The defense sucked....again

[Nextmanup]

7 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

There is no excuse for how poorly Allen is playing. A fumbled snap on the goal line??? That is high school level nonsense. He has been reckless with the ball all year.

This is true, but TEAM execution has been incredibly sloppy all year long too! It's often been masked b/c we had a comfortable lead against bad teams.

 

But it does matter and it WILL bite you come playoff time, when only solid teams are playing.

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

7 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Missing Pieces

 

Poyer

Hyde

Edmunds (2nd half)

White

Elam

Groot

 

Bills Starting Secondary Today:

 

- 6th Rd CB Rookie!

- 6th Rd S

- 7th Rd CB

- Undrafted S (First start)

 

Yet they still came up with huge stops (4th and goal, 3 points in OT) and created multiple take aways.

 

Be mad that we gave up 30 points in regulation all you want, but don’t ignore the fact they were severely hampered by injury and their coaching staff refused to try and do anything brazen to  create an advantage

Coaches like ol Les F need to do a better job of adjusting 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Did you notice Edmunds out for the second half? 😆 🤣 

 

💥💥💥Boom!

 

There, I said... Have fun with that one "Edmunds sucks" people.

 

Actually, the D did it's job, they bent, but didn't break... Stopped them and had game won. Offensive fumbled in their own end zone.  

 

D played decent. So far all 3 losses were for a combined: 8 points.

 

Vikings got lucky and Bills snake bit (again).

Edited November 14, 2022 by ExiledInIllinois

[JoshAllin]

The way the D was built early on the season was meant to be shutting teams down in the 13pt per game range. I don't see how the bills thinks a bunch of no name backups are enough to replace the injured backfield

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, motorj said:

The way the D was built early on the season was meant to be shutting teams down in the 13pt per game range. I don't see how the bills thinks a bunch of no name backups are enough to replace the injured backfield

So you're saying they'll blow a ton more resources on the defense this off-season?

 

Yay 

[billsfan714]

Didnt we give up over 500 yards?

[Greg S]

There are so many plays we can point to in the loss but to me it was the Cook 81-yard TD run that changed the game. Bills just kicked a FG go up 27-10 with 1:51 left in the 3rd quarter. Not 1st half, not early or midway thru the 3rd quarter but late 3rd quarter they have a three-score lead. Even if the Vikings score on that drive at least make them do it in 10 plays or so and use clock. No, they score instantly and now the lead is cut to 10 and still in the 3rd quarter. The Bills never had control of the game or momentum from that point on. Even when they came back to tie it at 30 I still didn't feel good because OT is always a crap shoot.

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Absolutely not, but I definitely believe Tre takes that as a pick. 

 

Nah, Tre's not taking that ball away from Jefferson.

9 hours ago, MPT said:

 

Lewis had two hands on the ball and let Jefferson rip it away with one hand while falling backwards. It was 100% on Lewis.

 

there was never a point where there were not 3 hands on the ball.  Jefferson in front of Lewis had position to pull it away.  It would have been a n insane INT if Lewis came down with it.

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

The defense is missing White, Hyde, Poyer, Elam, Rousseau and now Edmunds. 

That is over half the starters. 

I'm not saying the defense is great, but they at least have an excuse. 

There is no excuse for how poorly Allen is playing. A fumbled snap on the goal line??? That is high school level nonsense. He has been reckless with the ball all year.

This

[BillMafia716ix]

We’re missing almost half the defense. I’m not too concerned about the D. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 minutes ago, BillMafia716ix said:

We’re missing almost half the defense. I’m not too concerned about the D. 

I really feel like I’m takin crazy pills here lol like I get being disappointed after a loss and wanting to flame everybody but missing 5 or 6 all pro caliber defensive players in the same game is not ‘normal’ by any means.  Yet people keep saying ‘every team has injuries’. 
 

yea sure the offense could’ve bailed them out twice in a row and they failed spectacularly but this defense is about to get a ton of help. The defense essentially won the game on an epic goal line stand with a bunch of backups and practice squad level guys.  
 

If we end up missing out on the division no one will want to play us as the 6 or 7 seed imo.  

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Bermuda Triangle]

1 hour ago, billsfan714 said:

Didnt we give up over 500 yards?

Close....but we've been told that yards don't matter.

9 hours ago, gobills404 said:

The defense allowed 23 points in regulation, which is below the Vikings season average and less than what the Bills had AT HALFTIME. Allen gave this game away, plain and simple.

26 points allowed overall, which is above the Vikes' season average

Vikes were above their season averages in 3rd down conversion %, passing yards and rushing yards (and obviously, total yards), and were at their average in 4th down  conversion %.

When was the last Vikings punt?

14 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I really feel like I’m takin crazy pills here lol like I get being disappointed after a loss and wanting to flame everybody but missing 5 or 6 all pro caliber defensive players in the same game is not ‘normal’ by any means.  Yet people keep saying ‘every team has injuries’. 
 

yea sure the offense could’ve bailed them out twice in a row and they failed spectacularly but this defense is about to get a ton of help. The defense essentially won the game on an epic goal line stand with a bunch of backups and practice squad level guys.  
 

If we end up missing out on the division no one will want to play us as the 6 or 7 seed imo.  

Who?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Close....but we've been told that yards don't matter.

26 points allowed overall, which is above the Vikes' season average

Vikes were above their season averages in 3rd down conversion %, passing yards and rushing yards (and obviously, total yards), and were at their average in 4th down  conversion %.

When was the last Vikings punt?

Who?

Rousseau who is quietly playing out of his mind

 

poyer

 

i wouldn’t count edmunds as all pro caliber but he is significantly better than his replacement so same kind of deal…when edmunds went down it was like a switch flipped

 

tre white

 

Hyde who isn’t returning but when another safety gets hurt in the same game and poyer is already missing it becomes relevant

 

Previous week against the jets it was a little more valid as we were missing a lot of those guys and Milano instead of edmunds.  
 

a bit of hyperbole on my part obviously but when people say ‘every team has injuries’ it’s usually a team missing 1 or 2 high impact players then some players where there isn’t a big dropoff in the depth chart like us missing Elam.  We have just been snake bitten this year and all the wrong guys are getting banged up on the defensive side 

 

 

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Nah, Tre's not taking that ball away from Jefferson.

 

there was never a point where there were not 3 hands on the ball.  Jefferson in front of Lewis had position to pull it away.  It would have been a n insane INT if Lewis came down with it.

You may be correct, but a 6’ 195 lb corner has a better shot of making that play than a 5’9” 180 pound corner.  It definitely wouldn’t have been an insane play either, just an excellent  interception that gets made by someone several times a season. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Junction said:

You may be correct, but a 6’ 195 lb corner has a better shot of making that play than a 5’9” 180 pound corner.  It definitely wouldn’t have been an insane play either, just an excellent  interception that gets made by someone several times a season. 

 

It wasn't a wrestling match.  Anyway, Jefferson is 6'1", 203.  Tre had 1 int in 2021 and hasn't played in a year.

[DCofNC]

11 hours ago, zow2 said:

I was at the game but barely noticed Von. Did he do anything?! There were so many drop backs by Cousins today and i saw him

hardly pressured.  OT it got a little better. but he still threaded passes.

He hit Cousins while throwing, caused an opportunity and got a sack late in the game.  He had some missed opportunities, on purely based on lack of effort, he quit on one play and wound up a few steps away from Cousins, but was flat footed.  Would have had an easy sack/possible strip sack. 

[without a drought]

3 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

He hit Cousins while throwing, caused an opportunity and got a sack late in the game.  He had some missed opportunities, on purely based on lack of effort, he quit on one play and wound up a few steps away from Cousins, but was flat footed.  Would have had an easy sack/possible strip sack. 

There were a few players who thought the ball was already out on the illegal men down field play. 

[Billz4ever]

11 hours ago, ALLinALLEN said:

The D has been decimated with injuries but I'm still so confused as to the plan and the play of the guys up front.

 

Oliver, Miller, Epenesa, Phillips, Lawson, Settle, and Boogie and NOBODY can get pressure enough to make plays or force throws? And Leslie and sean (the D whisperer) dont have the brains to maybe adjust the scheme or plan when 6 defensive back/lb's are out? It's mind blowing no adjustments have been made there.

 

Will probably throw a 1st round pick there again next year thinking that'll solve it...

Most of that is due to the fact Frazier rarely blitzes and seems to be fine with rushing 4 and not getting pressure.  Tells me he's scared to death of his secondary and thinks we need 7 in coverage every play.

[HoofHearted]

13 hours ago, ALLinALLEN said:

The D has been decimated with injuries but I'm still so confused as to the plan and the play of the guys up front.

 

Oliver, Miller, Epenesa, Phillips, Lawson, Settle, and Boogie and NOBODY can get pressure enough to make plays or force throws? And Leslie and sean (the D whisperer) dont have the brains to maybe adjust the scheme or plan when 6 defensive back/lb's are out? It's mind blowing no adjustments have been made there.

 

Will probably throw a 1st round pick there again next year thinking that'll solve it...

 

What is the scheme adjustment to be made in this situation? We're starting back-ups in over half of our defense - it is what it is. Keep everything in front of you and don't allow the big play.

13 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

most of the threads here seem to be about Allen and his horrid play of late (and I'll be the first to say that he has been really bad), but is the defense getting yet ANOTHER free pass today?

 

The Vikes had their highest yardage output of the season today and converted countless 3rd & 4th and long plays.  I frankly don't even remember the last time Minnesota punted.    Did anyone honestly think that the D would force a punt in OT?  

 

Up 27-10 late in the third quarter, the Vikes gash the Bills for an 81-yard TD (let me guess, Sean - bad run fit, and you'll get that fixed!), score a TD on their next drive, and then march 75 yards, only to get stopped on 4th and goal from the 1.  In OT, they fairly easily drove downfield for the GW FG.

 

Is this the mark of a good defense?

 

Missed tackle.

[ALLinALLEN]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

What is the scheme adjustment to be made in this situation? We're starting back-ups in over half of our defense - it is what it is. Keep everything in front of you and don't allow the big play.

 

Missed tackle.

 

 

I would start by maybe blitzing an immobile QB to force more passes into severely inexperienced DB's who struggle to cover. That would be a pretty easy start. But Frazier will die on the "I dont blitz" hill for some reason. 

 

 

[HoofHearted]

13 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

The 80 yard touchdown run was inexcusable. You can’t give up that type of play on the ground with a lead. If the opponent is going to run, at least make them use up some clock. The defense is quite depleted, but we constantly give up big runs. It reminded me of the long run Taylor had for the Colts when we got crushed at home last season. Being dominated by the run and giving up long runs has been a theme, regardless of who’s on the field. That’s a scheme/coaching issue imo. 

It's been a tackling issue. Scheme hasn't been the problem.

3 minutes ago, ALLinALLEN said:

 

 

I would start by maybe blitzing an immobile QB to force more passes into severely inexperienced DB's who struggle to cover. That would be a pretty easy start. But Frazier will die on the "I dont blitz" hill for some reason. 

 

 

So you want to put our 6th round, 7th round, and undrafted back-up DBs in 1 on 1 man coverage?

 

EDIT: We tried this and got burned on it multiple times, btw.

Edited November 14, 2022 by HoofHearted

[HoofHearted]

12 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

3rd year in a tow allowing a 70 yard plus run I believe.  All season the ru. D has been super soft.  No adjustment by Frazier or McD.  

 

What's the adjustment that should be made to stop that run yesterday?

12 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

poor fundamentals all over the secondary.  On Jefferson’s TD over Jackson, Jackson had his back to the ball the whole time

When you are out of phase this is what is taught - play the receivers hands not the ball.

[LABILLBACKER]

17 minutes ago, ALLinALLEN said:

 

 

I would start by maybe blitzing an immobile QB to force more passes into severely inexperienced DB's who struggle to cover. That would be a pretty easy start. But Frazier will die on the "I dont blitz" hill for some reason. 

 

 

Frazier is an old stubborn fool who regardless of the opponent or situation  will always go to his tired old rush 4 philosophy. It didn't work in Houston. It didn't work with 13 seconds and it didn't work yesterday. With as horrible as Josh played,  30 points in the NFL should be enough. But McD & Leslie are joined at the hip. 

[billsbackto81]

14 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

most of the threads here seem to be about Allen and his horrid play of late (and I'll be the first to say that he has been really bad), but is the defense getting yet ANOTHER free pass today?

 

The Vikes had their highest yardage output of the season today and converted countless 3rd & 4th and long plays.  I frankly don't even remember the last time Minnesota punted.    Did anyone honestly think that the D would force a punt in OT?  

 

Up 27-10 late in the third quarter, the Vikes gash the Bills for an 81-yard TD (let me guess, Sean - bad run fit, and you'll get that fixed!), score a TD on their next drive, and then march 75 yards, only to get stopped on 4th and goal from the 1.  In OT, they fairly easily drove downfield for the GW FG.

 

Is this the mark of a good defense?

#1 Defense is the narrative the last 2 years and I'm sick of it. Nobody with eyes and a mediocre football IQ can tell me this is a #1 Defense.

 

Allen and the offense more times than not jumped out to a two score lead only to watch Frazier and his highly touted D let it slowly erode. Allen after doing his part is then tasked to ramp up the offense again after the other team has made adjustments. 

 

You would think a Top defense can protect a two score lead especially when your offense scored 27 points before the 4th quarter. An 80 yard TD run, multiple 4th down conversions including the catch of the year. Stupid PIs and USP conduct calls. #1 D? 😂

 

You want to make excuses like half the starters are out, ok it's a valid point. But these are professionals, we're not asking you to hold a 3 point lead with 5 minutes left.

 

This team is not a #1 D even when 100% healthy. They're good enough but far from dominant.

[HoofHearted]

10 hours ago, BillsFan692 said:

Someone please explain to me why a QB s sneak (a play allen has already said he doss not like) is the best option for play call on 1st down from your own half yard line?

 

Seems scary AF to me. Someone explain it to me like I am a 2 year old plz

It's the quickest hitting play with the least amount of chance to allow a defender to shoot a gap for a TFL and the ball is only exchanged once.

[transient]

14 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Come on.  It's not "inexplicable".  That ball was sailing over Jeffersons head--naturally the DB is going to put his hands together thinking he's catching an INT.  Jefferson makes an insane catch.  That's not one I'm putting on Lewis.  

You got me. There's an "explanation". Maybe I should have said, under the circumstances, the decision to go for the INT was indefensible. It was the single most boneheaded play in a game full of them, in my opinion, and it cost them the game. If the ball falls to the turf, as it should have, the game was over. It showed a total lack of situational awareness.

[Process]

2 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Frazier is an old stubborn fool who regardless of the opponent or situation  will always go to his tired old rush 4 philosophy. It didn't work in Houston. It didn't work with 13 seconds and it didn't work yesterday. With as horrible as Josh played,  30 points in the NFL should be enough. But McD & Leslie are joined at the hip. 

It was enough. Defense held them to 23 points in regulation despite missing 5 starters.

[Jauronimo]

At least we have a 20 man defensive line rotation to keep everyone fresh...

Edited November 14, 2022 by Jauronimo

[HoofHearted]

4 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Frazier is an old stubborn fool who regardless of the opponent or situation  will always go to his tired old rush 4 philosophy. It didn't work in Houston. It didn't work with 13 seconds and it didn't work yesterday. With as horrible as Josh played,  30 points in the NFL should be enough. But McD & Leslie are joined at the hip. 

 

They did blitz yesterday. Put our back-up DBs in man coverage. It didn't work out real well as I'm sure you could already figure.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

#1 Defense is the narrative the last 2 years and I'm sick of it. Nobody with eyes and a mediocre football IQ can tell me this is a #1 Defense.

 

Allen and the offense more times than not jumped out to a two score lead only to watch Frazier and his highly touted D let it slowly erode. Allen after doing his part is then tasked to ramp up the offense again after the other team has made adjustments. 

 

You would think a Top defense can protect a two score lead especially when your offense scored 27 points before the 4th quarter. An 80 yard TD run, multiple 4th down conversions including the catch of the year. Stupid PIs and USP conduct calls. #1 D? 😂

 

You want to make excuses like half the starters are out, ok it's a valid point. But these are professionals, we're not asking you to hold a 3 point lead with 5 minutes left.

 

This team is not a #1 D even when 100% healthy. They're good enough but far from dominant.

We're not a top 10 defense.  I don't care what the stats and analytics say. Maybe with 100% of our defense healthy but that hasn't been the case this year and missing Tre last year.

[cgg716]

41 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

It's been a tackling issue. Scheme hasn't been the problem.

So you want to put our 6th round, 7th round, and undrafted back-up DBs in 1 on 1 man coverage?

 

EDIT: We tried this and got burned on it multiple times, btw.

You have 2 choices, man for a shorter window, or a soft zone and a prayer that these guys can cover extended plays, this defense lacks the flexibility for any middle, which is why good offenses have torched it for years 

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

You have 2 choices, man for a shorter window, or a soft zone and a prayer that these guys can cover extended plays, this defense lacks the flexibility for any middle, which is why good offenses have torched it for years 

We bring fire zones all the time (which is this "middle ground" you speak of).

[cgg716]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

We bring fire zones all the time (which is this "middle ground" you speak of).

Up 20 maybe... and certainly not all the time, see the blitz rate

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, cgg716 said:

Up 20 maybe... and certainly not all the time, see the blitz rate

 

The vast majority of our blitzes are fire zones, actually.

[mjt328]

I would like to blame it on the injuries.  

But games like yesterday have become the hallmark of a Sean McDermott/Leslie Frazier defense.

 

Sure, they can beat-up on all the crappy QBs.  They have no problem capitalizing with sacks/turnovers when the opponent is playing from behind, and desperate to push the ball downfield.  At the end of the season, they can boast about another Top 5 ranking.  Hooray.  It's all just fools gold.

 

Their run defense is awful again.  They continue to get blown off the line, and miss tackles.  

They had yet another mental mistake on 3rd/4th and a mile, somehow failing AGAIN to knock the ball to the ground.

And before anyone praises them for the 4th down stop at the end... the refs missed them having 12 men on the field.

 

[Mr. WEO]

36 minutes ago, transient said:

You got me. There's an "explanation". Maybe I should have said, under the circumstances, the decision to go for the INT was indefensible. It was the single most boneheaded play in a game full of them, in my opinion, and it cost them the game. If the ball falls to the turf, as it should have, the game was over. It showed a total lack of situational awareness.

 

He comes over the top of Jefferson's head to knock the ball out, he thinking he gets a PI.  

 

Not even close to the most boneheaded play:  the QB sneak choice and either of Josh's RZ INTs tossed right to Defenders are the top 3. 

[cgg716]

10 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

The vast majority of our blitzes are fire zones, actually.

And this stuff isn't new, last year was probably the best version of this defense. 299 points allowed in 17 games. 17.5 per. But they still gave up, 41, 34, and 33 respectively. In losses to contending teams. Promptly followed by 42 in the KC loss, I don't need a defense to stop Davis Mills, but players like Mahomes 

[transient]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He comes over the top of Jefferson's head to knock the ball out, he thinking he gets a PI.  

 

Not even close to the most boneheaded play:  the QB sneak choice and either of Josh's RZ INTs tossed right to Defenders are the top 3. 

I don't know what play you were watching or what you think you saw, but he had every opportunity to knock the ball down and was in the perfect position to do it. The only reason Jefferson was even able to make that catch was because of the way Lewis played it going for the INT. Lewis even lamented that he DIDN'T try to bat the ball down after the fact. It was 4th down. Even if it wouldn't have ended the game, which it would have, why the hell would you try to intercept it anyway. In the best case scenario he catches it and it costs the team 30 yards in field position. It's an inexcusable mistake in the best of circumstances, and yesterday it cost them the game. 

 

 

[dave mcbride]

Bills had 12 men on the field for the first and goal from the 2 play in OT; it’s the play where Cook lost three yards. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35026502/bills-had-12-men-field-crucial-ot-play-vs-vikings

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, transient said:

I don't know what play you were watching or what you think you saw, but he had every opportunity to knock the ball down and was in the perfect position to do it. The only reason Jefferson was even able to make that catch was because of the way Lewis played it going for the INT. Lewis even lamented that he DIDN'T try to bat the ball down after the fact. It was 4th down. Even if it wouldn't have ended the game, which it would have, why the hell would you try to intercept it anyway. In the best case scenario he catches it and it costs the team 30 yards in field position. It's an inexcusable mistake in the best of circumstances, and yesterday it cost them the game. 

 

 

 

 

Huh?

 

It clearly did not cost them the game as the the Vikings didn't score!  They turned it over on downs (aided by the Bills D with 12 men on the field).  

 

The Bills had 2 more possessions in regulation--the one leading, one behind.  The fumble in the EZ cost them the game in regulation.

 

The lazy int toss by Josh cost them the game in OT.

 

What are you talking about?