Don Otreply Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 2 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: I know its combine and a while ago, but Bates did 28 reps on the bench and Ford did 19…Which is borderline pathetic for his size. So I would argue there is more power in Bates’ game. Just because he is athletic doesn’t mean he plays a finesse game. And just because guys like Ford and Feliciano are fat, doesn’t mean they are powerful. Just my 2 cents. Imo, our O-line coaches have had issues in putting the best guys on the field, and scheming properly for their skill sets, it’s been going on for the past three seasons. Bates is a prime example, iirc he has played as good or better than who he has replaced every time he has been called upon, not saying he’s a great player, but compared to who has played in front of him…, we have missed the boat on this guy for some time now, I’m thinking he’s likely gone. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 26 minutes ago, Buddo said: Personally, I would have stuck the 2nd round tender on him. With the level of interest he appears to have generated (at least 3 visits to teams), then if we were to lose him, we would be getting something back. Just to bring up this point again. IF Beane tendered a 2nd is a very good chance no one would have given that up for Bates. So the Bills have him for 1 year at $4M and have to try to sign him for a long term contract next year. If he plays well he will cost more than that. Maybe Beane want to see what long term deal Bates can work out and then decide if it makes sense. In the long run there is a chance they get Bates cheaper than what they thought it would cost them next year. Bates on the other hand might not sign a contract that he believes is too low. If that happens he comes back to BUF for one more year hoping for a bigger payday next year when he is a UFA. FWIW I also thought a 2nd round tender was going to happen but now I just want to see how this plays out. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 22, 2022 Author Share Posted March 22, 2022 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Hmmm, I see your point now, but I'll have to work through how I think about it. I don't know who this guy is, but he seems impressed with Bates: On the other hand, he doesn't seem to have too much insight into the Bills roster: For those unfamiliar, James Daniels is a former 2nd round pick by the Bears who started 48 of 54 games for the Bears (had a pec tear one season). He just signed a three-year, $26.5 million contract with the Steelers. I think he’s saying that Bates would be an upgrade on the Bears over Daniels which is… a very hot take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Bears fans acting like Bates is Bryant Johnson or something. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGMcD2 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 I think this is the strategy… a team will sign Ryan Bates to an offer sheet and Beane will decline to match. BUT then once the dust settles and NFL Twitter is celebrating this heralded FA signing… Beane will point out that they signed Ryan Bates but in reality his name RICK Bates… which means we maintain control over him due to the technicality. It’s really clever on Beane’s end. I’m pretty sure he’s hoping Washington will sign him so he can ***** them up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 23, 2022 Author Share Posted March 23, 2022 19 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: Bears fans acting like Bates is Bryant Johnson or something. He’s no Ryan Groy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: He’s no Ryan Groy! The FO might again be on the verge of a mistake to allow Bates to leave. McBeanes does make tactical errors. Really to get the young players in place this year behind Morse and Saffold a well. Bobby Johnson seemed to struggle. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocCityRoller Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Hmmm, I see your point now, but I'll have to work through how I think about it. I don't know who this guy is, but he seems impressed with Bates: On the other hand, he doesn't seem to have too much insight into the Bills roster: For those unfamiliar, James Daniels is a former 2nd round pick by the Bears who started 48 of 54 games for the Bears (had a pec tear one season). He just signed a three-year, $26.5 million contract with the Steelers. This is part of what I have been trying to point out. Anyone who can diagnose OL blocking can see Bates is a (+) NFL pulling Guard. It's not hard to see. I'll post it again.... watch 71 pull. Check out the view from 0:32 onward for the best angle Edited March 23, 2022 by RocCityRoller 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 3 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: Ford was drafted to be a RT IIRC, wasn't Dawkins drafted at G? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: That is a great point. With their needs they don’t even sniff Bates, but rush to sign Feliciano and Mark Glowinski. It is weird. I think a lot of these NFL OL coaches are totally fixated on players who use the techniques they teach and they struggle to see past that (think Juan Castillo and Vlad DuCasse). Feliciano was Bobby Johnson’s guy. TBH, part of it is there was a time when we were all saying Bates did not look as good as Feliciano or Boettger (last season? Preseason?) and I think there’s a “halo” effect where coaches tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the entrenched starter. IMHO, Feliciano last season may have been better at RG, but moving to LG and losing all that weight - No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said: This is part of what I have been trying to point out. Anyone who can diagnose OL blocking can see Bates is a (+) NFL pulling Guard. It's not hard to see. I'll post it again.... watch 71 pull. Check out the view from 0:32 onward for the best angle Not to take anything away from Bates, or Motor there, but Van Noy looks like he's asleep standing in that play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 this Bears blog seems to have a pretty reasonable take on the situation: Bears Goggles On blog Quote A recent report came out that the Chicago Bears will be hosting free agent guard Ryan Bates for a visit this week. This led to many Bears fans and media overreacting to the news. Many fans said that the team cannot let Bates leave the building, others are touting his high upside already claiming he is an upgrade from James Daniels. Quote First, we have to address the do not let him leave the building argument. Ryan Bates is not a typical free agent, he is restricted so you will have to let him leave the building. The best that the Chicago Bears can do this week is offer him a contract. Bates, by rule, then has to show the Bills the contract and the Bills will have a chance to match the deal. They tendered him and if they chose to match any deal, Bates has to take the Bills deal. So, this tender allows Bates to see what his market is, and allows the Bills to pay his market price. If the team is surprised by what he gets offered, they can move on, but if he comes in less, then the team will surely make an easy decision to keep him. Quote The only way to sign Ryan Bates is to make an offer that the Buffalo Bills cannot swallow. That will take guts and strong belief considering Ryan Bates has four career starts and 575 career snaps. It is pretty dishonest to project off of those four starts that he will be better or at the very least as good as this. James Daniels has 3,321 career snaps. That is about six times as many as Ryan Bates. Bates may be good, but many linemen can jump in for four starts and not fall apart. Sam Mustipher earned a starting role last season based on seven starts. His sample was similar, but we saw once he was an every-week starter what happened. It is about consistency and being able to log 1,000 snaps of quality play. Bates has been in the NFL for four seasons and is nowhere near a snap count that can even be considered large enough to have a strong understanding of what he is. The Bills obviously like his upside, which is why they tendered him and gave themselves a shot to match his contract. Still, they let him test his market because they trust that no team is going to break the bank and make a crazy offer just to sign a guy with four starts over four seasons. Decent read, give it a look. Guy is taking some abuse in the comments though 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 23 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: IIRC, wasn't Dawkins drafted at G? A bunch of draft people projected that guard would be his best position because of his height, but he was a left tackle at Temple and has been really good as a pro. His height isn’t a problem because he has freakishly long arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichRiderBills Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Reminds me of the Ryan Groy situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Thought this was another good review of Bates starts: https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2022/2/22/22945343/all-22-year-in-review-buffalo-bills-g-ryan-bates It is a point to consider that he started late in the season when the DL is dinged up and fighting fatigue from a long season. From what I’ve read about life on the OL in the NFL, it’s a long hard grind and nicks and dings do add up, even with top-class recovery facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 23, 2022 Author Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said: IIRC, wasn't Dawkins drafted at G? No - he was projected to possibly move inside to G in the nfl but he played LT in college and started here at LT as a rookie Edited March 23, 2022 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 If the Bills value Josh Allen's life, they will bring Bates back. Even though I am a BIG FAN of the Bills drafting Kenyon Green at 25, with or without Bates (remember Safford is 34 and on a one year deal). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEpsYtown Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 13 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said: Reminds me of the Ryan Groy situation. It is a bit different because he signed an offer sheet in LA to be a starter, and the Bills matched to sit him on the bench. So it sucked for him. Bates is going to be a starter either here, or wherever he signs imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: this Bears blog seems to have a pretty reasonable take on the situation: Bears Goggles On blog Decent read, give it a look. Guy is taking some abuse in the comments though He's right (except about Bates having been in the league for 4 years, it's 3, and having 4 career starts, it's 6 including playoffs, which is curious because the author counted those snaps in the 575 he mentioned). How big of a contract are you willing to give a guy who has 6 starts after 3 years in the league? Much less, do you front-load it to make the Bills unable to match it, with the potential he could be a bust? Again his best option is to play under the tender and cash-in next year. But I do wish the Bills had tendered him at the 2nd round level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Bates in search of master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringMetheHeadofLeonLett Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said: Bates in search of master. ??? This is the 21st century 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 7 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: A bunch of draft people projected that guard would be his best position because of his height, but he was a left tackle at Temple and has been really good as a pro. His height isn’t a problem because he has freakishly long arms. I was among them (and I still even now think he could be an all pro at LG). I always knew he could play tackle but my main concern on him as a tackle was foot speed and there are still moments againt true speed rushers where they get outside him and blow by. But he has played better in the league at tackle than I'd have imagined. My view was he could be a starter but would probably never be a top 10 guy and I would now say that at his best in 2020 he did play at that borderline top 10 level. We didn't quite see it last year though there were genuine mitigations and he came on down the stretch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 7 hours ago, RichRiderBills said: Reminds me of the Ryan Groy situation. I could see where somebody would say that that thought is crossed my mind I think that it’s different because Bates has proven himself overtime over years literally every time he has been given a chance to be in the lineup he is produced and then when he got put into the lineup for extended games he has produced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: I could see where somebody would say that that thought is crossed my mind I think that it’s different because Bates has proven himself overtime over years literally every time he has been given a chance to be in the lineup he is produced and then when he got put into the lineup for extended games he has produced Has he? He barely played before the end of last season. I think if someone offers Bates a mid-range starting guard deal they should let him sign it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 29 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Has he? He barely played before the end of last season. I think if someone offers Bates a mid-range starting guard deal they should let him sign it. But I think the under-appreciated value of Ryan Bates is his ability, and intelligence, to fill in at any time in any of the o-line positions. Back to the "protect Josh" line of thought: if that is important--and we all know it is, and o-linemen get hurt--and we know that happens, then having someone you can trust to know what to do and to be able and go out and do it--to the level that it seems like there is never a dip--is HUGE. Whether Bates starts or not, I think he is a very important part of this team. I would hate to see him go. But to your big point Gunner, it will come down to the money. Do the Bills have enough to keep him without having to overspend? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Having dinner with Bill Belichick is unforgivable https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2022/03/multiple-teams-including-patriots-swarming-on-bills-ryan-bates.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 23, 2022 Author Share Posted March 23, 2022 Free up the 2.43 or whatever he’s taking up now in cap space and draft a OG please 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Matter_What Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 13 hours ago, Saint Doug said: So far Beane has been relatively neglectful of his number 1 priority of getting Josh protection. Agreed. I'd say that no matter if Bates leave there is like 99% chance we draft IOL in first 3 rounds, but still. I don't understand the game enough to compare players but so far we have just exchanged Williams for Saffold (which is a small upgrade I guess) and got worse in depth. If Bates leaves it gets much worse. Even if we draft Zion Johnson that would be still less than I hoped for. Anyway, this is the reason why I believe that plan is to draft OG very early. And since there doesn't seem to be value in round 2, I fully expect to draft Johnson round 1 (or maybe after trade down in 1st or trade up in 2nd). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichRiderBills Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 2 hours ago, John from Riverside said: I could see where somebody would say that that thought is crossed my mind I think that it’s different because Bates has proven himself overtime over years literally every time he has been given a chance to be in the lineup he is produced and then when he got put into the lineup for extended games he has produced Groy had double the starts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 23, 2022 Author Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said: Agreed. I'd say that no matter if Bates leave there is like 99% chance we draft IOL in first 3 rounds, but still. I don't understand the game enough to compare players but so far we have just exchanged Williams for Saffold (which is a small upgrade I guess) and got worse in depth. If Bates leaves it gets much worse. Even if we draft Zion Johnson that would be still less than I hoped for. Anyway, this is the reason why I believe that plan is to draft OG very early. And since there doesn't seem to be value in round 2, I fully expect to draft Johnson round 1 (or maybe after trade down in 1st or trade up in 2nd). They actually signed Saffold to play LG and replace Feliciano/Boettger (big upgrade). Ford will be the default DW replacement at RG but that’s where the rookie will compete for a spot. Mancz is the depth signing. If Bates returns he will compete with Ford/Rookie (hopefully they draft one) at RG. Edited March 23, 2022 by YoloinOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 11 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: They actually signed Saffold to play LG and replace Feliciano/Boettger (big upgrade). Ford will be the default DW replacement at RG but that’s where the rookie will compete for a spot. Mancz is the depth signing. If Bates returns he will compete with Ford/Rookie (hopefully they draft one) at RG. The thought of depending on Ford to start at this point bothers me 2 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Has he? He barely played before the end of last season. I think if someone offers Bates a mid-range starting guard deal they should let him sign it. You’re putting Ford in a position to possibly be the starter with that thinking and I don’t think that’s good 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 21 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said: Groy had double the starts And look horrible doing it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: You’re putting Ford in a position to possibly be the starter with that thinking and I don’t think that’s good I don't think Ford will end up on the 53. But that is just me. I don't think you potentially overpay for Bates on the basis of a 4-6 game run last year just because you don't have an alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I don't think Ford will end up on the 53. But that is just me. I don't think you potentially overpay for Bates on the basis of a 4-6 game run last year just because you don't have an alternative. So then what is the alternative it’s either a veteran we haven’t seen yet or a rookie draft pick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 minute ago, John from Riverside said: So then what is the alternative it’s either a veteran we haven’t seen yet or a rookie draft pick Yes, but you can't overpay for Bates on a tiny sample size because of that. You have to make the Bates decision on its own merits and then if you lose him you start looking at your alternative options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Matter_What Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I don't think Ford will end up on the 53. But that is just me. I don't think you potentially overpay for Bates on the basis of a 4-6 game run last year just because you don't have an alternative. Interesting. So who do think will be on the roster? Dawkins, Saffold, Morse, Brown, Doyle and early draft pick are stone cold locks. Thats 6. Seven if you count Bates, but you are also saying you wouldn't match any higher offer, so not sure we can count him. Assuming there will be 9 OL on the roster, you need 2 more to get ahead of Ford. Is it Mancz and another (late) draft pick? Or do you still expect Beane to sign somebody better than Ford in FA? I am not arguing with you I just don't see how Ford (still on the rookie deal) could be cut, esp. with new OL coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said: Free up the 2.43 or whatever he’s taking up now in cap space and draft a OG please I don't know why they didn't just tender him with a 2nd tender. All the dude did was play well when he was put in the lineup do they think teams didn't see how he stabilized the OLine and improved the run game? Not to mention his versatility. Bills do very well at uncovering hidden gems but not so well at gauging the value other teams will put on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said: Interesting. So who do think will be on the roster? Dawkins, Saffold, Morse, Brown, Doyle and early draft pick are stone cold locks. Thats 6. Seven if you count Bates, but you are also saying you wouldn't match any higher offer, so not sure we can count him. Assuming there will be 9 OL on the roster, you need 2 more to get ahead of Ford. Is it Mancz and another (late) draft pick? Or do you still expect Beane to sign somebody better than Ford in FA? I am not arguing with you I just don't see how Ford (still on the rookie deal) could be cut, esp. with new OL coach. I just think Ford is done. He counts $2.3m against the cap this year, they are not going to re-sign him, they would save $1.5m by cutting him. He would have to be so good in camp that he is genuinely deserving of the starting job to make the 53 IMO. Because they could actually end up with a cheaper backup off the street or out of the draft. Is that Mancz or someone else? Not sure at this stage, but Cody has to be at worst their 6th best lineman to make the 53 IMO. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted March 23, 2022 Author Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Big Turk said: I don't know why they didn't just tender him with a 2nd tender. All the dude did was play well when he was put in the lineup do they think teams didn't see how he stabilized the OLine and improved the run game? Not to mention his versatility. Bills do very well at uncovering hidden gems but not so well at gauging the value other teams will put on them. It makes sense when you look at the options - tender at the lowest, get him back at that amount tender at the lowest, risk someone offering between 2.4 and 3.9, you then match at less than the 2nd round tender that you would have paid anyway tender at the lowest, risk someone offering above 4 mill, ok they value him higher than we do, but we can pay him that if we choose tender at the lowest, someone offers a front loaded deal that pays like 10 mill over two years or something with 7 in first year - see ya - take his cap space and go sign will Hernandez who I think would be an upgrade Edited March 23, 2022 by YoloinOhio 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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