A simple fix that would make our “D” dominant against run first offenses

[Lenigmusx]

In the past the personnel groupings in the linebacker room coupled with pass first opponents have really made this a moot point. However this season, especially with Tre’s injury, I think Frazier needs to mix in some true 4-3 and even 4-4 packages. I think that a combo of:

     Wallace, Hyde, Poyer, Johnson

            Klein, Edmonds, Milano 

   Epenesa, Star, Oliver, Rousseau 

 
 

                         Or 

      Wallace, Poyer, Neal (speed

Klein, Edmonds, Milano,Hughes(Hyde)

   Epenesa, Star, Oliver, Rousseau 

 

I think these groupings would go a long way to shutting down the run first teams. Every 4-3 “D” has similar personnel groupings and doesn’t always run these nickel packages and weird 5-2 combos. D Line Gap integrity and LB’s running down hill are how to stop the run at every level of Football. This is something that could make the D elite. The personnel are there!!! 

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Lenigmusx

[Captain_Quint]

Maybe they have just been waiting for the perfect time to unveil that. It'd be crazy if it happened right after you made the thread! 

[SoCal Deek]

I’m not sure about whether it’d be to stop the run or simply to put your best players on the field. With Tre out, the coaching staff needs to decide if it’s better to add Klein, a back up LB, or Dane Jackson, a back up CB to the starting roster. It’s just that simple. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

44 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure about whether it’d be to stop the run or simply to put your best players on the field. With Tre out, the coaching staff needs to decide if it’s better to add Klein, a back up LB, or Dane Jackson, a back up CB to the starting roster. It’s just that simple. 

 

Not really.  You want two CBs playing.  In preseason, if I recall correctly, Johnson did not look so good as a boundry CB. 

So to put Klein on the field, you need to take Johnson off AND have Dane Jackson playing.

[MJS]

The Bills are top 5 against the run already.

[delirious]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

The Bills are top 5 against the run already.

 

Terrible take.

 

When that stat actually mattered against forealz run heavy teams (Titans and Colts), they were no-shows.

[MJS]

Just now, delirious said:

 

Terrible take.

 

When that stat actually mattered against forealz run heavy teams (Titans and Colts), they were no-shows.

It's not a terrible take, or a "take" at all. It's the truth. The Bills are top 5 in yards per game and yards per attempt.

 

And the fans come on here and spout nonsense about having 1 CB on the field or moving our nickel corner to the boundary? It shows a hilarious lack of understanding of how football works.

[SCBills]

I’m sure I’m thinking of this too simplistically, but why not have our Gameday Active DL be the following:

 

Outside:

Hughes, Addison, Rousseau, Epenesa

 

Inside:

Star, Oliver, Bryant, Ankou

 

Inside/Outside

Obada OR Basham

 

Butler seems useless with effort issues.  
 

Harry displays effort, but he just isn’t consistent enough.  

 

Keep the Base Nickel Defense as is, but make sure we have multiple big bodies on the inside.   It also allows Oliver to wreck shop on the opposing OL. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 minutes ago, MJS said:

It's not a terrible take, or a "take" at all. It's the truth. The Bills are top 5 in yards per game and yards per attempt.

 

And the fans come on here and spout nonsense about having 1 CB on the field or moving our nickel corner to the boundary? It shows a hilarious lack of understanding of how football works.

No it just proves the addage there are statistics and there are lies.

Yes they are top 5 against the rush.  But the opponents they have played have terrible offenses. They could not handle Tenn or Indianapolis. New England is not in their league though so hopefully Bills D will do the job.

[Bob in STL]

9 minutes ago, MJS said:

It's not a terrible take, or a "take" at all. It's the truth. The Bills are top 5 in yards per game and yards per attempt.

 

And the fans come on here and spout nonsense about having 1 CB on the field or moving our nickel corner to the boundary? It shows a hilarious lack of understanding of how football works.

Agree. The second the offense sees one CB on the field there will be a audible to a pass play and someone will be wide open for a big play.  
 

 

[mikemac2001]

26 minutes ago, delirious said:

 

Terrible take.

 

When that stat actually mattered against forealz run heavy teams (Titans and Colts), they were no-shows.

Against the top 2 backs this year

 

dumb 

[delirious]

43 minutes ago, mikemac2001 said:

Against the top 2 backs this year

 

dumb 

 

What are backs without a OLine? The Bills historically tend to do bad against big offensive lines that are mauling.

 

"2 top backs this year" is an excuse.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, delirious said:

 

Terrible take.

 

When that stat actually mattered against forealz run heavy teams (Titans and Colts), they were no-shows.

 

 

Yeah, no-shows against the Colts. Star and Edmunds. Total no-shows, it was like they weren't even on the field. Oh, wait, they didn't actually play. No wonder they were no-shows.

 

As for the Titans, they had that one long long run, but except for that one play, which appeared to be greatly due to Hyde taking a bad angle, the Bills were actually pretty decent against the run. Not great, certainly, and you can't just pretend that the big play didn't happen. But you absolutely can say that for most of the game they were not destroyed by the run. They were certainly not no-shows.

 

 

[delirious]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

It's not a terrible take, or a "take" at all. It's the truth. The Bills are top 5 in yards per game and yards per attempt.

 

And the fans come on here and spout nonsense about having 1 CB on the field or moving our nickel corner to the boundary? It shows a hilarious lack of understanding of how football works.

 

The Bills also have one of the easiest schedules this year.  So I don't put much weight in that. But power to you

4 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, no-shows against the Colts. Star and Edmunds. Total no-shows, it was like they weren't even on the field. Oh, wait, they didn't actually play. No wonder they were no-shows.

 

As for the Titans, they had that one long long run, but except for that one play, which appeared to be greatly due to Hyde taking a bad angle, the Bills were actually pretty decent against the run. Not great, certainly, and you can't just pretend that the big play didn't happen. But you absolutely can say that for most of the game they were not destroyed by the run. They were certainly not no-shows.

 

 

 

Oh right, star and Edmunds are the saviors. We'll just ignore all the other games where big offensive lines dominated us.   They help, but in their years on this team, there are more than just a game or two where we've gotten ran all over.

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

The Bills are top 5 against the run already.

 

1 hour ago, delirious said:

 

Terrible take.

 

When that stat actually mattered against forealz run heavy teams (Titans and Colts), they were no-shows.

 

It's just easy to say, "the Bills can't run the ball and they can't stop the run."  Kind of like it was easy to say, "Josh Allen is inaccurate."

 

Welcome to www.lazynarratives.com

 

 

[delirious]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

 

It's just easy to say, "the Bills can't run the ball and they can't stop the run."  Kind of like it was easy to say, "Josh Allen is inaccurate."

 

Welcome to www.lazynarratives.com

 

 

 

I'm not saying they can't stop the run. There's nuance, and just throwing up a stat that doesn't accurately reflect a team that historically does bad against big mauling type offensive lines and having the one of the easiest schedules this year is the lazy take.

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

why don't they run a 9-4 package?  the have the personnel....

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

3 hours ago, Lenigmusx said:

In the past the personnel groupings in the linebacker room coupled with pass first opponents have really made this a moot point. However this season, especially with Tre’s injury, I think Frazier needs to mix in some true 4-3 and even 4-4 packages. I think that a combo of:

     Wallace, Hyde, Poyer, Johnson

            Klein, Edmonds, Milano 

   Epenesa, Star, Oliver, Rousseau 

 
 

                         Or 

      Wallace, Poyer, Neal (speed

Klein, Edmonds, Milano,Hughes(Hyde)

   Epenesa, Star, Oliver, Rousseau 

 

I think these groupings would go a long way to shutting down the run first teams. Every 4-3 “D” has similar personnel groupings and doesn’t always run these nickel packages and weird 5-2 combos. D Line Gap integrity and LB’s running down hill are how to stop the run at every level of Football. This is something that could make the D elite. The personnel are there!!! 

 

He was saving this for NE😎

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, delirious said:

 

I'm not saying they can't stop the run. There's nuance, and just throwing up a stat that doesn't accurately reflect a team that historically does bad against big mauling type offensive lines and having the one of the easiest schedules this year is the lazy take.

 

 

 

And simply saying "they were no-shows" against the Titans and the Colts is a lazy take

[delirious]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

And simply saying "they were no-shows" against the Titans and the Colts is a lazy take

 

It's hyperbole, if you'd like me to use a more descript name, then fine. They struggled. Satisfied?

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

I’m sure I’m thinking of this too simplistically, but why not have our Gameday Active DL be the following:

 

Outside:

Hughes, Addison, Rousseau, Epenesa

 

Inside:

Star, Oliver, Bryant, Ankou

 

Inside/Outside

Obada OR Basham

 

Butler seems useless with effort issues.  
 

Harry displays effort, but he just isn’t consistent enough.  

 

Keep the Base Nickel Defense as is, but make sure we have multiple big bodies on the inside.   It also allows Oliver to wreck shop on the opposing OL. 

 

Phillips played more than Bryant and Ankou against NO.  There's no guarantee that Star is back against NE.  He's a big guy who had COVID.  He might be awhile if his conditioning deteriorated or if he is fatigued. (Or if--as humans we all hope this isn't the case with anyone, Buffalo Bill or otherwise--he has a more serious case of COVID.)

[SCBills]

22 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, no-shows against the Colts. Star and Edmunds. Total no-shows, it was like they weren't even on the field. Oh, wait, they didn't actually play. No wonder they were no-shows.

 

As for the Titans, they had that one long long run, but except for that one play, which appeared to be greatly due to Hyde taking a bad angle, the Bills were actually pretty decent against the run. Not great, certainly, and you can't just pretend that the big play didn't happen. But you absolutely can say that for most of the game they were not destroyed by the run. They were certainly not no-shows.

 

 

The run game was absolutely an issue in the Titans game.  
 

A) You can’t just take a big run “out of it”

 

B)  Our entire Defense got shredded due to an overreaction to their run ability.  

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, delirious said:

 

I'm not saying they can't stop the run. There's nuance, and just throwing up a stat that doesn't accurately reflect a team that historically does bad against big mauling type offensive lines and having the one of the easiest schedules this year is the lazy take.

 

 

 

They gave up yards to the two best running backs in the NFL.   In 11 games, they've given up fewer than 80 yards in eight of them.

[billsfan1959]

Just now, delirious said:

 

It's hyperbole, if you'd like me to use a more descript name, then fine. They struggled. Satisfied?

 

Nope. You still didn't say anything at all. Why don't you take a moment and describe to us how and why, in your opinion, they struggled against the Titans and then the Colts - and whether those "struggles" can be fixed and how. Now that would not be a lazy take.

[delirious]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

They gave up yards to the two best running backs in the NFL.   In 11 games, they've given up fewer than 80 yards in eight of them.

 

Running backs are not as good without offensive lines. See Barkley, Saquon.

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Nope. You still didn't say anything at all. Why don't you take a moment and describe to us how and why, in your opinion, they struggled against the Titans and then the Colts - and whether those "struggles" can be fixed and how. Now that would not be a lazy take.

 

I've said multiple times that the bills have strugged most of the times against mauling type offensive lines.

 

My opinion on fixing that is bigger 1techs and 3techs.

 

I specifically wanted Alim McNeil this year in the draft.

[Nextmanup]

Since we're proposing new ideas to help the team here...

 

How about Josh Allen returns all punts?

 

Also, how about Josh Allen play QB and WR on the same play?

 

Crazy? Or brilliant?

 

🤔

 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Personally, I think rooting for the Colts not to make the playoffs, and by starting with a loss to the Bucs today, that is part 1 of my plan.

Part 2 is Derrick Henry missing the rest of the season.

[TN Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

It's not a terrible take, or a "take" at all. It's the truth. The Bills are top 5 in yards per game and yards per attempt.

 

And the fans come on here and spout nonsense about having 1 CB on the field or moving our nickel corner to the boundary? It shows a hilarious lack of understanding of how football works.

Stopping the Jets, Texans or Saints run game is no great feat. The have played 4 good teams and lost to 3 of them.  2 of those teams buried them with the run.  Do you want to go 1 and out in the playoffs?  Then don't change anything.

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, SCBills said:

The run game was absolutely an issue in the Titans game.  
 

A) You can’t just take a big run “out of it”

 

B)  Our entire Defense got shredded due to an overreaction to their run ability.  

 

A) He is not taking the run out of it. Derrick Henry had a 76 yard run, which really was because of a bad angle. Outside of that, the Titans russhed 21 times for 70 yds, a 3.3 YPC average. The point is that the defense didn't get run over.

 

B) The Titans had 362 total yards in that game, with 76 yards on one play. Which means they managed 286 yards on their other 50 plays. Again, not discounting the 76 yard run. Just pointing out that the defense hardly got "shredded." 

 

In the end, the Bills still should have won that game. The loss was less about what the Titans did than what the Bills didn't do.

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

A) He is not taking the run out of it. Derrick Henry had a 76 yard run, which really was because of a bad angle. Outside of that, the Titans russhed 21 times for 70 yds, a 3.3 YPC average. The point is that the defense didn't get run over.

 

B) The Titans had 362 total yards in that game, with 76 yards on one play. Which means they managed 286 yards on their other 50 plays. Again, not discounting the 76 yard run. Just pointing out that the defense hardly got "shredded." 

 

In the end, the Bills still should have won that game. The loss was less about what the Titans did than what the Bills didn't do.

They scored on every possession after the 1st Quarter.   No idea how you think that’s not getting shredded. 

[billsfan1959]

10 minutes ago, SCBills said:

They scored on every possession after the 1st Quarter.   No idea how you think that’s not getting shredded. 

 

Well you certainly can say that if you are lazy and do not care to actually analyze the play on the field. You do know that it is possible to give up points, even a lot of points, without your defense being "shredded," right? You know, like a team having to only go 11 yds for a TD after a turnover, or taking a bad angle on one play that ends up as a 76 yard TD run, etc. 

 

The thing is, there are a lot of variables that go into how any given game unfolds...

 

 

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

Offensive Coordinators HATE this one simple trick will make your defense dominant.  Click to find out more!

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not really.  You want two CBs playing.  In preseason, if I recall correctly, Johnson did not look so good as a boundry CB. 

So to put Klein on the field, you need to take Johnson off AND have Dane Jackson playing.

Yes and no 

Remember I’m not voting for this but the coaching staff needs to evaluate the roster as it stands now with Tre out. It might be that Taron and Dane need to compete for the now open CB spot. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out but one thing I know is that the coaches are about to earn their money.

[CSBill]

This thread reminds me of the old Crazy Eddie commercials: “CRAZY EDDIE, his prices are INSANE!”

[BADOLBILZ]

 

When the Bills have problems defending the run it's about a lack of want-to and poor technique.

 

You will never see a greater example of it than the Bills team in 2017 that got trampled in the worst 3 game stretch in team history.........but then later went into their wild card game against Jacksonville the most short handed they had been all season and gave an inspired performance stoning the Jags running backs for a 2.6 ypc average on 25 carries in limiting Jax to 10 points.    Want-to and technique.

 

These Bills have no excuse for being weak against the run...........they are 10 deep with DL players who are capable and healthy.   And at this point of the season no DL is more well rested than the Bills.   It's not a thin unit up front like the one that finished 2017.

 

Hopefully they are past their "dog days" for this season and come into that Patriots game focused on being physical and disciplined.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

When the Bills have problems defending the run it's about a lack of want-to and poor technique.

 

You will never see a greater example of it than the Bills team in 2017 that got trampled in the worst 3 game stretch in team history.........but then later went into their wild card game against Jacksonville the most short handed they had been all season and gave an inspired performance stoning the Jags running backs for a 2.6 ypc average on 25 carries in limiting Jax to 10 points.    Want-to and technique.

 

These Bills have no excuse for being weak against the run...........they are 10 deep with DL players who are capable and healthy.   And at this point of the season no DL is more well rested than the Bills.   It's not a thin unit up front like the one that finished 2017.

 

Hopefully they are past their "dog days" for this season and come into that Patriots game focused on being physical and disciplined.

 

I think there is a lot of truth to this albeit we have seen Frazier make scheme adjustments in the past to try and shut down very run heavy offenses - the "bear front" and Edmunds on the edge in San Francisco last year and then the heavy use of 'base' personnel with Klein on the field against Baltimore in the playoffs. I do think had Edmunds been healthy for the Colts game we might have seen something more like that, but once he wasn't you are asking yourself are you taking a really good, vet, nickel corner off the field in order to bring in a 4th or 5th choice linebacker and the Bills decided the preferable approach was to keep their most talented guys out there. Once you make that decision of course it puts even more emphasis on the desire and technique of the guys on the field. And pretty much from the moment Isaiah muffed that punt against Indy it felt like the Bills guys just gave up. 

[Spiderweb]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

No it just proves the addage there are statistics and there are lies.

Yes they are top 5 against the rush.  But the opponents they have played have terrible offenses. They could not handle Tenn or Indianapolis. New England is not in their league though so hopefully Bills D will do the job.

Really? The Cheatriots have been winning with their ground game. Maybe you missed this?

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think there is a lot of truth to this albeit we have seen Frazier make scheme adjustments in the past to try and shut down very run heavy offenses - the "bear front" and Edmunds on the edge in San Francisco last year and then the heavy use of 'base' personnel with Klein on the field against Baltimore in the playoffs. I do think had Edmunds been healthy for the Colts game we might have seen something more like that, but once he wasn't you are asking yourself are you taking a really good, vet, nickel corner off the field in order to bring in a 4th or 5th choice linebacker and the Bills decided the preferable approach was to keep their most talented guys out there. Once you make that decision of course it puts even more emphasis on the desire and technique of the guys on the field. And pretty much from the moment Isaiah muffed that punt against Indy it felt like the Bills guys just gave up. 

Really? disagree they gave up at halftime

Klein would be our 3rd choice at LB

Edited November 28, 2021 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[dma0034]

The Bills definitely game plan for each team and whomever they meet in the playoffs will have what they do best challenged. Not a doubt in my mind if the Bills play the Colts or Browns in the playoffs they'll load the box and make Wentz and Baker beat you.

[DrPJax]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

The Bills are top 5 against the run already.

Yeah they sure looked that way against Henry and Taylor.  The pats were built to be power running specifically for division rivals the Bills. Fools that with expert play action qb Brady and lefts truly see where we stand , esp now with our lock down corner gone. Couldn’t have been a worse injury for us at a more critical times. Those stupid loses to the Steelers at. Home, jags in Jax , and loss to Titans as Dawkins gets blown up and josh jumps to the left  and slips as right of center was wide open , which were “ wake up calls” sure have proven how each game matters as now we face our toughest part of our schedule. Saints game proved little , and Mcd better get that under achieving d line to actually sack some one And keep sound gap control.  Without white,, it’s just gotten easier to get the ball out quicker. Don’t look now but Mcd never changes out/of the 4-2-5 , so I would be shocked with moving pieces around except for the cb. The pats d has taken over the past few weeks with sacks, Take away s, and points allowed.according to sims , boomer et Al!  We are in trouble as our wins came against bottom dwellers. Next two -3 weeks hold our true potential , not prior meaningless stats. 
 

our playoff hopes lie with josh and his ability to quit holding the ball too long behind this pourous line and quit throwing ints as possessions will matter.  Can  Daboll finally get creative with Brieda , stop forcing moss on second and long, and can we keep a semi healthy o line ( as I believe Dawkins s is not healthy and Brown s back could easily recur).    Last year we were healthy nil the final two games.  This year Covid has been worse for us and beasly and white are big issues as well , white being lost for the year.  Pats with #1 scoring d in the NFL , JUST WHAT OUR O LINE AND JOSH STRUGGLE AGAINST.  Luck has not been with us this year , as who expected the pats with a rookie QB to be leading our dfivusiin this late in the year as that power run game is flourishing!?  SO FAR MCD IS BEING OUTCOACHED AS the pats look like the real, contenders.  Next Monday could mean our season, let’s see how Mcd does!