Why Dorsey is not the answer

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I know it will, how often is what I'm curious about and it will be the same site, they are there and he doesn't take them.

 

Not turning this into an anti McDermott comment, but this is what happens when you have a defensive-minded HC vs an offensive-minded one, the offensive guy find success and leaves as an HC. I bring this up not as an argument to fire Sean and to keep Dabs, but it did appear Josh listened to Daboll. I also know our offense had funks with Daboll as well, but this is just feels a lot different.

 

Yeah, tough to get into the "shouldve kept Dabol as HC" argument (which I've made myself) after he was embarassed even worse this weekend.

 

However, I also believe he has a much better demeanor for coaching/handling Josh than Dorsey. Dorsey is too jittery, too frenetic, too always-wanting-to-take-a-deep-shot. Exact opposite of what Josh needs.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

It isn't.

 

Kincaid in the flat - 1st down.

Diggs on the crosser - 1st down. 

 

Tries to fit one in to Davis in double coverage. And again we can talk if we like about the way Davis ran that route... but that get us away from why we lost.

 

That is actually the one turnover he had that I am okay with... I think he was reading high to low and the CB cheated towards Kincaid so he threw the high read to Davis. If Davis had made Whitehead hesitate for even a half second he would have been open. I have seen Allen complete that exact read to Davis a dozen times. Unfortunately Whitehead had an easy read because of the route running and he made a good play on the ball.

 

The other two interceptions were careless and lazy heaves into double coverage. I will live with tight window throws that become interceptions. The random forced throws into double coverage is what Allen needs to clean up. On the fumble his head was out of the game at that point. He let a couple series of bad plays snowball into one more giant mistake.

 

They need to get a coach on the sidelines that is specifically talking to Allen after every failed drive. Last night he's sitting alone with Diggs in his face trying to snap him out of his funk. That is not a recipe conducive to getting his head back in the game.

[Reed83HOF]

16 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Yeah, tough to get into the "shouldve kept Dabol as HC" argument (which I've made myself) after he was embarassed even worse this weekend.

 

However, I also believe he has a much better demeanor for coaching/handling Josh than Dorsey. Dorsey is too jittery, too frenetic, too always-wanting-to-take-a-deep-shot. Exact opposite of what Josh needs.

 

Dorsey and Josh are cut from the same cloth, even Daboll was getting reigned in by Sean at times. I had issues with Daboll’s offense at times too....

 

Firing one coach to keep another rarely works out, but you do lose a lot of continuity on the opposite side of the ball and that appears to be a part of this allen regression. It's not that I'm all on Allen for a bad game, those happen, but as he said same shite different year and that's on him...

 

[jethro_tull]

I thought play calling was disconnected at best.  

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Dorsey and Josh are cut from the same cloth, even Daboll was getting reigned in by Sean at times. I had issues with Daboll’s offense at times too....

 

Firing one coach to keep another rarely works out, but you do lose a lot of continuity on the opposite side of the ball and that appears to be a part of this allen regression. It's not that I'm all on Allen for a bad game, those happen, but as he said same shite different year and that's on him...

 

 

It's easier with hindsight, but the idea of firing McD and Frazier after 13 seconds, promoting Dabol, and bringing in say Jim Schwartz as DC sure looks good right now.

 

Similar to the Falcons, when they should have fired Quinn and promoted Shanahan after the Super Bowl loss.

[vincec]

I thought Dorsey had a mostly legitimate game plan going into this game. The Bills OL was way overmatched, so they had a ton of short, quick throws to Cook, Diggs, Knox, Hardy and Kincaid in the plan, as well as quick hitting runs inside and to the edge. Sprinkle in a few deep balls and try to make a big play or two.

 

The Jets basically just said, “Fine, go ahead. Allen will lose patience with that.” And they were 100% right. Allen played like a rookie. He panicked when the initial read wasn’t there, ran into sacks and hits, and threw ridiculously I’ll advised passes.

 

My main problem with Dorsey is that Allen’s play had been on a steady downward trajectory since Daboll left.

Edited September 12, 2023 by vincec

[Franco_92]

Dorsey isn't flawless or blameless but the game would have been seen as competently scripted if allen had stuck with the script. We would have left with a 20-13 victory or something like it. Hoping that the offense opened up a bit against lesser opponents. 

[Xwnyer]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It was a bad call. 

really?   LOL

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Xwnyer said:

really?   LOL

It happens.

[Xwnyer]

4 hours ago, BillsFan2313 said:

This game was on Josh. He wasn't seeing open guys all night and made some horrible throws when guys were open. 

hence why our receivers rank low on YAC>  so many passes are low or not lead properly to get the YAC guy has to reach low or high and than secure before taking off.  

[Low Positive]

2 hours ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

What I have wanted from day 1 with Allen is the 15 Cam Newton panthers offense. The sickening part is we have that OC on our coaching staff….can we make Mike Shula the OC? 

A team can't install a new offense in week 2.

[whorlnut]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

And then calls a run on 2nd and 15 in OT.

 

Think about that!

I’m not mad about the run itself as much as I am the design. Cook is really good in space…why not a pitch?  Instead, we run right into the belly of their strength. 

[Xwnyer]

4 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

I think it's 90% Josh/10% Dorsey right now.

 

Concerns I have with Josh:

1. Not seeing the field as well as he needs to

2. Too ancy/not trusting the OL (OL does need to play better)

3. Mentally seems out of whack/not sure if this is him being too hard on himself. He just needs to be more confident and take what the defense is giving

4. Running: I think he's got to learn it's OK to run, but needs to protect his body/not take unnecessary hits

 

Dorsey:

1. I'm not a fan of lining up in shotgun 99% of the time: it limits running attack primarily

2. Absolutely need more playaction/roll outs

3. Screen game and creativity in general is severely lacking

4. Running game: I'm not a 50/50 advocate, but we do need alot more balance.  Especially helps the dline from just teeing off.  

 

Dorseys tendencies are basically the same issues I had with Daboll.  Daboll was more creative/did adjust 2nd half of 2021 into the playoffs.

 

Again alot of blame on Josh, but he's our entire offense.  Feel like taking a bit off his plate, could be beneficial in alot of ways.  Right now, it just seems like alot of mental stuff-and reverting back to feeling like he has to carry the offense.  Dorsey needs to be find that "balance", because it's not working against top tier defenses.

 

Daboll used fake sweeps and more motion.  Dorsey uses Motion to move a guy from one side to other not to do like Miami does with timing the motion and take off with the snap

[DrDawkinstein]

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

And then calls a run on 2nd and 15 in OT.

 

Think about that!

 

Not just a run. A draw.

 

And not just any draw. A shotgun draw.

 

A run that starts 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage, and has the QB turn and hand the ball to a RB who is STANDING STILL.

 

 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

2 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

A team can't install a new offense in week 2.

You don’t need to install an entirely new offense but maybe a different guy can figure out which plays and formations to call within the structure of what we already have. Like Mike Shula. Who is here already 

[Brand J]

I find it comical the QB could play that bad - with open options we’re all seeing - and some of the complaints here are Dorsey, Dorsey, Dorsey. It’s Josh Allen, Josh Allen, Josh Allen. That’s why we lost, not Ken Dorsey. Any coordinator would be handcuffed if his starting QB plays that way, especially against a good defense. There aren’t any other easy layups Dorsey wasn’t utilizing because the layups the Jets were giving you, Josh wasn’t taking. 

[Xwnyer]

4 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

I’m not mad about the run itself as much as I am the design. Cook is really good in space…why not a pitch?  Instead, we run right into the belly of their strength. 

plus handoffs to a rb that is standing still probably are less effective than one where rb is moving when haded the ball.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:

I find it comical the QB could play that bad - with open options we’re all seeing - and some of the complaints here are Dorsey, Dorsey, Dorsey. It’s Josh Allen, Josh Allen, Josh Allen. That’s why we lost, not Ken Dorsey. Any coordinator would be handcuffed if his starting QB plays that way, especially against a good defense. There aren’t any other easy layups Dorsey wasn’t utilizing because the layups the Jets were giving you, Josh wasn’t taking. 

 

Hey, I have enough Bills fan experience to be able to complain about BOTH independently. Thank you very much!

 

And I also realize that, even with Josh's issues, given the way the League and Contracts are setup, Josh will likely out-live Dorsey, McD, and even Beane on the Bills roster.

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

And I also realize that, even with Josh's issues, given the way the League and Contracts are setup, Josh will likely out-live Dorsey, McD, and even Beane on the Bills roster.

No doubt about that. But if the Bills want to be a Super Bowl team Josh has to be the reason for winning the big game, not a liability like he was last night. He’s a 6 year pro bowl QB who just made the cover of Madden. Wake up, Josh! The whole non-Bills nation is laughing at you this morning.
It was far more Josh Allen and his faults than it was Ken Dorsey. 

[HappyDays]

Everybody is correct that Allen is much more to blame than Dorsey for last night's performance.

 

But, for argument's sake let's say we see more abysmal performances like last night. We simply can't move on from Josh Allen. So the only alternative is move on from Dorsey and bring on a hard a** OC that can hopefully scream some sense into Allen. Dorsey isn't some offensive savant. If he can't get through to Allen we shouldn't lose any sleep if we have to move on from him.

 

This is more a conversation for the end of the year, but if things continue heading in a poor direction then I agree Dorsey will have to be the sacrificial lamb.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Everybody is correct that Allen is much more to blame than Dorsey for last night's performance.

 

But, for argument's sake let's say we see more abysmal performances like last night. We simply can't move on from Josh Allen. So the only alternative is move on from Dorsey and bring on a hard a** OC that can hopefully scream some sense into Allen. Dorsey isn't some offensive savant. If he can't get through to Allen we shouldn't lose any sleep if we have to move on from him.

 

This is more a conversation for the end of the year, but if things continue heading in a poor direction then I agree Dorsey will have to be the sacrificial lamb.

I think Allen likes Dorsey and there’s the rub. Allen is calling the shots in the organization, same way Rodgers was doing in GB. Except Rodgers had the hardware.

[Peter]

5 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Some eye-opening numbers from last night:

 

The Bills held the lead for 37 minutes and 18 seconds of regulation.

 

The Jets held the lead for 1 minute and 46 seconds of regulation.

 

The score was tied for 20 minutes and 56 seconds of regulation.

 

Josh Allen dropped back 46 times (41 attempts; 5 sacks) and ran it another six times (half of which were scrambles if I recall correctly). The Bills' running backs ran it 16 times. 

 

Think about that.

 

Dorsey threw three picks, fumbled, could not block or stop the run . . . oh, wait, that was not him.

 

 

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I think Allen likes Dorsey and there’s the rub. Allen is calling the shots in the organization, same way Rodgers was doing in GB. Except Rodgers had the hardware.

 

Yeah there's a difference between a play caller and a coach. Like I criticized Daboll's play calling as much as anyone but he had a great relationship with Allen. Not a buddy buddy kind of relationship, a true coach/student relationship. The best two games Allen ever played were the last two games that Daboll was his coach. With Dorsey it has gone the opposite direction - a great first month and after that Allen suddenly started making rookie mistakes and has never gotten fully back on track. Might be time to wonder if Dorsey is the right coach to rein him in.

[BillMafia716ix]

It pissses me off we still don’t run the football when we are playing with a lead. We signed Damien Harris and Murray for a reason and they didn’t play enough snaps. One carry for Damien Harris?? James Cook is not the type of RB you want running in between the tackles. Ken Dorsey has no idea how to use his personnel and it’s frustrating!! 

[RoyBatty is alive]

5 hours ago, Dillenger4 said:

Because he called a brutal game. Calling runs up the middle with a smurf back like Cook is insane vs a D like the Jets. Then, we put Harris and Murray in for a quick rep and bingo - the run works. But nooo, we go back to Cook and forcefully feed him the ball up the middle.

When things start working Dorsey always calls it the opposite. Hes brutal.

But Josh Allen has no culpability, no blame at all.  Do i have that right?

[RoyBatty is alive]

3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Because all we needed was 17 points in regulation, and instead had stalled drive after stalled drive after stalled drive.

 

The 2nd INT should never had happened because no such play should have been called. We were slowly pounding and dinking the ball down the field. Keep at that. Grind it out.

 

But Josh/Dorsey just cant help themselves but to take those bad deep shots.

 

ONE field goal in the 3rd quarter and we win the game.

I can half agree and If in fact Dorsey called the deep shots then yes he deserves some blame but you and I dont really know what plays calls were called from Dorsey and how many were Josh playing hero ball.    Why people cant accept the reality that J Allen blew that game is beyond me, keep looking for Dorsey as a scapegoat..

[NoSaint]

57 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I find it comical the QB could play that bad - with open options we’re all seeing - and some of the complaints here are Dorsey, Dorsey, Dorsey. It’s Josh Allen, Josh Allen, Josh Allen. That’s why we lost, not Ken Dorsey. Any coordinator would be handcuffed if his starting QB plays that way, especially against a good defense. There aren’t any other easy layups Dorsey wasn’t utilizing because the layups the Jets were giving you, Josh wasn’t taking. 

who is coaching this all pro qb? Could that person be part of the regression?

5 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

I can half agree and If in fact Dorsey called the deep shots then yes he deserves some blame but you and I dont really know what plays calls were called from Dorsey and how many were Josh playing hero ball.    Why people cant accept the reality that J Allen blew that game is beyond me, keep looking for Dorsey as a scapegoat..

either Josh thinks he can ignore coaching which is a player and coach issue

 

or he has regressed in decision making which is usually both a player and coach issue (especially with it coinciding with Dorsey’s tenure)

 

or Dorsey just sucks which is a coach issue. 
 

josh isn’t a fringe player in the league that can fail regardless of the best coaching. When elite talents regress usually it’s either injury or a systematic issue (play calling, communication, support in general)

[Brand J]

22 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah there's a difference between a play caller and a coach. Like I criticized Daboll's play calling as much as anyone but he had a great relationship with Allen. Not a buddy buddy kind of relationship, a true coach/student relationship. The best two games Allen ever played were the last two games that Daboll was his coach. With Dorsey it has gone the opposite direction - a great first month and after that Allen suddenly started making rookie mistakes and has never gotten fully back on track. Might be time to wonder if Dorsey is the right coach to rein him in.

 

6 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

who is coaching this all pro qb? Could that person be part of the regression?

either Josh thinks he can ignore coaching which is a player and coach issue

 

or he has regressed in decision making which is usually both a player and coach issue (especially with it coinciding with Dorsey’s tenure)

 

or Dorsey just sucks which is a coach issue. 
 

josh isn’t a fringe player in the league that can fail regardless of the best coaching. When elite talents regress usually it’s either injury or a systematic issue (play calling, communication, support in general)

On coaching, if Dorsey is thrown out McD might as well follow. We saw with our own eyes McD pointing to his head “be smart” as Josh decided to truck defenders for one yard rather than get out of bounds. If Dorsey can’t get through to him, if McD can’t get through to him, then it’s time to move on from both… BUT Josh would then be labeled a “coach killer” until he changed his ways. Maybe a disciplinarian or intimidating coach like Parcells is the only way, but those coaches have to have hardware to pull off that style in today’s NFL. And we’re not getting a SB winning head coach in here. Bienemy as a HC would quickly lose his players because he doesn’t have the hardware to back his hard-nosed coaching style. Commanders were already complaining about him as coordinator.

[billsbackto81]

My problem with Dorsey mainly is the fact that he's already seen this exact Defense 2X already last season and still hasn't found a way to execute plays and sustain drives. I know it's a Top Defense but if you're supposedly a competent OC you should be able to draw up a productive scheme, especially against Zach freaking Wilson who has bent you over 2x already. 

[DrDawkinstein]

26 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

I can half agree and If in fact Dorsey called the deep shots then yes he deserves some blame but you and I dont really know what plays calls were called from Dorsey and how many were Josh playing hero ball.    Why people cant accept the reality that J Allen blew that game is beyond me, keep looking for Dorsey as a scapegoat..

 

Allen blew the game. Of course. You definitely havent seen me argue otherwise.

 

I dont think many (any) posters are putting it ALL on Dorsey. But there are plenty of issues to go around.

 

Whether he called the deep shots or not. Or it's just his scheme that triggers Josh on certain looks to try those deep shots. Or Dorsey not downshifting into a running game in the 4th. Or for running a shotgun draw on 2nd and 15 in OT.

[dave mcbride]

48 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

Dorsey threw three picks, fumbled, could not block or stop the run . . . oh, wait, that was not him.

 

 

Not my point, but whatever. I've said multiple times that Allen was terrible and blew the game. But more than one thing can be wrong with an offense.

[BillsUberAlles]

6 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Yes thought about it. 
 

dorsey had a heck of a game plan for that defense. All Josh needed to do was take the open player. He didn’t. 
 

that is an often thing with him and will get put in the OC. 
 

just like it did with Daboll and now it is with Dorsey. I think people need to start putting a lot of the blame on the shoulders of 17 where it belongs 

 

Allen has to start becoming OK with winning games ugly sometimes and not needing to blow teams out.

 

There is no reason this game should have been lost. Sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done to win the game and then go back to crushing teams next week.

 

Same issue as to when we almost lost to the Dolphins in the playoffs...Allen trying to crush them is what led to all the turnovers. It's one thing to go for the jugular. It's another to constantly try and force big plays instead of taking what's available.

[NoSaint]

55 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

 

On coaching, if Dorsey is thrown out McD might as well follow. We saw with our own eyes McD pointing to his head “be smart” as Josh decided to truck defenders for one yard rather than get out of bounds. If Dorsey can’t get through to him, if McD can’t get through to him, then it’s time to move on from both… BUT Josh would then be labeled a “coach killer” until he changed his ways. Maybe a disciplinarian or intimidating coach like Parcells is the only way, but those coaches have to have hardware to pull off that style in today’s NFL. And we’re not getting a SB winning head coach in here. Bienemy as a HC would quickly lose his players because he doesn’t have the hardware to back his hard-nosed coaching style. Commanders were already complaining about him as coordinator.

or maybe just a successful offensive coach with or without hardware would resonate, and also effectively build the unit/scheme/culture in the offensive room

[Brand J]

9 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

or maybe just a successful offensive coach with or without hardware would resonate, and also effectively build the unit/scheme/culture in the offensive room

Josh had the same issues with Daboll that he has with Dorsey. Too many of you think we could just change the coordinator and everything would be different. It comes down to Allen protecting the football more than anything - not the men standing on the sidelines or calling plays from the booth. They can give him direction, he has to take it. They can preach about the same issues until they’re blue in the face, he has to implement them. Seriously and I don’t mean this as a jab to you, but what offensive coach is coming in here and changing the unit/scheme/culture AND reducing Allen’s penchant for turnovers? Name this magical person. 

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Josh had the same issues with Daboll that he has with Dorsey. Too many of you think we could just change the coordinator and everything would be different. It comes down to Allen protecting the football more than anything - not the men standing on the sidelines or calling plays from the booth. They can give him direction, he has to take it. They can preach about the same issues until they’re blue in the face, he has to implement them. Seriously and I don’t mean this as a jab to you, but what offensive coach is coming in here and changing the unit/scheme/culture AND reducing Allen’s penchant for turnovers? Name this magical person. 

Last year was his highest INT percentage since his rookie year 

 

last year was also his most fumbles since his sophomore year 

 

he went seasons before a red zone int which became a major issue last year. 
 

dion dawkins never ate great but ballooning to 370 was a big issue. Josh has always played fast and loose, but it’s abnormally bad at the moment 

[Dillenger4]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

But Josh Allen has no culpability, no blame at all.  Do i have that right?

who said that? Why would you assume such a thing? You do not have that right. You, are a troll

[AKC]

7 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Some eye-opening numbers from last night:

 

The Bills held the lead for 37 minutes and 18 seconds of regulation.

 

The Jets held the lead for 1 minute and 46 seconds of regulation.

 

The score was tied for 20 minutes and 56 seconds of regulation.

 

Josh Allen dropped back 46 times (41 attempts; 5 sacks) and ran it another six times (half of which were scrambles if I recall correctly). The Bills' running backs ran it 16 times. 

 

Think about that.

Dorsey has a responsibility to convince his QB to believe in the gameplan. Seems he rarely gets a buy in from Josh. My reaction watching the game was “why isn’t Dorsey getting Josh under center where he won’t freelance as much” but that would mean your practices leading into the game included a decent number of plays under center. The reality is surely that during practice the past week Dorsey had Josh in shotgun for most or all of the Jets plan. And that’s for sure on Dorsey- you need to harness in the QB you get him up to the LOS. 

[TheFunPolice]

the 2nd and 15 run in OT is just inexcusable

 

Put yourself in the other team's shoes... you're in OT against a Mahomes, Allen, Tua type QB and offense. It's 2nd and 15. What would you LOVE to see?

 

A run up the middle with a tiny little RB who will just fall over on contact!

 

That tells you just how terrible that decision was. 

[Buffalo716]

I'm willing to give everybody on the bills more time

 

I've always been a coach's guy... Being a former player and Coach I know how important a good coach is

 

But I have been adamant here that I don't know if Dorsey is the guy.. and I've been ridiculed

 

But Josh Allen and the bills could do a lot better

 

I literally wanted to punch a hole in my wall on that second and 15 draw

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I think Diggs and Allen need 20 targets a game. 

 

Honestly, because the rest of the Bills pass catchers are absolute garbage.