Kurt Warner Breakdown of Josh Allen in the Miami Game

[JohnRVA]

I didn't see this anywhere else in the forums. This is a breakdown by Kurt Warner of the Miami game. It's pretty in depth on what Josh should be looking at first, second, third. Pretty good breakdown IMHO for those of us who are not film experts.

 

[HappyDays]

Thanks for posting but I only got through 9 minutes before giving up. Kurt Warner clearly doesn't like Allen's style and it colors his evaluation. So on the 1st drive he talks about the miss to McKenzie on 3rd down. He says a throw to Davis at the sticks is the easier throw. But the read to McKenzie is fine, he's open Allen just sails the pass. The play was bad but not for the reason Kurt Warner says. Then on the TD to Morris he criticizes Allen for immediately running out of the pocket. I guess Kurt Warner hasn't watched a lot of Allen film, because Allen runs to the right all the time to set up an easier throw. He isn't bailing the pocket, he immediately sees that Morris is in single man coverage with the safety in trail so he runs to the right to set up a good angle and then throws a dime. That is the kind of throwing platform Allen prefers. This play in particular was unbelievably poor analysis so that was the end of the video for me.

[Richard Noggin]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Thanks for posting but I only got through 9 minutes before giving up. Kurt Warner clearly doesn't like Allen's style and it colors his evaluation. So on the 1st drive he talks about the miss to McKenzie on 3rd down. He says a throw to Davis at the sticks is the easier throw. But the read to McKenzie is fine, he's open Allen just sails the pass. The play was bad but not for the reason Kurt Warner says. Then on the TD to Morris he criticizes Allen for immediately running out of the pocket. I guess Kurt Warner hasn't watched a lot of Allen film, because Allen runs to the right all the time to set up an easier throw. He isn't bailing the pocket, he immediately sees that Morris is in single man coverage with the safety in trail so he runs to the right to set up a good angle and then throws a dime. That is the kind of throwing platform Allen prefers. This play in particular was unbelievably poor analysis so that was the end of the video for me.

 

Without yet watching this video, we know Warner's MO has been critiquing Allen's play based on a very conventional, rote interpretation of pocket passing and progressions. He's not going to appreciate the off-schedule and scramble stuff because he'll instead point out the play that could have been made in rhythm from the pocket (instead of holding onto the ball longer and/or breaking the pocket). 

 

It's the traditional, pedantic way to analyze QB play. He's not exactly wrong, but he's also not necessarily right. 

[StHustle]

1 hour ago, JohnRVA said:

I didn't see this anywhere else in the forums. This is a breakdown by Kurt Warner of the Miami game. It's pretty in depth on what Josh should be looking at first, second, third. Pretty good breakdown IMHO for those of us who are not film experts.

 

I’ll pass. I get annoyed watching Warner break down Josh. Give me Baldy all day tho!

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, JohnRVA said:

I didn't see this anywhere else in the forums. This is a breakdown by Kurt Warner of the Miami game. It's pretty in depth on what Josh should be looking at first, second, third. Pretty good breakdown IMHO for those of us who are not film experts.

 

 

A perfectly fine analysis.

 

Not sure what others are complaining about. There are times Allen bails early and misses the layup or misses the easy throw looking for the home run. This is not news.

 

Warner did not spend a lot of time on those either, if folks had a bit more patience he was pretty balanced in his analysis. What I found enlightening were the many times he said he loved the designs of the plays, but often our receivers were just a little off running their routes, or off in their techniques or leverage getting off the press man coverage Miami prefers, and missing those small execution details limited the windows of opportunity the plays were designed to open for Allen.

 

That made me feel better about some of Dorsey's play design, but also shows that there needs to be more focus on execution detail and ensuring players are running the right routes, with the right timing, to the right depths... success is in the details.

 

I think Allen does need to get set and get rid of the ball more on schedule in the RZ. That comes from him both recognizing what the defense is doing, and trusting his reads and protection. I think that string of games with the RZ turnovers has made him a bit more hesitant to pull the trigger than he was last season. It is understandable and I think he is gradually working through it.

 

Fortunately Allen is supremely gifted and can usually make something positive happen off schedule.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Protocal69]

I was going to post this as a separate post but decided not to but my question is.

 

Is it time for the Bills to get a big body receiver who can make contested catches?

 

I know that one key to Josh Allen development was getting away from big bodied receivers to receivers that can run precise routes. This was probably the right approach because of Josh Allen accuracy issues in his 1st couple of seasons in the league.

 

Now that Allen ball placement and accuracy is better now I think we can revisit the need of a WR that can make contested catches

 

Here is an example of what Im talking about from the 1st Dolphins game in the second clip for the pass into the endzone. Now imagine a receiver like Mike Williams or out of last draft class George Pickens that plays for the Steelers. Gabe would be a excellent player but for his size he drops too many contested catches. If he could fix that issue along with his weak ankles that would be ideal but if not I think we should invest either through the draft or free agency for a Mike Williams/ Mike Evans type of receiver.

 

One last case to support my case is the fact that we play are most important games in Dec/Jan/Feb:) I think it helps to have size at the receiver stop to help in the redzone/run game WR blocking and for footing purposes. I might do some research on this certain aspect to see if it really does help in that regard.

 

 

[DrPJax]

Warner was a prototypical pocket passer who was immobile. Qb play has changed. Kurt is consistent in his pointing out flaws he always sees with Josh’s style of play. Even Rex Ryan said do not coach Josh “ down” !   Warner does not want to acknowledge his time has passed and I think he only believes his way is the correct way to play qb.  I like Kurt , but his analysis of Josh is always the same , critical analysis and it’s tiresome.   When did Kurt leap for a drive sustaining first down or run 50:yards?  He also had three other hof guys playing with him, including Faulk. 
He is always critical of the Bills ; one must have critiqued his wife’s “ unique” hair styles at some point, as most women from the mafia at least look very feminine while having good football knowledge!  Lol!  Kurt needs to get rid of that dam Michelin coat he wears and accept Josh is the type of qb / athlete who will surpass Warner’s passing stats while also being a complete “ football “ player , not just a pocket passer.
Some guys can’t accept someone being a superior athlete at their  position, Kurt strikes me as that guy. It’s time for guys like him and Bradshaw to move on. The game has given them life changing wealth so like all careers , it’s time for new generational talent. Let’s see them succeed in other fields or just go enjoy your families.  These networks hold on to stale talent and wonder why these pregame shows are criticized.   There should be term limits for these old athletes who played in a different era , just like term limits are needed for politicians like the senate and congress as it has lead to the same ineffective bottom line. 😊🎄

[Shortchaz]

As well as Allen played, he did put the ball on the ground late. That fumble could’ve cost the bills the game (along with the defense playing poorly). It didn’t, thankfully, but that’s how it is with Allen. He’s a slinger. 

[Buddo]

Tbh, I think it's the kind of film study that Allen will do with Dorsey.

 

Warner, from what I can see, doesn't want Allen to stop being Allen, he just wants him to take more of the easier throws that are available, and make life a little easier for himself, and everyone else.

 

Over time, I'm sure Allen will gradually do that, as it's not risk averse, it's simply taking what the opposing D is giving him - and he knows he should be doing that better at times.

 

I consider it to be constructive criticism, and to be fair to Warner, he was pretty much in awe of Allen on the Sunday Morning show.

[H2o]

Warner is a tool. He's always been highly critical of Josh and you can tell even now that it makes him cringe inside to give him praise. We can all see that Josh misses some things at times because he still can get locked in on the chunk plays. Other times he is going after the quick hitters and flat passes to get what he can. Other times he's scrambling around in the backfield and making off script throws that only 1 or 2 other guys in the league can make. Other times he will see a lane, say eff the progressions, and go get 20-40 yards with his legs. This is our Franchise QB. This is what he does. Thanks for posting OP, but I surely can't take an hour's worth of KW assessing Josh or anyone else for that matter. 

[hemma]

I think that choosing the ‘easy throw’ is relatively simple if you can rewind the above ground level tape 4 or 5 times.

[GunnerBill]

Kurt Warner breaks down what Quarterbacks are reading and should be reading as well as anyone in the business. I think if people watch this looking for criticisms of Josh they will find them. Because Josh doesn't really play by the rules. But Kurt acknowledges that right up top, and says he was a guy who because of more limited athletic ability had to play by the rules. 

 

The more interesting thing in this breakdown for me is actually watching the Bills route concepts and how they are trying to attack Miami. There are some lay ups there that Josh will wish he'd have taken when he watches the film. But there is overwhelmingly more good than bad. 

[GoBills808]

End zone angle of that first throw to McKenzie is a better view tbh

 

Allen needs to layer that one high to get over robber LB

 

McKenzie doesn't go up for it

[Charles Romes]

I think Warner is being a little too humble when he said he did not have next level ability.  I see a lot of Warner in Allen.  Warner was the best of his era in terms of looking deep down field every play, keeping defenses terrorized. Allen is the best of his era. 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

I think Warner is being a little too humble when he said he did not have next level ability.  I see a lot of Warner in Allen.  Warner was the best of his era in terms of looking deep down field every play, keeping defenses terrorized. Allen is the best of his era. 

 

Kurt was definitely an aggressive thrower, but for a different reason that Allen I think. Josh is an aggressive thrower because there is no throw on the football field that he doesn't think he can make. Kurt was an aggressive thrower because he had exceptional processing speed and so could see that window open down the field before anyone else and if it wasn't there he had realised that quickly enough that his underneath throw hadn't closed off in the meantime. 

 

But they both wanted to make the big play before they settled for the completion. They have that in common.

[bigduke6]

i have zero problem with Warners critques of Josh.   i watched this before it was posted here,  and ive watched Warner previously break down Josh in other vids.    he's fair imo.   i agree with Warner in that eventually Josh is going to have to make those easy mental throws and not rely on the amazing play when things break down.  i understand thats Allens game as of right now,  but,  as time progresses,   and injuries or just age catch up with Josh,  he's  going to start having to take those "layup" passes and play a more mental game.    Josh is fine now,  he'll continue to grow hopefully and become just as deadly with his field reading as he is with his feet/school yard run around make a unicorn play.  Go Bills!!!.

[jletha]

Funny enough the preferred QB style for Kurt is Tua. A cerebral QB that has great anticipation and great accuracy. I think its fine to have multiple opinions out there breaking down the same tape. Kurt is consistent in that he always criticizes Allen using his athleticism when it wasnt 100% necessary. Kurt wants Allen to play like Drew Brees when its available and then only utilize his physical talents when there isnt a good play to make within the pocket. It is his personal rubric but I think it will just never happen. Of course if you cant escape the pocket and throw on the run like Allen you will be forced to read the field a bit better or get benched. Guys like Tua and Drew Brees and Kurt were able to do so. They are definitely more cerebral than Josh. But Josh is (more) successful because he can do 75% of that and also make plays happen out of structure. But sometimes he prefers out of structure. The TD to Morris is a perfect example.

 

Yes he could have stayed in the pocket but he imiediately say that Morris beat his man and so ran right to get the throw he wants. Was it "Ideal QB play"? No, Brady would have stayed in the pocket and made the throw. But Josh doesnt have to and thats fine by me.

[SDS]

2 hours ago, Protocal69 said:

I was going to post this as a separate post but decided not to but my question is.

 

Is it time for the Bills to get a big body receiver who can make contested catches?

 

I know that one key to Josh Allen development was getting away from big bodied receivers to receivers that can run precise routes. This was probably the right approach because of Josh Allen accuracy issues in his 1st couple of seasons in the league.

 

Now that Allen ball placement and accuracy is better now I think we can revisit the need of a WR that can make contested catches

 

Here is an example of what Im talking about from the 1st Dolphins game in the second clip for the pass into the endzone. Now imagine a receiver like Mike Williams or out of last draft class George Pickens that plays for the Steelers. Gabe would be a excellent player but for his size he drops too many contested catches. If he could fix that issue along with his weak ankles that would be ideal but if not I think we should invest either through the draft or free agency for a Mike Williams/ Mike Evans type of receiver.

 

One last case to support my case is the fact that we play are most important games in Dec/Jan/Feb:) I think it helps to have size at the receiver stop to help in the redzone/run game WR blocking and for footing purposes. I might do some research on this certain aspect to see if it really does help in that regard.

 

 

since this has nothing to do with Kurt Warner’s analysis, it is by definition a separate topic.

[BlazinBill]

I really don't mind Kurt's take but they are definitely 2 different QB's on how they play and see the field - I attempted to watch it. I just couldn't. I really enjoy breakdowns Chris Simms did alot of last year(unsure if he still does them) Its probably for his straight love for Josh, but felt like he had better takes and was just more enjoyable. And of course Baldy

5 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

A perfectly fine analysis.

 

Not sure what others are complaining about. There are times Allen bails early and misses the layup or misses the easy throw looking for the home run. This is not news.

 

Warner did not spend a lot of time on those either, if folks had a bit more patience he was pretty balanced in his analysis. What I found enlightening were the many times he said he loved the designs of the plays, but often our receivers were just a little off running their routes, or off in their techniques or leverage getting off the press man coverage Miami prefers, and missing those small execution details limited the windows of opportunity the plays were designed to open for Allen.

 

That made me feel better about some of Dorsey's play design, but also shows that there needs to be more focus on execution detail and ensuring players are running the right routes, with the right timing, to the right depths... success is in the details.

 

I think Allen does need to get set and get rid of the ball more on schedule in the RZ. That comes from him both recognizing what the defense is doing, and trusting his reads and protection. I think that string of games with the RZ turnovers has made him a bit more hesitant to pull the trigger than he was last season. It is understandable and I think he is gradually working through it.

 

Fortunately Allen is supremely gifted and can usually make something positive happen off schedule.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm with ya here- I do feel like the responsibility of the offensive coordinator is to design red zone plays that suite your QB- but watching JA extend is amazing but also leaving my defibrillator drained 

Some quick reads would be nice from time to time

Edited December 20, 2022 by BlazinBill

[Don Otreply]

Kurt’s does have his own perspective, and that’s valid enough, he comes across as grudgingly accepting Joshes style of play. He is good at break downs, but Baldy is imo better at it, and far more fun to watch.

[SoCal Deek]

Not sure what the problem is here. I guarantee you that Josh would appreciate and respect the commentary and critique from someone of Warner’s resume. But no…not here…critique is not allowed. Geeez people. 

[ehfeuh57]

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Thanks for posting but I only got through 9 minutes before giving up. Kurt Warner clearly doesn't like Allen's style and it colors his evaluation. So on the 1st drive he talks about the miss to McKenzie on 3rd down. He says a throw to Davis at the sticks is the easier throw. But the read to McKenzie is fine, he's open Allen just sails the pass. The play was bad but not for the reason Kurt Warner says. Then on the TD to Morris he criticizes Allen for immediately running out of the pocket. I guess Kurt Warner hasn't watched a lot of Allen film, because Allen runs to the right all the time to set up an easier throw. He isn't bailing the pocket, he immediately sees that Morris is in single man coverage with the safety in trail so he runs to the right to set up a good angle and then throws a dime. That is the kind of throwing platform Allen prefers. This play in particular was unbelievably poor analysis so that was the end of the video for me.

 

No reason to get mad.

 

He's a HOF QB and that's the way he would play it.  Its like a poker player evaluating another, we all do things differently and you can still critique and it doesn't even make the original guy wrong. I'm continuing on in the video.

[T master]

I made it in about 1;52 but from the little i heard i feel Josh could do better if he would att times take what is right in front of him rather than look for the BIG throw as he does at times but maybe that will come he did it in the beginning of this season more so but as long as he keeps winning that's all that matters .

[clayboy54]

My take away is that Gabe and Isaiah have to work on their route timing. That is a valid point. Several of the good route concepts were broken because one or both of them were too fast in their timing. The route was done before the progression developed.

 

This absolutely explains why we see far less success in the downfield passing this second-half of the season. They need to slow down and relax in their route running. It may be Dorsey not giving them routes they are already accomplished at as well. But, they need to grow their game to get better for Josh.

[JohnRVA]

I think Kurt was mostly neutral in the analysis. I didn't agree with everything but it was interesting to hear his perspective on the route concepts. For example, I like how he explained the check down options to Cook and the types of routes he could run and how Cook ran it kind of in between which meant Josh couldn't throw it to him. Obviously the Cover 1 guys know our offense and players better but I still learned some things,

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, JohnRVA said:

I didn't see this anywhere else in the forums. This is a breakdown by Kurt Warner of the Miami game. It's pretty in depth on what Josh should be looking at first, second, third. Pretty good breakdown IMHO for those of us who are not film experts.

 

Thanks!  Warner has improved these a lot and they're now much easier to follow.  Great breakdown.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Thanks for posting but I only got through 9 minutes before giving up. Kurt Warner clearly doesn't like Allen's style and it colors his evaluation. So on the 1st drive he talks about the miss to McKenzie on 3rd down. He says a throw to Davis at the sticks is the easier throw. But the read to McKenzie is fine, he's open Allen just sails the pass. The play was bad but not for the reason Kurt Warner says. Then on the TD to Morris he criticizes Allen for immediately running out of the pocket. I guess Kurt Warner hasn't watched a lot of Allen film, because Allen runs to the right all the time to set up an easier throw. He isn't bailing the pocket, he immediately sees that Morris is in single man coverage with the safety in trail so he runs to the right to set up a good angle and then throws a dime. That is the kind of throwing platform Allen prefers. This play in particular was unbelievably poor analysis so that was the end of the video for me.

 

So, I've been watching Warner's breakdowns of Allen since he came into the league (Allen that is) and I think you're missing his points here.

 

He says right up front, he calls Allen the human "GCP" (Game Changing Play) because he can do just that at any time.  He acknowledges that as a player, he did not have the ability to do that, so he had to win the game mentally by reading the defense and taking the easy throws.  (He also didn't have Allen's ability to evade defenders).  He states that what he's doing, is breaking down the film from that POV, what easy options are the offensive plays designed to open up?  The easy option is always to stay in the pocket and take the throw if there is a pocket, and a QB who is running is open to that defender he's not aware of plastering him for a strip sack, not that that ever happens to Allen - Oh, Wait.

 

So basically, you're objecting to Warner doing exactly what he says he's going to do, up front at the beginning.

 

You're incorrect that Warner doesn't like Allen's style.  Over time, Warner's breakdowns of Allen have changed DRAMATICALLY as he recognizes that Allen has the physical abilities to do all sorts of things he couldn't do himself, and make them work.  He's actually kind of in awe of Allen, now, I think. 

 

But he also has a valid point that if Allen doesn't remain aware of his "Easy!" buttons and train himself mentally to take them at times, he can find himself struggling and throwing picks when the defensive coverage is better than usual, or the pass rush is fiercer than usual, or the weather sucks more than usual.  We have seen this when the offense has struggled as Allen has been working his way back from his elbow injury and trying to tone down his picks.

9 hours ago, WideNine said:

Warner did not spend a lot of time on those either, if folks had a bit more patience he was pretty balanced in his analysis. What I found enlightening were the many times he said he loved the designs of the plays, but often our receivers were just a little off running their routes, or off in their techniques or leverage getting off the press man coverage Miami prefers, and missing those small execution details limited the windows of opportunity the plays were designed to open for Allen.

 

That made me feel better about some of Dorsey's play design, but also shows that there needs to be more focus on execution detail and ensuring players are running the right routes, with the right timing, to the right depths... success is in the details.

 

Yes, I've appreciated that in Warner's analysis of what's gone wrong with Denver's offense - he critiques the WR route running as well.

 

I can see that in some of the routes Gabe Davis and McKenzie are running, they are NOT supposed to be where they end up, but I haven't been able to sort out what's going wrong.

 

Anyway, I think there's a lot of value here especially for people who are worried about Dorsey's play design and play calling.  The point is that the play design is opening options.  Sometimes the options are there and Allen isn't taking them; sometimes the play design is sound but the execution is flawed.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Beck Water

[Solomon Grundy]

6 hours ago, DrPJax said:

Warner was a prototypical pocket passer who was immobile. Qb play has changed. Kurt is consistent in his pointing out flaws he always sees with Josh’s style of play. Even Rex Ryan said do not coach Josh “ down” !   Warner does not want to acknowledge his time has passed and I think he only believes his way is the correct way to play qb.  I like Kurt , but his analysis of Josh is always the same , critical analysis and it’s tiresome.   When did Kurt leap for a drive sustaining first down or run 50:yards?  He also had three other hof guys playing with him, including Faulk. 
He is always critical of the Bills ; one must have critiqued his wife’s “ unique” hair styles at some point, as most women from the mafia at least look very feminine while having good football knowledge!  Lol!  Kurt needs to get rid of that dam Michelin coat he wears and accept Josh is the type of qb / athlete who will surpass Warner’s passing stats while also being a complete “ football “ player , not just a pocket passer.
Some guys can’t accept someone being a superior athlete at their  position, Kurt strikes me as that guy. It’s time for guys like him and Bradshaw to move on. The game has given them life changing wealth so like all careers , it’s time for new generational talent. Let’s see them succeed in other fields or just go enjoy your families.  These networks hold on to stale talent and wonder why these pregame shows are criticized.   There should be term limits for these old athletes who played in a different era , just like term limits are needed for politicians like the senate and congress as it has lead to the same ineffective bottom line. 😊🎄

I wonder if he critiques Mahomes the same way? 

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, DrPJax said:

Warner was a prototypical pocket passer who was immobile. Qb play has changed. Kurt is consistent in his pointing out flaws he always sees with Josh’s style of play. Even Rex Ryan said do not coach Josh “ down” !   Warner does not want to acknowledge his time has passed and I think he only believes his way is the correct way to play qb.  I like Kurt , but his analysis of Josh is always the same , critical analysis and it’s tiresome.   When did Kurt leap for a drive sustaining first down or run 50:yards?  He also had three other hof guys playing with him, including Faulk. 

 

This is not doing Warner credit as a QB.  No, he was not a running QB, and yes, he was coached to stay in the pocket, but he was one of those "teflon" guys we saw like a younger Tom Brady or Drew Brees - he had that uncanny body sense of where defenders were and could just take a step and make the defender miss or duck and let the defender sail over him then make the throw. 

 

In addition, how to read defensive coverages post-snap and identify the best option has not changed.  It's not a "style of play" thing, it's seeing the leverage, understanding what the defense is giving you, and taking it.

 

Look.  Here's the series from the very first play Warner breaks down (click to enlarge).  We converted 2 1st Downs, then Punted.  Miami then proceeded to go on a 14 play drive, including a 4th down conversion, ending in a FG.

The play Warner breaks down is 1st and 10 incomplete to McKenzie.

 

Allen is going for the "kill shot" to the WR running the deep over route, who happens to be McKenzie on this play.  But the CB is initially dropping to cover the over route McKenzie is running, and there's a safety back there as well who closes by the time Allen pulls the trigger.  (Eventually, Allen gets the CB to bite and move forward to cover Diggs and open up the deep route to McK, but by then the safety has closed)

 

Allen he has three, count them, THREE, receivers who are wide open early in the play, including 2 underneath guys who could gain some yards, and Diggs, who is our BEST receiver no question, open as *****  and past the 1st down marker.  McKenzie is the "kill shot" if Allen completes the throw, but he's actually the best covered of the WR.  Allen throws to him, the pass is broken up by the corner we see dropping back to take it away.

 

Allen hits Diggs on time instead, we get a first down and maybe some more, we keep moving the ball down the field and at least wind up with points.  

 

 

 

He isn't "coaching Josh down", he is pointing out that Josh has options to sustain drives that he's not taking.  It's the difference between NEEDING that drive at the end of the game (and the DPI that might not be called) to win, vs. going into the 4th with a comfortable lead.  

 

People complain that Dorsey isn't "scheming guys open" or they "see no evidence" that there are open guys underneath that Allen isn't hitting.  Here are 3 WR schemed open including Diggs, and Allen is choosing the least open guy.  People complain that the OL isn't giving Allen enough pass protection.  Well, Allen has more than enough pocket time to throw to Diggs, he's asking more of his OL so that he can wait for a deeper option.  The OL would look a lot better in pass pro, too, if Allen would take some of these easier shots.

 

Moreover, the tape is out - it doesn't matter that's McKenzie back there.  It could be Davis, it could be Diggs.  Allen will almost always choose his deepest option if he thinks there's a chance, and teams know it and cheat their coverage that way which is why the deep options aren't working as well as they did earlier in the season (and why we keep stalling out and punting early in games).  It's why you see Singletary and Knox  with enough green around them to plant a ***** Christmas Tree farm, and why you see Diggs, one of the best and most scary receivers in the league, with so much space around him.

 

This is really Football 101 and critiquing Warner as an old fuddy-duddy whose football time has passed when he points this out misses the fair, IMHO. 

Last but not least, why on earth would you choose the judgement of that bloviating never-was Rex Ryan, over a 2x 1st team all-pro with 3 SB appearances and a SB ring? 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Thanks for posting but I only got through 9 minutes before giving up. Kurt Warner clearly doesn't like Allen's style and it colors his evaluation. So on the 1st drive he talks about the miss to McKenzie on 3rd down. He says a throw to Davis at the sticks is the easier throw. But the read to McKenzie is fine, he's open Allen just sails the pass. The play was bad but not for the reason Kurt Warner says. Then on the TD to Morris he criticizes Allen for immediately running out of the pocket. I guess Kurt Warner hasn't watched a lot of Allen film, because Allen runs to the right all the time to set up an easier throw. He isn't bailing the pocket, he immediately sees that Morris is in single man coverage with the safety in trail so he runs to the right to set up a good angle and then throws a dime. That is the kind of throwing platform Allen prefers. This play in particular was unbelievably poor analysis so that was the end of the video for me.

 

If you're talking about the first play Warner diagrams, which was the Bills 2nd drive, it's 1st and 10 to McKenzie and that's Diggs at the sticks.

Warner's point is that by the time Allen manipulates the CB with his eyes to come up on Diggs and open McKenzie, the safety has closed.

 

You're also I think missing Warner's point about Allen moving right.  His point is that because there's a guy spying Allen, when Allen rolls right unnecessarily (protection is good), he takes the spy right into Singletary's path and cancels what would otherwise be an easy throw over the middle of the field with lots of space for Singletary to get the touch.  Count noses: Warner is correct, there is absolutely NOBODY HOME who could prevent it, IF Allen stays in the pocket and maybe even looks left a little to freeze the spy.

 

It's great Allen completes the "dime" to Morris, and it's 1st and 10 so as long as Allen doesn't throw a pick we have 2 more shots if he doesn't.  But it's no way poor analysis by Warner.  We complain all the time about our drives in the red zone stalling out and having to settle for FG.

 

Warner is correctly pointing out the easy shot the play is designed to scheme open against that defense, and how Allen is taking that very easy shot away from himself by rolling to the R when he doesn't have to.

 

You don't have to agree with Warner all the time (I don't), but I'm surprised you can't even be open minded enough to give him a full listen.  He 100% Knows His Ball.  He watches Josh Allen a lot - I would say at this point he's even somewhat fascinated with Allen because of Josh's abilities to do things he knows he couldn't have done.  But that doesn't mean he doesn't see different choices Allen could make that would be easier and sometimes higher % thus better.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Beck Water

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Warner is correctly pointing out the easy shot the play is designed to scheme open against that defense, and how Allen is taking that very easy shot away from himself by rolling to the R when he doesn't have to.

 

 

 

Warner is seemingly unaware of the simple fact that our oline can't block consistently and Allen knows it

 

This is man zero so everyone up front is blocking 1v1 which Allen rightly doesn't trust

 

rolling out and buying time is absolutely the right move

[YattaOkasan]

18 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

If you're talking about the first play Warner diagrams, which was the Bills 2nd drive, it's 1st and 10 to McKenzie and that's Diggs at the sticks.

Warner's point is that by the time Allen manipulates the CB with his eyes to come up on Diggs and open McKenzie, the safety has closed.

 

You're also I think missing Warner's point about Allen moving right.  His point is that because there's a guy spying Allen, when Allen rolls right unnecessarily (protection is good), he takes the spy right into Singletary's path and cancels what would otherwise be an easy throw over the middle of the field with lots of space for Singletary to get the touch.  Count noses: Warner is correct, there is absolutely NOBODY HOME who could prevent it, IF Allen stays in the pocket and maybe even looks left a little to freeze the spy.

 

It's great Allen completes the "dime" to Morris, and it's 1st and 10 so as long as Allen doesn't throw a pick we have 2 more shots if he doesn't.  But it's no way poor analysis by Warner.  We complain all the time about our drives in the red zone stalling out and having to settle for FG.

 

Warner is correctly pointing out the easy shot the play is designed to scheme open against that defense, and how Allen is taking that very easy shot away from himself by rolling to the R when he doesn't have to.

 

You don't have to agree with Warner all the time (I don't), but I'm surprised you can't even be open minded enough to give him a full listen.  He 100% Knows His Ball.  He watches Josh Allen a lot - I would say at this point he's even somewhat fascinated with Allen because of Josh's abilities to do things he knows he couldn't have done.  But that doesn't mean he doesn't see different choices Allen could make that would be easier and sometimes higher % thus better.

 

 

 

I agree the easy shot is to Singeltary on this play.  I dont agree that Josh can make this play if he stays in the pocket as Warner says.  If he stays in the pocket why is the spy gonna move.  I think Josh opens Singeltary up by moving. 

 

Overall, agree with your other posts that he does a good job identifying missed opportunities like the McK above.  I also liked the end of half play (where he shows the high low that should be thrown) and the strip sack where Beasely is wide open. 

 

I wholly disagree with the TD to Knox.  That was exactly the right play.  The outside guys are playing 3 on 2.  He spent some time talking about throwing to those routes when Knox was the right read all day.  Additionally, I dont know that Warner is appreciating the disguised coverage that Josh sees (which is weird cause im sure Warner saw it too).  I dont think the 40 yarder to Knox was MOFC but rolled into MOFO after the snap.  This negates some of his analysis on that play.  

 

Overall though I think Warner does a good job finding some of the meat on the bone, but think some of the other posters arent off when they say Warner is overly critical of Josh. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, YattaOkasan said:

I agree the easy shot is to Singeltary on this play.  I dont agree that Josh can make this play if he stays in the pocket as Warner says.  If he stays in the pocket why is the spy gonna move.  I think Josh opens Singeltary up by moving. 

 

Overall, agree with your other posts that he does a good job identifying missed opportunities like the McK above.  I also liked the end of half play (where he shows the high low that should be thrown) and the strip sack where Beasely is wide open. 

 

I wholly disagree with the TD to Knox.  That was exactly the right play.  The outside guys are playing 3 on 2.  He spent some time talking about throwing to those routes when Knox was the right read all day.  Additionally, I dont know that Warner is appreciating the disguised coverage that Josh sees (which is weird cause im sure Warner saw it too).  I dont think the 40 yarder to Knox was MOFC but rolled into MOFO after the snap.  This negates some of his analysis on that play.  

 

Overall though I think Warner does a good job finding some of the meat on the bone, but think some of the other posters arent off when they say Warner is overly critical of Josh. 

Warner does not like Allen

[Utah John]

I think a lot of the posters here are missing the point.  The analysis is about the context of the play design, the defensive alignment, and what actions the QB needs to take and when to take them.  These are all valid topics not related to Josh.  A QB without Josh's talents has to make different choices, OK fine.  In Warner's eyes, those other choices are what he was trained to make.  OK fine, he has a yellow jacket and a Lombardi, so he's worth listening to.

 

But there are two points to make.  First, those other QBs without the special talent will have defenses sitting on their routes because they can't make the special throws.  Josh's ability to make the special throws limits what the other team's D will try to do, and it makes them just a little less free to play an attacking style.  Second, the game has changed since Warner was playing.  Defenses are always adapting and improving.  Josh is playing against today's D.  Josh (and even Peterman for that matter) would destroy the Warner-era Ds.  

 

If I was watching this as an average-talent QB at the HS or college level, or even in the pros, the lessons I would take away are how I would be trying to beat defenses by excellent play design, route running, timing, and decision making.  The Bills don't always have the best of any of those characteristics and yet they still are winning.  But they could be more effective.  One more TD drive per game and the Bills become much more dangerous, and that added drive could come about because Josh takes a layup now and then to move the chains.  

[Beck Water]

23 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Warner is seemingly unaware of the simple fact that our oline can't block consistently and Allen knows it

 

This is man zero so everyone up front is blocking 1v1 which Allen rightly doesn't trust

 

rolling out and buying time is absolutely the right move

 

 

Dude!  Warner understands man zero.  Do you seriously think you see things on film that a HOF QB is missing?  Really?

 

His point is - there isn't a free blitzer, there's a spy.  You have a point that our blocking is not bulletproof, but they were good enough to give Allen time for a quick shot all game.  "Manipulate the spy and take the quick shot to the RB" is a realistic option with the blocking time our guys are able to give. 

 

Rolling right out of the pocket to give the spy a clear path at the QB has its own risks.

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

 

Dude!  Warner understands man zero.  Do you seriously think you see things on film that a HOF QB is missing?  Really?

 

His point is - there isn't a free blitzer, there's a spy.  You have a point that our blocking is not bulletproof, but they were good enough to give Allen time for a quick shot all game.  "Manipulate the spy and take the quick shot to the RB" is a realistic option with the blocking time our guys are able to give. 

 

Rolling right out of the pocket to give the spy a clear path at the QB has its own risks.

 

 

How do you 'manipulate the spy' without moving as a QB?

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, Utah John said:

I think a lot of the posters here are missing the point.  The analysis is about the context of the play design, the defensive alignment, and what actions the QB needs to take and when to take them.  These are all valid topics not related to Josh.  A QB without Josh's talents has to make different choices, OK fine.  In Warner's eyes, those other choices are what he was trained to make.  OK fine, he has a yellow jacket and a Lombardi, so he's worth listening to.

 

Agree completely

 

9 minutes ago, Utah John said:

If I was watching this as an average-talent QB at the HS or college level, or even in the pros, the lessons I would take away are how I would be trying to beat defenses by excellent play design, route running, timing, and decision making.  The Bills don't always have the best of any of those characteristics and yet they still are winning.  But they could be more effective.  One more TD drive per game and the Bills become much more dangerous, and that added drive could come about because Josh takes a layup now and then to move the chains.  

 

Exactly.  The Bills punted 5 times and had a strip-sack fumble where Josh was trying to extend the play.  We ended the game with an absolutely BRILLIANT ~6 minute, 15 play drive.  But get points on even 1 or 2 of those drives that ended in punts, and we're just eating clock on that last drive, not depending upon it to win.

 

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

How do you 'manipulate the spy' without moving as a QB?

 

No one said anything about "without moving".

Edited December 20, 2022 by Beck Water

[ProcessTruster]

7 hours ago, DrPJax said:

Warner was a prototypical pocket passer who was immobile. Qb play has changed. Kurt is consistent in his pointing out flaws he always sees with Josh’s style of play. Even Rex Ryan said do not coach Josh “ down” !   Warner does not want to acknowledge his time has passed and I think he only believes his way is the correct way to play qb.  I like Kurt , but his analysis of Josh is always the same , critical analysis and it’s tiresome.   When did Kurt leap for a drive sustaining first down or run 50:yards?  He also had three other hof guys playing with him, including Faulk. 
He is always critical of the Bills ; one must have critiqued his wife’s “ unique” hair styles at some point, as most women from the mafia at least look very feminine while having good football knowledge!  Lol!  Kurt needs to get rid of that dam Michelin coat he wears and accept Josh is the type of qb / athlete who will surpass Warner’s passing stats while also being a complete “ football “ player , not just a pocket passer.
Some guys can’t accept someone being a superior athlete at their  position, Kurt strikes me as that guy. It’s time for guys like him and Bradshaw to move on. The game has given them life changing wealth so like all careers , it’s time for new generational talent. Let’s see them succeed in other fields or just go enjoy your families.  These networks hold on to stale talent and wonder why these pregame shows are criticized.   There should be term limits for these old athletes who played in a different era , just like term limits are needed for politicians like the senate and congress as it has lead to the same ineffective bottom line. 😊🎄

I will never forget Bradshaw saying Josh was not accurate enough and "never would be".  F him.  You don't see him say a word about Allen now, bc he eats crow every time it somes up

[HappyDays]

42 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

It's great Allen completes the "dime" to Morris, and it's 1st and 10 so as long as Allen doesn't throw a pick we have 2 more shots if he doesn't.  But it's no way poor analysis by Warner.  We complain all the time about our drives in the red zone stalling out and having to settle for FG.

 

Warner is correctly pointing out the easy shot the play is designed to scheme open against that defense, and how Allen is taking that very easy shot away from himself by rolling to the R when he doesn't have to.

 

Allen decides at the snap that Morris with the safety in trail is the right read. He never considered Singletary on the play. Both options may have been acceptable, but Allen chooses the one running into the end zone with the coverage man's back to the QB. He immediately identifies that this leverage gives him a perfect window to hit the throw or at worst get DPI. He rolls to the right because that gives him the best angle to make the throw he's decided to make. I was genuinely shocked to hear Kurt Warner accuse him of bailing the pocket early. He's not bailing the pocket, he's setting up his throw.

 

I agree with others that Kurt Warner does a good job explaining route concepts and how a QB should read things. But there's a million people doing these types of videos right now. That single play was such a bad piece of analysis that I decided it's not worth my time.

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

I really truly don't think you folks realize how ridiculous some of these arguments are

 

"...but they could be more effective. One more TD drive per game and the Bills become much more dangerous..."  is outright laughable

 

The Bills are averaging 27.5 ppg right now. One more TD drive per game would put them at 34.5ppg which would be 10th highest scoring offense in NFL history