*[EDIT]* Multiple reports Browns actively shopping Mayfield pg. 29/30 - Ravens / Browns in QB contract pickle

[Rochesterfan]

14 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Makes you wonder if there's a lot more under the covers with Mayfield / Stefanski. Did Stefanski say why he left Hudson on his own to deal 

with T.J. Watt ? Mayfield could be gone but it would take Haslam admitting he was wrong about his #1 pick. 

 

Not sure the relationship is repairable ...

Agree
 

I don’t know for sure, but Stefanski traditionally runs a play action, quick passing attack with lots of passes to TEs and RBs - quick plays that should get the ball out of the QBs hands - allowing a guy like Hudson to handle Watt because the ball is gone.

 

The Browns run a ton of 2 and 3 TE sets just to accomplish this, but Mayfield was again not getting rid of the ball and therefore things went bad.  I get the feeling both guys were trying to prove a point and both will suffer as neither fits what the other wants to do.  Mayfield is not a quick rhythm thrower - he likes off sequence plays where he is the man.

 

The funny part to me is when Mayfield played within the confines of the system late last year.  Lots of completions- move the chains - let the running game lead the team - etc.  the Browns were good and end up winning enough to make the playoffs and then get that gift of a game in Pittsburgh- their house of horrors.  
 

Mayfield - especially with the injuries - needed to get back into that scheme more than ever, but never did.

 

I think this will be interesting to watch as I agree with @YoloinOhio - I think a divorce may be coming/needed - it is just who goes and who stays and how quickly.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Not so sure Mayfield would be hard to replace with Wilson, Garoppolo, Carr, Cousins, Ryan and maybe Deshaun Watson & Rodgers available. Trubisky would have done a better job than Mayfield this year. 

 

Don't judge Baker on this year would be my advice. He has been playing through a pretty significant shoulder injury. He is now going to have it surgically repaired. Yes, this year's version of Baker is easily replaceable. Last year's version much less so. The true Baker may yet be somewhere in the middle. That is why the Browns should not rush a decision. Get him properly healthy next year, let him play on the option and then if they want to retain him franchise tag him. 

 

Also Carr and Ryan are not hitting the market this year. I doubt Cousins does either unless the Vikings do a full tear down (which they shouldn't). Yea they could get Garoppolo, but I personally believe a fully healthy Baker is probably slightly better. Wilson, Rodgers and Watson absolutely are upgrades.... are any of them going to choose Cleveland over the other options even if they do become available given their own distinct circumstances? 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Franchise tag. Lamar could get signed longterm as he's proven more. Mayfield will likely play out his deal. Franchise tag is perfect for QB's like these with questions.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Seventeen]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Don't judge Baker on this year would be my advice. He has been playing through a pretty significant shoulder injury. He is now going to have it surgically repaired. Yes, this year's version of Baker is easily replaceable. Last year's version much less so. The true Baker may yet be somewhere in the middle. That is why the Browns should not rush a decision. Get him properly healthy next year, let him play on the option and then if they want to retain him franchise tag him. 

 

Also Carr and Ryan are not hitting the market this year. I doubt Cousins does either unless the Vikings do a full tear down (which they shouldn't). Yea they could get Garoppolo, but I personally believe a fully healthy Baker is probably slightly better. Wilson, Rodgers and Watson absolutely are upgrades.... are any of them going to choose Cleveland over the other options even if they do become available given their own distinct circumstances? 

 

The question is can Baker return to the 2020 Baker after the surgery ? Confidence is a huge part of QB success and you have to figure he is not only beaten up physically but mentally as well. Lots of batted down passes and Mayfield has thrown more INTs that any QB in the league since 2018. I would agree with Yolo that one of them is out the door and I doubt it's Stefanski after just 2 seasons.

[HOUSE]

The Browns are blaming the lost season on Baker Mayfield injuries

 

I blame Cleveland for drafting Baker over Josh Allen

 

Major screw up in Brownie land

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

The question is can Baker return to the 2020 Baker after the surgery ? Confidence is a huge part of QB success and you have to figure he is not only beaten up physically but mentally as well. Lots of batted down passes and Mayfield has thrown more INTs that any QB in the league since 2018. I would agree with Yolo that one of them is out the door and I doubt it's Stefanski after just 2 seasons.

 

You think they are going to cut him this offseason? That is very unlikely. The 5th year option is fully guaranteed. They pay him that money whether he plays there or not. 

[Seventeen]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You think they are going to cut him this offseason? That is very unlikely. The 5th year option is fully guaranteed. They pay him that money whether he plays there or not. 

 

Cut him ? No ... but they can certainly trade him and have his new team pick up his 5th year money.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Cut him ? No ... but they can certainly trade him and have his new team pick up his 5th year money.

 

Great. I bet there is a queue of teams lining up to trade him if he has all the question marks you just set out. 

 

I think Baker will be the Browns Quarterback in 2022. 

[djp14150]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:31 AM, Inigo Montoya said:

When Beane extended Josh last year it was the expectation that Jackson and Mayfield would also get an extension done before the start of the regular season.  That never happened and now those two franchises find themselves with a bit of a dilemma.

 

Despite being voted to the Pro Bowl again (and Jackson's team will beat that drum despite the fact he clearly doesn't deserve it), Jackson has had a down year in almost every category and has not been available due to injury for part of the second half of the season.  He hasn't played well enough to get a contract that is more lucrative than Allen's, but that is what they are going to be asking for and it will be tough for the Ravens as an organization to pay him less.

 

Baker has had a terrible season and is also down in almost every meaningful statistical category despite being on a team loaded with talent and behind one of the best O-Lines in the NFL.  No NFL QB has had more interceptions than Baker has in the last four years. He has evolved into a serviceable game managing QB.  In fairness, he has dealt with a non-throwing shoulder injury that muddies the water this year a bit.

 

Here are how the 3 QBs line up statistically this year through Week 17;

 

Josh Allen 2021 

Games Played; 16

Completions;  385

Passing Yards;  4,168

Comp %;  64.1

Passing TD's;  34

INT's;  15

Rushing Yards; 700

Average Per Rush;  6 yards

Rushing TD's;  6

Rushing 1st Downs;  51

 

Lamar Jackson 2021   -  Pro Bowl 

Games Played; 13 full games (knocked out early in game 14)

Completions;  246

Passing Yards;  2,882

Comp %;  64.4

Passing TD's;  16

INT's;  13

Rushing Yards;  767

Average Per Rush;  5.8 yards

Rushing TD's;  2

Rushing 1st Downs;  48

 

Baker Mayfield 2021

Games Played;  15

Completions;  237

Passing Yards;  2,825

Comp %;  62.4

Passing TD's;  15

INT's;  11

Rushing Yards;  118

Average Per Rush;  3.4 yards

Rushing TD's;  1

Rushing 1st Downs;  10

 

Looking at those stats and watching the arc of their careers, while Josh isn't putting up numbers as spectacular as last year, I think he has proven that the 2020 season was not an anomaly.  He is one of the top five QBs in the NFL by any measuring stick.  Lamar and Baker on the other hand have had a year of inconsistency where they have played worse than last year and both teams are unlikely to make the playoffs. 

 

The fact that neither franchise locked down Lamar and Baker before this season means that the organizations harbor some doubt about them and wasn't willing to commit long term no matter what they say publicly.  They kicked the can down the road a year and the question is now what do they do with the 2021 season in the bag?

 

1.)  Do they make them play out their 5th year options and see how they do before coming to the table? 

2.)  Do they play hardball and negotiate a contract less than what Allen got even though the cap is about to explode?

3.)  Do they go after a free agent QB and move on? 

4.)  Do they give them a contract on par or better than Allen's because the other options are unpalatable for various reasons?

5.)  Do they draft a QB and start over (slim pickings this year, especially at their likely draft spot)?

 

I think Lamar clearly has a stronger hand to play than Baker.   Both franchises are in a corner here.  The best thing for the Bills is for both franchises to overpay for their QB.  It's going to be one of the best storylines of the off season this year.  I've got my popcorn ready. 

 

I'm so glad the Bills aren't in that boat.

 

 

 

welcome to the world of modern QBs.  You are either a star or bust with drafting team.  Mayfield/ Jackson coukd be a back up in buffalo next year while trubidky signs with one of those teams.

[Seventeen]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Great. I bet there is a queue of teams lining up to trade him if he has all the question marks you just set out. 

 

I think Baker will be the Browns Quarterback in 2022. 

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I'm sure there are a few teams that would take Baker off the Browns' hands. NYG, Houston, Denver just to name a few. Is Baker better than Darnold or Newton ? 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Roy Hobbs

[GunnerBill]

Just now, djp14150 said:

 

welcome to the world of modern QBs.  You are either a star or bust with drafting team.  Mayfield/ Jackson coukd be a back up in buffalo next year while trubidky signs with one of those teams.

 

No they couldn't 

Just now, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - I'm sure there are a few teams that would take Baker off the Browns' hands. NYG, Houston, Denver just to name a few.

 

He will be a Brown next year. 

[Seventeen]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No they couldn't 

 

He will be a Brown next year. 

 

Sure ... and Wentz is still with the Eagles. 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/baker-mayfield-landing-spots-texans-washington-among-potential-destinations-for-browns-qb-in-2022/

Edited January 5, 2022 by Roy Hobbs

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Sure ... and Wentz is still with the Eagles. 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/baker-mayfield-landing-spots-texans-washington-among-potential-destinations-for-browns-qb-in-2022/

 

Key line in that article:

 

"the chances are Cleveland will opt for familiarity and give Mayfield one more audition in 2022."

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Key line in that article:

 

"the chances are Cleveland will opt for familiarity and give Mayfield one more audition in 2022."

Good, it's settled then.  Media pundits state Browns favoured to win it all in 2022.

😁

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Makes you wonder if there's a lot more under the covers with Mayfield / Stefanski. Did Stefanski say why he left Hudson on his own to deal 

with T.J. Watt ? Mayfield could be gone but it would take Haslam admitting he was wrong about his #1 pick. 

 

Not sure the relationship is repairable ...

Yes - He responded that he did have guys set up to chip him at times and there were a variety of reasons that watt had his way, not just the times Hudson had him 1:1, and threw baker under the bus by saying that sometimes the protection was right but the ball didn’t come out fast enough. 

[DrDawkinstein]

Browns have themselves in a VERY Brownsy position.

 

I cant imagine having to commit $200-300M to... Baker Mayfield. 🤮

 

Thank the gods for Josh F'ing Allen.

[Nitro]

Jackson is not a problem.  Mayfield is injury prone and is a hot/cold QB.  The problem  is if they let him go, they will spend years finding an adequate replacement.

[y2zipper]

., With Lamar there's not really a decision here. Baltimore would be silly not to pick him up, especially after this year when he showed he can still win them games with several pieces missing. The wheels didn't really come off until Jackson got hurt. I would look to get them somewhere in the neighborhood of the 5-year 200 million extension on top of his fifth year option and it works out to like 6/223 with a lot of the guaranteed money on the front end of that. It's unconventional and Lamar Jackson probably isn't going to play until he's 45, but it's a no-brainer if you do a contract I get some somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 and then you reevaluate.

 

I'm with @Gunnerbill on Mayfield. This year is really a hard year to judge him or anybody on the browns because they've had so much injury. Mayfield will play on the option.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheFunPolice]

Lamar Jackson is a dynamic player that you have to game plan for. He also won an MVP. My concern with him is that he is a smaller body type and takes a lot of hits running the ball. But still, he is electric and deserves to be paid. 

 

Lamar is special and unique.

 

Baker is just a guy. There's nothing at all that is special about him. "He's tough" I guess, but lots of guys are tough. It's the NFL. 

 

Baker's not a bust, but he's also nothing special. Very Alex Smith-like in that you could do some winning with him in the right spot, but his attitude needs to improve IMO. Baker thinks he's a gunslinger but he is really suited to be a checkdown, game manager who hands the ball off and doesn't get his team beat. Can he handle that?

 

The game "going through your RB" is not why you draft a QB #1 overall, so he's a tremendous disappointment in that respect. But he's serviceable enough to get you to the divisional round and lose to the Bills, Chiefs, Ravens, or Bengals over the next handful of years. 

 

Sucks to be a Browns fan watching Burrow and knowing THAT is what a #1 overall pick QB looks like. Baker is the 3rd best QB in his own division, and that's only because Big Ben looked 73 years old the past 2 seasons and can't play anymore. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[Sherlock Holmes]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:31 AM, Inigo Montoya said:

When Beane extended Josh last year it was the expectation that Jackson and Mayfield would also get an extension done before the start of the regular season.  That never happened and now those two franchises find themselves with a bit of a dilemma.

 

Despite being voted to the Pro Bowl again (and Jackson's team will beat that drum despite the fact he clearly doesn't deserve it), Jackson has had a down year in almost every category and has not been available due to injury for part of the second half of the season.  He hasn't played well enough to get a contract that is more lucrative than Allen's, but that is what they are going to be asking for and it will be tough for the Ravens as an organization to pay him less.

 

Baker has had a terrible season and is also down in almost every meaningful statistical category despite being on a team loaded with talent and behind one of the best O-Lines in the NFL.  No NFL QB has had more interceptions than Baker has in the last four years. He has evolved into a serviceable game managing QB.  In fairness, he has dealt with a non-throwing shoulder injury that muddies the water this year a bit.

 

Here are how the 3 QBs line up statistically this year through Week 17;

 

Josh Allen 2021 

Games Played; 16

Completions;  385

Passing Yards;  4,168

Comp %;  64.1

Passing TD's;  34

INT's;  15

Rushing Yards; 700

Average Per Rush;  6 yards

Rushing TD's;  6

Rushing 1st Downs;  51

 

Lamar Jackson 2021   -  Pro Bowl 

Games Played; 13 full games (knocked out early in game 14)

Completions;  246

Passing Yards;  2,882

Comp %;  64.4

Passing TD's;  16

INT's;  13

Rushing Yards;  767

Average Per Rush;  5.8 yards

Rushing TD's;  2

Rushing 1st Downs;  48

 

Baker Mayfield 2021

Games Played;  15

Completions;  237

Passing Yards;  2,825

Comp %;  62.4

Passing TD's;  15

INT's;  11

Rushing Yards;  118

Average Per Rush;  3.4 yards

Rushing TD's;  1

Rushing 1st Downs;  10

 

Looking at those stats and watching the arc of their careers, while Josh isn't putting up numbers as spectacular as last year, I think he has proven that the 2020 season was not an anomaly.  He is one of the top five QBs in the NFL by any measuring stick.  Lamar and Baker on the other hand have had a year of inconsistency where they have played worse than last year and both teams are unlikely to make the playoffs. 

 

The fact that neither franchise locked down Lamar and Baker before this season means that the organizations harbor some doubt about them and wasn't willing to commit long term no matter what they say publicly.  They kicked the can down the road a year and the question is now what do they do with the 2021 season in the bag?

 

1.)  Do they make them play out their 5th year options and see how they do before coming to the table? 

2.)  Do they play hardball and negotiate a contract less than what Allen got even though the cap is about to explode?

3.)  Do they go after a free agent QB and move on? 

4.)  Do they give them a contract on par or better than Allen's because the other options are unpalatable for various reasons?

5.)  Do they draft a QB and start over (slim pickings this year, especially at their likely draft spot)?

 

I think Lamar clearly has a stronger hand to play than Baker.   Both franchises are in a corner here.  The best thing for the Bills is for both franchises to overpay for their QB.  It's going to be one of the best storylines of the off season this year.  I've got my popcorn ready. 

 

I'm so glad the Bills aren't in that boat.

 

 

Are we talking Dill or Bread and Butter?

[billsfan89]

Lamar I would commit to. He is a good QB he just doesn’t have a ton of talent around him skill position wise. He has his limitations but he is dynamic in other ways. They have won with him fairly consistently. 
 

But Baker I let him play out on the 5th year option and see what he has. Thus far he has been very injury prone and inconsistent. 

[JGMcD2]

23 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

You listed Herbert, Burrow, Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers specifically. Let's look at their comparative body of work as you call it... 

 

Here are their stats from the past two seasons side by side... please explain to me how the other 5 are definitively better than Josh Allen over the past two seasons. The per game stats are there too because I know you're going to argue Burrow was hurt and that it's not fair because of that... but on a per game basis he's still behind Josh Allen.

 

 

For reference Josh Allen (9845) is 2nd in total yards behind Patrick Mahomes (9944). Josh Allen (86) is also 2nd in total TDs behind Aaron Rodgers (89). Granted Josh Allen (34) also did turn the ball over a little bit more than everyone else. Brady (28), Burrow (25), Herbert (26), Mahomes (25) and Rodgers (11). 

 

I really shouldn't have to include this here... but because you said it's debatable that Josh Allen is behind Dak Prescott, Kyler Murray, Ryan Tannehill, Lamar Jackson and Derek Carr... let's take a look! (It's not letting upload the image, but I'll include right after this...)

 

Compared to this group, Josh Allen (9845) is 1st in total yards... the next closest is Derek Carr (8970)... followed by Kyler Murray (8732). Josh Allen (86) is also 1st in total TDs... the next closest is Kyler Murray (65) and Ryan Tannehill (64). 

 

Derek Carr (36) had the most turnovers. The others were Kyler Murray (26), Lamar Jackson (29), Dak Prescott (23) and Tannehill (26). A quick reminder that Murray, Prescott and Jackson all played less games than Josh Allen. 

 

Rodgers has clearly been the best QB over the past two seasons. It's not even close, the man is on another level.

 

The notion that you're arguing it's clear cut that Josh is behind the other 4 is insane... and then trying to debate he's somehow behind the other 5 is laughable. He's been playing like a top 3 QB - it's just a game of FilthyBeast manipulation if you want to try and argue he's behind the rest. 

 

We can discuss how to measure overall ceiling if you'd like, considering your "comparative body of work" argument doesn't really have legs... 

 

EDIT**** Adding the stats for the next group of 5 with Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Kyler Murray, Ryan Tannehill and Lamar Jackson.

 

@FilthyBeast

 

I’m assuming you’ve spent the past 24 hours crafting a really well thought out response? 

[Punching Bag]

13 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Listening to the pressers from mayfield and stefanski yesterday, I think those two are headed for a divorce.

 

Mayfield is the wife with the large alimony in this case but coaches contracts are completely guaranteed unless coach does a major foobar.

[Evian]

Lamar Jackson and Baker Mayfield are mediocre at best.

 

Tyler Huntley is a better QB than Jackson. Jackson will never beat the Mahomes, Allens, Herberts, and Burrows of the AFC. He can't throw the ball. Huntley is better than LJ and is way less expensive.

 

Baker Mayfield is gone. He too is never beating the elite AFC quarterbacks. 

 

The Browns and Ravens have tons of talent. The fact both are not making the playoffs all circles back to their non-elite quarterbacks.

 

I don't see either team giving them big money. They are not worth it.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Evian

[Evian]

3 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Lamar I would commit to. He is a good QB he just doesn’t have a ton of talent around him skill position wise. He has his limitations but he is dynamic in other ways. They have won with him fairly consistently. 

 

He is a good QB? He threw for 16 TD's and 13 INT this year. He is a great athlete and a mediocre QB at best.  He is like Mayfield. They lack the QB skills to go anywhere in the playoffs against the elite teams. They just are not good enough. 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/4/2022 at 7:28 AM, Coach Tuesday said:

Would love to see what Sean Peyton could do with Baker.  Same height as Brees.

 

Interesting.  It also took Brees what, 4 years in Sandy Eggo and Phillip Rivers being drafted, to start looking like he could play QB at a high level.  After which he had a career-threatening shoulder injury and signed with New Orleans, the rest being history

[JGMcD2]

29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Interesting.  It also took Brees what, 4 years in Sandy Eggo and Phillip Rivers being drafted, to start looking like he could play QB at a high level.  After which he had a career-threatening shoulder injury and signed with New Orleans, the rest being history

Baker in New Orleans is exactly what I would expect when the inevitable split in Cleveland occurs. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Baker in New Orleans is exactly what I would expect when the inevitable split in Cleveland occurs. 

 

Brees always had such pretty footwork.  And he learned to operate within the offensive system

Baker, not so much

[dakrider]

On 1/4/2022 at 2:10 PM, FireChans said:

Cleveland is in the same position the Vikings were 3 years ago. Too good to be terrible. Not good enough to be a true contender. With a QB who will be hard to replace.

 

For that reason, I think you pay Baker. 

Thats funny because Baker reminds me of Cousins, just good enough to lose the close games.

1 hour ago, Evian said:

Lamar Jackson and Baker Mayfield are mediocre at best.

 

Tyler Huntley is a better QB than Jackson. Jackson will never beat the Mahomes, Allens, Herberts, and Burrows of the AFC. He can't throw the ball. Huntley is better than LJ and is way less expensive.

 

Baker Mayfield is gone. He too is never beating the elite AFC quarterbacks. 

 

The Browns and Ravens have tons of talent. The fact both are not making the playoffs all circles back to their non-elite quarterbacks.

 

I don't see either team giving them big money. They are not worth it.

Huntley will get a good contract next year to be a starter next year.  Denver Broncos should go after him and let Bridgewater who wants $25M, walk.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Evian said:

Lamar Jackson and Baker Mayfield are mediocre at best.

 

Tyler Huntley is a better QB than Jackson. Jackson will never beat the Mahomes, Allens, Herberts, and Burrows of the AFC. He can't throw the ball. Huntley is better than LJ and is way less expensive.

 

Baker Mayfield is gone. He too is never beating the elite AFC quarterbacks. 

 

The Browns and Ravens have tons of talent. The fact both are not making the playoffs all circles back to their non-elite quarterbacks.

 

I don't see either team giving them big money. They are not worth it.

Jackson literally beat Mahomes this year. 
 

this is a troll post

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, dakrider said:

Thats funny because Baker reminds me of Cousins, just good enough to lose the close games.

He reminds me of a poor man’s trace mcsorley 

[YoloinOhio]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:26 AM, Watkins90 said:

The question is, what does the QB Class in 2023 look like? Is next year the year to bottom out and get a high draft pick?

Coleridge Bernard Stroud IV. He throws the most catchable ball. Melts into thee hand. 149 miles south down 71…. Wyd brownies 

[stuvian]

If the Ravens don't sign Lamar, they're Chicago Bears level stupid. He has carried that team on his back to the point of absurdity.

 

The Browns should release Baker. He's not a fit for their offense. Baker should go to the Saints and insert himself as Drew Brees 2.0. Not saying he's as good as Brees but he's a better fit for their fast break turf offense.

 

So the question becomes what should the Browns do at QB. They need an arm who can compliment the power run game and play well in the cold.

 

As this QB draft appears weak, we look to the FA market. Even throwing in the kitchen sink I don't see Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson going there.

 

They could entice Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins or opt for Deshaun Watson pending the legal issues. They'll need an experienced back up who can carry the team for a few games like Cam Newton, Teddy Bridgewater, Tyrod Taylor or Joe Flacco.

Edited January 6, 2022 by stuvian

[DrDawkinstein]

 

 

And so it begins...

 

[YoloinOhio]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

And so it begins...

 

Yikes Bucky 😂

 

[Blank Stare]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

Yikes Bucky 😂

 

[FilthyBeast]

16 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

@FilthyBeast

 

I’m assuming you’ve spent the past 24 hours crafting a really well thought out response? 

 

Sorry been tied up with some things so I could respond sooner.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and again I'm not disputing Allen being in the upper 3rd of NFL QB's from a statistical standpoint.  He is and only a fool would tell you otherwise.

 

The crux of my argument is that you have to look at the accolades that matter (at least in terms of the 'experts') and prior to 2021 Allen had one good season on film which many felt (and still feel) was fluky because of the covid year circumstances. So if we are debating the fact that his extension was given on potential that's another thing, but in terms of being a proven commodity Allen really isn't yet unless he can elevate this team to another level in the playoffs and at minimum make another AFCCG appearance.

 

But going back to my personal feelings, I'm still taking the guys I mentioned over Allen today because I'm not a biased fan and have seen more pure raw talent to believe they are going to be all time great HOF types that win multiple championships and/or elevate their teams. Allen could be too but still think the odds are against that if anything because of how inconsistent he still is 4 years into his career.

[nucci]

31 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

And so it begins...

 

Maybe start with giving Chubb the ball a few more times a game.

[JGMcD2]

4 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Sorry been tied up with some things so I could respond sooner.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and again I'm not disputing Allen being in the upper 3rd of NFL QB's from a statistical standpoint.  He is and only a fool would tell you otherwise.

 

The crux of my argument is that you have to look at the accolades that matter (at least in terms of the 'experts') and prior to 2021 Allen had one good season on film which many felt (and still feel) was fluky because of the covid year circumstances. So if we are debating the fact that his extension was given on potential that's another thing, but in terms of being a proven commodity Allen really isn't yet unless he can elevate this team to another level in the playoffs and at minimum make another AFCCG appearance.

 

But going back to my personal feelings, I'm still taking the guys I mentioned over Allen today because I'm not a biased fan and have seen more pure raw talent to believe they are going to be all time great HOF types that win multiple championships and/or elevate their teams. Allen could be too but still think the odds are against that if anything because of how inconsistent he still is 4 years into his career.

Wait a minute…

 

Josh Allen needs to elevate his team to another level and at a minimum take them to another AFCCG in order to prove himself. 
 

Meanwhile Justin Herbert has never won his division, Joe Burrow just did for the first time and neither have a playoff game under their belt yet. How in God’s name are they more of a proven quantity than him? Burrow (.462) and Herbert (.484) are both sub .500 in their first two seasons. Josh was winning games at a .555 clip his first two years. 

Inconsistent 4 years into his career? The man has statistically been a top 3 QB the past two seasons and has progressed year to year. His numbers are down SLIGHTLY from last year, but nothing that’s overwhelmingly concerning considering he’s still 80% of a top 3 scoring offense in football. His “inconsistency” today is extremely different than his inconsistency as a rookie. Don’t try and lump the two in together, it’s disingenuous. His down games today still result in multi-score wins and his best games have him shredding the NFL’s top defenses.

 

Do you ever read back through what you’ve said and realize nothing adds up? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 1/4/2022 at 12:59 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

Based on his play this season absolutely you could get similar production out of Nick Mullens. I am a little reluctant to draw too many definitive conclusions on Baker from this season though. I genuinely think he has toughed it out playing hurt when the wise call to protect his value might have been to sit. The question is can you get 2020 Baker Mayfield consistently because if you can in the type of offense Stefanski runs then that is not so easily replaceable and I think he is worth $30m based on the current market. I think that is his ceiling but if he could be that guy consistently he is in that Kirk Cousins category and I'd never advocate moving off Cousins until a guy beats him out. That is why my strategy would be exactly what Washington did with Cousins which is put the decision off. Let him play on the option next year, if you still don't know then franchise tag him for a year. If you still don't know franchise tag him again. That means you have 3 more years to either work it out or to find a replacement somehow (that list bit was what Washington did wrong, they never tried to bring in an alternative and so were stuck when Cousins walked). 

 

Absolutely Cleveland should have sat Baker when it was clear he wasn’t functioning properly as a QB.  Why else bring in Keenum?  He is proven successful in just this sort of system that Stefanski runs.

 

To be fair to Washington, they felt they were bringing in an alternative when they traded for Alex Smith.  He had just had a career year in KC and historically was tougher than boot leather.  That broken leg was just hella bad luck.