Why Dorsey is not the answer

[Meatloaf63]

38 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Yes thought about it. 
 

dorsey had a heck of a game plan for that defense. All Josh needed to do was take the open player. He didn’t. 
 

that is an often thing with him and will get put in the OC. 
 

just like it did with Daboll and now it is with Dorsey. I think people need to start putting a lot of the blame on the shoulders of 17 where it belongs 

Heck of a game plan with zero creativity for Kincaid, still some plays with zero short options and not a strong enough personality to control Josh’s stupidity.

[Livinginthepast]

Dorsey has been way to conservative in his game plans. He doesn't mix things up or think out of the box. It is literally like a high school coach working with a young QB and team (he makes things too simple and takes no risks). Ironically this approach does 2 things to Josh's game. First it puts him into a situation that he unlikely to succeed and misses his strengths. Secondly it makes Josh frustrated and he tries to force things (2 INTS against double coverage). 

 

The 2nd major problem with Dorsey is the lack of in game adjustments. The playoff game vs the Bengals was a perfect example. He keeps trying the same plays even when they are ineffective or when the opposing D has adjusted and neutralized them. Football is a chess game of strategy and not adjusting throughout is insane.

 

I think the jury was out on Dorsey last season until the playoff games when he was poor. The offseason was supposed to see a major jump in quality in the offensive game planning but last night looked exactly the same as the worst elements last year. Unfortunately, Josh has bailed out Dorsey a number of times last year but last night Josh was horrible and made Dorsey's poor play calling even worse.  I

 

I think the heat really has to be on Dorsey now to figure this out. If he cannot work with Allen then he needs to go. 

[dave mcbride]

8 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

This isn’t the 1970s. The short passes (runs) were called. Josh ignored them 

Tell that to the 49ers and the Eagles. Run pass balance is used to HELP the passing game because it slows down a pass rush. The Jets were defaulting to pass rushing all night because the Bills were dropping back at such a heavy rate.

[Thurman#1]

36 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Some eye-opening numbers from last night:

 

The Bills held the lead for 37 minutes and 18 seconds of regulation.

 

The Jets held the lead for 1 minute and 46 seconds of regulation.

 

The score was tied for 20 minutes and 56 seconds of regulation.

 

Josh Allen dropped back 46 times (41 attempts; 5 sacks) and ran it another six times (half of which were scrambles if I recall correctly). The Bills' running backs ran it 16 times. 

 

Think about that.

 

 

Those don't prove what you're trying to prove. When your OL isn't doing a good job of running, it's not necessarily a bad idea not to run it much.

 

Generally, this offense is better at passing than running. Generally it's a great idea to put the ball in Allen's hands more. Not yesterday, though.

 

Sixteen non-Allen runs and 61 yards resulting. We weren't doing it well.

 

If Allen had simply made better choices on the plays when he made awful choices, we would have scored at least six more points and won.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Those don't prove what you're trying to prove. When your OL isn't doing a good job of running, it's not necessarily a bad idea not to run it much.

 

Generally, this offense is better at passing than running. Generally it's a great idea to put the ball in Allen's hands more. Not yesterday, though.

 

Sixteen non-Allen runs and 61 yards resulting. We weren't doing it well.

 

If Allen had simply made better choices on the plays when he made awful choices, we would have scored at least six more points and won.

 

 

I don't know how many times I need to say this, but the Bills had the lead for most of the game and running plays are generally safe plays. Why not play ball control against a team with a terrible QB? They also slow down pass rushes because d-lines have to play differently. The Jets have a good run defense, but their pass defense is even better. 

 

Again, I thought Allen was terrible last night. Not trying to deflect blame, but more than one thing can be wrong. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by dave mcbride

[Thurman#1]

 

 

10 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Purely my opinion but I think if Dorsey calls too many runing plays by RBs, Allen will simply change the play at the line of scrimmage. He just cannot help running it himself or looking for deep shots. If they aren't there, dont take it! At this point, I am convinced his stubbornness and boneheaded decision making in the moment is holding this team back. 

 

This is also something we all forget. And shouldn't. Just because we run a play does not mean it's the one Dorsey called.

 

 

[Reed83HOF]

48 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Yes thought about it. 
 

dorsey had a heck of a game plan for that defense. All Josh needed to do was take the open player. He didn’t. 
 

that is an often thing with him and will get put in the OC. 
 

just like it did with Daboll and now it is with Dorsey. I think people need to start putting a lot of the blame on the shoulders of 17 where it belongs 

He's not listening to coaching,  on the run where he turned back inside,  he should have run out of bounds.  McD goes over to him points the finger to his head and says be smart,  then Josh tries to hurdle 7 defenders and is still 8 yards short...

 

The OC will take a fall here, but Josh shoulders a lot of the blame.  Curious to see what the all 22 shows and if Josh is not taking the underneath stuff again...

[eball]

48 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Game plan seemed too conservative.(shocker) they played scared of the Jets defense for most of the game…. And Josh was a ***** show.

 

That conservative game plan was FINE until Josh took two stupid deep shots into double coverage, and then ignored a wide open Kincaid to force a throw to Davis.

 

It's not about how many times you hand off.  The short passing game was our running game and it was working.  Josh just lost his shite for some unknown reason.

 

[Thurman#1]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

I don't know how many times I need to say this, but the Bills had the lead for most of the game and running plays are generally safe plays. Why not play ball control against a team with a terrible QB? They also slow down pass rushes because d-lines have to play differently. The Jets have a good run defense, but their pass defense is even better. 

 

 

Hint:  Repeating things does not make them make more sense than they did in the first place.

 

The pass defense really wasn't the problem. Four absolutely awful plays by Allen were. The first one maybe wasn't so dreadful, but the other three were.

 

And while safe plays can sometimes win the game, safe unsuccessful plays can sometimes lose it.

[C.Biscuit97]

Who would have thought that a guy who never had done the job at any level might struggle in the nfl??? And this is with a top 3 qb and borderline top 5 receiver. 
 

I get why he was promoted but it was a way riskier move than people thought it was. My move would have been to get Eric Bienemy. Imagine what he could have done with Allen. That’s a Super Bowl move right there.

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Hint:  Repeating things does not make them make more sense than they did in the first place.

 

The pass defense really wasn't the problem. Four absolutely awful plays by Allen were. The first one maybe wasn't so dreadful, but the other three were.

 

And while safe plays can sometimes win the game, safe unsuccessful plays can sometimes lose it.

?? -- The Bills had nine negative plays on dropbacks: 4 turnovers (one of which was a fumble out of the shotgun) and five sacks. They had 217 net passing yards on 47 dropbacks (including the fumble play) which is 4.6 yards per passing play. That's horrible. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by dave mcbride

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, eball said:

 

That conservative game plan was FINE until Josh took two stupid deep shots into double coverage, and then ignored a wide open Kincaid to force a throw to Davis.

 

It's not about how many times you hand off.  The short passing game was our running game and it was working.  Josh just lost his shite for some unknown reason.

 

When you're giving up that many sacks and averaging 4.6 net yards per passing play (and passing plays bring more risk than running plays), it's not working. Plus think about the opponent: Zach Wilson is horrible and the Jets' o-line is a sieve in pass pro. 

[GunnerBill]

I actually have some thoughts on Ken Dorsey big picture and last night more specifically. But I am not willing to get into them today. Because last night was on Josh Allen. And unless he plays better we are toast. Two of his three picks were into double coverage and the one he got away with to CJ Mosely was into triple coverage. You can have Bill Walsh and Don Coryell calling the plays and designing the offense. If your QB's decision making is that bad it won't matter.

 

[Airseven]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

A conservative short passing offense clearly isn’t Josh’s game… and if that’s the game they want to play it would help having some guys with speed and burst who can get instant separation with good YAC ability on the field… they don’t have that at all. Just a weird mismatch of personnel. 

Harty is good for two yards whenever you want it. 👍

[CountDorkula]

How is this Dorsey’s fault?
 

watch the underneath about the first down line. 

he has guys open. And just finest throw to them. He gets impatient and I think teams know that now. 
 

https://x.com/complexsports/status/1701604430909768105?s=46&t=aPpesQ9OFgU8cA3wnTdNeA

[pigpen65]

I watched a bunch of other games on Sunday. It's not normal for QB's of other teams to have to constantly progress through 3 or 4 reads to find a guy to throw to. The majority are one read. And it's not Allen, because when Dabol was here Allen wasn't constantly in a fire drill every single play.

Edited September 12, 2023 by pigpen65

[John from Riverside]

Three interceptions
 

You can’t put that on the offensive coordinator

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I actually have some thoughts on Ken Dorsey big picture and last night more specifically. But I am not willing to get into them today. Because last night was on Josh Allen. And unless he plays better we are toast. Two of his three picks were into double coverage and the one he got away with to CJ Mosely was into triple coverage. You can have Bill Walsh and Don Coryell calling the plays and designing the offense. If your QB's decision making is that bad it won't matter.

 

Well, I certainly don't disagree with this. But if you're an OC and see this happening -- and you have the lead against a team led by Zach Freaking Wilson -- you adjust your plan. I didn't see that last night.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Three interceptions
 

You can’t put that on the offensive coordinator

That’s fair too 

[BillsFan130]

My biggest issue with Dorsey are two things:

 

1. Shotgun I think basically every play?

 

2. Not enough Play action.

 

You are just inviting a great jets front 4 to tee off that way

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Drew21PA said:

Weird - because I saw theee times where we were moving the ball consistently and then - boom josh Allen gave it back to the jets?

 

Yeah, sorry, again, I probably should have specified, I meant moving the ball in our direction, not the Jets' direction.  

 

Other than the aforementioned FG drive, we had four drives totaling 70 yards, an average of 17 yards/drive with a long drive of 34.

 

In the first half we had two scoring drives of 75 and 60.  

 

Hence the comparison and contrast.   

 

 

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Well, I certainly don't disagree with this. But if you're an OC and see this happening -- and you have the lead against a team led by Zach Freaking Wilson -- you adjust your plan. I didn't see that last night.

 

I get that but unless your plan is never throw..... I mean Allen was an INT waiting to happen on almost every drop back. 

 

Maybe they should have just gone, run, run, run, punt the entire 2nd half. And you might be right that might have been enough. But man oh man the QB was terrible. He single handed lost us that game.

17 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

How is this Dorsey’s fault?
 

watch the underneath about the first down line. 

he has guys open. And just finest throw to them. He gets impatient and I think teams know that now. 
 

https://x.com/complexsports/status/1701604430909768105?s=46&t=aPpesQ9OFgU8cA3wnTdNeA

 

It isn't.

 

Kincaid in the flat - 1st down.

Diggs on the crosser - 1st down. 

 

Tries to fit one in to Davis in double coverage. And again we can talk if we like about the way Davis ran that route... but that get us away from why we lost. We lost because the QB made the wrong decisions. Time after time after time. It was EJ at Wembley level of terrible.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

I don’t like the playcalling or the overall game plan on most weeks but this is who we have. Anyone that wants a change, it’s not happening week 2. The only shot is if the wheels come off completely on the season and none of us want that. So we are stuck with this guy. McD might have to come in and start drawing red Xs through some pages. We better get back to what got us here or it’s going to get ugly.

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I get that but unless your plan is never throw..... I mean Allen was an INT waiting to happen on almost every drop back. 

 

Maybe they should have just gone, run, run, run, punt the entire 2nd half. And you might be right that might have been enough. But man oh man the QB was terrible. He single handed lost us that game.

I'm not saying never throw, of course, but I do think that you shift to ball control mode with a big back who almost never fumbles (Murray, who has one fumble in his last 722 carries and two in has last 938) with the occasional safe play action play. Maybe you get another field goal or two, and then put the pressure on Zack Wilson to make a play. Outside of the two early runs by Hall, the Jets did nothing on offense. Hall had 8 carries for 18 yards the rest of the way.

 

Anyway, I'm asking for situational awareness from the OC. I didn't see it last night.

Edited September 12, 2023 by dave mcbride

[Thurman#1]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

?? -- The Bills had nine negative plays on dropbacks: 4 turnovers (one of which was a fumble out of the shotgun) and five sacks. They had 217 net passing yards on 47 dropbacks (including the fumble play) which is 4.6 yards per passing play. That's horrible. 

 

 

Yeah, yeah. 

 

Still doesn't make your point, though. You can not - you simply can not - play as if your quarterback is going to throw balls as horrible as those throws. You can't. Especially if your quarterback is Josh Allen.

 

The blame for the awful plays today goes to the guy receiving the ball from the center. 

 

And yet still our big plays came from passes, our first downs came from passes, nearly all successful plays came from passes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, yeah. 

 

Still doesn't make your point, though. You can not - you simply can not - play as if your quarterback is going to throw balls as horrible as those throws. You can't. Especially if your quarterback is Josh Allen.

 

The blame for the awful plays today goes to the guy receiving the ball from the center. 

 

And yet still our big plays came from passes, our first downs came from passes, nearly all successful plays came from passes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See my point above about situational awareness - both of the score and the quality of the opposing offense. And they literally signed a big back who almost never fumbles.  

[Low Positive]

41 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Three interceptions
 

You can’t put that on the offensive coordinator

And a fumble that cost the Bills the game. 

[4th&long]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Ok so we lost it at the end and HOW is this all on DORSEY?

This is what I was thinking. I thought we were going to get some facts on Dorsey and what he is doing wrong. 
 

i am not defending Dorsey tho, it seems like the further we get away from dabol the worse Josh gets.

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

Tell that to the 49ers and the Eagles. Run pass balance is used to HELP the passing game because it slows down a pass rush. The Jets were defaulting to pass rushing all night because the Bills were dropping back at such a heavy rate.

OK as Josh Said "Same ***** different year"  And this is context with the fanbase immediately blaming the OC.

 

Fact is the 250M man laid a HUGE ***** EGG.  No one else to blame.

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

He's not listening to coaching,  on the run where he turned back inside,  he should have run out of bounds.  McD goes over to him points the finger to his head and says be smart,  then Josh tries to hurdle 7 defenders and is still 8 yards short...

 

The OC will take a fall here, but Josh shoulders a lot of the blame.  Curious to see what the all 22 shows and if Josh is not taking the underneath stuff again...

Yes it will.  Both those forced deep picks there was wide open shorter options.  One was Kincaid with 10 yards of space 

1 hour ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Heck of a game plan with zero creativity for Kincaid, still some plays with zero short options and not a strong enough personality to control Josh’s stupidity.

Yep Heck of a game plan.  I suggest watching the All-22 and take the 17 glasses off.

[Carmel Corn]

Why?  Because he has no experience as an NFL OC.  Buffalo can do better than an unproven OC who is trying to learn on the job.

[Thurman#1]

23 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I'm not saying never throw, of course, but I do think that you shift to ball control mode with a big back who almost never fumbles (Murray, who has one fumble in his last 722 carries and two in has last 938) with the occasional safe play action play. Maybe you get another field goal or two, and then put the pressure on Zack Wilson to make a play. Outside of the two early runs by Hall, the Jets did nothing on offense. Hall had 8 carries for 18 yards the rest of the way.

 

Anyway, I'm asking for situational awareness from the OC. I didn't see it last night.

 

 

Maybe you get another field goal or two.

 

Maybe you get one or two fewer.

 

The fact that you like the guess where we get more doesn't mean that's what would have happened.

 

And situational awareness is good, but part of the situation was that the Jets DL was beating us in the run game.

 

Wouldn't have minded seeing a few more runs myself, but my guess is they would have averaged less than four YPC as the ones they ran did. Five plays of five yards or more

 

Oh, and yes there were a lot of passes, but 10 of them came on our final drive of the game that started with 1:48 left in the 4th and down by three.

[Thurman#1]

12 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

See my point above about situational awareness - both of the score and the quality of the opposing offense. And they literally signed a big back who almost never fumbles.  

 

 

I did see it.

 

And it doesn't do anything for your argument.

 

The fact that a guy on the internet doesn't think they called them with situational awareness isn't a strong argument. 

 

And see my point that situational awareness includes the awareness to see that the defense is beating you up in the run game and that you're not running well.

 

The problem was Allen playing much much much worse than he usually played. I wouldn't have minded a few more runs myself. But you yourself said you have to pass some with Josh Allen. Yeah. And if he throws that badly, you still get INTs and turnovers. It's still a better bet, almost always, though today he played so badly it was not.

 

And my other point that if you don't turn the ball over but you also don't convert first downs successfully (and our run game was not successful) you're not going to have things turn out well. Maybe the Jets get an extra drive or three with us having a bunch of three-and-outs on runs. You're pretending this wouldn't happen, but it easily could have. No way to know either way.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I did see it.

 

And it doesn't do anything for your argument.

 

The fact that a guy on the internet doesn't think they called them with situational awareness isn't a strong argument. 

 

And see my point that situational awareness includes the awareness to see that the defense is beating you up in the run game and that you're not running well.

 

The problem was Allen playing much much much worse than he usually played. I wouldn't have minded a few more runs myself. But you yourself said you have to pass some with Josh Allen. Yeah. And if he throws that badly, you still get INTs and turnovers. It's still a better bet, almost always, though today he played so badly it was not.

 

And my other point that if you don't turn the ball over but you also don't convert first downs successfully (and our run game was not successful) you're not going to have things turn out well. Maybe the Jets get an extra drive or three with us having a bunch of three-and-outs on runs. You're pretending this wouldn't happen, but it easily could have. No way to know either way.

We can agree to disagree. I don't buy what you're selling and you don't buy what I'm selling. Fair enough. For the record, though, I thought that Allen was godawful last night and cost them the game. I mean, that's freaking obvious. But more than one thing can be wrong on a team. 

[MAJBobby]

18 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Why?  Because he has no experience as an NFL OC.  Buffalo can do better than an unproven OC who is trying to learn on the job.

He had guys open all game. 

 

Maybe the QB needs to grow up a bit

[CircleTheWagons99]

They REALLY need to practice the screen game for a week straight. Nothing else. 

[DrDawkinstein]

2 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Ok so we lost it at the end and HOW is this all on DORSEY?

 

Because all we needed was 17 points in regulation, and instead had stalled drive after stalled drive after stalled drive.

 

The 2nd INT should never had happened because no such play should have been called. We were slowly pounding and dinking the ball down the field. Keep at that. Grind it out.

 

But Josh/Dorsey just cant help themselves but to take those bad deep shots.

 

ONE field goal in the 3rd quarter and we win the game.

[frostbitmic]

2 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Ok so we lost it at the end and HOW is this all on DORSEY?

Dorsey throws too many INT's to be the OC.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

What I have wanted from day 1 with Allen is the 15 Cam Newton panthers offense. The sickening part is we have that OC on our coaching staff….can we make Mike Shula the OC? 

[Reed83HOF]

39 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Yes it will.  Both those forced deep picks there was wide open shorter options.  One was Kincaid with 10 yards of space.

I know it will, how often is what I'm curious about and it will be the same site, they are there and he doesn't take them.

 

Not turning this into an anti McDermott comment, but this is what happens when you have a defensive-minded HC vs an offensive-minded one, the offensive guy find success and leaves as an HC. I bring this up not as an argument to fire Sean and to keep Dabs, but it did appear Josh listened to Daboll. I also know our offense had funks with Daboll as well, but this is just feels a lot different.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said:

I know it will, how often is what I'm curious about and it will be the same site, they are there and he doesn't take them.

 

Not turning this into an anti McDermott comment, but this is what happens when you have a defensive-minded HC vs an offensive-minded one, the offensive guy find success and leaves as an HC. I bring this up not as an argument to fire Sean and to keep Dabs, but it did appear Josh listened to Daboll. I also know our offense had funks with Daboll as well, but this is just feels a lot different.

I have my issues with McD.  I think that is probably pretty well known.

 

But I also will not give Josh the Pass HE WANTED Dorsey to replace Daboll.  My issue with McD will grow more as the year goes on I know it will specially with him calling the Defense he will be completely removed from "Being a HC" when the defense is on the field.  I really wonder how much time he actually spends with the offense during the week even.