Looking at our options to rebuild the o-line in 2023

[CSBill]

11 hours ago, HOUSE said:

You might  I say might see one new starter...

Hate to ruin your day

 

And he will be from the draft--a Guard.

[Bill from NYC]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Former Bills OL coach Karl Mauck projected as a first round pick for a Gilligans Island re-boot.

He used to stand next to Levy and the two of them would be shouting obscenities at the refs for what seemed like most of the game. On TV you could even see the saliva flying out of their mouths.  Sometimes Mauch would be screaming obscenities at refs when Levy was quiet. I would have told him to shut the f$#@ up before we get penalized, but by that time Levy was not 100% coherent imo.

 

Being a Bills Fan is great. I would not trade being one to root for any other team, but as Jerry Garcia said, "what a long, strange trip it's been."  👍🏈😲😃

[Southern Bills Fan]

I wish that everyone would stop with the "we could have had this guy" stuff. We don't have that guy. There are always guys that end up better than people think.

[Thurman#1]

14 hours ago, Einstein said:

In my opinion, we missed a prime opportunity to rebuild the o-line the last two off-seasons. I did a bit of thinking about what we could have done last offseason and that's the first part of the post, but then below that I go over what options are available this offseason.

 

O-line we could have had maybe

 

LT- Dion Dawkins

LG- Brandon Scherff or Ryan Bates (I prefer Bates)

C- Creed Humphrey

RG- James Daniels

RT- L'aell Collins

 

Collins signed a 3 year, $21M contract with the Bengals last off-season. 

Daniels signed a 3 year, $26.5M contract with the Steelers last off-season.

Scherff signed a 3 year, $49.5M contract with the Ravens last off-season. 

Creed Humphrey is on a rookie 4 year, $5.5M contract with the Chiefs.

 

All of these players COMBINED were signed/drafted for LESS than the Bills gave Von Miller (in both total money and guaranteed money). Would you trade Von for a brand new o-line? I like Von, but I think I would do that trade. In addition to this, we would have offset the $19.5M given to Morse last year (on a 2 year deal), and $6.5M we gave to Saffold to be a turnstile this year. I guess you could say that we dont know if some of these players would have wanted to come to Buffalo, but I think the days of players spurning Buffalo just because are over.

 

 

 

 

This is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. To say that they were signed for less, you have to spin like a nuclear-powered dreidel.

 

This year, Von Miller's cap hit was $5.15M

 

This year, Creed Humphrey's cap hit was $1.264M, La'el Collns' was $4.666M, James Daniels' was $4.166M and Scherff's was $7.647M

 

So bringing in those four would have totalled $17.743 this last year. That's about $12.5M extra this year compared to Von, in a year when we were $1.9M over the cap.

 

Next year, 2023, on the other hand, it's a bit different. 

 

Von Miller's cap hit will be $18.615M.

 

Whereas Scherff's will be $20.941M. See where this is going? Daniels' will be $11.166M, Collins' will be $9.384M and Humphreys' will be $1.51M. That's a grand total of $43.001M, meaning $24.386M more next year than Von. In a year where right now we're right now $20.511M over the cap already.

 

Same thing for 2024, much more for them than for Von.

 

Probably people have already posted this. Sorry if I'm repeating. But what utter and complete nonsense.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Einstein]

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

To say that they were signed for less, you have to spin like a nuclear-powered dreidel.

 

They did sign for less. Both in total money AND guaranteed money. Cap amounts are a formulaic rule based on many factors including structuring and years and not only the total/guaranteed amount you pay the player.

 

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

This year, Von Miller's cap hit was $5.15M

 

This year, Creed Humphrey's cap hit was $1.264M, La'el Collns' was $4.666M, James Daniels' was $4.166M and Scherff's was $7.647M

 

So bringing in those four would have totalled $17.743 this last year. That's about $12.5M extra this year compared to Von, in a year when we were $1.9M over the cap.

 

You forgot that we would have saved $4.2M in cap for not signing Saffold and $8M in cap for not signing Morse and $5.15M for not signing Von and almost $2M for not signing Quess.

 

So let's do some math here.

 

Humphrey: 1.3M

Collins: 4.6M

Daniels: 4.2M

Scherff: 7.7M

 

Total of: 17.8M

 

Now lets subtract the players we would NOT have:

 

17.8M

- 4.2M for Saffold

- 8.0M for Morse

- 1.8M for Quessenbery (since Bates would become the backup T)

- 5.15M for Von

---------------

= $1.35M SURPLUS

 

We would have saved $1,350,000 more (not spent 12.5M more) in CAP for a brand new o-line in 2022.

 

And that's not including the fact that you missed my comment in the original post saying I wouldn't have signed Scherff. I would have just used Bates in hi LG spot. 

 

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

Next year, 2023, on the other hand, it's a bit different. 

 

Von Miller's cap hit will be $18.615M.

 

Whereas Scherff's will be $20.941M. See where this is going? Daniels' will be $11.166M, Collins' will be $9.384M and Humphreys' will be $1.51M. That's a grand total of $43.001M, meaning $24.386M more next year than Von. In a year where right now we're right now $20.511M over the cap already.

 

 

OK, let's do some math again.

 

Humphrey: 1.5M

Collins: 9.4M

Daniels: 11.2M

Scherff: 20.9M

 

Total of: 43M

 

Now lets subtract the players we would NOT have:

 

43M

- 4M for whatever player they would have replace Saffold with

- 11.1M for Morse

- 1.8M for whatever player they would have replaced Quessenberry with

- 18.6M for Von

---------------

= $7.5M

 

We would have spent $7.5M more (not 24M more) in CAP for a brand new o-line in 2023.

 

Now, being that Beane's contracts have been well designed, he likely adds on bonus years for Schlerff and Daniels, just like he did with Von. That's the only reason Von's cap number is reasonable, even if his total number is not. If Beane did that, the $7.2M all but disappears altogether.

 

Personally, as I said in the original post, I wouldn't have signed Schlerff. I would have slid Bates into LG like we did in late 2021 and he did great. Doing that REALLY obliterates any cost overruns. That would bring Year 1 savings to almost $9M and year 2 savings to around $12M.

 

And the line would have been:

 

LT: Dawkins

LG: Bates

C- Humphrey

RG: Daniels

RT: Collins

 

Long story short, your numbers were way off.

 

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Probably people have already posted this. Sorry if I'm repeating. But what utter and complete nonsense.

 

Nope. No one else posted this, because the other people in this thread read my post for what it said, not what you wanted it to say. They also didn't forget to subtract numerous players on the team that wouldn't be here if we signed an entire new o-line.

 

And for what it’s worth, I personally would have been fine with them even spending $10M more in cap for a brand new o-line rather than having, say, Poyer, who I really like but is worth less than an entire o-line.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Einstein

[Nihilarian]

 

According to PFF, the Bills ended up having the 23rd best offensive line in the NFL last season. Not the best finish, and it’s not the best look considering the year prior. Buffalo dropped two spots from their final rating at No. 21 at the end of the 2021 season.

 

https://billswire.usatoday.com/2023/02/02/pro-football-focus-buffalo-bills-offensive-line-rankings-dion-dawkins-mitch-morse/

 

The counter argument is that this move would leave the right guard spot open next to another struggling offensive lineman in second-year right tackle Spencer Brown. Brown was neck-and-neck with Saffold in pressures allowed in 2022 (Brown had 29) and gave up a whopping nine quarterback hits — most on the team by over double, despite only playing in 14 games. Putting a new face next to him in what will be a pivotal year might not be the best thing for his development.

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2023/2/2/23582156/buffalo-bills-2023-offseason-team-needs-guard-rodger-saffold-ryan-bates

 

The Bills need to go all out in rebuilding that O line...whatever it takes!

[colin]

not sure how feasible this is, but i'd like it if we could sign a solid LT (knowing it would cost some) so that we can kick dawkins to LG, or move him to RT, or what have you.

 

Dawkins, Morse, Hyde, Poy, Edmunds, Tre White, Oliver, Basham, AJE and once his contract is up Von will all be off the team in the next 2 seasons or so IMO.   We have option value on the DL on rook contracts, so maybe one or two will be kept, but these are guys we should either replace in the draft cheaply when the time comes, or via FA.  as far as FA goes, i think we do quite well in value signings (jones and initial py and hyde contracts being stellar) and out right star signings (von and diggs, altho we also traded for Diggs).  

 

I think we will be better getting our stars via trade or FA than hope and a prayer drafting.  obv happy to get some drafting, but i think we've hamstrung ourselves mostly on re-signings.  Hyde and Poy new contracts, White 2nd contract, Dawkins, and the combo of Milano/Knox/5th year options on liver and edmunds.  not saying those last 4 were bad individually, but the combo of them w our roster construction has put us in a goofy spot.

[hondo in seattle]

This is a depressing thread.  We haven't had a good OL since Josh has been here.  And it doesn't seem likely we'll have one in 2023.  Just not enough resources.  

[ALLEN1QB]

After all the cuts we do I kind of wonder how much Capital we will have to spend

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Just checking you mean "starting quality" as in "of the required standard to start"? Not as in "starting" and "quality". I know it should be obvious via the lack of punctuation but then this is TSW...

 

But yea, agreed. Feliciano's best games for the Bills came at center when Morse was out and no surprise to see him perform serviceably there for the GMen.

 

Yeah there aren't many good offensive lines in the NFL so starting quality still begins below "good".    

 

People are reluctant to admit it but the standard for a centers ability to block man-on-man is clearly lower than that of a guard.

 

I loved Creed Humphrey as a prospect.........he was All American quality as a freshman.......but the position is so easy to fill adequately that it's hard to justify using a premium pick on it.

 

With rare exception the quality of an offensive line is seen in the blocking talent of the LT and guards.    Even RT you can have a stiff like McGlinchey out there sometimes and still have one of the better lines in the league.

[Big Blitz]

Put him at Guard I’d be good with this 

 

 

[JMM]

ONE big FA signing, preferably guard, then two of the first three picks in draft for OL. This is the way...😌

[BrooklynBills]

Conservative Option:

-Sign T George Fant to compete with Spencer Brown. I would project this cap hit to be about 2 or 3 mil. This would give you a capable swing guy to spell Dawkins in case of injury as well. 

-Target a OT rounds 3-5 of the draft.  Examples: round 3 - Warren McClendon; round 4 - Nick Saldiveri

-Your OTs are Dawkins, Brown, Fant, Doyle, and your rookie developmental T

 

-Sign G Trai Turner, cap hit roughly 2-3 mil

-Draft a G in rounds 1-3 of the draft.  The Bills need to flat out just add some athletic talent here.  They don't really have any guys that can stand up physically to other teams interior lineman. Examples: round 2 - John Micheal Schmitz; round 2 - Cody Mauch

-Keep Morse at C

Dawkins-Bates-Morse-rookie/Turner-Fant/Brown | with a young mid round developmental lineman.

Other than rookie contracts, you've added roughly 4-6 mil in cap here.

 

Aggressive Option:

- Cut Morse (saving 5.36 mil on the cap-6mil dead money)

- Sign Ben Powers (10M AAV - year 1 cap hit 5m)

- Move Bates to C

- Draft OT in round 1 - Dawand Jones; competes with Brown (this dude is showing out so he might shoot up the draft board out of our range)

- Draft G/T in round 3 - Warren McClendon; starts at G, could play RT also

- Draft G/C in round 4 - Jarrett Patterson; backup at both G spots and played C for 3 years in college.

 

Dawkins-POWERS-Bates-McClendon-Jones

Other than rookie contracts, you are SAVING .36 mil on the cap here so you could probably still afford a quality backup G/T. And you are getting significantly younger and more athletic on the OL.

[LabattBlue]

54 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Put him at Guard I’d be good with this 

 

 

Sign me up!!!

[RyanC883]

First, thank for the in-depth write up on the upcoming FAs.  I agree with going after Turner, although I don't know he walks into the role.  I'd like to get a C/G out of the 1st two rounds, my top pick currently being Patterson from ND.  If we get a WR in FA, I wouldn't mind hitting an OT in rd. 1 and guard/center in rd. 2.  My bolded below have that addition.  

 

LT- Dion Dawkins

LG- Ryan Bates

C- Mitch Morse

RG- Trai Turner (Patterson (ND)/Schmitz (MN)) 

RT - Mike McGlinchey (Steen (AL); Duncan (MD); Jones (OSU).)  

Edited February 2, 2023 by RyanC883

[BrooklynBills]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

Put him at Guard I’d be good with this 

 

 

 

He will be 24 in March.  Not a complete "NO" from me but just something to think about with this prospect.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Put him at Guard I’d be good with this 

 

 

 

He is my #1 IOL. He could play guard as a rookie and slide over to center later. 

[Bill from NYC]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

And center might be Bates best position.

 

It's fairly common for guys who can't play tackle or guard a lick to be starting quality NFL centers.    See Jon Feliciano.

Have you or @GunnerBillBill seen Bradley Bozeman in the NFL? I liked him alot in college, and he is one of those "high character" guys. He has a charity, etc. 

 

PS: He ain't no Landon Dickerson who is a flat out beast imo.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Have you or @GunnerBillBill seen Bradley Bozeman in the NFL? I liked him alot in college, and he is one of those "high character" guys. He has a charity, etc. 

 

PS: He ain't no Landon Dickerson who is a flat out beast imo.

 

 

Yea - the book on him is he can run block. He struggles in pass pro. Had a nice enough year in Carolina though, having gone there originally as a backup.

 

As for Dickerson if there was no injury concern he'd have gone day 1 IMO. He went first few picks of the 2nd in the end I think but the knee ligaments definitely made some teams wary. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBills said:

 

 

Dawkins-POWERS-Bates-McClendon-Jones

Other than rookie contracts, you are SAVING .36 mil on the cap here so you could probably still afford a quality backup G/T. And you are getting significantly younger and more athletic on the OL.

 

Stop! I can only get so excited!

[LABILLBACKER]

5 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

They did sign for less. Both in total money AND guaranteed money. Cap amounts are a formulaic rule based on many factors including structuring and years and not only the total/guaranteed amount you pay the player.

 

 

You forgot that we would have saved $4.2M in cap for not signing Saffold and $8M in cap for not signing Morse and $5.15M for not signing Von and almost $2M for not signing Quess.

 

So let's do some math here.

 

Humphrey: 1.3M

Collins: 4.6M

Daniels: 4.2M

Scherff: 7.7M

 

Total of: 17.8M

 

Now lets subtract the players we would NOT have:

 

17.8M

- 4.2M for Saffold

- 8.0M for Morse

- 1.8M for Quessenbery (since Bates would become the backup T)

- 5.15M for Von

---------------

= $1.35M SURPLUS

 

We would have saved $1,350,000 more (not spent 12.5M more) in CAP for a brand new o-line in 2022.

 

And that's not including the fact that you missed my comment in the original post saying I wouldn't have signed Scherff. I would have just used Bates in hi LG spot. 

 

 

OK, let's do some math again.

 

Humphrey: 1.5M

Collins: 9.4M

Daniels: 11.2M

Scherff: 20.9M

 

Total of: 43M

 

Now lets subtract the players we would NOT have:

 

43M

- 4M for whatever player they would have replace Saffold with

- 11.1M for Morse

- 1.8M for whatever player they would have replaced Quessenberry with

- 18.6M for Von

---------------

= $7.5M

 

We would have spent $7.5M more (not 24M more) in CAP for a brand new o-line in 2023.

 

Now, being that Beane's contracts have been well designed, he likely adds on bonus years for Schlerff and Daniels, just like he did with Von. That's the only reason Von's cap number is reasonable, even if his total number is not. If Beane did that, the $7.2M all but disappears altogether.

 

Personally, as I said in the original post, I wouldn't have signed Schlerff. I would have slid Bates into LG like we did in late 2021 and he did great. Doing that REALLY obliterates any cost overruns. That would bring Year 1 savings to almost $9M and year 2 savings to around $12M.

 

And the line would have been:

 

LT: Dawkins

LG: Bates

C- Humphrey

RG: Daniels

RT: Collins

 

Long story short, your numbers were way off.

 

 

Nope. No one else posted this, because the other people in this thread read my post for what it said, not what you wanted it to say. They also didn't forget to subtract numerous players on the team that wouldn't be here if we signed an entire new o-line.

 

And for what it’s worth, I personally would have been fine with them even spending $10M more in cap for a brand new o-line rather than having, say, Poyer, who I really like but is worth less than an entire o-line.

Snap Thurman

[Thurman#1]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:42 PM, Einstein said:

 

They did sign for less. Both in total money AND guaranteed money. Cap amounts are a formulaic rule based on many factors including structuring and years and not only the total/guaranteed amount you pay the player.

 

 

You forgot that we would have saved $4.2M in cap for not signing Saffold and $8M in cap for not signing Morse and $5.15M for not signing Von and almost $2M for not signing Quess.

 

So let's do some math here.

 

Humphrey: 1.3M

Collins: 4.6M

Daniels: 4.2M

Scherff: 7.7M

 

Total of: 17.8M

 

Now lets subtract the players we would NOT have:

 

17.8M

- 4.2M for Saffold

- 8.0M for Morse

- 1.8M for Quessenbery (since Bates would become the backup T)

- 5.15M for Von

---------------

= $1.35M SURPLUS

 

We would have saved $1,350,000 more (not spent 12.5M more) in CAP for a brand new o-line in 2022.

 

And that's not including the fact that you missed my comment in the original post saying I wouldn't have signed Scherff. I would have just used Bates in hi LG spot. 

 

 

OK, let's do some math again.

 

Humphrey: 1.5M

Collins: 9.4M

Daniels: 11.2M

Scherff: 20.9M

 

Total of: 43M

 

Now lets subtract the players we would NOT have:

 

43M

- 4M for whatever player they would have replace Saffold with

- 11.1M for Morse

- 1.8M for whatever player they would have replaced Quessenberry with

- 18.6M for Von

---------------

= $7.5M

 

We would have spent $7.5M more (not 24M more) in CAP for a brand new o-line in 2023.

 

Now, being that Beane's contracts have been well designed, he likely adds on bonus years for Schlerff and Daniels, just like he did with Von. That's the only reason Von's cap number is reasonable, even if his total number is not. If Beane did that, the $7.2M all but disappears altogether.

 

Personally, as I said in the original post, I wouldn't have signed Schlerff. I would have slid Bates into LG like we did in late 2021 and he did great. Doing that REALLY obliterates any cost overruns. That would bring Year 1 savings to almost $9M and year 2 savings to around $12M.

 

And the line would have been:

 

LT: Dawkins

LG: Bates

C- Humphrey

RG: Daniels

RT: Collins

 

Long story short, your numbers were way off.

 

 

Nope. No one else posted this, because the other people in this thread read my post for what it said, not what you wanted it to say. They also didn't forget to subtract numerous players on the team that wouldn't be here if we signed an entire new o-line.

 

And for what it’s worth, I personally would have been fine with them even spending $10M more in cap for a brand new o-line rather than having, say, Poyer, who I really like but is worth less than an entire o-line.

 

 

Please. Very very fudgy numbers there. You were the one who implied it was a one-for-four swap that would have cost the same. It would not have.

 

It was you who compared Von Miller to those five guys. You who said "Would you trade Von for a brand new OL?" Again, those don't line up.

 

Now you're trying to pretend that if they'd drafted Humphrey then they would not have extended or kept Morse, which is nonsense. They would at least have kept him for competing with and mentoring Humphrey for 2022. When does McDermott draft a rookie and not plan to feed him in slowly? Most coaches do it that way, and for good reason. But at center? No way they would have done that on a year that looked so good looking forward. Morse would have been here and he would have cost about $9M against the cap in 2022. That's about what he'd have cost even without signing the extension. And they absolutely would have kept Morse even if they didn't extend him.  

 

In 2023, you throw in $4M in savings in your scheme for a completely theoretical person, whoever they'd have replaced Saffold with. Nonsense. You don't know who that would have been or more particularly how much he'd have cost. Could easily have been a draft choice from this year costing much less, or a cheaper FA. Or a more expensive one, for that matter. But you take a pure wild-ass guess of money and throw it in as if it were a fact. Pure crap adding that in.

 

Would have been at the least $7M extra money in 2022, when we were only about $1.9M over the cap. In 2023, somewhere around $8 to $12M in a year when we now $20.511M over the cap. But you spent $7M extra in 2022 so the situation in 2023 would now have been even worse if we'd spent that extra money last year and had to somehow kick cans down the road.

 

And plenty more in 2024, though assuming they hadn't extended Morse.

 

And more to the point, all that extra money would have resulted in Von not being there. We saw what Von being injured did to the pass rush this year. Nearly destroyed it.

 

You do all of this with the extreme benefit of hindsight, picking four OLs who you saw in 2022 before you proposed this. Real moves don't have the benefit of hindsight.

 

Would've loved to have drafted Creed. At the time I was campaigning for OL in the first two or so rounds. The FAs, particularly together, were just too expensive for this team at that time and into the future, particularly when you include not having Von, who was a huge difference-maker in this defense.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Thurman#1

[LABILLBACKER]

On 2/1/2023 at 4:34 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I know Boogie Basham was a bad pick but the obsession with Creed Humphrey on this board is approaching the obsession with runnin' bax.

 

Center is the easiest position to fill on the line.........there is a good chance Creed Humphrey will price himself out of KC with his play.........just like Rodney Hudson and Mitch Morse before him.    

 

Who cares if he gets priced out. You get him free for 5 years. 

[GreggTX]

If we have only 1 new starter on our 28th ranked OL next season, that tells me that this team doesn't know how to win. I don't want to see us go pass on 1st, gadget play on 2nd, pass on 3rd all year which puts it all on Josh. We need upgrades or at least competition for WR2 and Slot Receiver, but we REALLY need a big, nasty OL that can take control of the LOS. If that means parting ways with other talent, so be it. I'm tired of "good enough". 5th worst OL in the NFL is nowhere near good enough if you want to win the SB. Go look at the PFF ratings for the 2 SB teams. That's what you need. They need to find a way. And for God's sake, get us a RB that can handle 20 carries a game and move the pile. Our offense is 1 dimensional. That won't get it done.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 2/2/2023 at 4:05 AM, FeelingOnYouboty said:

1. John Michael Schmitz-C Minnesota 6’4 320

 

3. Cooper Beebee-G Kansas State 6’3 320

 

Sign Evan Brown-G Lions

Sign Taylor Lewan-T Titans

 

4 new starters on our OL. That immediately turns us into a top OL unit in one off-season.

Our backups would be Doyle, Boetteger, Bates and Brown.

 

The Chiefs upgraded their OL in one offseason by trading for Orlando Brown-T signing Joe Thuney-G and Andrew Wylie-T and drafting Creed Humphrey-C and Trey Smith-G.

 

They did that in one off-season after losing the Super Bowl. There’s no excuse for us to be sticking with the Ryan Bates and Spencer Browns of the world let alone Roger Saffold.

Ryan Bates can be a excellent center in hope they move him . 

[Thurman#1]

On 2/3/2023 at 5:39 AM, LABILLBACKER said:

Snap Thurman

 

 

Except, no.

 

They wouldn't have gotten rid of Morse for a rookie at center. If we've discovered anything about this group it's that they tend to feed rookies in slowly, and that they greatly value experience particularly at center. Which makes sense. Morse didn't just play center well, he's improved everyone around him and got them working together well. When he was out, even though the fill-ins did his physical job in an OK fashion though less athletically, but there was an immediate regression of line play across the whole group. If McDermott had let Morse go in that situation, I'd have called the police and asked that they check his bedroom for one of those bodysnatcher pods.

 

If they'd have drafted Humphrey, first, I'd have cheered, but second, they'd almost certainly have put him at guard for a year, if not more, but at least a year. That would have saved them the money of one of those expensive FAs he's saying with hindsight that they should have  brought in.

 

Not to mention his casual invention of a $4M player in 2023 who doesn't exist to bolster his argument. Someone will have to fill that spot, but it could easily be a 2nd round pick costing a mill or so on the cap. Or Ryan Bates who is already on the roster and would require zero extra spending.

 

I'm all for improving the line. Don't mistake me. But his way was unrealistic, was developed only with hindsight, and would have cost quite a bit extra in all three of the years those FAs were signed for, in years when we're already in bad cap shape. I screwed up originally and didn't account for the Bills guys who would have been cut to make room for his additions. But it still would have cost quite a bit extra on the cap all three years.

 

But Von was the missing piece that made this defense better than the sum of its parts. IMO if we'd had him we'd have won both those playoff games at KC. Maybe even this one too, though the whole team played like crap. Mahomes just stepped around our rush and hung in there. Burrow did much the same. Von was greatly missed.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, GreggTX said:

If we have only 1 new starter on our 28th ranked OL next season, that tells me that this team doesn't know how to win. I don't want to see us go pass on 1st, gadget play on 2nd, pass on 3rd all year which puts it all on Josh. We need upgrades or at least competition for WR2 and Slot Receiver, but we REALLY need a big, nasty OL that can take control of the LOS. If that means parting ways with other talent, so be it. I'm tired of "good enough". 5th worst OL in the NFL is nowhere near good enough if you want to win the SB. Go look at the PFF ratings for the 2 SB teams. That's what you need. They need to find a way. And for God's sake, get us a RB that can handle 20 carries a game and move the pile. Our offense is 1 dimensional. That won't get it done.

 

Youre arguing over one $4M player as if it changes anything. Take that away if you want and you still have a reasonably cost o-line and not much more than Von would have cost if Beane structure them properly like he always does. You’re just one of those people who can’t ever admit they’re wrong. No point in discussing further. Feel free to have the last word - I won’t respond.

[Thurman#1]

26 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Youre arguing over one $4M player as if it changes anything. Take that away if you want and you still have a reasonably cost o-line and not much more than Von would have cost if Beane structure them properly like he always does. You’re just one of those people who can’t ever admit they’re wrong. No point in discussing further. Feel free to have the last word - I won’t respond.

 

 

Of course you won't respond. Why would you? You said it cost the same thing, and you were wrong, and there's no way out of it. If I were trapped into such an awful position as your OP put you in, I personally wouldn't spend ten seconds trying to defend it. Totally understand why you'd stay away, makes total sense.

 

Your plan would cost $7M+ extra in 2022, $8 - $12M extra in 2023, and yet more in 2024.

 

You're in a crappy spot here. It's why you keep moving the goal posts in every post you make on this. Now you're saying it's an O-line at reasonable cost. Even that doesn't make complete sense. For a team with a lot of cap space, yeah, the cost is a bit high, but not outrageous. For a team that as tight against the cap as we are, adding a bunch of costs here is not reasonable at all. On top of taking Von Miller, an absolute difference-maker, out of the mix.

 

You said it was the same cost as Von Miller. You didn't say that you could have an O-line at reasonable cost. 

 

You're the one who created that $4M player out of thin air and then added it into the total to make your argument look better. Not me. You. Don't want people to bother you about $4M? Don't create them out of mid-air.

 

$4M matters plenty to the Bills. Again, they were only $1.9M over the cap last year, and your plan here would've added about $9M to that year's cap before we even consider the 2023 cap and your imaginary $4M.

 

Again, $7M+ extra in 2022, $8 - $12M extra in 2023, and yet more in 2024.

 

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

I find it impossible to believe that the Bills can’t simply draft two starting Guards this year. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Who cares if he gets priced out. You get him free for 5 years. 

 

Free?   They already had Morse under contract.    

 

What good is being cap inexpensive if Humphrey was a backup or you had to eat a fortune in dead money by releasing Morse to give him the job?   

 

The assumption people make around here is that a good center can just move over and play guard well.............my point is that good centers are usually lesser blockers than good guards.   In general, guard>center in terms of pure blocking talent required.

 

For all we know Creed Humphrey wouldn't be worth a sh!t at guard.   Same with Morse.    The highly athletic college LT Ryan Bates might be a pro bowl level center for all we know.......it's said to be his best position(of course)...........but we know he's just meh at guard.   

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I find it impossible to believe that the Bills can’t simply draft two starting Guards this year. 

 

 

Admit it........you thought it was impossible that Cody Ford wouldn't AT LEAST be a good starting guard.

 

The problem is that offensive lineman like the lumbering Ford are generally the least athletic players on the field all during those HS and college years.........just throwing picks at these lesser athletes because they played a lot in college or looked good surrounded by great players doesn't necessarily translate to "problem solved".

 

That's why teams are always taking chances on athletes at the O Line positions even if they know they need years of coaching up.    The Bills OL room is actually full of  very high RAS guys at various stages of their careers like Dawkins, Saffold, Brown, Doyle, Bates and Morse.    Saffold has been an All Pro.   Dawkins and Morse have been very good player in their careers.   The others are works in progress.   I suspect if they were all in their prime together it would be an excellent OL..........but that's why it's hard to put together 5 good OL........they are typically one of the least if not the very least pro ready groups of prospects.......and fans think it's the other way around. 

 

It's actually quite possible that the Bills could throw 4 picks at OL and not get 1 even average starter out of the group as rookies.   

 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

C Connor McGovern - Didn't miss a snap all season, but is pretty average. Remember when Milano wrecked Mike White and broke his ribs? That was on McGovern. He doesn't handle the blitz well from what I've read. His estimated market value is $12.5M per season. 

Im going to go ahead and say I doubt this is true. 
 

I mean, it is, but not in a way that’s applicable to the guy we signed. 
 

Edited March 13, 2023 by SCBills

[Aussie Joe]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

Updating this thread since the Bills signed Connor McGovern. Here is what I wrote about him at the time:

 

 

C Connor McGovern - Didn't miss a snap all season, but is pretty average. Remember when Milano wrecked Mike White and broke his ribs? That was on McGovern. He doesn't handle the blitz well from what I've read. His estimated market value is $12.5M per season. 

 

You got the wrong one...

 

We signed the Dallas one

[Einstein]

Just now, Aussie Joe said:

 

You got the wrong one...

 

We signed the Dallas one

 

Yep you caught me before I deleted it haha

Oh well! 

[Moulds 808080]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

Im going to go ahead and say I doubt this is true. 

Yeah wrong guy 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Moulds 808080 said:

Yeah wrong guy 

Imagine the other Connor McGovern reading that Connor McGovern is signing in Buffalo.

[Solomon Grundy]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Imagine the other Connor McGovern reading that Connor McGovern is signing in Buffalo.

We need the Spider Man meme right about now 😎

[billsfan89]

McGovern is a nice start, a plug-and-play guard at an average to above-average level who can flex into center if needed. But I would like to see a vet RT even another mid-level player brought in to compete with Spencer Brown and add depth. The Bills from 2019 to 2021 had decent depth on the O-line. In 2022 that depth was lacking. Queese was seemingly the only decent backup. The Bills need to enter into the season with another high-quality IOL depth player, an heir apparent at center for Mitch drafted in rounds 3-5 and a quality RT option to compete with Spencer Brown at a minimum. I would have liked a higher-end guard than McGovern but I can live with it if more depth is added to the O-line as a result of going with a somewhat cheaper option. 

[LABILLBACKER]

28 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

McGovern is a nice start, a plug-and-play guard at an average to above-average level who can flex into center if needed. But I would like to see a vet RT even another mid-level player brought in to compete with Spencer Brown and add depth. The Bills from 2019 to 2021 had decent depth on the O-line. In 2022 that depth was lacking. Queese was seemingly the only decent backup. The Bills need to enter into the season with another high-quality IOL depth player, an heir apparent at center for Mitch drafted in rounds 3-5 and a quality RT option to compete with Spencer Brown at a minimum. I would have liked a higher-end guard than McGovern but I can live with it if more depth is added to the O-line as a result of going with a somewhat cheaper option. 

Quessenberry?....you mean the same guy who practically got Josh's arm torn off. I'll pass on Q, Saffold and Spencer.  Connor should be an upgrade at RG as we slide Bates to LG.  Now we either draft or sign a bigger name for RT.  Brown is only depth.

[Einstein]

Just saw that Ben Powers signed in Denver for only $12M per year. That sucks so much. He is a great linemen and getting better. Would have loved to have him here.