Greg Cossell not pulling any punches on Bills: "This is not a super talented offense"

[John from Riverside]

Why are you here?

[Don Otreply]

The game is won and lost in the trenches, this old adage is and always will be the truth in American football. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[Eastport bills]

Cosell is not exactly accurate IMO. First, the O-line is serviceable for the type of offense we’re running. Quick release dump offs and underneath throws setting up draws and Josh’s incredible arm talent with downfield passing either in the pocket or when he’s flushed. His long runs are a product of the 5 wide spreads with running lanes open and that gets 1st downs and big gains. I truly believe Knox and Davis are quality weapons and Singletary and Cook have been good either with runs or underneath throws. The slot receiver position  has not been good  since Cole left, but McKenzie had a big game against Detroit and might be better going forward. Hines must be used more because he has tremendous upside. Bottom line, Josh makes everyone better and when plays his best this offense is as good as any. See Rams, Titans, KC, Pittsburgh games as evidence. Even Minn, excluding turnover, the offense was pretty impressive.

[Buffalo Boy]

42 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

  To take this to it’s logical conclusion, vis a vis all the posters complaining about close wins: 

   Brady and co won a bunch of really close regular season games on the way to winning and losing a bunch of close super bowls.

[Fleezoid]

I was high on Dorsey early in the season. Not so much now. Last year the receivers had much more room in the secondary. This year, it seems every pass is tightly contested.  To me that speaks to play design. Maybe 3 parts play design and 1 part play calling. In my opinion It's also bleeding in to Josh's play a bit. You can see it in his expressions at times. Mounting pressure on every individual play. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

That’s fair IMO

[Dopey]

Our line is not a bad line. It's not full of pro bowlers, but what team is? When healthy, we have Dawkins and Brown at tackle. Dawkins is solid out there and Brown is a 2nd year player who has dealt with injury issues(back?). When healthy I think Brown is better at run blocking than pass pro, but can be upgraded. Not giving up on a 2nd year player like some on this board do, but and upgrade would be welcome. Bates and Staffold at guard, with Morse at center. I think the consensus on this board was we didn't want to lose Bates and we didn't. Morse isn't the strongest center out there, but he's also pretty good. To me, that's Morse, Bates and Dawkins playing solid with Staffold not stinking up the joint. to me, the weakest spot is Brown, but I'm not complaining. No team has it all and acting like we should is just ridiculous. This board is so sad at times. It's like y'all aren't enjoying the season. I am. Sucks for you.

 

[US Egg]

30 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

I’m not sure what you are smoking, but you should probably either post on the board or smoke the good stuff, but not both at the same time.

What’s your excuse for your run on obsessive, I’m smarter, stomp on other threads?

 

Hint: It isn’t substance influenced.

[PatsFanNH]

44 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

Lmao he also is probably the greatest QB to ever play the game! He is definitely top 3.  I don’t think it’s fair compare any other QB to what he was able to do. 

[whorlnut]

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

The game is won and lost in the trenches, this old adage is and always will be the truth in American football. 
 

Go Bills!!!

True, but when was the last time yoy heard Beane talk about alway adding to the offensive line?  I ask that because every year you hear him say about always adding the defensive line. It’s clear what his priority is. I’m hoping after this year he sees things a little differently. I am confident he will. 

[Simon]

37 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

I just mentioned this in another thread ....

 

This should be your first clue that you are again flirting with the crusading issue that we've previously discussed and that nobody in this community wants your repetitive negativity spread all over this forum

[iccrewman112]

51 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

he also never played for more than $17M a year with New England. His “peanuts salary” let them afford to keep Logan Mankus, and many other very good offensive lineman.

[loyal2dagame]

4 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

Cosell is not exactly accurate IMO. 

Bottom line, Josh makes everyone better and when plays his best this offense is as good as any. 

These two statements contradict each other.  

We know that Allen, Diggs, Morse, and Dawkins are talented.  If they have off games,  it affects the entire offense.  But as a whole. The other players are completely average or below. 

If it takes Allen to make everyone better,  how talented are the players he's making better compared to how much attention is paid to Allen and Diggs that create the other players opportunities? 

I don't see Davis and McKenzie making catches in double or triple coverage.

It's all relative. 

 

[Success]

3 minutes ago, iccrewman112 said:

he also never played for more than $17M a year with New England. His “peanuts salary” let them afford to keep Logan Mankus, and many other very good offensive lineman.

 

I think Brady and a lot of fans there hated it - but New England was smart to make the line the top priority (over getting top end WR talent).  When you have a great QB, protecting him & giving him time is paramount.  It makes all the difference. That's why Brady was able to succeed w/ mainly middlin' WR corps, outside of a few years where they had players like Moss.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Success

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

53 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

I was going to mention this. you heard it all the time about how they lacked real talent at wr yet he would make them look like superstars. they still could use a better slot where beasely once filled that void. maybe when brown is ready he can fill it?

[Beck Water]

56 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

 

Um, wanna go look at those rosters and come back and say that?

[ngbills]

Who is responsible for this? I give credit to Beane and McD for the D. Even though you could argue it is flawed as well. 

 

The O has been a whiff outside of Allen being drafted and the trade for Diggs. But you could even argue Diggs could just as easily be Jefferson...

 

We want to give credit since the team has been winning. The question is without Allen what is this team? Does a GM/Coach deserve that much credit for getting the QB pick right? Without Allen the next 5 years what does this team look like? Is it any different really than the drought teams? 

[Eastport bills]

9 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Our line is not a bad line. It's not full of pro bowlers, but what team is? When healthy, we have Dawkins and Brown at tackle. Dawkins is solid out there and Brown is a 2nd year player who has dealt with injury issues(back?). When healthy I think Brown is better at run blocking than pass pro, but can be upgraded. Not giving up on a 2nd year player like some on this board do, but and upgrade would be welcome. Bates and Staffold at guard, with Morse at center. I think the consensus on this board was we didn't want to lose Bates and we didn't. Morse isn't the strongest center out there, but he's also pretty good. To me, that's Morse, Bates and Dawkins playing solid with Staffold not stinking up the joint. to me, the weakest spot is Brown, but I'm not complaining. No team has it all and acting like we should is just ridiculous. This board is so sad at times. It's like y'all aren't enjoying the season. I am. Sucks for you.

 

You can’t take these hypercritical sad sacks seriously. These are same humorless folks that ran Cole out of town and tried to do the same to Edmunds. When Josh had a hiccup for a couple of games, they turned on him. Obviously they liked it better when we were bottom feeder for the last 30 years.

[RobbRiddick]

We can always rely on the resident Dolphins fan to keep us up to date on anything negative

[JMM]

He is spot on. This draft MUST have this as first 3 picks, WR, G, C/G not necessarily in that order.

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, JMM said:

He is spot on. This draft MUST have this as first 3 picks, WR, G, C/G not necessarily in that order.

We're going to need a safety too.

[Sharky7337]

While I kinda agree to a degree, I also think it's partly also they don't look talented with the positions we are being put in.

[JMM]

9 minutes ago, iccrewman112 said:

he also never played for more than $17M a year with New England. His “peanuts salary” let them afford to keep Logan Mankus, and many other very good offensive lineman.

A bit early, but I'm already hoping that Josh will be willing to what it takes to help the cap number. Not saying a pay cut, but rolling over into bonus, the usual tricks of the trade.  I think he will, he wants to win more than anything. 

[loyal2dagame]

Just now, FrenchConnection said:

We're going to need a safety too.

Two safeties or a safety also?  🤔

[JMM]

2 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

We're going to need a safety too.

Agree, but those must be first priority,  it's time to take care of our franchise qb. Without him, an all pro safety means what??

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, loyal2dagame said:

Two safeties or a safety also?  🤔

I think one at a time. Poyer gone after this year and Hyde the year after that.

[Eastport bills]

5 minutes ago, loyal2dagame said:

These two statements contradict each other.  

We know that Allen, Diggs, Morse, and Dawkins are talented.  If they have off games,  it affects the entire offense.  But as a whole. The other players are completely average or below. 

If it takes Allen to make everyone better,  how talented are the players he's making better compared to how much attention is paid to Allen and Diggs that create the other players opportunities? 

I don't see Davis and McKenzie making catches in double or triple coverage.

It's all relative. 

 

Who’s average or below? Davis? Knox? Singletary? Were they average or below through the playoffs last year or through the 1st 7 games this year. Do you even watch the games. The reason we lost 2 of the 3 games was our defense. (Jets, Minn) 

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

True, but when was the last time yoy heard Beane talk about alway adding to the offensive line?  I ask that because every year you hear him say about always adding the defensive line. It’s clear what his priority is. I’m hoping after this year he sees things a little differently. I am confident he will. 

 

He said it last January. He said "it starts with protecting Josh." For once he didn't follow through on his January proclamations.

 

After 2018 he said "I did an awful job on offense" and he went out and signed Brown, Beasley, Feliciano, Morse, Spain and drafted Ford, Singletary and Knox. 

After 2019 he said "We need a touchdown maker on offense" and he went out and traded a 1st for Stefon Diggs.

After 2020 he said "we have to get the Quarterback on the ground" and he spent his first two picks of the draft on edge rushers in Rousseau and Basham.

After 2021 he said "It starts with protecting Josh" and his only move to upgrade the oline was to sign a geriatric guard who (in my humble opinion) has always been pretty overrated.

 

No saying every other move after 18, 19 and 20 worked out. Some did, some didn't. But he followed through to a much greater extent than he did last spring. When having said it starts with protecting Josh he instead gave out 3 decent sized FA deals to defensive tackles, despite having a budding star of his own at that spot already. 

 

Again this isn't a hate on Brandon Beane. He is a very good GM. But I think he failed to live up to his own statement on the oline last year and I have been saying this since the spring. 

 

 

 

[ngbills]

1 minute ago, JMM said:

A bit early, but I'm already hoping that Josh will be willing to what it takes to help the cap number. Not saying a pay cut, but rolling over into bonus, the usual tricks of the trade.  I think he will, he wants to win more than anything. 

Maxing your NFL contract vs winning super bowls and becoming a face of the NFL...

 

Give up a little on the contract to win super bowls and you get all that money back and then some through endorsements and opportunities beyond playing. Tom Brady will make all that money and then some when he retires. Wasnt Brady already offered a $375M deal by Fox?

[whorlnut]

4 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

We're going to need a safety too.

Are we?  This is not a good take imo. We are getting Hyde back and Hamlin has filled in nicely. I fully expect to see Hyde and Hamlin as the starters next year. Get a depth and developmental safety in the late rounds. 

[njbuff]

Gabe Davis being inconsistent has knocked this offense down a peg.

 

If he regains that consistency, the Bills O is back to elite status.

[Beck Water]

17 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

Cosell is not exactly accurate IMO. First, the O-line is serviceable for the type of offense we’re running. Quick release dump offs and underneath throws setting up draws

 

Um.  Are we watching the same games?

-not that many draw plays

-in most plays, not that many underneath throws - a lot of the time by design, the routes are often either check downs or deep routes and little in between

-we do have checkdowns almost every play but Josh seldom takes them.  he takes them more than he used to but that's not often

 

Clue: when the leading receivers on the team for yards, all have 10 Y/R (and #2 is pushing 20 Y/R) that's a hint that the offense may not be designed around quick release dump-offs and underneath throws.  The RB only has 30 receptions, and the offense is #24 in the league for YAC, so it's not cuz they're making it up after catch.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, JMM said:

He is spot on. This draft MUST have this as first 3 picks, WR, G, C/G not necessarily in that order.

 

I think Tackle is a big need too. If I could find a franchise LT, I'd be more than happy to move Dion inside to LG. I was open to that last spring. I'd be even more open to it this spring. Otherwise an upgrade at RT would be nice. 

 

Sadly the true elite prospect LTs tend to fly off the board.  

[Dopey]

3 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Who is responsible for this? I give credit to Beane and McD for the D. Even though you could argue it is flawed as well. 

 

The O has been a whiff outside of Allen being drafted and the trade for Diggs. But you could even argue Diggs could just as easily be Jefferson...

 

1)We want to give credit since the team has been winning. 2)The question is without Allen what is this team? 3) Does a GM/Coach deserve that much credit for getting the QB pick right? 4)Without Allen the next 5 years what does this team look like? Is it any different really than the drought teams? 

1) Want?! We SHOULD give credit. 

2) The same as any other NFL team that doesn't have a franchise QB. 

3) I'm pretty sure you would blame the GM/Coach if they hadn't gotten the QB pick right. So why wouldn't the GM/Coach deserve credit? It's like they can't win with some fans. All I could do is shake my head to the bolded. 

4) Kinda like #2. What would any team look like if they all of a sudden lose their franchise QB? "Without Allen the next 5 years" seems to imply a sudden loss of our QB.

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He said it last January. He said "it starts with protecting Josh." For once he didn't follow through on his January proclamations.

 

After 2018 he said "I did an awful job on offense" and he went out and signed Brown, Beasley, Feliciano, Morse, Spain and drafted Ford, Singletary and Knox. 

After 2019 he said "We need a touchdown maker on offense" and he went out and traded a 1st for Stefon Diggs.

After 2020 he said "we have to get the Quarterback on the ground" and he spent his first two picks of the draft on edge rushers in Rousseau and Basham.

After 2021 he said "It starts with protecting Josh" and his only move to upgrade the oline was to sign a geriatric guard who (in my humble opinion) has always been pretty overrated.

 

No saying every other move after 18, 19 and 20 worked out. Some did, some didn't. But he followed through to a much greater extent than he did last spring. When having said it starts with protecting Josh he instead gave out 3 decent sized FA deals to defensive tackles, despite having a budding star of his own at that spot already. 

 

Again this isn't a hate on Brandon Beane. He is a very good GM. But I think he failed to live up to his own statement on the oline last year and I have been saying this since the spring.

 

This.

 

To be fair, the first thing out of Beane's mouth after 2021 was "we need a closer on defense" "we didn't affect the QB enough" and he spent the Big Splash on Von Miller.

 

 

[loyal2dagame]

6 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

Who’s average or below? Davis? Knox? Singletary? Were they average or below through the playoffs last year or through the 1st 7 games this year. Do you even watch the games. The reason we lost 2 of the 3 games was our defense. (Jets, Minn) 

Peerless Price looked like a 1B next to Eric Moulds, but when he was the 1A in Atlanta, he didn't have the talent to produce the same.  

That's the point I'm making,  and that's how i took what Cosell is saying. 

Sure superstar players make other players look good, but if the natural talent wasn't there to begin with, what do you have? 

[goober]

1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Yeah but he had Belichik's defense. We have McD/Frazier and we all know how script plays out against good teams and QB's when it matters in the playoffs.

 

I just mentioned this in another thread about the Dolphins and their quick turnaround under McDaniel, but just think where this team could be next year if the Pegulas aren't afraid to make a bold move in terms of GM/HC change. The foundation is there with a franchise QB and you get a coach that runs a real defense and make some tweaks offensively and this team can truly ascend next year even in a monster that this division is becoming.

Oh stop flapping your gills you filthy fish

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

He had the officials on his side.

[iccrewman112]

8 minutes ago, JMM said:

A bit early, but I'm already hoping that Josh will be willing to what it takes to help the cap number. Not saying a pay cut, but rolling over into bonus, the usual tricks of the trade.  I think he will, he wants to win more than anything. 

there was no hometown discount on the contract, which I thought there would have been after all the donations and such.

 

I half wanted a 15 year 300M fully guaranteed contract. Never bad against the cap and paid well into his retirement, but it doesn’t ever allow for a trade.

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He said it last January. He said "it starts with protecting Josh." For once he didn't follow through on his January proclamations.

 

After 2018 he said "I did an awful job on offense" and he went out and signed Brown, Beasley, Feliciano, Morse, Spain and drafted Ford, Singletary and Knox. 

After 2019 he said "We need a touchdown maker on offense" and he went out and traded a 1st for Stefon Diggs.

After 2020 he said "we have to get the Quarterback on the ground" and he spent his first two picks of the draft on edge rushers in Rousseau and Basham.

After 2021 he said "It starts with protecting Josh" and his only move to upgrade the oline was to sign a geriatric guard who (in my humble opinion) has always been pretty overrated.

 

No saying every other move after 18, 19 and 20 worked out. Some did, some didn't. But he followed through to a much greater extent than he did last spring. When having said it starts with protecting Josh he instead gave out 3 decent sized FA deals to defensive tackles, despite having a budding star of his own at that spot already. 

 

Again this isn't a hate on Brandon Beane. He is a very good GM. But I think he failed to live up to his own statement on the oline last year and I have been saying this since the spring. 

 

 

 

OL is the hardest position group to fill. You have to massively overpay in FA and they are hard to project coming out of college. Also, the best OTs (the ones that are so good that they project easily) tend to go in the first half of the first round. So, listening to Greg Cossell and the negative posters (and resident Dolphins' fan) here on TBD that are luxuriating in his podcast hot take, the best course of action is for the Bills to lose out so that they can finish 8-9 and get that pick. Someone call up WGR and suggest that. They'll love that take.