goes for a pick really doesn’t hurt strategically at all and is way more benign than throwing a pick on your own side of the field

 

I think about half of his turnovers have not been very impactful 

 

Sorry, I disagree.  Josh has had a bad oline most of his career.  He just use to escape it better.  This year his throws on the run are terrible compared to years past.  He is not making those throws much.  He is not picking up those third and forevers as much.  He is not picking up first downs with his feet much when the play breaks down and he has daylight in front of him.  Not even trying to.  He is also very timid in his throws.  Not taking them.  His balls are not quite the rockets we are used to seeing either.  The coaches have his head all messed up.  That to me is regression.  I don't care what the stats say.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

For the epa guys...

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

12 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Ah, OK - but one needs to somehow take turnovers for which he's responsible and yards lost to sacks into account somehow.

How damaging have Allen's TO's been this season?  Unlike last year Allen is not turning the ball over in the Red Zone and squandering points.  Nor is Allen turning the ball over in the Bills Red Zone giving away points.  Most of his TO's have been around midfield or effectively "punts".

 

Allen has better then a 2 to 1 TD to TO ratio which is good.  And was Allen responsible for that fumble at the end of the NE game? That counted as a "TO"?  Or what about the INT on what should have been a long completion to Diggs against the Jags?

 

Bottom line is that by any standards Allen has been a remarkably productive QB this season as well as the previous 3 seasons.  And this is in spite of his supposedly not being able to read defenses, see the field, abandoning the pocket to soon and being inaccurate. 

 

BTW, I agree that Allen could be even better in these things but he is already wildly productive so "fixing" the offense would more realistically involve other things, like adding play makers & fixing the O line, then squeezing every ounce of elite out of Allen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

For what it's worth:

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

For the epa guys...

 

 

So what the explanation?  The defenses the Bills faced in their first 4 games were a lot better then the D's they faced the last 3 games.  Maybe we've been overthinking all of this and the reason for the decline is really this simple:  A significant deterioration in the O line's play; the London effect; and Allen's sore shoulder.