Training Camp practice 8/8

[AuntieEm]

3 hours ago, stevewin said:

Regarding Josh's playing time - one thing people should realize is it is possible for Josh to play with minimal risk of injury based on the plays they call.  Especially if one thing they want to work on is communication with Dorsey, they can do a lot of runs and quick hitting passes w/ max protect which gives him reps but doesn't put him at risk for being hit

  

   And Josh Allen is one of the top faces of the NFL now.  Fans across the league follow what news is generated about him.  They are certainly going to protect Josh via the refs at every opportunity.  The would be no lack of response to a cheap shot on Josh Allen like when Gronk took his shot at White. If anyone attempted that on Allen. I'd bet that player would be suspended by the league and if there were any injury because of it well then i d fear there would be numerous casualties in the slugfest that would ensue.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by AuntieEm

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is gonna be tough, nothing against him, but this wont be an easy roster to make. 

 

Obviously, Diggs and Davis are going no where, and neither is Shakir given there is 0% chance they could successfully stash him on the PS, not to mention, he has been having an outstanding camp too.  McKenzie as well, he isn't likely going anywhere at this point unless Beane decides he needs to make a trade to make room for someone, then McKenzie might be the only guy who would have any trade value (as they are not trading Davis, Diggs, or Shakir).  But other than that, its safe to pencil these 4 in.  

 

Then you probably still have Crowder and potentially a KR specialist.  Recently McKenzie and even Shakir have taken snaps as the primary returner, so if one of them locks down the job as a primary returner, then that makes the path easier for Hodgins to make the roster.  But we already know they were not happy with McKenzie last year as a returner, and while Shakir did some in college, it wasn't what he was known for.  

 

So if we keep those 4 above, plus Crowder and a KR guy, that would mean we would have to keep 7 WRs for Hodgins to have a chance to make the team.  And that 7th spot will likely also have to be someone who can prove they can be a reliable contributor on ST too.  So not only is Hodgins competing as a WR against guys like Tavon, Stevenson, Kumerow, Pau'u, etc...he also competing to show he can be good on ST, something Kumerow for example has already proven he can be.  

 

Ive always liked Hodgins potential, so be cool to see him keep growing and make the team.  But assuming there are no injuries or surprise cuts/trades at WR, then he likely needs to see us keep 7 to a real chance to make this team, and at the same time prove he can be relied upon on ST.  

I haven't seen him, so I really don't know, but the problem is what does Hodgins add?   If it turns out that he's an excellent ST guy, well, that would help his cause a lot.  But if you take a three-year look at the roster, Diggs, Davis, and Shakir will still be on the roster, and Hodgins probably isn't taking snaps from any of those three.   At that point, Hodgins will be in his sixth season, and by then the Bills will have a better choice to replace Diggs, if Diggs starts to slide.   

 

So, in the short term, what is he?  Depth for Diggs-Davis-McKenzie-Crowder-Shakir?   I think he has stand out for the next three weeks to win that job, either receiving or special teams, and ideally both.  

 

I also think Shakir will be the punt returner by the end of the season.   He's shown very good hands, and he seems smart and dependable.  I think McKenzie will start the season returning, and Shakir will continue to jugs work and practice in the backup KR role.  If McKenzie falters, Shakier will be the guy.  

[Beck Water]

55 minutes ago, stevewin said:

The D is pissed they were told to lay down for the red and blue practice 😛 

 

I don't think they were "told to lay down", but I think the player participation was managed to "put their second best foot forward"

 

I had the same thought that the D read the press clippings and it "put a little ***** in their grits"

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, hemma said:

 

Kumerow was on O for 116 snaps, ran 46 routes, was targeted 6 times, caught 2 for a total of 28 yards, had 1 drop that was a likely TD.

—- I don’t think his 28 yards on offense will be missed.

 

He played 15 games on STs and made 5 solo tackles, which was 6th on the team.  

There was a day when 5 tackles would have made him an  ST ‘must keep’, but I think those days are behind us.

 

I think Hodgins offers more upside than 28 yards and I think there are others that could kick in as much or more than 1 tackle every third game.

 

just my opinion.  I guess we’ll see.

 

 

 

ST stats don't at all tell the story on contributions.  The coaches have continuously praised Kumerows ST contributions where each player has a specific role on every kick.  Containing your lane and forcing the returner into the coverage to force a tackle is just as important, if not more important than the player who actually gets credited with the tackle most the time.  The vast majority of ST tackles are a direct result of not giving a pathway for the runner to find a lane.   

 

Kumerow without question has a leg up on Hodgins from a ST perspective.  So if it came down to Kumerow or Hodgins, it wont matter if they feel Hodgins offers more as a WR that will never see the field, it will absolutely come down to whether or not they believe Hodgins can contribute on ST and if they have someone who can fill Kumerows role.  Not to mention, Kumerow doesn't have the same injury concerns Hodgins has.  

 

To show just how meaningless these lower bench WR's are in terms of offensive contributions...As essentially the 5th WR on the depth chart the last 2 years, everyones favorite McKenzie has averaged just 25 receptions for 240 yards a SEASON as a backup slot WR, with blazing speed, and playing in the number 1 offense in the AFC the last 2 years.  Last year, outside the NE game, McKenzie had just 9 rec and 53 yards total in the other 16 games of the year.  Nobody else behind him had even 100 yards on the season.

 

This year, we likely have Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, Shakir, Crowder making up the top 5 WR's, of which someone is barely going to have any production.  The 6th and 7th WRs (if we keep 7) wont likely see the field as a receiver much at all.  Not to mention we have Cook which will likely increase the total targets to RB's this year, plus Knox and Howard playing a lot of 2 TE sets.  

 

So whoever the 6th and 7th WR's are (if we even keep 7) will definitely be guys who they feel can be good and reliable ST players too.  There is a reason why they tell these guys deeper down the bench across the roster that if you want to make this team you do it on ST.  

Edited August 8, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I haven't seen him, so I really don't know, but the problem is what does Hodgins add?   If it turns out that he's an excellent ST guy, well, that would help his cause a lot.  But if you take a three-year look at the roster, Diggs, Davis, and Shakir will still be on the roster, and Hodgins probably isn't taking snaps from any of those three.   At that point, Hodgins will be in his sixth season, and by then the Bills will have a better choice to replace Diggs, if Diggs starts to slide.   

 

So, in the short term, what is he?  Depth for Diggs-Davis-McKenzie-Crowder-Shakir?   I think he has stand out for the next three weeks to win that job, either receiving or special teams, and ideally both.  

 

I also think Shakir will be the punt returner by the end of the season.   He's shown very good hands, and he seems smart and dependable.  I think McKenzie will start the season returning, and Shakir will continue to jugs work and practice in the backup KR role.  If McKenzie falters, Shakier will be the guy.  

 

I put this out there: I'm not 100% persuaded Crowder makes the team

[Shaw66]

I'm not, either, but he's the only really proven slot receiver on the team.  McKenzie seems to be the presumptive starter now, but Shakir is the only other guy who may be suited to play the slot effectively, and the Bills have to be really excited about him to slot him into that role to start the season.  Maybe he can be the backup slot guy and make Crowder expendable, but that would be unusual for McDermott, who likes his veterans. 

[DCofNC]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not, either, but he's the only really proven slot receiver on the team.  McKenzie seems to be the presumptive starter now, but Shakir is the only other guy who may be suited to play the slot effectively, and the Bills have to be really excited about him to slot him into that role to start the season.  Maybe he can be the backup slot guy and make Crowder expendable, but that would be unusual for McDermott, who likes his veterans. 

I’d be pretty surprised if Crowder doesn’t make it, he got a decent contract to come in and has a track record of pretty high level play.  Maybe McKenzie really is taking over the job and not letting him win, which would be great.  Shakir sounds like a guy they won’t be able to stash and they like, so I guess anything is possible.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

 

[John from Riverside]

40 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I put this out there: I'm not 100% persuaded Crowder makes the team

Are you thinking Hodgins for Crowder?

 

 

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

 

 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

4 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

 

Peter Parker

 

Case Keenum

 

Tomato

 

Tomato

[Warcodered]

 

 

[julian]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

I don’t think anyone should be worried about the defense… they are absolutely stacked… if the team struggles at times this year it will due to offensive struggles IMO.

If you’re correct… championship !!!

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, AmishRifle said:

Completely agree.

 

My other thought on this is why give the Colts a look at Allen?  The Colts are a potential playoff game for the Bills this year.  I’d rather risk showing Allen versus Denver is PreSeason Week 2  than giving the Colts anything. 

Why do you think the Colts won’t have eyes on all three preseason games, and every game there after? 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

14 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

 

[Mango]

3 hours ago, muppy said:

70-75 yard punt. Can you imagine this guys kicks at high altitude like say Denver? LOL

lol someone needs to gift #17 a Harley. I mean he would look great anywhere. But put him on a bike like that I'd frame it for my wall just sayin' 🙂

 

Can I get you a tissue or a tube sock? 

[Beck Water]

15 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Are you thinking Hodgins for Crowder?

 

I think it's possible.  Of course I'm just going on our limited reports, but we don't seem to be hearing much buzz about Crowder.

[BuffaninSarasota]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think it's possible.  Of course I'm just going on our limited reports, but we don't seem to be hearing much buzz about Crowder.

 

Hodgins is 6'3", 200 lbs - he's not a slot receiver

[Beck Water]

47 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not, either, but he's the only really proven slot receiver on the team.  McKenzie seems to be the presumptive starter now, but Shakir is the only other guy who may be suited to play the slot effectively, and the Bills have to be really excited about him to slot him into that role to start the season.  Maybe he can be the backup slot guy and make Crowder expendable, but that would be unusual for McDermott, who likes his veterans. 

 

So there's that, but there's also the point that with Sanders gone, who is backing Diggs and Davis up for the outside receiver role?  Maybe Shakir can do it, but that has him backing up the slot and outside roles.

 

So my thinking is if Hodgins has really come on, while Crowder just doesn't look like he's "getting it" enough to be Mr Reliable *in this system*, that could be a path for him.

 

Now....if Crowder is looking like Mr Reliable on punt returns, that changes the dynamics again with Stevenson likely out of the picture.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Beck Water

[Warcodered]

 

[unbillievable]

Crowder can still beat out Hodgins because of his versatility to play outside and the slot. Hodgins has been an outside only reciever.

 

Also, I don't see Hodgins getting playing time unless it's an emergency. Crowder can rotate in for Davis, Diggs, and Mckenzie.

 

 

 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This is gonna be tough, nothing against him, but this wont be an easy roster to make. 

 

Obviously, Diggs and Davis are going no where, and neither is Shakir given there is 0% chance they could successfully stash him on the PS, not to mention, he has been having an outstanding camp too.  McKenzie as well, he isn't likely going anywhere at this point unless Beane decides he needs to make a trade to make room for someone, then McKenzie might be the only guy who would have any trade value (as they are not trading Davis, Diggs, or Shakir).  But other than that, its safe to pencil these 4 in.  

 

Then you probably still have Crowder and potentially a KR specialist.  Recently McKenzie and even Shakir have taken snaps as the primary returner, so if one of them locks down the job as a primary returner, then that makes the path easier for Hodgins to make the roster.  But we already know they were not happy with McKenzie last year as a returner, and while Shakir did some in college, it wasn't what he was known for.  

 

So if we keep those 4 above, plus Crowder and a KR guy, that would mean we would have to keep 7 WRs for Hodgins to have a chance to make the team.  And that 7th spot will likely also have to be someone who can prove they can be a reliable contributor on ST too.  So not only is Hodgins competing as a WR against guys like Tavon, Stevenson, Kumerow, Pau'u, etc...he also competing to show he can be good on ST, something Kumerow for example has already proven he can be.  

 

Ive always liked Hodgins potential, so be cool to see him keep growing and make the team.  But assuming there are no injuries or surprise cuts/trades at WR, then he likely needs to see us keep 7 to a real chance to make this team, and at the same time prove he can be relied upon on ST.  

 

Austin and Stevenson have proven to be not good returners. Stevenson may still have some upside because he is young. But he wasn't good last year.

The competition is likely Kumerow vs. Hodgins. One thing that isn't being discussed is that there is a world where Crowder is the odd man out. Shakir can play both inside and out.  I believe Hodgins was used as a big slot at OSU as well. Plus Cook. Unless Crowder starts lighting it up quickly, the offense may have enough tools inside. 

From a cap perspective, keeping and cutting Crowder cost basically the same thing. $1.87M to cut and $1.98M to keep. With a $750k signing bonus he might actually be a good trade piece. 

[Warcodered]

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

17 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

Crowder can still beat out Hodgins because of his versatility to play outside and the slot. Hodgins has been an outside only reciever.

 

Also, I don't see Hodgins getting playing time unless it's an emergency. Crowder can rotate in for Davis, Diggs, and Mckenzie.

 

 

 

does Hodgins play ST? That is his ticket onto the roster.

[Mango]

20 minutes ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

 

Hodgins is 6'3", 200 lbs - he's not a slot receiver

 

Hodgins played a lot of the "big slot" at OSU. He can certainly play inside. 

[Beck Water]

29 minutes ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

 

Hodgins is 6'3", 200 lbs - he's not a slot receiver

 

Did anyone say he was?

 

But if the Bills are feeling great about a McKenzie-Shakir 1-2 punch in the slot, it does seem possible it opens up a #5 role for Hodgins as an outside WR backup plan. 

 

Does anyone feel Crowder or McKenzie could fill that outside backup roll?

 

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Hodgins played a lot of the "big slot" at OSU. He can certainly play inside. 

 

I'm really unfamiliar with his college role.  But would "big slot" in college translate to quick enough for it in the NFL?

Edited August 8, 2022 by Beck Water

[HappyDays]

 

[Mango]

20 minutes ago, unbillievable said:

Crowder can still beat out Hodgins because of his versatility to play outside and the slot. Hodgins has been an outside only reciever.

 

Also, I don't see Hodgins getting playing time unless it's an emergency. Crowder can rotate in for Davis, Diggs, and Mckenzie.

 

 

 

 

Tried to merge, but it did not work. 

Hodgins played a lot of "big slot" at OSU. He can certainly play both. I think there is a world where there is actually a log jam. Shakir has had a great camp, can provide depth anywhere, and is staying on the roster. Cook is lining up outside all the time, plus Dawson Knox.

 

So why not keep Hodgins and drop Crowder at that point? You have all the inside skill you really need. Where is the playing time for a guy like Crowder in that room vs. additional depth outside? 

 

 

[Bruffalo]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Definitely not a great sign for Epenesa.  I really would love to see him break out but I'm sort of doubting it at this point. 

[78thealltimegreat]

This D better dominate with a patchwork line and the 5th most amount of money in the league spent on the defensive side of the ball 

[Bruffalo]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Tried to merge, but it did not work. 

Hodgins played a lot of "big slot" at OSU. He can certainly play both. I think there is a world where there is actually a log jam. Shakir has had a great camp, can provide depth anywhere, and is staying on the roster. Cook is lining up outside all the time, plus Dawson Knox.

 

So why not keep Hodgins and drop Crowder at that point? You have all the inside skill you really need. Where is the playing time for a guy like Crowder in that room vs. additional depth outside? 

 

 

I think it'd be kind of irresponsible to leave the slot to McKenzie, a guy we all want to believe in but hasn't seen an expanded role yet, and Shakir, an untested rookie.  Even if Crowder is just there as insurance I think it's worth it. 

[Mango]

7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Did anyone say he was?

 

But if the Bills are feeling great about a McKenzie-Shakir 1-2 punch in the slot, it does seem possible it opens up a #5 role for Hodgins as an outside WR backup plan. 

 

Does anyone feel Crowder or McKenzie could fill that outside backup roll?

 

 

I'm really unfamiliar with his college role.  But would "big slot" in college translate to quick enough for it in the NFL?

 

The "big slot" is actually becoming much more common in the league. Just look at how athletic TE's are becoming. Sort of a similar concept. But even guys like Evans and Adams are spending a good amount of time inside. There are times you play McKenzie and times you play a guy like Hodgins. Both are mismatches for all sorts of reasons. 
 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

13 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Austin and Stevenson have proven to be not good returners. Stevenson may still have some upside because he is young. But he wasn't good last year.

The competition is likely Kumerow vs. Hodgins. One thing that isn't being discussed is that there is a world where Crowder is the odd man out. Shakir can play both inside and out.  I believe Hodgins was used as a big slot at OSU as well. Plus Cook. Unless Crowder starts lighting it up quickly, the offense may have enough tools inside. 

From a cap perspective, keeping and cutting Crowder cost basically the same thing. $1.87M to cut and $1.98M to keep. With a $750k signing bonus he might actually be a good trade piece. 

 

Yeah not really any financial reason to move on from Crowder, so I still think he likely makes the final roster given he is still only 28 and a pretty good player.  With this being a SB or bust type season, I think it probably makes the most sense to keep the best players.  And Crowder is definitely a more accomplished and better player than Hodgins.  

 

But, then again, with Shakir and McKenzie having such strong camps, if some other team gets hit with a key injury at WR, then wouldn't surprise me to see Beane make a trade if he gets something decent back.

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

The "big slot" is actually becoming much more common in the league. Just look at how athletic TE's are becoming. Sort of a similar concept. But even guys like Evans and Adams are spending a good amount of time inside. There are times you play McKenzie and times you play a guy like Hodgins. Both are mismatches for all sorts of reasons. 
 

 

I don't disagree that the "big slot" / athletic TE with receiving chops is a Trend in the league right now. 

 

But you astutely call out the word "athletic"

 

My question was, whether the degree of athleticism that made Hodgins successful in a college big-slot roll is sufficient to allow him to succeed in the NFL?

 

I could be wrong, I just had the impression Hodgins isn't particularly quick, fast or athletic (for the NFL, where the bar is high indeed).

[Royale with Cheese]

Being that they weren't in pads today, I'm not as concerned with the offensive line.  It's much harder to block a guy without pads.

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah not really any financial reason to move on from Crowder, so I still think he likely makes the final roster given he is still only 28 and a pretty good player.  With this being a SB or bust type season, I think it probably makes the most sense to keep the best players.  And Crowder is definitely a more accomplished and better player than Hodgins.  

 

But, then again, with Shakir and McKenzie having such strong camps, if some other team gets hit with a key injury at WR, then wouldn't surprise me to see Beane make a trade if he gets something decent back.

 

OK so there's Matt Parrino's report from today's practice.  With Shakir and McKenzie out, looks as though Crowder got some love and was steady:

 

Quote

3. Jamison Crowder flashes potential

Crowder has finally gotten some time with Allen the past few days and he’s looking more comfortable by the day. Backup quarterback Matt Barkley called Crowder a “salty vet,” who has a knack for getting open, finding windows for the quarterback to throw into, and winning matchups. Crowder did that on one play late in practice when he sat down near the right sideline and caught one from Allen for a modest gain. Tre’Davious White was watching on the sideline and appeared to be frustrated by the defense’s lack of attention to Crowder on the play. Allen was dealing with a lot of pressure up front throughout practice, but targeted Crowder a number of times. He made a few grabs on the day.

 

Although "targeted a number of times...made a few grabs" is a bit lukewarm.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Beck Water

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

[Comebackkid]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

Can I get you a tissue or a tube sock? 

Why would a girl want a tube sock?🤔

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

   

So, in the short term, what is he?  Depth for Diggs-Davis-McKenzie-Crowder-Shakir?   I think he has stand out for the next three weeks to win that job, either receiving or special teams, and ideally both.  

 

I also think Shakir will be the punt returner by the end of the season.   He's shown very good hands, and he seems smart and dependable.  I think McKenzie will start the season returning, and Shakir will continue to jugs work and practice in the backup KR role.  If McKenzie falters, Shakier will be the guy.  

 

That is the question that could be answered in camp/preseason.  Let's take out ST play for one moment.  I agree with your 5 WRs as locks.

I know not everyone does, but I do.  Shakir can take snaps outside but the "camp question" will be, can he do it full time if needed?

Hodgin is a complete unknown, but the question is can he fill in if needed?

 

Maybe 7 WRs are kept but not all will dress.  Kumerow has PS skills, but his WR skills are a lot less than I originally hoped for.  Kumerow is 30+

and on a one-year contract so I could ask "Is he in the Bills future"?  Hodgins will be 24 on a cheap 2-year and none of us know what he could

bring to ST.  We also don't know if Kumerow's ST spot can be filled with a player from another position.

 

I think the 6th and/or 7th WR spots are totally up for grabs and there are a lot of "other" factors beyond what we see to make a call.