Top 10 offensive coordinators as per PFF

[Richard Noggin]

The issue with that blanket tactic of "throw a 1:1 sideline 9-route" on heavy pressure 3rd-and-shorts is not that it's completely misguided, as it was the right read given the play calls and the defensive attacks...it's that Dorsey seemed not to anticipate such heavy pressure schemes and therefore design in and correctly time some comebacks, outs, digs, slants and crossers as pressure man-beaters. He, like Daboll before him, seemed to be stuck on a specific and rigid plan even when it didn't always match the moment. 

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, DJB said:

 

 

What a random list. Todd Monken? Really? Based on his NFL track record? Nah.

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

There weren't as many wtf calls/sequences with Dorsey compared to Daboll.  Daboll's in game adjustments were better though and they played some of their strongest ball in the playoffs.

 

Daboll's offense had higher highs. And more WTF moments. Dorsey's was more stable if that is the right word, but definitely less creative.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

We hate our coaches so much but that’s because we’re basically only rating them on an elite scale. Compared to the rest of the league our coaching staff is very good.

If we had to watch every offensive and defensive snap for every team we would appreciate our coaches more.

 

Dorsey is also a difficult grade because of the Allen injury. A lot of the offense was thrown out due to the pain Allen played with.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Why did you expect him to make an overhaul and fix things that were not broken? That would have been the exact opposite of what he should have tried in his first year. 
 

year two would be a year to make more noticeable tweaks if any are needed. 

All I'm saying is that if there's no material improvement in the offense he took over, how can you tell if he is a great coordinator?  Nothing changed. 

 

It's like saying you have a great auto mechanic when all he did was an oil change.  Maybe he's great, maybe he isn't. You cant tell from what he's done. 

 

The one piece of evidence we have is that in the last quarter of the season and in the playoffs the offense wasn't particularly good.  How does that make him top 10?

[brianthomas]

11 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Did we forget that PFF is crap?

apparently! In fairness it is a long off season lol

[Draconator]

Jim Bob Cooter sounds like he had 25 kids and a reality TV show

[gjv]

I would say if your team is second in scoring and second in total yards/game in the NFL, it would be a gross omission for an OC not to be in the top 10 of all OC's no matter the circumstances.

[BADOLBILZ]

43 minutes ago, Draconator said:

Jim Bob Cooter sounds like he had 25 kids and a reality TV show

 

 

Joe Bob says hold my Big Gulp

[PrimeTime101]

12 hours ago, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

They were #2 in yards per game and points per game in the entire league. What would Dorsey have had to accomplish to get some credit from you?  

I feel like our team is built to absolutely destroy every team that is below the level of great. Then when we play the highest tier great teams we struggle to do much of anything. On both sides of the ball. This got proven in both OC tenure.  It is the same door that opened the same way the year before. But now there is a squeak to it. 

 

Here is my problem. On Offense, you use the same scheme from the year before accept you do not have a guy opening up fast underneath. Beasley lost some steps and you did not have Smoke running deep routs scaring anyone any more. The field was not as open any more... and I blame not Dorsey on much of this but on the GM/HC for not doing nearly enough help on the offensive line to justify not having the talent on the WR's team. That is the "squeaky door" I am referring to. Now we have a new playbook. Better Line. Dalton Kincaid who we all hope he ends up as good as we think he will be.

 

For me? The book has not been written enough to put Dorsey on that top 10 pedestal. You can thank the points per game for the dude we got named Josh Allen. There was nothing creative about what we ran last year. 

 

I feel like I am reading a short 150 page novel and I am only 25 pages in. too soon. 

 

[Shaw66]

49 minutes ago, gjv said:

I would say if your team is second in scoring and second in total yards/game in the NFL, it would be a gross omission for an OC not to be in the top 10 of all OC's no matter the circumstances.

Sure, but that way the list is not top 10 coordinators.  It's coordinators of top 10 offenses.  

[Fleezoid]

2 hours ago, Draconator said:

Jim Bob Cooter sounds like he had 25 kids and a reality TV show

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

14 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Cool, so all the same complaints we had with Daboll (fans have selective memory about).

 

Dorsey had less talent at Wr and OL, also a less than 100% QB for a good part of the 2nd half of season.

 

Obviously Josh is awesome, but that doesn't discount that Dorsey did more in Year 1 (with less talent), than Dabs did previously and fans are now enamored with.

 

Josh was a turnover machine in the redzone, led the NFL.  That's partially playcalling, but mostly Josh decision making and lack of execution.  

 

Also tough to have a consistent run game with our OL the past few years.

Yes very similar complaints which makes sense since Dorsey is just calling plays in a Daboll designed offense.

The poster asked what Dorsey needed to improve on. 

I listed several things. Do you disagree?

 

I was very encouraged last season when they signed Howard and it looked like they were going to retool the offense. Then that didn't happen.  If Dorsey and McD can't figure out how to use Knox and Kincaid on the field together then they will struggle.

Honestly with all the new pieces I would not be surprised if they struggle early. Hopefully they get better during the season. They regressed during the season last year. Of course some of that was Allen injury and the oline getting worse throughout the year.

On paper this should be a top 3 offense and be able to score via run, short pass, and big play. 

 

[MasterStrategist]

55 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Yes very similar complaints which makes sense since Dorsey is just calling plays in a Daboll designed offense.

The poster asked what Dorsey needed to improve on. 

I listed several things. Do you disagree?

 

I was very encouraged last season when they signed Howard and it looked like they were going to retool the offense. Then that didn't happen.  If Dorsey and McD can't figure out how to use Knox and Kincaid on the field together then they will struggle.

Honestly with all the new pieces I would not be surprised if they struggle early. Hopefully they get better during the season. They regressed during the season last year. Of course some of that was Allen injury and the oline getting worse throughout the year.

On paper this should be a top 3 offense and be able to score via run, short pass, and big play. 

 

Yes, I disagree with pinning your list on Dorsey.

 

Here was your list:

1. Develop more consistent rushing attack

2. Not rely on Allen to bail him out

3. Decrease Allen's turnovers

4. Convert more 3rd and shorts

5. Play better in redzone

 

Our lack of talent and inconsistent OL play doomed #1, and contributed to #5.  Saffold, was extremely inconsistent and not very good when he was on.  Bates is better suited as a backup, albeit he's a average guard/could start for teams with a better RT.  Spencer Brown started the year horribly (back injury recovery), finished better but often needed "help" in pass pro.

 

Allen's injury didn't help, but Josh also made some poor decisions (especially in redzone), leading the league in turnovers inside the 20.  

 

#4 (3rd and short), here are some stats contradicting your statement:

1. 59% conversion rate in 2021 vs 69% in 2022 (3rd and less than 3).  Chiefs, for comparison, 52% in 2022

 

For #5 (redzone):

1. Mentioned Josh poor decision making above

2. Stats: we went from #1 in 2021 to #9 in thr NFL for 2022.  Partly Josh, partly inconsistent OL, and partly lack of consistent alot WR (McKenzie was horrible and a trick player at best in redzone).

3. Dorsey could get more creative, as Dabs had that going for him.  But I think other issues, stated above, contributed more

 

Bottom line, I'm a strong believer that our OL and poor slot play led to most of our offense inconsistent games.  If we're mentioning Dorsey improving, I think Josh can be used in the same sentence (decision making).  I think all of the above will be better in 2023.

 

As for Howard LY, he was a name-only/shell of former self.  His Achilles injury derailed his career.  

 

Regarding use of Kincaid/Knox together, that will be easy.. I expect Dalton will be moved around and less in-line (ie: primarily slot).  Bigger question is when Knox comes off the field, do they move Dalton in-line (Knoxs role) OR does Quentin  come on the field?  I expect the latter, and they don't put too much on Daltons plate immediately

 

[gjv]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Sure, but that way the list is not top 10 coordinators.  It's coordinators of top 10 offenses.  

I think you are splitting hairs. What criteria would you use to rate the OC's in 2022?

[billsfan89]

I give Dorsey an incomplete for his 2022 performance. The bad offensive line, injured QB, underperforming WR2 and it being Dorsey's first year calling the plays all added up to a very up and down season. Granted the offense still was a top unit by many measurements. However, I think by the end of 2023 we will really see how good or bad Dorsey is. Dorsey has more weapons and tools to work with in 2023 and a full year under his belt. Hopefully with better guard play and some new weapons things pan out bettter.

[Beck Water]

On 7/13/2023 at 5:46 PM, DJB said:

 

 

Just a little note that this is apparently his ranking of THIS YEAR'S offensive coordinators who have not yet coordinated an NFL game with their new team (and in some cases, never yet have).

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

I give Dorsey an incomplete for his 2022 performance.

 

Fair, but again, to be clear - Sam Monson is projecting 2023 performance.

[Donuts and Doritos]

How is Brian Callahan, the Cinci OC not on this list? 

 

Been to a Superbowl & another AFC Championship game. Kicked our arse along the way. & Most reasonable people would agree the Cinci offense is rop 10 in the league.

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Donuts and Doritos

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Sure, but that way the list is not top 10 coordinators.  It's coordinators of top 10 offenses.  

 

Um no it's not. 

 

2022 top 10 offenses:

Chiefs

Eagles

Cowboys

Bills

Lions

49ers

Vikes

Bengals

Seahawks

Jags

 

Monson's list by team:

Lions

Chargers

Patriots

Seahawks

Bills

Commanders

Ravens

Chiefs

Colts

Cowboys

 

It's basically Monson's list of what OCs he likes.

[Chaos]

Are these regular season rankings? or do they include the playoffs? If they are all inclusive and  If you are going to credit Bienemy as the chiefs OC, then he is #1 by far. 

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Um no it's not. 

 

2022 top 10 offenses:

Chiefs

Eagles

Cowboys

Bills

Lions

49ers

Vikes

Bengals

Seahawks

Jags

 

Monson's list by team:

Lions

Chargers

Patriots

Seahawks

Bills

Commanders

Ravens

Chiefs

Colts

Cowboys

 

It's basically Monson's list of what OCs he likes.

You missed my point.  I was responding to someone who said that if the Bills have a top offense, then Dorsey must be a top coordinator.   I said if that's how you measure top coordinator, then that's a list of the coordinators of the to9p offenses.  I didn't say that this guy, whoever he is, made his list that way.  

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, gjv said:

I think you are splitting hairs. What criteria would you use to rate the OC's in 2022?

I would fund ways to measure who's offenses are most creative.  I would find coordinators who turned around bad offenses.  I would find coordinators who manage thei assistants well.  

 

Again, I wouldn't say that Dorsey is a good coordinator just because he didn't screw up the good offense he inherited. He didn't make it all that different or better, so far as I can see.  And when offense stalled late in the season, he didn't seem to have answers. 

 

What is it that actually was good at?  

 

The fact is that I don't know, and I don't think many people here know, what it takes to be a good coordinator.  

[Shaw66]

I mean, you want to talk about best qbs?  Best rbs?  Great

  At least you have some stats to look at.

 

Best offensive guards?  Tougher to find relevant stats.  PFF tries to do it, bit PFF is really suspect.

 

What stats do you look at to evaluate OCs.  You don't see any highlight reels of OCs.  No replays.  And they do their jobs during the week, and we don't see them do it.  

 

So, exactly how do we know who's good at it and who isn't?

 

We know by seeing how they do over time. Their head coaches know, because they see the OC every day, but the HCs aren't telling us who's good and who isn't.  

[Beck Water]

24 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You missed my point.  I was responding to someone who said that if the Bills have a top offense, then Dorsey must be a top coordinator.   I said if that's how you measure top coordinator, then that's a list of the coordinators of the to9p offenses.  I didn't say that this guy, whoever he is, made his list that way.  

 

Apologies, I did miss your point.

[boyst]

On 7/13/2023 at 7:01 PM, BillsfaninSB said:

Jim Bob Cooter?  Is that a real person or prank?

He's been a hot coordinator for a while. Some have said he isn't going to be a HC because his name. No joke. 

[Thurman#1]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:46 AM, DJB said:

 

 

 

Can't get there on Twitter. Tried five times and keep getting tech messages.

 

Love seeing that.

 

 

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I would fund ways to measure who's offenses are most creative.  I would find coordinators who turned around bad offenses.  I would find coordinators who manage thei assistants well.  

 

Again, I wouldn't say that Dorsey is a good coordinator just because he didn't screw up the good offense he inherited. He didn't make it all that different or better, so far as I can see.  And when offense stalled late in the season, he didn't seem to have answers. 

 

What is it that actually was good at?  

 

The fact is that I don't know, and I don't think many people here know, what it takes to be a good coordinator.  

 

 

It's a good point.

 

And more, our sample size on Dorsey is still really small. 

 

At the very least he still has a lot to prove. And you're right that coordinator impact is really really hard to measure.

[hondo in seattle]

On 7/13/2023 at 4:25 PM, LVGrown said:

Agreed. How many first time coordinators can say in their first season (even getting handed the keys to a top 5 offense) they came in at 13-3 with a playoff win and one of the highest scoring offenses in the NFL. I'm sure they exist, but few and far between. 

 

Is there room for improvement? Of course, it's literally this dudes first time in the role, give him a break. 

 

I'm usually an empirical kind of guy.  Facts sway me.  But something about Dorsey's performance last year - particularly during the second half of the season (yes, when Josh was playing hurt) - that worried me.  His game planning and play calling seemed off...  predictable...  unimaginative.  

 

I'm not ready to condemn the guy but I'd have trouble rating him in the Top Ten.  Let's see what he does this year. 

 

I hope my misgivings are wrong and he coaches the offense to a stupendous SB victory.  

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, boyst said:

He's been a hot coordinator for a while. Some have said he isn't going to be a HC because his name. No joke. 

 

He hasn't even been a coordinator for a while. He got the Lions OC job mid season, I think when Joe Lombardi was fired if I have my timing right. Then his first full season in charge Matt Stafford produced on of his best Lions seasons and they made the playoffs. However, performance declined and he was let go when Jim Caldwell was fired. He has been a position coach and offensive assistant in the 4 or 5 years since until Shane Steichen hired him this spring to be Colts OC. 

 

But you are right that after that good year he had with Stafford when no HC interviews were forthcoming there was a little bit of "is it because of his name?" chatter. I don't think it was personally. It was because of sample size. 

[Buffalo716]

6 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I mean, you want to talk about best qbs?  Best rbs?  Great

  At least you have some stats to look at.

 

Best offensive guards?  Tougher to find relevant stats.  PFF tries to do it, bit PFF is really suspect.

 

What stats do you look at to evaluate OCs.  You don't see any highlight reels of OCs.  No replays.  And they do their jobs during the week, and we don't see them do it.  

 

So, exactly how do we know who's good at it and who isn't?

 

We know by seeing how they do over time. Their head coaches know, because they see the OC every day, but the HCs aren't telling us who's good and who isn't.  

 Any coordinator position is tough to judge 

 

we are taking about the highest in there profession In the world…

 

I don’t like talking ***** about coaches because I’ve been in the game for so long… People like my opinion here… But I would kill for any of the positions in the league

There are so many good coaches at the high school , junior college , division three , division two and division one levels it’s insane 

 

And 99% will bust their ass for 30 years and never reach the big time… I spent time around David Culley and knew the information he brought to the game… super high level 

 

Yet people here bashed him and said he was un qualified… But I knew he would be an NFL head coach one day and said the same here… And I was laughed at

 

But I knew the type of coach he was and the Xs and Os he can bring it to the game… And It didn’t surprise me he was one of 32 in the world to be called an NFL head coach

 

It’s a tough fraternity and coaches stick together… And everybody knows who actually knows the goods

 

It’s why I don’t want to get rid of McDermott for an unknown… he is a very smart head coach And I am willing to ride with him because I think he will get us a Lombardi 

 

coach bashing is the easiest thing to do… but it doesn’t always turn out for the best when you get rid of them

Edited July 15, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 Any coordinator position is tough to judge 

 

we are taking about the highest in there profession In the world…

 

I don’t like talking ***** about coaches because I’ve been in the game for so long… People like my opinion here… But I would kill for any of the positions in the league

There are so many good coaches at the high school , junior college , division three , division two and division one levels it’s insane 

 

And 99% will bust their ass for 30 years and never reach the big time… I spent time around David Culley and knew the information he brought to the game… super high level 

 

Yet people here bashed him and said he was un qualified… But I knew he would be an NFL head coach one day and said the same here… And I was laughed at

 

But I knew the type of coach he was and the Xs and Os he can bring it to the game… And It didn’t surprise me he was one of 32 in the world to be called an NFL head coach

 

It’s a tough fraternity and coaches stick together… And everybody knows who actually knows the goods

 

It’s why I don’t want to get rid of McDermott for an unknown… he is a very smart head coach And I am willing to ride with him because I think he will get us a Lombardi 

 

coach bashing is the easiest thing to do… but it doesn’t always turn out for the best when you get rid of them

Well put.  Especially the part about, essentially, it takes one to know one.  

 

Great stuff.

 

Thanks.

[boyst]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He hasn't even been a coordinator for a while. He got the Lions OC job mid season, I think when Joe Lombardi was fired if I have my timing right. Then his first full season in charge Matt Stafford produced on of his best Lions seasons and they made the playoffs. However, performance declined and he was let go when Jim Caldwell was fired. He has been a position coach and offensive assistant in the 4 or 5 years since until Shane Steichen hired him this spring to be Colts OC. 

 

But you are right that after that good year he had with Stafford when no HC interviews were forthcoming there was a little bit of "is it because of his name?" chatter. I don't think it was personally. It was because of sample size. 

Hard to believe that was that long ago

[Buffalo716]

10 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Well put.  Especially the part about, essentially, it takes one to know one.  

 

Great stuff.

 

Thanks.

Appreciate it Shaw and always love your Rockpile review

 

And yes that’s basically a part I was alluding at… All the coaches know who actually has the goods and who doesn’t

[MJS]

21 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I mean, you want to talk about best qbs?  Best rbs?  Great

  At least you have some stats to look at.

 

Best offensive guards?  Tougher to find relevant stats.  PFF tries to do it, bit PFF is really suspect.

 

What stats do you look at to evaluate OCs.  You don't see any highlight reels of OCs.  No replays.  And they do their jobs during the week, and we don't see them do it.  

 

So, exactly how do we know who's good at it and who isn't?

 

We know by seeing how they do over time. Their head coaches know, because they see the OC every day, but the HCs aren't telling us who's good and who isn't.  

So why are you and others judging Dorsey so harshly? You admit that there isn't really a way to know. All we can go on is offensive stats, really.

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

So why are you and others judging Dorsey so harshly? You admit that there isn't really a way to know. All we can go on is offensive stats, really.

I'm not judging him harshly.  I don't know how good he is at his job.  I do think that his offense became less effective down the stretch,and that shouldn't happen to a good coordinator.  But that could have happened for a lot of reasons, like oline, Josh's elbow.  And Dorsey was a rookie.

 

And, as I said, getting the same results as the year before doesn't mean he's good.  No one thinks a rookie OC who inherits a bad offense and gets the same results as the year before is a good coordinator.  

 

McDermott know how good he is and what his potential, but I can't tell.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Shaw66

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not judging him harshly.  I don't know how good he is at his job.  I do think that his offense became less effective down the stretch,and that shouldn't happen to a good coordinator.  But that could have happened for a lot of reasons, like oline, Josh's elbow.  And Dorsey was a rookie.

 

And, as I said, getting the same results as the year before doesn't mean he's good.  No one thinks a rookie OC who inherits a bad offense and gets the same results as the year before is a good coordinator.  

 

McDermott know how good he is and what his potential, but I can't tell.

Yea so Dorsey as a rookie coordinator gets a small pass 

 

experience will help every coordinator… but he did get more predictable as the season went on …

 

Did his lack of experience catch up? Probably 

 

does he have the ability to go deeper into the book and get us out of Jams with playcalls? Yes

 

but he has to trust his players to execute .. and get more unpredictable 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Buffalo716

[LABILLBACKER]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:41 PM, Shaw66 said:

I would fund ways to measure who's offenses are most creative.  I would find coordinators who turned around bad offenses.  I would find coordinators who manage thei assistants well.  

 

Again, I wouldn't say that Dorsey is a good coordinator just because he didn't screw up the good offense he inherited. He didn't make it all that different or better, so far as I can see.  And when offense stalled late in the season, he didn't seem to have answers. 

 

What is it that actually was good at?  

 

The fact is that I don't know, and I don't think many people here know, what it takes to be a good coordinator.  

That's a fantastic and accurate way of describing Ken's first year. It was like a Daboll intern just running it back while he hangs on.  I saw nothing innovative from his plays or schemes. It was basically Josh & Stefon doing the heavy lifting while the OL/ Run game struggled.  The offense albeit functional statistically, lacked creativity and an identity. 

[Sierra Foothills]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:44 AM, Draconator said:

Jim Bob Cooter sounds like he had 25 kids and a reality TV show

 

He was previously the Robertson family's friend in Duck Dynasty.

 

On 7/14/2023 at 6:30 PM, boyst said:

He's been a hot coordinator for a while. Some have said he isn't going to be a HC because his name. No joke. 

 

It's a results-oriented business. If you can coordinate a successful offense for a few seasons it doesn't matter if your name is Lieutenant Uhura.

 

Cooter ultimately didn't have the track record... at least according to my tricorder.

 

[CoudyBills]

On 7/13/2023 at 6:58 PM, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

You mean other than the fact that the Bills had one of the best offenses in the NFL last year?  

1st sentence

[GunnerBill]

On 7/15/2023 at 8:04 AM, Buffalo716 said:

 

coach bashing is the easiest thing to do… but it doesn’t always turn out for the best when you get rid of them

 

Yep and it is even more prevalent now in many sports. I coached soccer at a pretty good semi-professional level in the UK for 7 years with a reasonable level of success. It is a different sport and obviously the NFL in particular is a different stratosphere in terms of attention... but at the same time I know the sacrifice it takes and I know that feeling of watching a human being on a field make a mistake in a game that undermines all the work you put in that week. The clubs I coached only had a few hundred fans but I've stood on a sideline on a wet, dark, Saturday afternoon in November with people shouting abuse at me and being able to hear very clearly every criticism. I know the level of resilience it takes. 

 

You are the figurehead and you take more flack than you should in most situations. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

What’s laughable about the Dorsey criticism is most of the criticism lines up with the Allen injury.

 

Whats even worse is most of the people criticizing Dorsey also believe WR and OL lack talent.

To me OC’s make their money in the redzone. They struggled in the redzone the first couple months of the season, mostly due to Allen’s struggles. Well they were really bad actually in the middle of the season. But were back to elite in the redzone by the end of the regular season.

 

It’s why I have no worries about Dorsey. He did that with terrible WR and OL play.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[LABILLBACKER]

On 7/13/2023 at 5:49 PM, HereComesTheReignAgain said:

They were #2 in yards per game and points per game in the entire league. What would Dorsey have had to accomplish to get some credit from you?  

Josh gets the credit and most of the heavy lifting.  I saw very little creativity last year from KD other than JA continuing to be a freak athletic cyborg.  Hopefully Dorsey finds an offensive identity and runs with it.  I'll stay optimistic. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by LABILLBACKER