Hypothetically… Brian Daboll gets the boot….

[Airseven]

There’s been a clear drop-off from Daboll to Dorsey. He was creative. It didn’t always work, but I’d take it again at this point.

[transplantbillsfan]

Listened to Joe Marino's podcast yesterday and he posed a pretty interesting perspective on the Daboll thing.

 

The narrative is that Brian Daboll made Josh Allen.  Marino posits that maybe it's the other way around and it's Josh Allen who made Daboll.  Part of the argument is the relatively steady offensive production in being one of the top NFL offenses even after Daboll left and Daboll's Giants being one of the bottom half NFL offenses.

 

I think it's a bit of an oversimplification, but I also think the folks (Colin Cowherd) who say Brian Daboll was the brilliant coordinator who reined in Josh Allen is an oversimplification.  And maybe it's absolutely false, considering the amount of time Josh spent with Jordan Palmer working on his game for so many offseasons.

[Gregg]

The Giants are in a must win game this Monday vs Seattle. After that they play at Miami and at Buffalo. They fall to 1-3 that could quickly go to 1-5. Have to think they will be huge underdogs vs the Fins and Bills.

[Mango]

I am rooting for Dorsey to succeed. I think he is growing. To me Daboll and Dorsey are two sides of the same coin. Right now I will take the guy who is still flexible and growing. 

That said, if the Bills are in the market for a new OC I would keep an eye on the McVay situation in LA over the next season or two. Sure they won a SB. Yes they mortgaged their future to do it. But I think fans are growing sour. 

[SectionC3]

14 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Listened to Joe Marino's podcast yesterday and he posed a pretty interesting perspective on the Daboll thing.

 

The narrative is that Brian Daboll made Josh Allen.  Marino posits that maybe it's the other way around and it's Josh Allen who made Daboll.  Part of the argument is the relatively steady offensive production in being one of the top NFL offenses even after Daboll left and Daboll's Giants being one of the bottom half NFL offenses.

 

I think it's a bit of an oversimplification, but I also think the folks (Colin Cowherd) who say Brian Daboll was the brilliant coordinator who reined in Josh Allen is an oversimplification.  And maybe it's absolutely false, considering the amount of time Josh spent with Jordan Palmer working on his game for so many offseasons.

I think they made each other.  Daboll put Josh in a position to succeed.  Josh bailed Daboll out here and there by pulling something shiny out of his posterior.  

 

As far as Daboll goes, I’m pulling for him.  All the way.  He’s one of us.  But that comment from Mara over the winter about not going from hero to zero (I’m paraphrasing) and enjoying the Rangers games a little too much (another paraphrase) perked my ears.  I think he gets another year even if this year is a disaster, in part because he’s an excellent coach and in part because the Giants probably don’t want to cycle through coaches every two years.  But . . . Stranger things have happened. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by SectionC3

[GoBills808]

Just keep living my life 

[gonzo1105]

15 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Listened to Joe Marino's podcast yesterday and he posed a pretty interesting perspective on the Daboll thing.

 

The narrative is that Brian Daboll made Josh Allen.  Marino posits that maybe it's the other way around and it's Josh Allen who made Daboll.  Part of the argument is the relatively steady offensive production in being one of the top NFL offenses even after Daboll left and Daboll's Giants being one of the bottom half NFL offenses.

 

I think it's a bit of an oversimplification, but I also think the folks (Colin Cowherd) who say Brian Daboll was the brilliant coordinator who reined in Josh Allen is an oversimplification.  And maybe it's absolutely false, considering the amount of time Josh spent with Jordan Palmer working on his game for so many offseasons.

 

I believe 95% of the time, Quarterbacks make the coordinator/head coach and not the other way around. There are examples of Head Coaches who had mediocre play get their teams deep in the playoffs and/or Super Bowls but usually if you have mediocre QB play you better have absolutely dominate defense. 

 

Just look at Adam Gase(Peyton Manning), Josh McDaniel's(Tom Brady), Nathaniel Hackett(Aaron Rodgers) as recent examples of guys who's careers and reps were made off of QB's who could have me as their coach and succeed. 

 

Josh Allen is going to succeed at a high level no matter who the coordinator is. The only example of recent successes of guys who look better than they are due to their coach is the team we are playing this week. 

[Mango]

3 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

I think they made each other.  Daboll put Josh in a position to succeed.  Josh bailed Daboll out here and there by pulling something shiny out of his posterior.  

 

As far as Daboll goes, I’m pulling for him.  All the way.  He’s one of us.  But that comment from Mara over the winter about not going from hero to zero (I’m paraphrasing) and enjoying the Rangers games a little too much (another paraphrase) perked my ears.  I think he gets another year even if this year is a disaster, in part because he’s an excellent coach and in part because the Giants probably don’t want to cycle through coaches every two years.  But . . . Stranger things have happened. 

 

I am sorry, people want to bring in this guy who traded a Sabres jersey for a Rangers vest back into our organization? 

I don't think so. Have some self respect my guy. We have a QB put hot sauce and blue cheese in his Pepsi, and some "fans" want to pair him with a guy who turned his back on his hometown hockey team.

Who is the OC for Canisius HS. Go get that guy. 

 

 

[somnus00]

On 9/25/2023 at 4:54 PM, JayBaller10 said:

All I know is McD called McDaniel’s scheme “revolutionary” in the presser today. He’s scheming all sorts of creative ways to get guys the ball, a lot of misdirection, sleight of hand, magical stuff. No one is calling the Bills offense revolutionary or innovative. I think they could be so much more and I’m not a Dorsey hater. BUT it is extremely tough finding that guy who is a schematic genius. Panthers thought Joe Brady was one, now he’s in Buffalo as a QB’s coach after his failure.

Agreed. Dorsey is fine. A competent coordinator; one whom no one will confuse for an innovative OC. But how many innovators are out there? Reid, McDaniel, Shanahan? The last 2 are stacked elite playmakers as chess pieces. Maybe add Siriani to this short list.

 

Point being, which creative offensive mind do we hypothetically turn to with Dorsey gone. Believe me, I'd love one. This isn't a post praising Dorsey.

[theRalph]

SERIOUSLY?????

Daboll's offenses pre-Josh ranked 32, 29, 22 and 24.

Daboll's offense with Josh ranked 30, 24, 2 and 5

Daboll's offense post-Josh ranked 18 and 28 (so far in 2023)

 

Looks more like Josh made Daboll than the other way around. And unless Daniel Jones starts to look like Allen, it'll prob stay that way.

[transplantbillsfan]

9 minutes ago, theRalph said:

SERIOUSLY?????

Daboll's offenses pre-Josh ranked 32, 29, 22 and 24.

Daboll's offense with Josh ranked 30, 24, 2 and 5

Daboll's offense post-Josh ranked 18 and 28 (so far in 2023)

 

Looks more like Josh made Daboll than the other way around. And unless Daniel Jones starts to look like Allen, it'll prob stay that way.

 

Almost verbatim what Joe Marino said on yesterday's Locked On Podcast

[theRalph]

16 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Almost verbatim what Joe Marino said on yesterday's Locked On Podcast

Yes. And had the OP also watched it, we wouldn't be dealing with thread anyway.

[Mango]

[gonzo1105]

Quarterbacks almost always make the coach. If Dick Jauron, Gregg Williams, Mike Mularky, or Doug Marrone had Josh Allen their tenures would have been much longer. 
 

Daboll is going to get fired because he couldn’t find his Josh Allen 

[Matt_In_NH]

16, 6, 15, 10 are scores the Bills had in Dabol's last year.....all anyone remembers is 13 the seconds game.  There were constant threads about "fire Dabol" before 13 seconds...just like all the talk on Dorsey.  Their output is actually similar from the 40000 foot view.   Personally, I see an offense that is evolving into something better it has ever been the last three weeks.  I think if Dorsey gets a HC job and Dabol is looking for work you consider it but only in that scenario.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

If Daboll had serious elbow injury josh/2022 bills oline his offense would’ve been considerably worse than dorsey’s imo. 

 

I think Daboll is going to go down as one of the more overrated head coaching candidates in recent history. That first year is gonna be his pinnacle 

 

McDaniel is bordering on overrated for me too but that’s more of a ‘he’s very good but people are saying he’s some kind of genius’ situation.  They just don’t beat playoff caliber opponents but his track star team is well suited to blowing out bottom feeders.  He’s now 2-6 in the regular season against playoff teams(assuming the bills make it this year) and those two wins were flukey, very narrow wins over the ravens and bills who were decimated by injuries. The bills outgained them by like double the yards in that loss despite being down to backups or the backups of backups at nearly every position 

I don’t think McDaniel should be crowned for scoring a bunch of points against horrible teams because in the grand scheme of things your performance against the good teams is really all that matters especially when you’re all in like the dolphins front office is.  They are in cap hell the next few years 

He deserves a lot of credit for designing a successful offense with a bad offensive line built around a qb that can’t use the whole field or do much of anything when the pocket is collapsing but at some point when do you start blaming the OC/head coach when tua doesn’t get better at those things.  If his first read isn’t open within a second or two of the snap the chances the play will be successful drops to pretty much 0.  Tua hasn’t improved at all under McDaniel the system is just really successful at masking his issues against bad/mediocre defenses 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[May Day 10]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:04 PM, Mango said:

 

 

 

 

Is that a Rangers-branded life jacket?

[JGMcD2]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:55 PM, Mango said:

I am rooting for Dorsey to succeed. I think he is growing. To me Daboll and Dorsey are two sides of the same coin. Right now I will take the guy who is still flexible and growing. 

That said, if the Bills are in the market for a new OC I would keep an eye on the McVay situation in LA over the next season or two. Sure they won a SB. Yes they mortgaged their future to do it. But I think fans are growing sour. 

Are you implying we could land Sean McVay as our OC? 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

31 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

Quarterbacks almost always make the coach. If Dick Jauron, Gregg Williams, Mike Mularky, or Doug Marrone had Josh Allen their tenures would have been much longer. 
 

Daboll is going to get fired because he couldn’t find his Josh Allen 

Jauron would still be trying to figure Allen out.  Williams wouldn't be impressed.  So unimpressed that he would be leaving rubber mats all over, and sneaking up behind Allen with an air horn.  Marrone would be similarly apathetic about Allen's abilities.  Mularkey would have just suited up and assigned himself to the practice squad as TE. 😁

Edited October 3, 2023 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[Mango]

31 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

Quarterbacks almost always make the coach. If Dick Jauron, Gregg Williams, Mike Mularky, or Doug Marrone had Josh Allen their tenures would have been much longer. 
 

Daboll is going to get fired because he couldn’t find his Josh Allen 

 

If Gailey landed Cam Newton he would have been our coach for a while, and dare I say would have ended the drought earlier. 

No complaints, we better off with McD and Josh. You can't change one thing without changing everything afterwards. 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'll take Ruxin, I mean Mike McDaniel!

[DapperCam]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:04 PM, Mango said:

 

I am sorry, people want to bring in this guy who traded a Sabres jersey for a Rangers vest back into our organization? 

I don't think so. Have some self respect my guy. We have a QB put hot sauce and blue cheese in his Pepsi, and some "fans" want to pair him with a guy who turned his back on his hometown hockey team.

Who is the OC for Canisius HS. Go get that guy. 

 

 

This is unforgivable from a WNY native. He didn’t have to put on that Rangers vest.

[Gregg]

Just now, DapperCam said:

This is unforgivable from a WNY native. He didn’t have to put on that Rangers vest.

 

At least it wasn't a Leafs vest. That is public enemy #1 in Sabres land.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:43 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

Listened to Joe Marino's podcast yesterday and he posed a pretty interesting perspective on the Daboll thing.

 

The narrative is that Brian Daboll made Josh Allen.  Marino posits that maybe it's the other way around and it's Josh Allen who made Daboll.  Part of the argument is the relatively steady offensive production in being one of the top NFL offenses even after Daboll left and Daboll's Giants being one of the bottom half NFL offenses.

 

I think it's a bit of an oversimplification, but I also think the folks (Colin Cowherd) who say Brian Daboll was the brilliant coordinator who reined in Josh Allen is an oversimplification.  And maybe it's absolutely false, considering the amount of time Josh spent with Jordan Palmer working on his game for so many offseasons.

Watching last night and my observations:

 

Still can't draw up screens and reverses, the dline just teeing off on them

doesn't use motion well to create space

gets away from the run game

WR's either are small and quick, or big and slow

Constantly stuck in 3rd and long

[Brian Higgins hair]

My question? We’ll soon see if Dorsey can keep “good Josh” stable and consistent, and not let Wyoming Josh re-appear at the worst times. 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Are you implying we could land Sean McVay as our OC? 

 

it is just message board fodder. My point is that if we are talking about going after fired head coaches I would much prefer a guy like McVay who has been apart of a lot of good offenses but failed with some of the HC management over a guy who has like 8 years of bottom 5 offenses in the NFL and 2-3 good years with Josh. 

In reality if LAR moved on from McVay I would guess he gets another HC gig. But I do think when you have a guy like Josh and a defensive HC, Buffalo becomes a possible landing spot for FA HC to reset for a couple of seasons before their next HC position. So I guess there could be a possibility however unlikely. 

2 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

Watching last night and my observations:

 

Still can't draw up screens and reverses, the dline just teeing off on them

doesn't use motion well to create space

gets away from the run game

WR's either are small and quick, or big and slow

Constantly stuck in 3rd and long

 

The Manningcast rolled their eyes when Jones got swallowed up by the DL and every WR had their backs turned running 3 x 10 yard curl routes. 

Jones isn't great, but he got no favors last night. If the Giants move on I would be happy to have him as a back up for a year or two to "get right". 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:58 PM, Airseven said:

There’s been a clear drop-off from Daboll to Dorsey. He was creative. It didn’t always work, but I’d take it again at this point.

 

My issue is that Daboll's offense tends to come off really soft.  They never run the ball well, get away from it, and the oline then is on their heels all game.  

 

Dorsey fell into a lot of the same traps last year, but they came out this season wanting to play a more physical brand of football.  It probably won't break any records for yards, but puts them in a lot more makeable 3rd downs, gives you options in the red zone, and can help limit turnovers.  Buffalo was 31st in turnovers offensively last season, which hurts some of the impact of the defenses ability to get takeaways.  

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

it is just message board fodder. My point is that if we are talking about going after fired head coaches I would much prefer a guy like McVay who has been apart of a lot of good offenses but failed with some of the HC management over a guy who has like 8 years of bottom 5 offenses in the NFL and 2-3 good years with Josh. 

In reality if LAR moved on from McVay I would guess he gets another HC gig. But I do think when you have a guy like Josh and a defensive HC, Buffalo becomes a possible landing spot for FA HC to reset for a couple of seasons before their next HC position. So I guess there could be a possibility however unlikely. 

 

The Manningcast rolled their eyes when Jones got swallowed up by the DL and every WR had their backs turned running 3 x 10 yard curl routes. 

Jones isn't great, but he got no favors last night. If the Giants move on I would be happy to have him as a back up for a year or two to "get right". 

 

They want to make him Josh Allen and its just not there, he doesn't have it between the ears.  When he gets out of the pocket it just seems like run is first and pass is second.  He made a few plays out there but half the time he throws out of structure im just expecting it to fall incomplete or out of bounds - so you just end up wanting him to run.  He's athletic and a decent runner but if that's the best attribute in his game he should be running like a 4.4 or something.  

[SoTier]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:58 PM, Airseven said:

There’s been a clear drop-off from Daboll to Dorsey. He was creative. It didn’t always work, but I’d take it again at this point.

 

   Such an insightful observation!  Dorsey was certainly lacking in creativity against the Fishies.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Jauron would still be trying to figure Allen out.  Williams wouldn't be impressed.  So unimpressed that he would be leaving rubber mats all over, and sneaking up behind Allen with an air horn.  Marrone would be similarly apathetic about Allen's abilities.  Mularkey would have just suited up and assigned himself to the practice squad as TE. 😁

 

You are being much too kind to Dick Jauron.  He would have benched Allen for a Tentative Trent Edwards clone because Allen wants to win rather than being satisfied with not losing by too much.

[Bookie Man]

I remember being infuriated with Daboll on many Sundays. He would completely abandon the run. Example jags 9-6 game. Our OL was banged up and jags had a very good pass rush. What does he do? Proceeds to call almost 50 pass plays. Josh was under heat from start to finish. He was sacked 4 times and had 3 TO's. That game was 100% on him. I always said Josh would be undefendable once two things happened. He learned to take easy stuff that defenses give to him. And a complimentary running game. Here we are. Dorsey > Dabes. 

[SCBills]

Giants fire Brian Daboll and hire Ken Dorsey is a fun nightmare to entertain. 

[buffaloboyinATL]

I would love to have Daboll back, but honestly, I think Dorsey is just starting to hit his stride.  If your hypothetical allows for us to hire Daboll as an offensive advisor/assistant HC, than I’m all for it.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

40 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

Watching last night and my observations:

 

Still can't draw up screens and reverses, the dline just teeing off on them

doesn't use motion well to create space

gets away from the run game

WR's either are small and quick, or big and slow

Constantly stuck in 3rd and long

He had a trick play thrown in that absolutely blew up and killed the drive too lol I think we hit brian bingo 

[Mango]

40 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

My issue is that Daboll's offense tends to come off really soft.  They never run the ball well, get away from it, and the oline then is on their heels all game.  

 

Dorsey fell into a lot of the same traps last year, but they came out this season wanting to play a more physical brand of football.  It probably won't break any records for yards, but puts them in a lot more makeable 3rd downs, gives you options in the red zone, and can help limit turnovers.  Buffalo was 31st in turnovers offensively last season, which hurts some of the impact of the defenses ability to get takeaways.  

 

They want to make him Josh Allen and its just not there, he doesn't have it between the ears.  When he gets out of the pocket it just seems like run is first and pass is second.  He made a few plays out there but half the time he throws out of structure im just expecting it to fall incomplete or out of bounds - so you just end up wanting him to run.  He's athletic and a decent runner but if that's the best attribute in his game he should be running like a 4.4 or something.  

 

I don't disagree with you, but last night he completed 79% of his passes (27/34). The Mannings were pretty critical of play call and personnel groupings last night. With a lot of "Everybody is covered" and "Where is he supposed to throw when all he has is the backs of his receivers heads" on top of it. (paraphrasing)

Jones isn't great, but I think he is getting thrown under the bus for last night. The pick 6 wasn't good but it also wasn't the most flagrant issue with the team either. It isn't like the team was awesome and they were a QB away. That game wasn't his fault. A lot is going wrong with the Giants. I don't like Dabolls reaction to it. I think he is treating Jones like Saleh is treating White. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

You just 'Garry Marshall' the whole situation.  When they canceled 'Joanie Loves Chachi', Garry just reabsorbed the characters into 'Happy Days'. 😁

[djp14150]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:37 PM, The 9 Isles said:

What would you do? 

It’s not happening.  He GM is from buffalo.

 

let’s not forget the giants have a brutal schedule to start.

 

they start with 5 of 6 playoff teams last year. End with eagles in 2 out of 3 and judt have Dallas mid season out of 8 games.

 

in terms of facing playoff teams…the fewest a team would face is 4 ( their division winner twice and division winners of the two divisions they face)….the most is 14 if you are in a division with 3 wild card teams and you won and face a division in other conference with 3 wild card teams 

 

buffalo plays fins twice, 3 pos 1st place, chiefs, chargers, 3 in nfc east. A total of 10.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

32 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

It’s not happening.  He GM is from buffalo.

 

let’s not forget the giants have a brutal schedule to start.

 

they start with 5 of 6 playoff teams last year. End with eagles in 2 out of 3 and judt have Dallas mid season out of 8 games.

 

in terms of facing playoff teams…the fewest a team would face is 4 ( their division winner twice and division winners of the two divisions they face)….the most is 14 if you are in a division with 3 wild card teams and you won and face a division in other conference with 3 wild card teams 

 

buffalo plays fins twice, 3 pos 1st place, chiefs, chargers, 3 in nfc east. A total of 10.

They themselves were a playoff team last year and they beat a playoff team last year though.  If ‘oh we’re playing a lot of playoff teams early’ is a valid excuse there’s major problems 

 

I’d excuse getting stomped by the cowboys but sneaking by the cardinals and getting blown out by the Seahawks is rough 

[Blackbeard]

I wouldn't bring him back at this stage.

 

What Dorsey is doing is working.  Josh is upright and not running like crazy.  Plus, a LOT of time has been sunk into this new direction. 

 

If it aint broke....

Edited October 3, 2023 by Blackbeard

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

54 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

It’s not happening.  He GM is from buffalo.

 

let’s not forget the giants have a brutal schedule to start.

 

they start with 5 of 6 playoff teams last year. End with eagles in 2 out of 3 and judt have Dallas mid season out of 8 games.

 

in terms of facing playoff teams…the fewest a team would face is 4 ( their division winner twice and division winners of the two divisions they face)….the most is 14 if you are in a division with 3 wild card teams and you won and face a division in other conference with 3 wild card teams 

 

buffalo plays fins twice, 3 pos 1st place, chiefs, chargers, 3 in nfc east. A total of 10.

 

I can't pick the giants as much of a favorite in any of their remaining games.  Maybe raiders?  

 

They had their tyrod taylor playoff year last year, and instead of figuring out QB and dumping bad contracts and trying to rebuild.  They doubled down on danny dimes and barkley as their offensive identity.  

[JGMcD2]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

it is just message board fodder. My point is that if we are talking about going after fired head coaches I would much prefer a guy like McVay who has been apart of a lot of good offenses but failed with some of the HC management over a guy who has like 8 years of bottom 5 offenses in the NFL and 2-3 good years with Josh. 

In reality if LAR moved on from McVay I would guess he gets another HC gig. But I do think when you have a guy like Josh and a defensive HC, Buffalo becomes a possible landing spot for FA HC to reset for a couple of seasons before their next HC position. So I guess there could be a possibility however unlikely. 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love it - it's just something I could never see happening. 

 

He'll get snapped up very quickly to be a HC or will take his talents to the broadcast booth. I doubt he'd have any interest in being a coordinator. 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, DapperCam said:

This is unforgivable from a WNY native. He didn’t have to put on that Rangers vest.

The Sabres are a dog water organization and life long WNYers barely care about them.