Frostbite Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, FireChans said: What other Bills QB do you have above him Kelly and Kemp. Don't get me wrong, Josh is great and i believe he can easily be the best bills qb ever, just think it's hard to say he's the best ever as of today. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JY422 Posted November 17, 2021 Author Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said: Gabe Davis? Our 4th WR is on track to be a Bills all-time great? LOL Really?? Young, big, fast, great work ethic, great teammate, catches everything thrown his way. He’s got the makings just like Moulds and Stevie did. It took them a few years to become the number 1 but when they were called on they were ready. Gabe will be too. 1 hour ago, KzooMike said: Wow, we have entered into a new era of dumb with this thread. Isn’t this a “Fan Forum” discussion board? New era of dumb? Dang bro… I’m a fan just like you who enjoys talking all things Bills both past and present. On second thought, I’m a much better fan than you. I’m not all greased up with bitterness like you apparently are. Here’s to health and happiness for you and yours and a little thanksgiving miracle called “kindness.” Go Bills! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeLLy1278 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Greg S said: Right now I would say third best behind Kelly and Kemp. One has 4 Super Bowl appearances the other 2 AFL championships which are the only championships in Bills history. Thank you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, JY422 said: Isn’t this a “Fan Forum” discussion board? New era of dumb? Dang bro… I’m a fan just like you who enjoys talking all things Bills both past and present. On second thought, I’m a much better fan than you. I’m not all greased up with bitterness like you apparently are. Here’s to health and happiness for you and yours and a little thanksgiving miracle called “kindness.” Go Bills! Oh calm down, I'm not greased up with bitterness, I'm calling a spade a spade. You're right, this is a fan forum. I thought your post was one of the most short sighted I read on the forum in a long time and I have been here awhile. Perhaps I could have stated it with more sensitivity. Happy Holidays. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ticketssince61 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 13 hours ago, JY422 said: Not one thing about Kemp stands out ahead of Allen other than longevity. How about winning championships? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 I think I'd elevate Diggs to Tier 1 right now. We have had some nice receivers over the years...Frank Lewis! Jerry Butler! Andre! Lofton! Lee Evans; Stevie Johnson; Eric Moulds, Terrell Owens (almost forgot about him!) Peerless Price, Ahmad Rashad! I'm sure I'm missing a few good ones... But how many of those were basically the best WR in the game while they were a Bill? Even Andre Reed was not that. TO was way past his prime as a Bill; Most of James Lofton's career came as a Packer. I'd easily say Diggs is as good a WR as we've ever had. Certainly top 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 4 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Allen I can buy as #2 behind Kelly, with Kemp third and Fergy 4th. White? He's in there with Byrd, Egerson, James - he's at least in the discussion Poyer and Hyde? Saimes, Tony Greene, Henry Jones - Poyer and Hyde are top 5 Dawkins? Way behind Wolford, Barber, Peters; behind Dave Foley and Fina WRs: You have to have Reed and Moulds in your top two, have to have that, then Lofton, then Jerry Butler who may have been the best of all if he didn't get hurt. Diggs could get into the top three. To suggest Beasley would is laughable. Bass could very well wind up #1 but right now is behind Gogolak, Christie, and others LBs: Edmunds and Milano would have to prove they are better long term than a whole host of guys including, in the middle, Fletcher, Harry Jacobs, Conlan, Haslett, Shane Nelson, eugene Marve. And outside Milano would have to beat out Stratton, John Tracy, Bennett. Talley, Paup, Spikes just to name a few You forgot Dubenion for receivers, but spot on with everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 14 hours ago, FireChans said: Allen is the best QB the Bills have ever had. The rest of them? nah. There's a lot of "I'm older than you so I know better" bias in these responses. See my comments about Diggs...he's easily as good as WR as the Bills have EVER had... If anything, modern players should receive a grading curve in their favor, b/c they play the game NOW, where everyone is a monster who can fly. I always love the names that come out of the woodwork from 1963...when OLmen were 250 pounds, some guys played both ways, and linebackers were, among other things, ridiculously slow by modern standards. A garden variety player in todays' game would be a talent standout in the '50s or '60s. In the NHL, the average player talent gap between now and even the '80s or '90s is HUGE. I'd argue half the starting NHL goalies of the 1980s would not be AHL goalies now, let alone NHL starters. But now I'm discussing hockey and not football. Anyway, some of the old timers (i'm close to one myself) might want to re-evaluate how great those old players were. Could they even play in today's game? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) Let's have some historical perspective. None of the current O linemen is better than the O line during the Electric Company days. None (NONE) of the current offense is better than their counterpart in 1990-91. At every single position, that team had a better player than we have today. O line? No question. RB? Thurman and Davis both better than Singletary or Moss. WR? Reed and Lofton and Beebe (Diggs right now maybe beats out Beebe). TE? Metzelaars AND McKellar. And of course OJ at RB is the best player (IMHO) the Bills ever had, even better than Bruce Smith. The Bills have a 61 year history. On D their 64-65 team had an incredible line, all better than anyone on the today's team. The SB team D lines had Bruce Smith and some other guys, all good players but in comparison to Smith, JAGs. We've had GREAT LBs over the years. Too many to mention. And too many great DBs to mention. The current D is the best 11 man unit, for playing together and shutting down offenses, that I can remember. Kudos to Frazier for getting all these good players all working together so well. But individually, talentwise, none of the current team is superior to at least one and generally several players from the good teams we had in the past. Steve Christie is the best kicker we ever had, and Scott Norwood was also extremely good despite his famous miss. For punters, Paul Maguire (yep, the LB and broadcaster) was the most effective weapon we ever had, and Brian Moorman was excellent for many years. Finally, Steve Tasker. Nuff said. Quite a few current Bills are too new to challenge those older players but appear to have the talent to do so. Here's hoping they do! It would be great if some of them excel to the extent that they are honestly the best at their position all-time. By the way, no one has mentioned Ted Washington. Good Lord, if we had him now the Bills would go undefeated unless Cody Ford plays. Edited November 17, 2021 by Utah John 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billykay Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 35 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: There's a lot of "I'm older than you so I know better" bias in these responses. See my comments about Diggs...he's easily as good as WR as the Bills have EVER had... If anything, modern players should receive a grading curve in their favor, b/c they play the game NOW, where everyone is a monster who can fly. I always love the names that come out of the woodwork from 1963...when OLmen were 250 pounds, some guys played both ways, and linebackers were, among other things, ridiculously slow by modern standards. A garden variety player in todays' game would be a talent standout in the '50s or '60s. In the NHL, the average player talent gap between now and even the '80s or '90s is HUGE. I'd argue half the starting NHL goalies of the 1980s would not be AHL goalies now, let alone NHL starters. But now I'm discussing hockey and not football. Anyway, some of the old timers (i'm close to one myself) might want to re-evaluate how great those old players were. Could they even play in today's game? I've never seen a better tackler from any era or at any position than George Saimes 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, billykay said: I've never seen a better tackler from any era or at any position than George Saimes Maybe Ed Reed. But no Bill was ever better at tackling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nextmanup said: There's a lot of "I'm older than you so I know better" bias in these responses. See my comments about Diggs...he's easily as good as WR as the Bills have EVER had... If anything, modern players should receive a grading curve in their favor, b/c they play the game NOW, where everyone is a monster who can fly. I always love the names that come out of the woodwork from 1963...when OLmen were 250 pounds, some guys played both ways, and linebackers were, among other things, ridiculously slow by modern standards. A garden variety player in todays' game would be a talent standout in the '50s or '60s. In the NHL, the average player talent gap between now and even the '80s or '90s is HUGE. I'd argue half the starting NHL goalies of the 1980s would not be AHL goalies now, let alone NHL starters. But now I'm discussing hockey and not football. Anyway, some of the old timers (i'm close to one myself) might want to re-evaluate how great those old players were. Could they even play in today's game? I think the OP missed on the way this should have been presented (I'm not dogging you OP it is a good question just confusing). Some are looking at it more like a single season, others are looking at it as far as a career and body of work, then others looking at it like pure talent. As an example, I would I take 2020 Diggs against any season James Lofton had AS A BILL, but not any in his career nor for his career and body of work. I also can't discount Andre Reed, Eric Mould's, or Elbert Dubenion career body work as a Bill compared to Diggs. I also think you have to look at performance relative to pears, well, if that's how you choose to look at it. Obviously any modern athlete is superior, is that how we want to look at this? I really don't know if that's a fair look. That said if this is a Bills list, I feel the standard should be both career and body of work as a Bill. At which point, nobody on our roster could be eligible yet. Some are inching closer. So the question would become who likely can it be? Which really becomes interesting because it's impacted by how good we have been at some positions historically as well as your future outlook of our roster. We are likely furthest away at RB and probably DE, just because Bruce was an all timer. He goes on every list, not just Bills lists. Then we have nobody close to OJ or Thurman. Edited November 17, 2021 by KzooMike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern_Bills Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 The only person currently on the team that deserves to be on the Bills ring of honor is Jerry Hughes. Period. The end. The guys mentioned "should" end up there but longevity is definitely a part of it. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JY422 Posted November 17, 2021 Author Share Posted November 17, 2021 2 hours ago, KzooMike said: Oh calm down, I'm not greased up with bitterness, I'm calling a spade a spade. You're right, this is a fan forum. I thought your post was one of the most short sighted I read on the forum in a long time and I have been here awhile. Perhaps I could have stated it with more sensitivity. Happy Holidays. well played Mike. It's all fun and games anyway. Happy Holidays to you too. Go Bills! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Utah John said: TE? Metzelaars AND McKellar. I think Dawson Knox is about 2 healthy seasons away from being on our all-time TE list, which says more about the status of the position in Bills history than it does about Knox’s brilliance so far (fine player that he is). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 11 minutes ago, JY422 said: well played Mike. It's all fun and games anyway. Happy Holidays to you too. Go Bills! Honestly, I think I just got frustrated by how it was presented, because it is pretty damn interesting as long is everybody is looking at it the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, ticketssince61 said: How about winning championships? Well, if there had been a Super Bowl before 1967 …. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 this is an excellent bit of trolling! if not....wtf?? I love this place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Nextmanup said: I think I'd elevate Diggs to Tier 1 right now. We have had some nice receivers over the years...Frank Lewis! Jerry Butler! Andre! Lofton! Lee Evans; Stevie Johnson; Eric Moulds, Terrell Owens (almost forgot about him!) Peerless Price, Ahmad Rashad! I'm sure I'm missing a few good ones... But how many of those were basically the best WR in the game while they were a Bill? Even Andre Reed was not that. TO was way past his prime as a Bill; Most of James Lofton's career came as a Packer. I'd easily say Diggs is as good a WR as we've ever had. Certainly top 3. I agree he is top 3 talent behind Reed and Moulds. But just as you discounted Lofton, Diggs has 5 years with Minnesota and 1 and a half with Buffalo. Reed was never best WR in the game becuase of Jerry Rice. He was in the conversation for second best frequently with guys like Tim Brown, Michael Irvin, and others. Hopkins, Adams, and Hill are great but still not in the class of Rice. Diggs will need 2 or 3 more seasons to surpass Moulds and 5+ to move past Reed. 51 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: I think Dawson Knox is about 2 healthy seasons away from being on our all-time TE list, which says more about the status of the position in Bills history than it does about Knox’s brilliance so far (fine player that he is). Knox is already the best physical talent to play the position in Bills franchise history. Agree 2 more healthy seasons and he will be the best ever, even if he will live in the shadows of Kelce and Kittle. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsbackto81 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said: Well, if there had been a Super Bowl before 1967 …. Don't devalue the prestige of winning a Championship because the name or league structure or place in time. That team and those players received rings and a Championship trophy just like the teams of the current era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 32 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said: Don't devalue the prestige of winning a Championship because the name or league structure or place in time. That team and those players received rings and a Championship trophy just like the teams of the current era. Of course. Winning a championship is a great achievement in any major sports league, which is what the AFL was by the mid-60s. But if there hadn’t been a merger we’d speak a little differently about the Bills championship teams of the 90s …. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 18 hours ago, JY422 said: I think we can make the case that there are 4 current players who already belong in the top 3 at their positions on the all-time Bills team. There are a few other current players who will likely be added to this list but their sample size is too small at this point. (Either for lack of time spent with the Bills, i.e. Stef Diggs, or because they are just coming into their own, i.e. Tre Edmunds, Tyler Bass & Dawson Knox.) here is my complete list by tiers: Tier One: (Already top 3 at their respective positions) Allen, White, Poyer, Hyde perhaps Dawkins belongs in there with the above 4 but I think he still needs a breakout year or two first. Tier Two: (current trajectory has them in Tier One with another excellent season or two) Diggs, Dawkins, Bass, Edmunds, Milano, Bease Tier Three: (young bucks who have flashed enough to warrant discussion in another couple years) Gave Davis, Spencer Brown, Rousseau, Oliver, Taron Johnson. As I think about all this it pulls me in two directions: “Optimist” wow, what a roster Beane & McD have assembled. Not only players, but coaches as well. “Pessimist” wow, the Bills have not had very many packed rosters with great players in their 61 year history. Of course, if this team is the one who brings the Lombardi to Orchard Park then all bets are off and all 53 players are elevated to tier one “legendary” status!! Legendary! Interesting topic! I think your tier 1 picks are likely on the money. After that, who knows? Bass and Diggs both seem like they're on the right trajectory. Good post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 OP, did you just start watching football last season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, FireChans said: Allen is the best QB the Bills have ever had. The rest of them? nah. Even as one of Allen’s most strident apologists around here, I still have to get another few years of sustained excellence and deep playoff runs before just giving him that mantle—that disclaimer aside, he is without any doubt on that trajectory, and already eclipses the others on raw athleticism/talent ceiling…did I just hedge my bets enough? Edited November 17, 2021 by NoHuddleKelly12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 10 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Of course. Winning a championship is a great achievement in any major sports league, which is what the AFL was by the mid-60s. But if there hadn’t been a merger we’d speak a little differently about the Bills championship teams of the 90s …. I don't know about this. The Cleveland Browns were part of a weaker league in the AAFC until they merged with the NFL in 1950. The first 6 years in the NFL they went 58-13 and won 3 championships. Those 60's Championship Bills teams were absolutely loaded and I feel would have been very competitive if not better than the eventual NFL champion. Maybe not the Packers in 65, but certainly the Browns in 64. I'm not even from Buffalo, but I do enjoy the history of the game and I consider the 64 team to still be the best Bills team of all time. Pro Football references SRS formula also has the 64 team as the best Bills team of all time, nearly a full point ahead of the 90 Bills. Below is Pro Football Reference all time career leaders in AV which is a pretty accurate tool they put together in normalizing data across multiple eras. Obviously Bruce Smith is the best of all time. Jerry Hughes is the highest ranked on our current roster. White is second. The AV system is adding seasonal data together so obviously the more years you play the more it likes you. I like that concept, but i was curious on per game ratings as well. OJ has the highest AV rating per game in Bills history. For players with a minimum of 60 games played in a Bills uniform, then sorted by game average. It goes Simpson, Smith, Kelly, Sestak, Byrd, and Thurman. White shows up at 16 all time when using this method. If I'm putting my money one current Bills player making the All Time list at his position I'm putting it on White even before Josh. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-av.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 1 minute ago, KzooMike said: I don't know about this. The Cleveland Browns were part of a weaker league in the AAFC until they merged with the NFL in 1950. The first 6 years in the NFL they went 58-13 and won 3 championships. Those 60's Championship Bills teams were absolutely loaded and I feel would have been very competitive if not better than the eventual NFL champion. Maybe not the Packers in 65, but certainly the Browns in 64. I'm not even from Buffalo, but I do enjoy the history of the game and I consider the 64 team to still be the best Bills team of all time. Pro Football references SRS formula also has the 64 team as the best Bills team of all time, nearly a full point ahead of the 90 Bills. Below is Pro Football Reference all time career leaders in AV which is a pretty accurate tool they put together in normalizing data across multiple eras. Obviously Bruce Smith is the best of all time. Jerry Hughes is the highest ranked on our current roster. White is second. The AV system is adding seasonal data together so obviously the more years you play the more it likes you. I like that concept, but i was curious on per game ratings as well. OJ has the highest AV rating per game in Bills history. For players with a minimum of 60 games played in a Bills uniform, then sorted by game average. It goes Simpson, Smith, Kelly, Sestak, Byrd, and Thurman. White shows up at 16 all time when using this method. If I'm putting my money one current Bills player making the All Time list at his position I'm putting it on White even before Josh. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/career-av.htm Good points. And there’s actually 2 different points here: - was the AFL on par with the NFL c. 1965? Your Browns AAFC example is interesting. But the historical record suggests that the NFL overall had a talent edge over the AFL right up until the end of the decade. The Jets beating the Colts was kind of a fluke. The Chiefs beating the Vikes the next year wasn’t. It evened out quickly by the time of the merger. I was an old ABA basketball fan and I got into a lot of little kid arguments about the ABA vs the NBA. But even I have to admit the ABA got close to the quality of the NBA before it collapsed, but it always was just a bit behind. - are today’s players on average superior to those in the old AFL? This one is easier: yes. Period. Bigger, stronger, faster, better coached. Would certain AFL era greats still be great today? Absolutely. Would Jack Kemp be a “franchise QB” today? I doubt it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 19 hours ago, JY422 said: I think we can make the case that there are 4 current players who already belong in the top 3 at their positions on the all-time Bills team. There are a few other current players who will likely be added to this list but their sample size is too small at this point. (Either for lack of time spent with the Bills, i.e. Stef Diggs, or because they are just coming into their own, i.e. Tre Edmunds, Tyler Bass & Dawson Knox.) here is my complete list by tiers: Tier One: (Already top 3 at their respective positions) Allen, White, Poyer, Hyde perhaps Dawkins belongs in there with the above 4 but I think he still needs a breakout year or two first. Tier Two: (current trajectory has them in Tier One with another excellent season or two) Diggs, Dawkins, Bass, Edmunds, Milano, Bease Tier Three: (young bucks who have flashed enough to warrant discussion in another couple years) Gave Davis, Spencer Brown, Rousseau, Oliver, Taron Johnson. As I think about all this it pulls me in two directions: “Optimist” wow, what a roster Beane & McD have assembled. Not only players, but coaches as well. “Pessimist” wow, the Bills have not had very many packed rosters with great players in their 61 year history. Of course, if this team is the one who brings the Lombardi to Orchard Park then all bets are off and all 53 players are elevated to tier one “legendary” status!! Legendary! What is your opinion of Robert James? https://www.buffalobills.com/news/all-time-team-cb-preview-431377 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 Butch Byrd (1964-70) One of the first physical cornerbacks in pro football, Byrd was an expert at re-routing receivers. A five-time AFL All-Star, Byrd still holds the team's all-time record for interceptions in a career with 40, compiling that total in just seven seasons. Byrd was also a dangerous returner as evidenced by his 74-yard punt return for a touchdown in the 1965 AFL Championship game. "He was one of the first big cornerbacks," said former teammate Harry Jacobs. "He was probably the guy that brought every other DB up on top of everyone to knock receivers around a little bit." Mario Clark (1976-1983) A former first-round pick, Clark was named to the NFL's All-Rookie team in 1976 as he stepped into the starting lineup right away for the Bills. His second season with Buffalo would be one of Clark's best as he posted a career-high seven interceptions and a fumble recovery. Clark had 25 interceptions in his eight seasons with Buffalo. "He was always scanning the field," said former Bills receiver and teammate Jerry Butler. "He'd pretend he was looking at you, but the whole time he was looking at the backfield. It was amazing how he was able to cover you and see the field at the same time. You couldn't get him to bite or trick him on a lot of things." Nate Clements (2001-2006) Another former first-round draft choice, Clements was an instant impact starter for the Bills and became the first player in team history to lead the team in interceptions for four consecutive seasons. A Pro Bowl selection in 2004, Clements also holds the team record for most returns for touchdowns with five by interception and two on punt return. He's best remembered for his three interception game in 2002, including one that he took back 29 yards for a touchdown to break a 10-10 tie in a 23-10 victory over Miami (Oct. 20). Booker Edgerson (1962-1969) A college sprinter and long jumper, Booker Edgerson applied those skills well when it came to covering some of the AFL's most prolific wide receivers. Edgerson was often given the assignment of covering the opponent's best receiver. Stepping in as a rookie starter, Edgerson had two interceptions in his very first game against Hall of Fame quarterback George Blanda and made the AFL All-Rookie team. An AFL All-Star in 1965, Edgerson had 23 interceptions in his career, two of which he returned for touchdowns. "Booker was always up there and strong on the press," said former teammate Harry Jacobs. "Booker wasn't big, but he had the speed that allowed him to stay with his guy all the way down the field." Robert James (1969-1974) A former defensive end at tiny Fisk College, Robert James made a seamless transition to cornerback in the pros. Using his rare physical strength to manhandle wideouts James was selected to three Pro Bowls in a career cut short by injury. He also earned back-to-back first team All-Pro honors in 1973 and 1974. He's also a member of the Bills Wall of Fame. "Lou Saban said he may have been the best football player he ever coached and he only played six years," said former teammate Joe DeLamielleure. "They actually probably changed the (defensive contact) rules because of him. He'd get so close to guys and play man to man on everybody. He had the strength of a defensive lineman and the speed of a corner." Nate Odomes (1987-1993) Odomes was one of Buffalo's more productive cornerbacks, and had some of his best seasons during the Bills' early 90's Super Bowl runs. The former second-round pick earned a pair of Pro Bowl selections in 1992 and 1993 and led the league in interceptions with nine in his last season with Buffalo. He's best remembered for his overtime interception in the 'Comeback Game' against Houston in the 1992 AFC Wild Card contest that led to Steve Christie's game-winning field goal (41-38). Charlie Romes (1977-1986) This former 12th-round pick carved out a pretty good career for himself playing 10 seasons for the Bills and finishing fourth on the team's all-time list in interceptions with 28. Romes posted a career-high seven interceptions in 1985, and had 16 over his last three seasons in Buffalo. "I thought he was a great man-to-man press coverage type corner," said former teammate Jerry Butler. "I used to try little moves and techniques against him (in practice) and by doing that we were both able to perfect our games more and step it up." Antoine Winfield (1999-2003) Pound for pound Winfield was one of the most physical cornerbacks in team history. Despite standing just 5'8" Winfield was one of the surest tacklers on the edge for Buffalo. Winfield became the first cornerback in team history to lead the team in tackles with 106 in 2001. In 2003 he'd set a career high in tackles with 124, good for third on the team while also leading the squad in tackles for loss that year. He had six interceptions in his four seasons with the Bills. This article has been reproduced in a new format and may be missing content or contain faulty links. Please use the Contact Us link in our site footer to report an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 4 hours ago, MJS said: You forgot Dubenion for receivers, but spot on with everything else. I went back and forth on Duby. Another guy that deserved mention was Bobby Chandler. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 46 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Good points. And there’s actually 2 different points here: - was the AFL on par with the NFL c. 1965? Your Browns AAFC example is interesting. But the historical record suggests that the NFL overall had a talent edge over the AFL right up until the end of the decade. The Jets beating the Colts was kind of a fluke. The Chiefs beating the Vikes the next year wasn’t. It evened out quickly by the time of the merger. I was an old ABA basketball fan and I got into a lot of little kid arguments about the ABA vs the NBA. But even I have to admit the ABA got close to the quality of the NBA before it collapsed, but it always was just a bit behind. - are today’s players on average superior to those in the old AFL? This one is easier: yes. Period. Bigger, stronger, faster, better coached. Would certain AFL era greats still be great today? Absolutely. Would Jack Kemp be a “franchise QB” today? I doubt it. Great post, this is one of those eternal debates but clearly you have really good perspective on it. I 100% agree with the Jets/Colts and Chiefs/Vikes. I guess we will really never know. Really different styles in the AFL as well, in my opinion more forward thinking than the NFL at that time, perhaps as result of less risk being felt to go outside the grain. Also some fantastic uniforms. Buffalo's were obviously great, Chargers, several others. The 60's was a really interesting era in Pro Football, 50's as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 I’m taking Taking Bass over any bills kicker ever. Christie can back him up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookylookyherecomescookie Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 7 hours ago, KzooMike said: I think the OP missed on the way this should have been presented (I'm not dogging you OP it is a good question just confusing). Some are looking at it more like a single season, others are looking at it as far as a career and body of work, then others looking at it like pure talent. As an example, I would I take 2020 Diggs against any season James Lofton had AS A BILL, but not any in his career nor for his career and body of work. I also can't discount Andre Reed, Eric Mould's, or Elbert Dubenion career body work as a Bill compared to Diggs. I also think you have to look at performance relative to pears, well, if that's how you choose to look at it. Obviously any modern athlete is superior, is that how we want to look at this? I really don't know if that's a fair look. That said if this is a Bills list, I feel the standard should be both career and body of work as a Bill. At which point, nobody on our roster could be eligible yet. Some are inching closer. So the question would become who likely can it be? Which really becomes interesting because it's impacted by how good we have been at some positions historically as well as your future outlook of our roster. We are likely furthest away at RB and probably DE, just because Bruce was an all timer. He goes on every list, not just Bills lists. Then we have nobody close to OJ or Thurman. OJ, then Thurman, then Cookie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan692 Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 23 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: It's not that the board that's not sure about Edmunds. It's that he's got a small group of haters that want a Dick Butkus in the middle. They don't get it and won't be convinced. Having said that, Edmunds would be running up against Sam Cowart, Takeo, Shane Conlan and a bunch others before you even consider the real old-timers like Stratton. Way too early to have this conversation for him and for nearly everyone in OP's post, though Poyer and Hyde might be a pretty reasonable thought and Allen certainly looks like in a couple of years he'll be in there as well. Other than Hughes, nobody's been here more than four and a half years and the first year or two didn't look good. Too early. Uh sorry guy but Allen is definitely already at the top #1 best ever. If he is taking a second seat to anyone its Jim Kelly and thats it. If he gets the chip then he will officially dethrone kelly 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelius Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) Piling on and saying the original post is sorely missing Mr. Jerry Hughes Jr. The actual connective tissue from the drought to the playoffs, and he's still making plays. Might even get a ring. First ballot all Bills everything. Edited November 18, 2021 by Nelius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) To build this All-Time team, I used AV (Approximate Value) according to pro football reference. Instead of using the career total, I only included players with at least 50 games in a Bills uniform then I ranked them by average value per game (only in a Bills uniform). Doing it this way wasn’t perfect, but I felt it helped combine a few elements of what we are trying answer. With several positions having difficult separation, I just grouped the units together as the older player data is too cloudy. Like DB instead of CB or S / OL instead of OT or OG. These aren’t my opinions, it’s what the list produced. I agree with a lot of it but would be curious what others think. Interestingly, to the OP’s initial post, we have two players who already qualify. One more that is a shoe in if he hits 50 games. Then I would think you have to say Bass overtakes Christie even though I have no kicking roles listed. So 4 looks likely to occur according to this method. Allen would make 5, but he will need some serious hardware before he is a risk to overtake Kelly. Enjoy QB: Jim Kelly, Josh Allen Allen just qualified at 50 games, but considerably behind Kelly RB: OJ Simpson, Thurman Thomas, Joe Cribbs *Cookie Gilchrist only played in 42 games but would have been placed ahead of Thurman and behind OJ if he met the 50-game threshold. WR: Andre Reed, Eric Moulids, James Lofton, Elbert Dubenion, Lee Evans *Stephen Diggs would be rated just ahead of Reed if he maintains his current AV game score and passes the 50-game threshold TE: Ernie Warlick *Knox, at this time, wouldn’t even register in the top 7-8 if he was over 50 games, but it’s hard to argue that he doesn’t have a chance to be #1 if he stays here. I would have went with 2 TE’s we just had nothing viable. OL: Kent Hull, Richie Incognito, Ruben Brown, Joe Delamielleure, Billy Shaw *Will Wolford would be next; Dion Dawkins is not in the top 30 DL: Bruce Smith, Tom Sestak, Mario Williams, Ron McDole, Ted Washington *Jerry Hughes is behind several players and will never make the list LB: Shane Conlan, Cornelius Bennett, Mike Stratton, Tremaine Edmunds *Takeo Spike would be #1 if he hit the 50 game threshold, Sam Cowart would be just behind Edmunds if 50 game threshold was met DB: Butch Byrd, Robert James, George Saimes, Tre White, Nate Odomes *Nate Clements and Terrance McGee are right behind Odomes, Henry Jones and Micah Hyde follow shortly after. Hyde has a big hill to climb to get into the top 5 Top 10 1. OJ Simpson RB 2. Bruce Smith DL 3. Jim Kelly QB 4. Tom Sestak DL 5. Butch Byrd DB 6. Thurman Thomas RB 7. Joe Cribbs RB 8. Mario Williams DL 9. Shane Conlan LB 10. Cornelius Bennett #11 Would have been Josh Allen Edited November 18, 2021 by KzooMike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, KzooMike said: To build this All-Time team, I used AV (Approximate Value) according to pro football reference. Instead of using the career total, I only included players with at least 50 games in a Bills uniform then I ranked them by average value per game (only in a Bills uniform). Doing it this way wasn’t perfect, but I felt it helped combine a few elements of what we are trying answer. With several positions having difficult separation, I just grouped the units together as the older player data is too cloudy. Like DB instead of CB or S / OL instead of OT or OG. These aren’t my opinions, it’s what the list produced. I agree with a lot of it but would be curious what others think. Interestingly, to the OP’s initial post, we have two players who already qualify. One more that is a shoe in if he hits 50 games. Then I would think you have to say Bass overtakes Christie even though I have no kicking roles listed. So 4 looks likely to occur according to this method. Allen would make 5, but he will need some serious hardware before he is a risk to overtake Kelly. Enjoy QB: Jim Kelly, Josh Allen Allen just qualified at 50 games, but considerably behind Kelly RB: OJ Simpson, Thurman Thomas, Joe Cribbs *Cookie Gilchrist only played in 42 games but would have been placed ahead of Thurman and behind OJ if he met the 50-game threshold. WR: Andre Reed, Eric Moulids, James Lofton, Elbert Dubenion, Lee Evans *Stephen Diggs would be rated just ahead of Reed if he maintains his current AV game score and passes the 50-game threshold TE: Ernie Warlick *Knox, at this time, wouldn’t even register in the top 7-8 if he was over 50 games, but it’s hard to argue that he doesn’t have a chance to be #1 if he stays here. I would have went with 2 TE’s we just had nothing viable. OL: Kent Hull, Richie Incognito, Ruben Brown, Joe Delamielleure, Billy Shaw *Will Wolford would be next; Dion Dawkins is not in the top 30 DL: Bruce Smith, Tom Sestak, Mario Williams, Ron McDole, Ted Washington *Jerry Hughes is behind several players and will never make the list LB: Shane Conlan, Cornelius Bennett, Mike Stratton, Tremaine Edmunds *Takeo Spike would be #1 if he hit the 50 game threshold, Sam Cowart would be just behind Edmunds if 50 game threshold was met DB: Butch Byrd, Robert James, George Saimes, Tre White, Nate Odomes *Nate Clements and Terrance McGee are right behind Odomes, Henry Jones and Micah Hyde follow shortly after. Hyde has a big hill to climb to get into the top 5 Top 10 1. OJ Simpson RB 2. Bruce Smith DL 3. Jim Kelly QB 4. Tom Sestak DL 5. Butch Byrd DB 6. Thurman Thomas RB 7. Joe Cribbs RB 8. Mario Williams DL 9. Shane Conlan LB 10. Cornelius Bennett #11 Would have been Josh Allen Nice work & list, but I’m not buying Shane Conlan at #9, vastly overrated. If I were to make my all-time Bills roster, he’d be well on the outside looking in. Edited November 18, 2021 by Rico 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikie2times Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, Rico said: Nice work & list, but I’m not buying Shane Conlan at #9, vastly overrated. Me neither, a few I strongly disagree with, but I like the mix of eras and lack of any bias. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, KzooMike said: Me neither, a few I strongly disagree with, but I like the mix of eras and lack of any bias. I do like Nate Clements getting honorable mention, with Lil Antoine not in the conversation…. and Dion Dawkins not in the top 30 sounds right to me. Edited November 18, 2021 by Rico 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) Just shift the focus of the OP post. Instead of 4 guys competing for the All-Time Bill’s team - which is just a bit early on any of these players. Drop it down a few notches. Those 4 players are all striving toward Wall of Fame status. Something that is given for both team play and individual play - along with being fan favorites. Most WOF’ers are all time greats, but you have guys like Phil Hansen, Joe Ferguson, and maybe Fred Smerlas up there that are good players during their time, but none are all time greats for long periods with the Bills. Some had personality, some had longevity, and some were just the best player during a bad period of time. I think with a few more good years several of these guys could be eventual WOF guys - even without being all time greats and some like Allen, White, and Bass might make cases as All Time Bills team stars. Edited November 18, 2021 by Rochesterfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) So I can't go deep into the annuls like some of the old guys.... you know, like @Gugny, but if I was putting together my all Bills team of my fandom (since 2002) then starters from the current team I have: Offense - Josh Allen (QB) and Stefon Diggs (WR) Defense - Hyde (FS), Poyer (SS), White (CB) and Taron Johnson (NCB) I'm close on Tyler Bass, maybe by the end of the year I'll be willing to go there. I'd actually have Dan Carpenter as my kicker, because while his last season here when he fell out with Rex and his leg seemed to go was a bit of a mess he had three years over 85% and made some clutch kicks for us on a team that got into scoring position much less frequently than the current team. I think Bass is very much on his way to that spot in my team but for now I'd just edge to Dan for that reason. The other one I'm close on strangely enough is Dawson Knox. That says more about the Bills history of Tight End play than it does about him, but he is the first Bills tight end I have ever thought of as a weapon. At the moment Scott Chandler has that spot in my team. That says it all. Offense QB - Josh Allen RB - Fred Jackson WR - Eric Moulds WR - Stefon Diggs WR - Stevie Johnson TE - Scott Chandler LT - Cordy Glenn LG - Andy Levitre C - Eric Wood RG - Richie Incognito RT - Jason Peters (I'm cheating a bit on the line because Glenn and Peters are the best two tackles and really they are both LTs and Levitre and Richie are the best two guards and really were both LGs. But In his first spell Richie played some RG for us and in his first season in the starting lineup Peters played RT, so it allows me to get them both in. Constructing a good oline is worryingly difficult). Defense DE Mario Williams DT Kyle Williams DT Marcel Dareus DE Aaron Schobel MLB London Fletcher WLB Takeo Spikes NCB Taron Johnson CB Tre White CB Stephon Gilmore FS Micah Hyde SS Jordan Poyer Special Teams K - Dan Carpenter P - Brian Moorman Edited November 18, 2021 by GunnerBill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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