goober Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 25 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: NFL refs now average $205,000/year. So long gone are the days of the "moonlighting referee." Sure, many have other jobs. So would you if your main gig required working 17 days a year. There's number 17 again. Love & peace or sin & evil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksilver Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 The OP might want to loosen the tin foil just a bit. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 6 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: The Giants and Redskins battled it out in the regular season finale in 2019 - the loser got the #2 pick and Chase Young.. Neither team looked like they wanted to lose that game. Phily (?) put there third string QB to lose their final game last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuvian Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 The Eagles tanked in Doug Pederson's last year under the guise of showcasing Jalen Hurts. If a team has a choice between having a six win season or a three win season and drafting the next great QB they will take the latter. No one tells billionaires what to do. I don't blame Flores or any other coach for refusing to play along because doing so destroys your integrity as a coach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 24 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: NFL refs now average $205,000/year. So long gone are the days of the "moonlighting referee." Sure, many have other jobs. So would you if your main gig required working 17 days a year. Yeah, well midnight merchandiser at Home Despot is getting a bit trying. 🤨 * And as for the overall thrust of the thread: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorquemada Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 minute ago, JoPoy88 said: So you’d have to show me the motivations for such a grand, widespread fixing conspiracy. The alleged motivation of Ross is easy to see - he wanted the best possible draft position. But for multiple teams, refs, league officials and co-conspirators like gambling sites to be working something? What’s the impetus behind that scheme? The point here is that it doesnt have to be grand or widespread at all. There's inflection points in every football game, and if a coach wanted to throw a game because there was a million bucks in it for him, it wouldn't be all that hard. I work in sales and I've seen people marched to the door my whole career because they cheated the system to get an extra $1000 in a commissions check. I'm not saying it's happening but people getting indignant at the the very possibility that it might happen, i wonder if you ever leave your house and interact with other human beings 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said: So you’d have to show me the motivations for such a grand, widespread fixing conspiracy. The alleged motivation of Ross is easy to see - he wanted the best possible draft position. But for multiple teams, refs, league officials and co-conspirators like gambling sites to be working something? What’s the impetus behind that scheme? It still blows my mind how all of you guys put words in each other’s mouths. I said nothing about a grand conspiracy. I said that when you have accusations of an owner making bribes to his coach to throw games AND he and the league have multiple hands in gambling venture pockets it looks bad. Bad looks opens the door to doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said: I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been started. We all have heard the allegations that Miami’s owner Ross was offering Flores $100k a loss to tank. The NFL should not be in bed with Casinos or online betting sites such as Fan duel. It immediately causes a bad look due to the appearance of conflicting interests. I didn’t research the numbers but it must be in the hundreds of millions in advertising revenue. Then there is the fact that a group of 32 billionaires refuse to employ professional referees. If you own 1 billion you are filthy rich. And yet, the league has refused to hire these guys on full time. It isn’t a money issue. That makes zero sense. If Ross was willing to proposition his coach to lose ( I get that the proof isn’t there but tell me it doesn’t sound plausible) why wouldn’t he or other powers that be not be willing to slip a few shekels to a dirty ref or three? I’m not say it happened. But, there is a saying a teacher of mine had: “ It doesn’t just have to be right, it has to look right.” There have been multiple threads on here over the years talking about the fix being in. Many on here poopoo it because it seems insane. Which brings me to my final point: What would it look like if you were going to throw a game from a coaching perspective? Run a bunch of low percentage plays and punt while shackling your best player(s)? Make absolutely befuddling and egregious decisions that are completely indefensible? I haven’t personally believed that the fix was in in a conspiracy level way in the past. I’m not saying I do now. But, for the first time the dots are starting to connect themselves and picture coming together isn’t a pretty or even palatable one. Flame away Ladies and Gentlemen I agree 💯. I’ve said it for decades. It’s happened in other sports, not sure why anyone would think that there is no chance of this happening in the nfl. Maybe because humans are innately good…. 🤣 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid. Step out of line, and you lose a conditional draft pick. Or even worse, start a rumble at Golden Corral. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 If there is any funny business going on, it is by individual teams trying to get advantage over the other teams. Ross wasn't paying his coach to lose because he wanted to fix games. He wanted a higher draft pick so he could start winning in future seasons. It was about winning later, not any kind of betting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigK14094 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Flores needs to understand, that as soon as Schoen went to the Giants as GM, that Daboll was likely going to be his choice as long as he could get the ownership group to agree. That , in fact, might have been part of the dialog before Schoen even agreed to go there. Above all else, hiring authority hires people they are comfortable with to do the job they are filling. No super interview was going to break that chain of events imho. Its not racial, although some would say it is, its the Giants trying to bring some of the Bills DNA by taking a big bite. (four guys so far at my count) Flores got released in Miami for whatever reason, he had a contract, I am sure it will be paid out. Outside of the contract, its employment at will on the part of the ownership of any franchise. (the money talks) If Flores thinks there should be a quota on management positions in football, one could argue there should also be a quota on the distribution of races in the player ranks. That might or might not produce the best quality of football as an entertainment product and could impact the revenue of the league in undertermined ways. Personally, I am a fan for the football game itself and would hate to see quality play suffer if less qualified players were kept on roster for non football reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorquemada Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, NewEra said: I agree 💯. I’ve said it for decades. It’s happened in other sports, not sure why anyone would think that there is no chance of this happening in the nfl. Maybe because humans are innately good…. 🤣 Right, lol at that. Look, anywhere there's a lot of money, there will be people lying, cheating, and stealing to get at it. I happen to agree that the NFL hopping in bed with legalized gambling is a bad idea, and will ultimately incentivize bad behavior. Not by everybody, not in a largely coordinated fashion, but I can say with great certainty that there will be instances where connected people, be they coaches, players, officials, or owners, will break the rules to enrich themselves. That anyone finds this even mildly controversial from a likelihood standpoint is just amazing to me. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but I don't think so 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullim4 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Regarding the officiating department... As was said upthread, they are paid very well for what amounts to 16 games of work (they get multiple bye/off weeks), plus preseason and postseason duty. I think the major issue with the officiating is the average age and physical fitness. These guys range in age from their late 30s to 70 years old (in the case of Tony Corrente). You can't tell me that things like reaction time, eyesight, etc don't diminish by the time you reach 55, let alone 70. They should move the older officials up into the booth for replay, and get younger blood out on the field. I honestly think this is the biggest reason officiating is terrible - it's being conducted by the same group waiting in line for the salad bar at Wendys at 4pm on a Wednesday for their discount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorquemada Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, MJS said: If there is any funny business going on, it is by individual teams trying to get advantage over the other teams. Ross wasn't paying his coach to lose because he wanted to fix games. He wanted a higher draft pick so he could start winning in future seasons. It was about winning later, not any kind of betting. "paying his coach to lose" = "fix games" does it matter why? From a rules and legal perspective, it absolutely does not matter why 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 While I surely don't believe in any league wide conspiracies this whole tanking thing does put a stain on the NFL. I don't like it and wish it didn't happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPoy88 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said: It still blows my mind how all of you guys put words in each other’s mouths. I said nothing about a grand conspiracy. I said that when you have accusations of an owner making bribes to his coach to throw games AND he and the league have multiple hands in gambling venture pockets it looks bad. Bad looks opens the door to doubts. 23 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said: It still blows my mind how all of you guys put words in each other’s mouths. I said nothing about a grand conspiracy. I said that when you have accusations of an owner making bribes to his coach to throw games AND he and the league have multiple hands in gambling venture pockets it looks bad. Bad looks opens the door to doubts. That I certainly agree with sorry for misreading you. While Ross’s alleged activity doesn’t suggest any gambling ties or influences, the mere fact that the league is completely integrated with gambling now makes the bad optics of all this even worse. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 < Hue Jackson has joined the chat > 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorquemada Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 7 minutes ago, Simon said: < Hue Jackson has joined the chat > Alexa, who is Pete Rose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 22 minutes ago, dorquemada said: "paying his coach to lose" = "fix games" does it matter why? From a rules and legal perspective, it absolutely does not matter why 27 minutes ago, MJS said: If there is any funny business going on, it is by individual teams trying to get advantage over the other teams. Ross wasn't paying his coach to lose because he wanted to fix games. He wanted a higher draft pick so he could start winning in future seasons. It was about winning later, not any kind of betting. Vegas lines are created with the understanding that both teams are trying to win. Paying your coach to throw a game for any reason is a fix in terms of the above statement. Any wagers made under circumstances other than the above are not fair wagers. It matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorquemada Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 4 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said: Vegas lines are created with the understanding that both teams are trying to win. Paying your coach to throw a game for any reason is a fix in terms of the above statement. Any wagers made under circumstances other than the above are not fair wagers. It matters. Also, "Vegas" as an institution, needs for people to have faith that the game isn't rigged. If it is, then people will just bet with the bookie at their watering hole or find other ways to throw money away like college educations and blue state property taxes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanoros Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, dma0034 said: So the league manipulates outcomes for what end? If you think that an owner like Jerry Jones is okay with his team losing for 2 decades because it's part of a greater plan then you are crazy. It’s the Cowboys and Jerry Jones that give me pause towards widespread gambling abuse in the NFL, because he seems to be (from my perspective) someone who either would pay to win, or raise holy hell (in a non public way of ofcourse) if he caught wind of it happening against his teams interests. Although, it doesn’t mean there isn’t some from abuse as Flores has pointed out. It just seems that it would be a few here and there abusing things (like the Pats and spy gate). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stgm1993 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 58 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said: Yeah, well midnight merchandiser at Home Despot is getting a bit trying. 🤨 * And as for the overall thrust of the thread: yea we need him gone so the Bills can win the big one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) Here's how the view on gambling by the NFL has changed in the last 15 years: In 2005 I played in the Seattle Seahawks Blue Thunder Drumline. On the Seahawks web site they had a page called Picks with Duck & Anna. Duck was an equipment guy and Anna was a chearleader. They would pick the winners for the next weeks games. I would see them at practice and the stadium sometimes would talk to the. Around week 10 I noticed the page was gone. They told me that had to stop cuz it could be construed as gambling advice so they pulled it. I under$tand why the NFL billionaires are doing it but it cheapens the product and introduces a lot of questions by fans and others. We all grew up hearing about the Black Sox scandal and gambling's influence on it. @Buffalo Boy mentioned his teacher's friend comment about it had to look right. I would also toss in that in the law field they talk about avoiding the perception of corruption. Partnering with gambling certainly raises the perception of being in bed with and influenced by gambling. I hope its worth it. Edited February 2, 2022 by reddogblitz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said: that's already the subject of a very long thread right here on page one. You mean the fifty plus page mess that has six or seven sub threads within it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Give me an example of something I can't manipulate if I have enough money? The only thing that would ever stop such a thing would be individual morality. It wouldn't be motive or ability. That goes for just about everything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 My personal NFL conspiracy is that the owners get together and each has the option of buying into an auction where the playoffs are auctioned off to the highest bidders, but you can't bid cash. It has to be art, yachts, cars, property, gold, airplanes, stock, whatever. If you win the Super Bowl, you get your property back. If you pay for a playoff spot and don't win the Super Bowl, your property goes to "the" fund. The fund is a hedge fund that makes money for "contingencies" such as a government anti-trust crusade, lawsuit on the level of big Tobacco or some cataclysmic event that threatens their personal fortunes. I envision it goes down exactly like the James Bond Casino Royale film. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said: I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been started. We all have heard the allegations that Miami’s owner Ross was offering Flores $100k a loss to tank. The NFL should not be in bed with Casinos or online betting sites such as Fan duel. It immediately causes a bad look due to the appearance of conflicting interests. I didn’t research the numbers but it must be in the hundreds of millions in advertising revenue. Then there is the fact that a group of 32 billionaires refuse to employ professional referees. If you own 1 billion you are filthy rich. And yet, the league has refused to hire these guys on full time. It isn’t a money issue. That makes zero sense. If Ross was willing to proposition his coach to lose ( I get that the proof isn’t there but tell me it doesn’t sound plausible) why wouldn’t he or other powers that be not be willing to slip a few shekels to a dirty ref or three? I’m not say it happened. But, there is a saying a teacher of mine had: “ It doesn’t just have to be right, it has to look right.” There have been multiple threads on here over the years talking about the fix being in. Many on here poopoo it because it seems insane. Which brings me to my final point: What would it look like if you were going to throw a game from a coaching perspective? Run a bunch of low percentage plays and punt while shackling your best player(s)? Make absolutely befuddling and egregious decisions that are completely indefensible? I haven’t personally believed that the fix was in in a conspiracy level way in the past. I’m not saying I do now. But, for the first time the dots are starting to connect themselves and picture coming together isn’t a pretty or even palatable one. Flame away Ladies and Gentlemen The reason they don't have full time refs is that the refs all have careers and they don't want to give up those careers to go sit in a room every day going over the rule book. Refs move up through the ranks, and only a few get to be NFL refs. All the time they're moving up, they're also moving up in their day jobs. By the time they get to the NFL, they're also pretty high up in the food chain wherever they work. If they quit those other jobs to become full-time refs, they wouldn't be able to go back after their NFL days were over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said: You mean the fifty plus page mess that has six or seven sub threads within it? yes, so your were already familiar with it. so it really made no sense to start another such----particularly with the words "I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been started"... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Success Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 That $100K thing needs a real vetting. It would be kind of crazy for an owner to do that & think it would never get out, and also to expect a coach who is ALWAYS trying out for the next job to comply. All allegations have to be treated w/ respect & given the benefit of the doubt, but I'm very interested to see what comes out of this. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said: NFL refs now average $205,000/year. So long gone are the days of the "moonlighting referee." Sure, many have other jobs. So would you if your main gig required working 17 days a year. It is certainly an antiquated way to oversee games in a multi-billion dollar industry. With the new emphasis on gambling, I really think they will move to change this in the next couple years, even if just for the optics. This is no longer the old AFL where guys were truck drivers or mechanics in the offseason. Professionals sports need professional referees. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 hours ago, stuvian said: The Eagles tanked in Doug Pederson's last year under the guise of showcasing Jalen Hurts. If a team has a choice between having a six win season or a three win season and drafting the next great QB they will take the latter. No one tells billionaires what to do. I don't blame Flores or any other coach for refusing to play along because doing so destroys your integrity as a coach. https://www.si.com/college/indiana/.amp/football/philadelphia-eagles-doug-pederson-nate-sudfeld-explanation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorquemada Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 13 minutes ago, Augie said: It is certainly an antiquated way to oversee games in a multi-billion dollar industry. With the new emphasis on gambling, I really think they will move to change this in the next couple years, even if just for the optics. This is no longer the old AFL where guys were truck drivers or mechanics in the offseason. Professionals sports need professional referees. ‘I’ve said it before here. There’s no reason in this day and age to rely on human eyes to referee football or any other sport. Video analytics could solve for this, keep the refs to announce the calls if you want I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ControllerOfPlanetX Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 It just sounds like Ross went to the Terry Pegula/Tim Murray School of Team Building.....albeit with a bit more incentives... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
out Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 2 hours ago, MJS said: If there is any funny business going on, it is by individual teams trying to get advantage over the other teams. Ross wasn't paying his coach to lose because he wanted to fix games. He wanted a higher draft pick so he could start winning in future seasons. It was about winning later, not any kind of betting. Hmmmm I know my team is going to loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly's Heroes Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 3 hours ago, The Wiz said: This thought came in my mind also and sadly the first thing I thought of was Fraziers play calling with 13 seconds left. I like that Fraizer is incompetent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwai San Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 4 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said: NFL refs now average $205,000/year. So long gone are the days of the "moonlighting referee." Sure, many have other jobs. So would you if your main gig required working 17 days a year. First off the 17 days a year is bunk. Refs are required to show up at the very least a day before sometimes 2 days before. They have meetings and go over tape from previous games so there aren't any surprises. In the off season they work practices/scrimmages and then pre-season games. There is a whole lot more to it than 17 games. Now having said all that it amazes me that there are some of the piss poor refs out there still working. The potential pool to choose from is HUGE. And yet we are stuck with some of the worst refs possible. In their mild defense they are human and they do eff up from time to time. But come one. Jerome Boger? Please sir find the door and let yourself out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderingsquid Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Fixed? HA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, goober said: There's number 17 again. Love & peace or sin & evil? All of these 17s are making me craaaazyyyyyyyy............... Edited February 3, 2022 by The Frankish Reich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 5 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said: Which brings me to my final point: What would it look like if you were going to throw a game from a coaching perspective? The last 13 seconds of the KC game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: yes, so your were already familiar with it. so it really made no sense to start another such----particularly with the words "I’m surprised this thread hasn’t been started"... 21 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said: The last 13 seconds of the KC game. 🛎 🛎 🛎 We have a winner folks!!!! Not that I think that is what happened. But, when you are in bed with gambling it give more credence to those that do think that way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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