Why Dorsey is not the answer

[ganesh]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:06 PM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

We haven't agreed on a lot in the past, but we damned sure agree on this.

 

The plan was working, in the first half, allen was completing passes at a 70% clip, with only the one egregious error. Then his head ensconced itself firmly in the backside and he lost the script

 

or may be the Jets had better half-time adjustments

[PBF81]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:51 PM, BillsUberAlles said:

Allen has to start becoming OK with winning games ugly sometimes and not needing to blow teams out.

 

There is no reason this game should have been lost. Sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done to win the game and then go back to crushing teams next week.

 

Same issue as to when we almost lost to the Dolphins in the playoffs...Allen trying to crush them is what led to all the turnovers. It's one thing to go for the jugular. It's another to constantly try and force big plays instead of taking what's available.

 

Completely agree.  But again, isn't that an ongoing, five seasons now, coaching issue?  

 

Either McD & Dorsey have control of the situation, or they do not.  Those are the only two options.  

 

That reality seems apparent to me, but what do I know.  

 

 

[26TrapDraw]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:36 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It was a bad call. 

Yes that’s the point. A volunteer pop Warner coach wouldn’t call that draw play on 2nd and15 why would a Pro Offensive coordinator do it?

just asinine.

[Beck Water]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:32 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Hackett was the dual offensive coordinator and quarterback coach for Blake bortles

 

When Blake threw for over 4,000 yards and 35 touchdowns... Both would have been Bill's records pre Josh Allen

 

He also took the ghost of Kyle Orton and had him average 250 yards per game... And Sammy Watkins had the best year of his career playing for him... He didn't do anything wrong in Green Bay to mess up his resume

 

Despite what happened in Denver... Which Russell Wilson literally apologized for not going about it right... aka didn't try...

 

Hackett has had success at multiple stops... He helped Blake bortles throw for 35 touchdowns... That's scheming

 

 

 

Facts

When Blake Bortles threw for >4000 yards in 2015 in Jacksonville, Greg Olson was the offensive coordinator under Gus Bradley.

Hackett was the QB coach, not dual OC and QB coach, and Doug Marrone was in there somewhere as "Assistant HC/Offensive line"

 

It was Olson's 4th stint as OC, so I don't think he was believed to be a figurehead.  I don't know too much about him, other than that he seemed to be well thought of during a stint with the Rams and Bulgar, just after the "Mad Mike" Martz era.  But I don't think Hackett was the "ghost OC" for Olson, Olson wasn't a novice.

 

Hackett DID take over in Jax about midway through the 2016 season after Marrone got Gus Bradley fired, but that's always an ambiguous question how much the mid-season replacement is responsible for and also how much Hackett was responsible for as OC vs. Marrone (didn't Marrone call the plays?).  The Jags were 2-5 when Hackett took over as OC, and finished the season 3-13 so it's not like he "righted the ship" or anything.

On 9/12/2023 at 8:50 PM, Buffalo716 said:

 

Dorsey , had an unknown upside as a young coordinator with nothing on tape... And he was handed a top five scoring offense

 

So now it's on him to keep the reigns going and adjust

 

4,000 yards and 35 passing touchdowns is still a hell of a season even in 2023... Only three quarterbacks in the entire League last year would have qualified with both those statistics

 

So he did a tremendous job with that jags offense and bortles... Certainly the best part of his resume

 

Again - nothing against Hackett but he was QB coach only and Greg Olson was OC when Bortles threw for 4428 yds and 35 passing TDs.

So it's very much to his credit as a QB coach, but it's simply not on Hackett's resume as an OC

 

It would be analogous to giving Dorsey credit as OC for Josh Allen's 2020 and 2021 season - he was QB coach, he deserves credit for that, but not credit as OC

Edited September 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[BillsUberAlles]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:32 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Hackett was the dual offensive coordinator and quarterback coach for Blake bortles

 

When Blake threw for over 4,000 yards and 35 touchdowns... Both would have been Bill's records pre Josh Allen

 

He also took the ghost of Kyle Orton and had him average 250 yards per game... And Sammy Watkins had the best year of his career playing for him... He didn't do anything wrong in Green Bay to mess up his resume

 

Despite what happened in Denver... Which Russell Wilson literally apologized for not going about it right... aka didn't try...

 

Hackett has had success at multiple stops... He helped Blake bortles throw for 35 touchdowns... That's scheming

 

 

 

I mean we averaged over 21 points a game with EJ Manuel, Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis as our QBs under him.

 

That's not horrible.

Edited September 14, 2023 by BillsUberAlles

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They weren't going to smash-mouth the Jets, dave.

 

Not sure what game you watched.   Wasn't going to happen at the level of execution they are at as an offensive line at this point.   Break out those inside gap runs versus the Raiders at home........not in the Jets game.    They needed to keep the chains moving and the options were there to do it all game.   3 runs and a punt *might* have gotten the job done but it leaves you vulnerable to one mistake on defense.  If Benford doesn't make that great hustle play the Jets would have had the lead a lot longer.   

I'm not saying run it every play; I'm saying shift to a run-heavy under-center mode with a non-fumbler, work in play action, and don't turn the goddamn ball over and you'll likely win. Murray never fumbles, and making safe passes on occasion gets you another field goal opportunity or two. It's not like they were passing to set up the run or running to set up the pass; they ran only to slow down the d-line pass rush (or so it seemed) and got into a chuck-and-duck mode that resulted in a ton of turnovers. The only way you lose to Zack Wilson with a ten-point lead is if you play high-risk pass-the-ball-75-percent-of-time-against-an-elite-pass-defense, and that's exactly what they did. Allen was horrible, but the game plan didn't change to account for circumstances and that's on the OC.

[BillsUberAlles]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Completely agree.  But again, isn't that an ongoing, five seasons now, coaching issue?  

 

Either McD & Dorsey have control of the situation, or they do not.  Those are the only two options.  

 

That reality seems apparent to me, but what do I know.  

 

 

 

Could it be that regardless of the occasional loss, they are still so successful with this method that there is little impedus for him to really change?

 

I mean they have the best record in the NFL since 2020.

[gobills1212]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:34 AM, MAJBobby said:

Yes thought about it. 
 

dorsey had a heck of a game plan for that defense. All Josh needed to do was take the open player. He didn’t. 
 

that is an often thing with him and will get put in the OC. 
 

just like it did with Daboll and now it is with Dorsey. I think people need to start putting a lot of the blame on the shoulders of 17 where it belongs 

I dont see how anyone rational can disagree with this. Was it the most fun to watch? No. Was it fristrating at time watching him repeatedly run Cook at Williams rather than get in space or seemingly call a run play just because he hadnt called on in a while like in OT? No. But the script was there. Josh just got sick of or too impatient to keep doing what he himself was preaching in taking what the D gave him. All Dorse can do is call the plays. To judge him bc his qb went off script is judging him falsely.  Are there issues? Sure. Rather than having someone who grounds him I think KC encourages him but thats not whats being discussed. You couldnt have spoken truer words and it amazes me people could disagree

[PBF81]

14 minutes ago, BillsUberAlles said:

Could it be that regardless of the occasional loss, they are still so successful with this method that there is little impedus for him to really change?

 

I mean they have the best record in the NFL since 2020.

 

That's kind of an eyes of the beholder question, but imo absolutely.  In fact that's exactly it as I view it.  

 

Having said that, where would we be with most other QBs besides Allen?  Not there.  Imagine how we'd be with Orton, Manuel, Fitzpatrick, Edwards, Losman, Holcomb or Bledsoe.  No way we'd be making the playoffs.  McD did worse offensively with Taylor than his predecessor did.  Both Taylor and the offense by about 100 points, and dropping a dozen spots in the offensive rankings.  

 

But consider, what happens in the playoffs?  If Allen doesn't go bananas we typically lose.  He's personally and almost singlehandedly responsible for 3 of McD's playoff wins.  The fourth wouldn't have happened without one of those.  

 

So "best record" is one thing.  The ability to compete in the playoffs without your QB having to do just about everything is entirely another. 

 

That's gotta be an enormous mental burden for Allen, that quite frankly, shouldn't be there on him personally like that.  

 

 

[Low Positive]

Fans of every team complain about the offensive playcalling, especially after a loss. Here's a thread of Bengals fans complaining about offensive genius Zach Taylor: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Outcoached--36362

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Facts

When Blake Bortles threw for >4000 yards in 2015 in Jacksonville, Greg Olson was the offensive coordinator under Gus Bradley.

Hackett was the QB coach, not dual OC and QB coach, and Doug Marrone was in there somewhere as "Assistant HC/Offensive line"

 

It was Olson's 4th stint as OC, so I don't think he was believed to be a figurehead.  I don't know too much about him, other than that he seemed to be well thought of during a stint with the Rams and Bulgar, just after the "Mad Mike" Martz era.  But I don't think Hackett was the "ghost OC" for Olson, Olson wasn't a novice.

 

Hackett DID take over in Jax about midway through the 2016 season after Marrone got Gus Bradley fired, but that's always an ambiguous question how much the mid-season replacement is responsible for and also how much Hackett was responsible for as OC vs. Marrone (didn't Marrone call the plays?).  The Jags were 2-5 when Hackett took over as OC, and finished the season 3-13 so it's not like he "righted the ship" or anything.

 

Again - nothing against Hackett but he was QB coach only and Greg Olson was OC when Bortles threw for 4428 yds and 35 passing TDs.

So it's very much to his credit as a QB coach, but it's simply not on Hackett's resume as an OC

 

It would be analogous to giving Dorsey credit as OC for Josh Allen's 2020 and 2021 season - he was QB coach, he deserves credit for that, but not credit as OC

My bad hackett was dual OC and QB coach in 16 then .. 1 season 

 

And my point stands that Hackett was working with quarterbacks that needed a lot of work... Manuel and tuel , thad Lewis and bortles .. Bill's offense still scored 21 a game under those bums which is a testament

 

Allen had a slew of professionals building him since craig bohl , the work with palmer is huge ... daboll was like a father ... McDermott was a calm figure ... David culley was a college QB , with years of coaching all over the offense

 

And then Dorsey 

 

He's had a slew of guys building him up for years... and the light has been clicking since year 2 ... If you're not getting better in the NFL you're regressing

 

So yeah right now Josh needs to figure it out... And Dorsey and him need to have a long talk about the future of the offense 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Big Blitz]

I can’t keep up with the threads.  But this bears posting everywhere:

 

 

First 6 games of 2022:

 

2300 yards  66%  14 TDs  4 INTs 

 

 

Last 13 games including playoffs and Jets:

 

 

2700 yards 60%  22 TDs   16 INTs 

 

 

^^^^ That’s almost a full season.  
 

And I did the math - the yardage is roughly that it’s within 50 or so yards.   

Edited September 14, 2023 by Big Blitz

[T master]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:36 AM, ScottLaw said:

Game plan seemed too conservative.(shocker) they played scared of the Jets defense for most of the game…. And Josh was a ***** show.

 

They were playing one of if no the best defenses in the league which means pressure on Josh is almost constant & wasn't most of Allen's INT's when he was airing it out WAY down field so how was that conservative ?

 

What i saw on a lot of replay was players open under neath & Josh didn't see them or was going for the home run ball at times which i haven't rematched the game but a lot of people that i talk to said there were people mostly TE's open josh just didn't go to them .

 

And in a game like that with a very tough D i would think you don't have the luxury of time for a play to develop so you have to be a bit more conservative at first then pick and choose when you go big .

 

But ultimately it comes down to the players executing you can have the best calls made if they don't execute it's all for not .

Edited September 14, 2023 by T master

[Pirate Angel]

47 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

My bad hackett was dual OC and QB coach in 16 then .. 1 season 

 

And my point stands that Hackett was working with quarterbacks that needed a lot of work... Manuel and tuel , thad Lewis and bortles .. Bill's offense still scored 21 a game under those bums which is a testament

 

Allen had a slew of professionals building him since craig bohl , the work with palmer is huge ... daboll was like a father ... McDermott was a calm figure ... David culley was a college QB , with years of coaching all over the offense

 

And then Dorsey 

 

He's had a slew of guys building him up for years... and the light has been clicking since year 2 ... If you're not getting better in the NFL you're regressing

 

So yeah right now Josh needs to figure it out... And Dorsey and him need to have a long talk about the future of the offense 

Marrone called the plays when Hackett was here, not only that but playing the Bills was just another game in that era now they are the team to beat in the AFC east like beating the Brady Pats was a Superbowl to us not long ago.

The gameplan was solid and the game was winnable, how careless Josh was with the ball makes it almost impossible to win in this league.

[harmonkillebrew]

Dorsey is a bad fit for Josh. He needs an OC that will reign him in and not give him the opportunity to make stupid plays at bad moments.

I wish it wasn't true, but Josh needs constant coaching. He's not the QB that can thrive and win with just any old OC.

[jaybee]

On 9/12/2023 at 9:35 AM, RoyBatty is alive said:

Ok so we lost it at the end and HOW is this all on DORSEY?

Hey gotta blame somebody right ?  Remember when they all used to blame EVERY loss on Daboll ?   Its fun to watch freakout central when they lose. .  When they win next time everyone will say Dorsey called that game like a GENIUS !!.  Just don't blame Josh.  That'll get you banned by the HS forum lawyers here on Algore's amazing internet !!!!

 

GO BILLS !!

[Logic]

I haven't read the 10 pages of this thread because I don't hate myself, but...

Has anyone mentioned the four turnovers that Dorsey committed? That was BY FAR his most egregious contribution to the loss on Monday.

Until Ken Dorsey stops throwing into double coverage, we're screwed.

[Low Positive]

5 minutes ago, jaybee said:

Hey gotta blame somebody right ?  Remember when they all used to blame EVERY loss on Daboll ?   Its fun to watch freakout central when they lose. .  When they win next time everyone will say Dorsey called that game like a GENIUS !!.  Just don't blame Josh.  That'll get you banned by the HS forum lawyers here on Algore's amazing internet !!!!

 

GO BILLS !!

Everybody has been blaming Josh here all week.

[CEN-CAL17]

 

 

This is play design… this is Dorsey. Multiple players running concepts routes incorrectly in which Warner says won’t work the way the Bills execute it. And I agree 100%.

 

[dave mcbride]

10 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

 

 

This is play design… this is Dorsey. Multiple players running concepts routes incorrectly in which Warner says won’t work the way the Bills execute it. And I agree 100%.

 

This is pretty good. Hard to pin down specific blame, though; it might be players simply running bad routes. But of course that's coaching too. The Davis route was really poor.

[CEN-CAL17]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

This is pretty good. Hard to pin down specific blame, though; it might be players simply running bad routes. But of course that's coaching too. The Davis route was really poor.

Gabe and Kincaid both ran corner routes at 7 yards…. Which let me think that’s how they want it. But that small separation isn’t helping the QB

[Coach Tuesday]

13 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

 

 

This is play design… this is Dorsey. Multiple players running concepts routes incorrectly in which Warner says won’t work the way the Bills execute it. And I agree 100%.

 

That is disgusting execution.  Just a glaring lack of precision.  Not just Dorsey - don’t forget Chad Hall is gone and there’s a new WR coach.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Can Dorsey craft an offense where Diggs, Kincaid and Knox are featured. 

 

The Coaches had to have their power backs, but I don't have faith that Murray or Harris really get involved in this offense. 

 

And can the black hole that is Gabe Davis at 99% snaps be mitigated? 

 

I don't have any faith that Sherfield, Shakir or Harty do anything. Our OC couldn't figure out how to get Hines the ball a couple of times a game, so I have no faith these depth WRs even get on the field. 

 

The "creativity" bar is so low for the Bills, any pre-snap motion catches your eye because it's so stationary. 

 

Diggs needs 12-15 targets per game. 

 

Our offense feels so clunky because there is no #2 option in the pass or run game. 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

That is disgusting execution.  Just a glaring lack of precision.  Not just Dorsey - don’t forget Chad Hall is gone and there’s a new WR coach.

Even Gabe's big 26-yard catch against the Jets.

 

Look at where catches that ball and where Diggs is. 

 

They both run to virtually the same spot, with a cluster of Jets there. So even that looked clunky and strange, with no spacing. 

[Big Blitz]

Jets safeties jump the first break HARD on those routes - they have faith the pass rush is going to get home to be doing that.  
 

More double moves, another second in the pocket is needed.  
 

 

Also, my God.  All 7 defenders immediately backing up on these (and most) plays.  No fear of the run at all.  And we were up 7-10 points most of the game.  

Edited September 15, 2023 by Big Blitz

[RyanC883]

Yes, JA was awful 

 

But we have too many weapons on this offense to need JA to be superman every week—that’s on coaching from the top down. 

On 9/14/2023 at 3:16 PM, FrenchConnection said:

Fans of every team complain about the offensive playcalling, especially after a loss. Here's a thread of Bengals fans complaining about offensive genius Zach Taylor: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Outcoached--36362

 

yeah, but Bengals is an overreaction.  We had this mess for almost a season now per another poster:

 

First 6 games of 2022:

 

2300 yards  66%  14 TDs  4 INTs 

 

 

Last 13 games including playoffs and Jets:

 

 

2700 yards 60%  22 TDs   16 INTs 

 

 

^^^^ That’s almost a full season.  
 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by RyanC883

[Bob in STL]

On 9/14/2023 at 4:15 PM, Big Blitz said:

I can’t keep up with the threads.  But this bears posting everywhere:

 

 

First 6 games of 2022:

 

2300 yards  66%  14 TDs  4 INTs 

 

 

Last 13 games including playoffs and Jets:

 

 

2700 yards 60%  22 TDs   16 INTs 

 

 

^^^^ That’s almost a full season.  
 

And I did the math - the yardage is roughly that it’s within 50 or so yards.   

Interesting numbers.  
 

Josh had a lot of good games in the last 13 but clearly something is wrong.  It’s hard for me to blame Dorsey for the Jets game. Josh had the turnovers and he was bailing out of the pocket a lot. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

My main gripe with Dorsey is that there doesn't seem to be any types of certain plays for when Josh is having 1 of these games, he has them almost every season (Just like many of these top notch QB's) but nothing is in place, he absolutely refuses to adjust when Josh is struggling. I'll say it again and again take away his long ball passes when he's having games like this, bubble screen to his TE's or Harty, 5 yard crossing plays or outs to his outside guys and here's a concept, run the ball down their throat. I thought Cook looked really good and why in the hell did we bring in Damien Harris? 1 Attempt for 3 yards? I'm really starting to dislike this OC more and more, I heard people say it's on Josh, I totally agree but I also agree it's the OC's job to adjust when his QB is having difficulties and this was my same gripe last season. Why did we stay away from short passes to Harty? How did RB Damien Harris only get 1 carry? Why aren't we throwing to our TE's more? Stop force feeding Diggs and win the friggin GAME!!!

[Warriorspikes51]

Shotgun every snap, no motion, run plays are horribly designed

[balln]

You would think. They would counter and run a pump fake double move. On the corner receiver. Fake the corner and go to post. Especially late in the game when the bulls had been running the same ***** all game. 
 

 

[T master]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:30 AM, dave mcbride said:

Some eye-opening numbers from last night:

 

The Bills held the lead for 37 minutes and 18 seconds of regulation.

 

The Jets held the lead for 1 minute and 46 seconds of regulation.

 

The score was tied for 20 minutes and 56 seconds of regulation.

 

Josh Allen dropped back 46 times (41 attempts; 5 sacks) and ran it another six times (half of which were scrambles if I recall correctly). The Bills' running backs ran it 16 times. 

 

Think about that.

 

🙄  WELL ??? So 1 bad game & 1 kick ass game which is the norm for Josh what say you now ?

[Drew21PA]

I think the outoxme would have been the same as the raiders of Josh listened and I think he knows it 

[Big Blitz]

Dorsey is still learning - it’s not what I want for a SB team but it’s what McD decided was best.  

 

Game plan.  Execute game plan.  Did game plan work?  
 

 

He got all 3 right yesterday and deserves credit.  He doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt tho because he's still new at this and needs to beat the ***t out of an elite defense.   

 

But for the first time - after a disaster of a game - him and Josh were in sync.  
 

If I’m going to criticize him for contributing bad play calls or bad play that leads to turnovers then the opposite has to be true also.

 

Hopefully the Jets game serves as some sort of turning point in Dorsey and Josh’s chemistry.  That Ken has got Josh and the offense all on the same page and executing.   

[DrDawkinstein]

On 9/12/2023 at 12:48 PM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's easier with hindsight, but the idea of firing McD and Frazier after 13 seconds, promoting Dabol, and bringing in say Jim Schwartz as DC sure looks good right now.

 

Similar to the Falcons, when they should have fired Quinn and promoted Shanahan after the Super Bowl loss.

 

I. Was. Wrong.

 

My apologies to McDermott.

 

Turns out the answer was just firing Frazier and giving Sean control of the defense. Not sure how big of a difference it would have made last year with all the ridiculousness of that season. But at least right now it seems they got it figured out.

[John from Riverside]

I actually don’t think that Dorsey has been bad in any of these games
 

Game one was noticeable because Josh wasn’t following the game plan. He quickly cleaned that up going in the game two

 

We literally have one of if not the best offenses in the league

[AKC]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:30 AM, dave mcbride said:

Some eye-opening numbers from last night:

 

The Bills held the lead for 37 minutes and 18 seconds of regulation.

 

The Jets held the lead for 1 minute and 46 seconds of regulation.

 

The score was tied for 20 minutes and 56 seconds of regulation.

 

Josh Allen dropped back 46 times (41 attempts; 5 sacks) and ran it another six times (half of which were scrambles if I recall correctly). The Bills' running backs ran it 16 times. 

 

Think about that.

 

Your posts apparently are not arriving at OBD in a timely manner.