Training camp 7/27 9:45 AM

[Patrick Duffy]

38 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think Elam very much improved, yes. 

 

But keep in mind that Benford was on IR starting in Game 12 and then inactive the rest of the season

 

Two things can be true:

the Bills (and fans) can believe that Elam improved the last few games of the season

AND

the Bills can also believe that especially in zone coverage, Jackson and then Benford are still the better players at this point.

 

Yes of course,  not sure if you were necessarily directing that to me or just mentioning for general purposes, but I didn't say anything about or even implied regarding Benford. 

 

To be clear though I do agree with you, however my question was simply if the poster I quoted did or did not feel Elam's play improved those last games of the season 

[YattaOkasan]

45 minutes ago, BananaB said:

You do realize at one point last season we had a CB rotation last year. When have you ever seen that in the NFL? Just put the kid on the field and let him play, stop ***** babying him ffs. If he don’t got it we’ll know shortly. One thing we do know is Dane doesn’t have it. 

It makes no sense at this point. 

CB rotations, while not common, are a McD staple.  Gaines, Johnson, Norman all rotated with Levi if i remember correctly.  That said I would like to see more Elam, I agree with many others that he has shown more when out there.  I dont know what it is but Dane is fine and would be a starting CB for many teams in the league.  

[fergie's ire]

48 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

Dane Jackson is ideally a key back up, one way to keep him engaged and bought in, is to give him first opportunity to win the starting job 

Exactly.  Dane and Benford have outperformed their perceived ability which probably says a lot about their work ethic.  Do you want to keep them engaged and reward them by giving them a start against Cincinnati or KC?  Instead, give them the start in training camp to make it clear they are valued even if you don't want to have to rely on either as CB1 which we did, at times, last year.

[HappyDays]

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

6 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Sherfield is going to look really good in gym shorts… until the pads and games start and he’ll go back to being a JAG… cross fingers for Kincaid to take off running and one of Shakir/Harty to emerge/stay healthy. 

Guy

 

is there any alternate universe where you're not already hating on the team months before the season starts

 

[JerseyBills]

3 hours ago, Process said:

Sounds like Dorsey is getting creative and introducing a lot of new concepts and formations. Encouraging. Hopefully it translates to game days.

 

 

This is what I been wanting.  We need those easy 5 -7 yards . Josh will have 2 3 quick reads and most likely 1 will be open

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

this “screen work” is going to die in training camp, like it does every year. 

 

Lord, I hope not.  Didn't the Panthers with Mike Shula used to run some good screens?

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

Dane Jackson is ideally a key back up, one way to keep him engaged and bought in, is to give him first opportunity to win the starting job 

Oh, give me a break. Last year Dane was a bigger liability on third down then Ryan Gosling in Remember the Titans

[Warcodered]

 

 

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, Warcodered said:

 

We’re people really complaining about his diet before camp. Josh looks like he’s in phenomenal shape.

[Clyde Smith]

7 hours ago, Warcodered said:

 

Confucius said: If your feet dirty your ass dirty.

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, BeavercreekBillsFan said:

This. Too many AJE, Basham, Bernard, Elam type picks to continue to remain viable in the AFC where everyone else at the top is nailing their draft picks. Elam is clearly better and should be getting the reps. He could form that dynamic duo with Tre. Instead we think Dane will be able to hang with the #2 WRs on the other teams? Yeah right. Beane has hit on some nice picks but we are going to look back and wonder what if when it comes to this era of bills football. We can’t keep lighting 3rd round picks on fire like they don’t matter. We can’t keep putting Spencer brown out there thinking josh won’t get murdered again all year while the bengals and chiefs make the right moves. 

It’s day two
Of training camp

[John from Riverside]

6 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Agree he is a “rosterable” player… not really saying much considering the team needed much more than that at the position.

Scott, I realize this is the thing that you like to do this time of year
 

But can you please take a moment to reflect that this was a 13 and three team last year with a top five Offense can you please stop talking about them like they’re the Bears

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Scott, I realize this is the thing that you like to do this time of year
 

But can you please take a moment to reflect that this was a 13 and three team last year with a top five Offense can you please stop talking about them like they’re the Bears

But who will point out that there's a gray cloud to every silver lining?

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, whorlnut said:

Then why did the bills move up to get Elam in a CB rich draft?  If they knew his man coverage experience didn’t translate to our zone heavy looks, then what gives?  I think they were smitten by his notebook and saw him as a student of the game and so far it hasn’t panned out. Elam has elite traits, and I think that’s what has shown up on game days to help mask his deficiencies. The bills seemed to have bet on Elam learning our scheme and it may have been a slight overlook. 

They moved up because their #2 corner had lousy man skills, and you can't play zone all the time.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, whorlnut said:

New Era basically said it in another post. We have no idea what is going on in the film room or practice field. I honestly think elams elite traits make up for lack of scheme knowledge. He’s obviously not where the staff wants him to be at this point or we wouldn’t be having these conversations. 

In McDermott’s world, NOTHING makes up for lack of scheme knowledge.

[boyst]

2 hours ago, BananaB said:

You do realize at one point last season we had a CB rotation last year. When have you ever seen that in the NFL? Just put the kid on the field and let him play, stop ***** babying him ffs. If he don’t got it we’ll know shortly. One thing we do know is Dane doesn’t have it. 

It makes no sense at this point. 

There's one thing that I do trust McDermott on, and that is defensive back talent.  So I'm sure ist justified 

[BananaB]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

There's one thing that I do trust McDermott on, and that is defensive back talent.  So I'm sure ist justified 

If that’s the one thing we can trust McD on you think spending a first round pick on CB who could crack the starting lineup would be pretty easy. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[JohnBonhamRocks]

11 minutes ago, BananaB said:

If that’s the one thing we can trust McD on you think spending a first round pick on CB who could crack the starting lineup would be pretty easy. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Flip side of that coin is I don’t want my coach playing a guy based on where he was drafted. If our top 3 CBs at camp end up Ja’Marcus Ingram, Cameron Dantzler, and Alex Austin, then that’s who I want on the field. Not just names for sake of names. 

[purple haze]

8 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Maybe Benford is just the real deal.  
 

I still believe it’s the tackling that separates him from Elam - at the moment.  
 

But it’s possible he’s just a better corner.   

Elam did some good things when he played last season.  I think they have two good, young CB’s.    Benford playing safety in college definitely shows up in how he attacks the run.

[BananaB]

56 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Flip side of that coin is I don’t want my coach playing a guy based on where he was drafted. If our top 3 CBs at camp end up Ja’Marcus Ingram, Cameron Dantzler, and Alex Austin, then that’s who I want on the field. Not just names for sake of names. 

 Dane sucked last year, Elam outplayed him. This is your coach giving the veteran player the benefit of the doubt and McD has done it time and time again. Want to know why our rookies hardly make an impact, because they are in and out of the lineup like ***** yo-yos. When McD took over he had to play the young players and now they are the backbone of our team, the past few years he’s been babying these guys for mediocre vets. Dane and Elam are just another example of that. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by BananaB

[Manther]

9 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

He’s been a JAG the entirety of his career… why all of a sudden will that change now? 
 

All good though. People fall for this stuff every May/June/July/August and reality hits in September.

I think he will be a good 3/4/5 WR.  That would be more than a JAG

[whorlnut]

4 hours ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

So you didn't answer the question that doesn't pertain to any of those things you mentioned above. Did you or did you not see his play on the field improve the last stretch of the season?

 

But I'll respond to your statement anyway, so no disrespect intended here, you kinda contradicted yourself a bit....you said "we have no idea any details in film room, practice etc" ...although you seem to be suggesting he has a lack of scheme knowledge and he's not where the staff wants etc. 

 

You can't say nobody knows what goes on in the film room etc and then follow it up with him having a lack of knowledge in the film room and how staff feels about where he's at...

 

 

You are literally arguing to argue.  The staff obviously hasn’t seen enough at this point or we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

[Beck Water]

One reason I love reading different reports during training camp is because different guys see different things.

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2023/07/bills-offense-josh-allen-heat-up-on-rainy-day-2-of-camp-rookie-lineman-passes-early-test-observations.html

 

Case in point:

A number of reporters commented on Shakir deflecting a ball which was picked.  Matt Parrino saw it differently:

Quote

7. Cam Lewis makes a splash

During 7-on-7 early in practice, Lewis made one of the best plays of the day against the first-team offense. Allen was targeting Shakir, but Lewis came flying in at the catch point and tipped the ball up into the air to himself for the interception. Lewis is a bit of the forgotten man in the Bills’ secondary battles. He can play safety, boundary cornerback, and in the slot. He’s an ultra-competitive defensive back and a name to watch as a sleeper for the 53-man roster.

 

[John from Riverside]

The Elam thing is a puzzling one
 

We’re not dealing with a player that can’t play. He is actually shown whenever he got on the field that he can’t make plays and has every physical attribute in order to be a good player.

 

Two things

 

I think Binford is just really good

 

I don’t believe the DaneJackson is going to hold onto that number to spot as soon as he starts getting beat McDermott will make the switch

 

This is what is nice about having that extra year on a first round draft pick

[JohnBonhamRocks]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

 Dane sucked last year, Elam outplayed him. This is your coach giving the veteran player the benefit of the doubt and McD has done it time and time again. Want to know why our rookies hardly make an impact, because they are in and out of the lineup like ***** yo-yos. When McD took over he had to play the young players and now they are the backbone of our team, the past few years he’s been babying these guys for mediocre vets. Dane and Elam are just another example of that. 

Fair points. Maybe it’s a light a fire under Elam tactic? I think they do really like Jackson though - he’s started 22 games the last 3 seasons. FWIW, which may be zilch, they graded about evenly per PFF. 

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

One reason I love reading different reports during training camp is because different guys see different things.

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2023/07/bills-offense-josh-allen-heat-up-on-rainy-day-2-of-camp-rookie-lineman-passes-early-test-observations.html

 

Case in point:

A number of reporters commented on Shakir deflecting a ball which was picked.  Matt Parrino saw it differently:

 

In other words it was essentially a jump ball and Lewis beat Shakir on it. Not good for Shakir. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

 Dane sucked last year, Elam outplayed him. This is your coach giving the veteran player the benefit of the doubt and McD has done it time and time again. Want to know why our rookies hardly make an impact, because they are in and out of the lineup like ***** yo-yos. When McD took over he had to play the young players and now they are the backbone of our team, the past few years he’s been babying these guys for mediocre vets. Dane and Elam are just another example of that. 

This shows a significant lack of understanding.   It's day two of training camp, and Torrence, a rookie, was starting with the ones.  Edmunds started from day 1.  Your characterization of McDermott is simply incorrect.  

 

And I continue to say that complaints about Dane are evidence that people don't understand the defense.  Somebody posted data a month ago or so showing Sauce Gardiner gave less separation than any corner in the league in man and in zone.  Dane gave up a lot of separation in zone and was middle of the pack in man.  Why did Gardiner give up less separation in zone than Dane?   Because he didn't know how to play the defense.   In zone, you're supposed to leave your man as you read the keys.   Sticking by you man when the play is going the other way is a bad move. 

 

Dane knows what he's doing, which is why he's on the field, and Elam hasn't learned that yet.   I hope he does, because he has talent. 

 

And for those who say Elam outplayed Benford, I don't what you were watching.  Benford was clearly better until he got injured.  He was better because like Dane, he understood his role in the defense.  

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

In other words it was essentially a jump ball and Lewis beat Shakir on it. Not good for Shakir. 

 

That's not the picture I get from those words but, whatever

[Airseven]

6 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Why draft Elam so high if performance, work ethic, personality were issues? 

I’m indebted if you can find that answer.

[SCBills]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

 

Two things

 

I think Binford is just really good

 

 

This is what is nice about having that extra year on a first round draft pick

Agreed on Benford.  He may just be a very good player that was overlooked at a small school. 
 

Ehh… That 5th year option is still expensive when your QB is making 45M+

 

Year 2 for McDuffie in KC.  He’s starting.  They’re hoping to get above average production from him with 3 years before they have to pay him or let him walk. 
 

Year 2 for Elam in Buffalo.  Camp battle with a guy who is “solid” and here on a one year deal. 
 

It’s early.  Let’s see how it plays out.  But rookies need to produce early for us moving forward .. not in year 4 right before we have to make a cap decision on them. 

[HappyDays]

 

[78thealltimegreat]

10 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

That's not the picture I get from those words but, whatever

I did 

[Bills!Win!]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

Yes, I do realize. You do realize it’s day 2 of training camp right?

 

again- do you.  Same **** different day

200 pages of OBJ and Hopkins has now turned into this

[Mat68]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

The Elam thing is a puzzling one
 

We’re not dealing with a player that can’t play. He is actually shown whenever he got on the field that he can’t make plays and has every physical attribute in order to be a good player.

 

Two things

 

I think Binford is just really good

 

I don’t believe the DaneJackson is going to hold onto that number to spot as soon as he starts getting beat McDermott will make the switch

 

This is what is nice about having that extra year on a first round draft pick

Seems like a trust issue with him.  He doesnt separate himself during practice but has made plays in game.  Interesting dynamic to watch. 

[JoeF]

10 hours ago, Augie said:

You can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning...

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

This is what I been wanting.  We need those easy 5 -7 yards . Josh will have 2 3 quick reads and most likely 1 will be open

As my thinking has evolved during the off-season, I've come around to what you're saying. 

 

It's heresy around here, I know, but I think the problem with the offense is not the weapons surrounding Josh, it's Josh.  In particular, it's Josh's completion percentage. 

 

What makes for consistently good offense is getting positive yardage on every play.   0 yards on a play is bad, negative yards is worse.  Josh has used the wrong thought process up until now.    If you have a 60% chance of completing a pass for 20 yards, one would think that's a better option than the 90% chance for 10 yards, because on average you get 12 yards out of the 60% play and only 9 yards out of the 90% play, but I don't think that thinking is correct.    The consequences of getting 0 yards on 40% of the longer throw is much worse than the extra yards gained on the 60%.   It's better to get positive yardage virtually all the time, even if that positive yardage is less than you'd get on the longer throw.   0 yards on a play is a bad outcome. 

 

Josh needs an offense that gives him 2-3 quick reads for 5-7 yards, and he needs to take them.  Save the downfield throws for the times when the chances of completing them are 80%, not 60%.   The rest of the time, take the easy throw.  

 

Josh is 37 on the career completion percentage list, behind about 15 current QBs, including Burrow, Mahomes, Herbert, and Rodgers, to name a few.  Retired names ahead of him included Peyton and Brees, Big Ben and Tom Brady, Steve Young and Kurt Warner.  

 

Josh doesn't complete enough passes, period.  He has the best arm in the league, maybe even in the history of the league, but to date he hasn't had the best head.   He needs to take and complete the easy throws.  

 

 

 

 

[John from Riverside]

7 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Allen is still Allen. They aren’t the Bears... I hope they are the Chiefs considering the standard at this point is getting to the SB right? 

Allen is  superman, no doubt about it, but he cannot do it all by himself to say that he does everything by himself is just folly

Edited July 28, 2023 by John from Riverside

[SWATeam]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I won’t repeat myself. 

🤣🤣🤣

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Fair points. Maybe it’s a light a fire under Elam tactic? I think they do really like Jackson though - he’s started 22 games the last 3 seasons. FWIW, which may be zilch, they graded about evenly per PFF. 

I hear you, but only one of those two guys had three picks last season, and that is called being a play maker, exactly what a team needs on the field, jmo.