Texans' Deshaun Watson accused of indecent conduct in civil lawsuit; QB denies wrongdoing

[mannc]

5 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

It’s called a character witness. So far these are nothing more than allegations, anyway. Unless of course you already have your mind made up. 

No, that’s not what a character witness is.  A character witness is someone who would testify that they’ve known the accused for some time and that he’s a great guy and would never do what he’s accused of.  All these women could say is that they massaged Watson and he didn’t try to molest them.

 
The downside of employing a character witness is that it opens the door to the other side introducing witnesses who will testify as to the accused’s bad character.  That’s why it’s not often done...

 

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Legally of course this is correct. But in civil proceedings the claimant only needs to prove on the balance of priorities - ie. it is more probable that he did it than not. I think they have a decent chance of proving that. "Beyond reasonable doubt" ie. the criminal standard - trickier. 

And in the court of public opinion, it’s an entirely different standard altogether...

[machine gun kelly]

So from a football perspective, this is becoming more convincing he’s not getting traded anytime soon. 

[Dafan]

8 hours ago, mannc said:

No, that’s not what a character witness is.  A character witness is someone who would testify that they’ve known the accused for some time and that he’s a great guy and would never do what he’s accused of.  All these women could say is that they massaged Watson and he didn’t try to molest them.

 
The downside of employing a character witness is that it opens the door to the other side introducing witnesses who will testify as to the accused’s bad character.  That’s why it’s not often done...

 

And in the court of public opinion, it’s an entirely different standard altogether...

Guess Ted Bundy should have found some girls to say he didn't kill them.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 3/31/2021 at 12:52 PM, DaggersEOD said:

Tough to prove a negative, but showing that Watson has utilized the services of ANOTHER 20 therapists doesn’t make his case sound better IMO. 

Such a strange defense strategy. 
Yeah those women said I did something to them, but these over here said I didn’t with them, therefore those others must be lying?

 

I'm not sure the additional 20 therapists makes his case worse, but if I were on the jury it wouldn't change my viewpoint about whether the allegations against Watson are "more likely than not" true.  I would think "perhaps he went to these therapists for "sports massage" and the others for "relaxation massage" and the latter is when this behavior occurred".  I understand is not uncommon among abusive or predatory people to "test" potential victims for certain reactions and only act if the "test reaction" is "favorable" to what they want, so I would think also "maybe he "tested" each therapist in some way and got a reaction from these therapists that led him to behave properly. 

 

I'm trying not to judge Watson here, but my opinion aligns with your view that it's strange, as a defense strategy.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 hours ago, bobobonators said:

It’s called a character witness. So far these are nothing more than allegations, anyway. Unless of course you already have your mind made up. 
He doesnt need to prove anything. 

 

So one difference between a criminal case and civil proceedings, that I learned when I was impaneled as a potential juror for the latter - you're quite correct that in a British or American criminal court, the defendant doesn't need to "prove" anything, it is "up to" the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a "reasonable doubt".

 

But in a civil proceeding, the jury simply needs to believe it's "more likely than not" to have happened as alleged.

[Mr. K]

23 hours ago, NobesBLO13 said:

“The Rub”

 Reports were they wanted to use "The Jerk" but Steve Martin already did that. 

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So one difference between a criminal case and civil proceedings, that I learned when I was impaneled as a potential juror for the latter - you're quite correct that in a British or American criminal court, the defendant doesn't need to "prove" anything, it is "up to" the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a "reasonable doubt".

 

But in a civil proceeding, the jury simply needs to believe it's "more likely than not" to have happened as alleged.

 

This is true but the burden to meet that standard remains on the plaintiff - they have to make the case for their assertions. The standard is as you say "the balance of probabilities" but the defendant still doesn't have to "prove" anything. I do think if they conjoin these cases against Watson the claimants have a good chance of meeting the standard. I think the slightly bonkers document the defense released the other day with statements from other women who have massaged Deshaun to say he behaved perfectly properly with them was designed to counter the 'pattern' narrative. I think it was miscalculated and doesn't actually help their case but the strongest suit of the plaintiffs at the moment is the clear demonstration of a pattern of behaviour, so they were trying to say "well why does this pattern only seem to occur in some circumstances and not others?" 

 

I have to say based on the public war of words I don't think much of either of these lawyers!

[papazoid]

O.J. could have lined up 20 people who said he never tried to kill them.....

 

regarding watson, these 20 woman charachter witnesses prove nothing regarding the actual accusers

 

the red flag to me is why so many massage therapists.....a flimsy analogy is like constantly getting your haircut by someone new for first time....makes no sense.

 

my opinion....he was grooming and doctor shopping for his happy ending.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, papazoid said:

O.J. could have lined up 20 people who said he never tried to kill them.....

 

regarding watson, these 20 woman charachter witnesses prove nothing regarding the actual accusers

 

the red flag to me is why so many massage therapists.....a flimsy analogy is like constantly getting your haircut by someone new for first time....makes no sense.

 

my opinion....he was grooming and doctor shopping for his happy ending.

 

I don't think they are intended as "character witnesses" so much as they are intended to directly counteract the pattern narrative which is without question the strongest argument the plaintiffs have. I don't think it was a very effective technique but I think it was intended to cast doubt on the consistency of the pattern. 

 

And just to repeat Watson doesn't have to prove anything. The burden is on the plaintiffs. I believe that as a class action they have a strong enough case on paper to reach the civil standard. But they will have to able to make that case effectively in court (if it gets that far of course). 

[whatdrought]

Imagine if a team had traded 3 firsts+ for him before all this came out! 

[Reed83HOF]

21 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Imagine if a team had traded 3 firsts+ for him before all this came out! 

Yeah, the Texans would be ecstatic...they sadly waited too long

[Captain Hindsight]

56 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Imagine if a team had traded 3 firsts+ for him before all this came out! 

This all happened before the start of the league year. I bet that team would have backed out once these came to light 

[without a drought]

On 3/24/2021 at 2:32 PM, HOUSE said:

Bottom line is no team is dropping two #1s to get this guy 

Still not getting his happy ending.

 

The Texans aren't either.

[BarleyNY]

19 hours ago, mannc said:

 

And in the court of public opinion, it’s an entirely different standard altogether...

And in Goodell’s office there’s yet a different “standard” which could honestly be just about anything depending on how the wind is blowing that day. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

Imagine if a team had traded 3 firsts+ for him before all this came out! 

 

Only 3??  I read right here it would take at least 4 or 5...

3 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

And in Goodell’s office there’s yet a different “standard” which could honestly be just about anything depending on how the wind is blowing that day. 

 

This isn't true.  This would easily fall under the CBA bargained rule of "conduct detrimental".  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

This is true but the burden to meet that standard remains on the plaintiff - they have to make the case for their assertions. The standard is as you say "the balance of probabilities" but the defendant still doesn't have to "prove" anything. I do think if they conjoin these cases against Watson the claimants have a good chance of meeting the standard. I think the slightly bonkers document the defense released the other day with statements from other women who have massaged Deshaun to say he behaved perfectly properly with them was designed to counter the 'pattern' narrative. I think it was miscalculated and doesn't actually help their case but the strongest suit of the plaintiffs at the moment is the clear demonstration of a pattern of behaviour, so they were trying to say "well why does this pattern only seem to occur in some circumstances and not others?" 

 

I have to say based on the public war of words I don't think much of either of these lawyers!

 

Agree about the lawyers.

 

Yeah, I think that whole "here are 20 people who had no problems with him" strategy is a mistake, from the courtroom perspective.  I think that most adults have an experience of someone or some company that evidently has perfectly satisfactory interactions with other people, really doing us wrong.  The remodeling company that our neighbors used and recommended that screwed us.  The guy who everyone we know says is such a nice guy, but who took advantage of us.  The ex-spouse who broke our heart and treated us like dirt, but who apparently has a good relationship with their next partner.   We all learn to say "OK, sucks to be me on this one" but we (most adults) don't question or dismiss our own bad experiences because someone else had a good experience.

 

Psychologists have some studies of this and one of the more telling popular accounts is in "Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker.  De Becker explains how criminals and abusers actually have a conscious or subconscious pattern of "testing" potential victims for cues that they can be maneuvered into a vulnerable position and taken advantage of.    It can be fairly subtle stuff like reaction to an offer of help, or excessive social physical contact like draping an arm over the shoulder.   

If Watson were seeking women who would give him a particular reaction, then he might "test" with one cue and depending on the reaction to that, he would either escalate or desist. 
 

 

 

4 hours ago, papazoid said:

my opinion....he was grooming and doctor shopping for his happy ending.

 

That is the way I see it. 

 

Assuming the allegations have merit, not just a "happy ending" but a particular reaction (fear, discomfort, shock, whatever) that he got off on. 

 

Because, if Watson just wanted a happy ending, why not just use a discrete professional escort who is in the business of providing sexual services?

[TBBills Fan]

4 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

Yeah, the Texans would be ecstatic...they sadly waited too long

 

 

what if the Texans helped make sure that this got out?

[MJS]

Just the fact that he has been to so many massage therapists is creepy. What's that, like at least 40? That's not normal. Usually you find one or two you like and schedule with them. Why on earth would you need to go to so many unless it was for some fetish?

[aristocrat]

3 minutes ago, MJS said:

Just the fact that he has been to so many massage therapists is creepy. What's that, like at least 40? That's not normal. Usually you find one or two you like and schedule with them. Why on earth would you need to go to so many unless it was for some fetish?

One or two that know all your issues and work different areas daily. This is not that 

[BuffaloRebound]

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

Just the fact that he has been to so many massage therapists is creepy. What's that, like at least 40? That's not normal. Usually you find one or two you like and schedule with them. Why on earth would you need to go to so many unless it was for some fetish?

The biggest red flag is that Sports Illustrated randomly reached out to a Houston-based massage therapist and she had a similar existence with Watson.  That’s crazy.  

[Chandler#81]

22 hours ago, bobobonators said:

It’s called a character witness. So far these are nothing more than allegations, anyway. Unless of course you already have your mind made up. 
 

He doesnt need to prove anything. 

Going through life blind must be blissful.

 

I wouldn’t know, though..🤷‍♂️

[Captain Hindsight]

37 minutes ago, TBBills Fan said:

 

 

what if the Texans helped make sure that this got out?

This situation is no way benefits the Texans. Not even a little bit

[TBBills Fan]

1 minute ago, Captain Hindsight said:

This situation is no way benefits the Texans. Not even a little bit

 

 

you are assuming the Texans are a smart well run organization that doesnt operate out of spite.

 

A dumb org may say, hey this makes him untradeable and he comes back, then it gets swept under the rug.....

 

not saying its what happened, but that is actually quite possible with rich mother ***** with a lot of money on the line

[Hapless Bills Fan]

57 minutes ago, MJS said:

Just the fact that he has been to so many massage therapists is creepy. What's that, like at least 40? That's not normal. Usually you find one or two you like and schedule with them. Why on earth would you need to go to so many unless it was for some fetish?

 

 I know, right?  I can see maybe half a dozen? especially for a pro athlete, if they specialize in different techniques or some work different muscle groups better than others, or to have a "backup plan" if he needs a massage like NOW and the first preference is booked up while the second one has a sick kid. 

 

I've experienced what a great massage can do for some screamingly painful overworked muscle groups and if I were a wealthy pro athlete, I wouldn't want to have to delay that therapy when I need it.  I've also had massages that didn't measure up to that standard.

 

20 different massage therapists?  40 different massage therapists?  For a guy who can get recommendations from teammates and trainers?

 

 

[wppete]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 I know, right?  I can see maybe half a dozen? especially for a pro athlete, if they specialize in different techniques or some work different muscle groups better than others, or to have a "backup plan" if he needs a massage like NOW and the first preference is booked up while the second one has a sick kid. 

 

But 20?  40?  Really?

 

 

Completely agree this ☝️..... Anyone with a logical mind and not diluted by emotion understands what Deshaun was up to. To this point we have at least 24 women with detailed accounts of his predatory behavior. Anyone that says otherwise in the Media or on here is completely blind by their biases and looks like are defending a predator. Pretty simple. 
 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, Dafan said:

Guess Ted Bundy should have found some girls to say he didn't kill them.

 

I wanted to react to this but I wasn't quite sure how.  "Like" or "Thanks" didn't seem right...but I agree with the general premise so "Sad" or "Shocked" doesn't seem right.

 

To step away from the murder analogy, next time I get a speeding ticket if I decide to take it to court, I'm sure the judge will be incredibly impressed to hear about all the routes, days, and years I've driven the same car and not gotten a speeding ticket.  That'll really persuade him I wasn't speeding on the date and time the ticket was issued.

 

Oh.  Maybe not.....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, wppete said:

Completely agree this ☝️..... Anyone with a logical mind and not diluted by emotion understands what Deshaun was up to. To this point we have at least 24 women with detailed accounts of his predatory behavior. Anyone that says otherwise in the Media or on here is completely blind by their biases and looks like are defending a predator. Pretty simple.

 

Taking the allegations on face value, certainly.  And I don't believe a "conspiracy" of this size could credibly be pulled off without someone blowing it open. 

I still believe that everyone deserves his day in court and his right to face accusers, hear the details, and present exculpatory evidence.  There have been some modern equivalents of the famous "Salem Witch Trials" where people's memories and thus testimonies were manipulated in various ways.  So I won't claim that people who hold back and reserve judgement are "blind" or lack "logical minds", either, and if that looks like "defending a predator", I can live with that.

[BarleyNY]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

This isn't true.  This would easily fall under the CBA bargained rule of "conduct detrimental".  

I think you misunderstood me.  My comment alluded to Goodell’s power in such matters and his wide ranging penalties.  I’m not sure of any changes in the most recent CBA, but the previous one gave him near absolute authority in cases like this.  Also I’ve found little rhyme or reason to his penalties except that he always seems to have an eye toward the bottom dollar and making sure his authority is not challenged.

 

As for this case I meant that I have no idea of what Goodell will do.  Is there cause for a penalty from the league?  I’d sure think so.  Will anything actually happen?  No idea.

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

This isn't true.  This would easily fall under the CBA bargained rule of "conduct detrimental".  

I think you misunderstood me.  My comment alluded to Goodell’s power in such matters and his wide ranging penalties.  I’m not sure of any changes in the most recent CBA, but the previous one gave him near absolute authority in cases like this.  Also I’ve found little rhyme or reason to his penalties except that he always seems to have an eye toward the bottom dollar and making sure his authority is not challenged.

 

As for this case I meant that I have no idea of what Goodell will do.  Is there cause for a penalty from the league?  I’d sure think so.  Will anything actually happen?  No idea.

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by BarleyNY

[YoloinOhio]

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

I think you misunderstood me.  My comment alluded to Goodell’s power in such matters and his wide ranging penalties.  I’m not sure of any changes in the most recent CBA, but the previous one gave him near absolute authority in cases like this.  Also I’ve found little rhyme or reason to his penalties except that he always seems to have an eye toward the bottom dollar and making sure his authority is not challenged.

 

As for this case I meant that I have no idea of what Goodell will do.  Is there cause for a penalty from the league?  I’d sure think so.  Will anything actually happen?  No idea.

I think you misunderstood me.  My comment alluded to Goodell’s power in such matters and his wide ranging penalties.  I’m not sure of any changes in the most recent CBA, but the previous one gave him near absolute authority in cases like this.  Also I’ve found little rhyme or reason to his penalties except that he always seems to have an eye toward the bottom dollar and making sure his authority is not challenged.

 

As for this case I meant that I have no idea of what Goodell will do.  Is there cause for a penalty from the league?  I’d sure think so.  Will anything actually happen?  No idea.

 

For a long time,  there has been a long list of specific penalties and corresponding fines suspensions.  The new CBA now has the initial penalty decided by a neutral arbitrator.  Goodell only handles appeals.

 

He’s not spinning the penalty wheel.  

[machine gun kelly]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Agree about the lawyers.

 

Yeah, I think that whole "here are 20 people who had no problems with him" strategy is a mistake, from the courtroom perspective.  I think that most adults have an experience of someone or some company that evidently has perfectly satisfactory interactions with other people, really doing us wrong.  The remodeling company that our neighbors used and recommended that screwed us.  The guy who everyone we know says is such a nice guy, but who took advantage of us.  The ex-spouse who broke our heart and treated us like dirt, but who apparently has a good relationship with their next partner.   We all learn to say "OK, sucks to be me on this one" but we (most adults) don't question or dismiss our own bad experiences because someone else had a good experience.

 

Psychologists have some studies of this and one of the more telling popular accounts is in "Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker.  De Becker explains how criminals and abusers actually have a conscious or subconscious pattern of "testing" potential victims for cues that they can be maneuvered into a vulnerable position and taken advantage of.    It can be fairly subtle stuff like reaction to an offer of help, or excessive social physical contact like draping an arm over the shoulder.   

If Watson were seeking women who would give him a particular reaction, then he might "test" with one cue and depending on the reaction to that, he would either escalate or desist. 
 

 

 

 

That is the way I see it. 

 

Assuming the allegations have merit, not just a "happy ending" but a particular reaction (fear, discomfort, shock, whatever) that he got off on. 

 

Because, if Watson just wanted a happy ending, why not just use a discrete professional escort who is in the business of providing sexual services?

Hap, you’re right on predators.  I won’t go far enough to say he was one, but in treating court ordered persons, I observed and saw predators try and manipulate me as a therapist.  That type of person is smart and calculating.  They learn over time how to look for cues to see if they can manipulate.  It’s one of the reasons I hated dealing with court ordered persons.  They weren’t there for the right reasons.

 

I don’t know what’s going on here, but something troubling to me is why so many massage therapists?  That makes zero sense.  I’ve been friends with a couple of professional athletes, and was 100 years ago a top amateur athlete (just a middle aged guy now), and having that many massage therapists is just odd.  Once they find the right person, they don’t deviate to others.  Someone referenced a Barber/hair stylist, and was spot on.  I don’t know about you guys, but once I found a stylist I liked who I didn’t have to say anything, I stuck with her for 15 years.  I finally once moved went to a barber.  The same guy cuts my hair every two weeks and I refuse to go to anyone else.  If we add the twenty in his favor to the 20 or so complaining, doesn’t that create a raised eyebrow?

 

I refuse to make a judgment as none of us know anything other than what is being released, but the more I hear, the more I’m confused and skeptical of both sides.

[QCity]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

"We welcome this long overdue development"  I love how these lawyers try to spin everything as a positive for their side. Yes! We were praying for a criminal investigation!

[YoloinOhio]

 

[machine gun kelly]

The fact that a criminal investigation is not good for him.  The only thing I care about is if he did something wrong to any woman, he needs to be punished.  I don’t care if he was the second coming of Bart Starr.  If he didn’t, then I hope these women are punished as well.  Either way, now that the law is involved, their burden is higher than a civil suit so the truth will eventually come out (I hope).

[wppete]

12 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Multiple criminal investigations in different jurisdictions and 22 civil cases up to 24 accusers....So far that we know of!!!  This guy is done. No way we see him on a football field again. 👮‍♂️

[Warcodered]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 I know, right?  I can see maybe half a dozen? especially for a pro athlete, if they specialize in different techniques or some work different muscle groups better than others, or to have a "backup plan" if he needs a massage like NOW and the first preference is booked up while the second one has a sick kid. 

 

I've experienced what a great massage can do for some screamingly painful overworked muscle groups and if I were a wealthy pro athlete, I wouldn't want to have to delay that therapy when I need it.  I've also had massages that didn't measure up to that standard.

 

20 different massage therapists?  40 different massage therapists?  For a guy who can get recommendations from teammates and trainers?

 

 

I saw a reply in a tweet that noted that all of these massage therapists are women which I mean maybe that doesn't mean anything but it certainly doesn't help.

3 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

I mean still it's not like he can be sued without them identifying themselves at some point, this feels like a weird thing for them to keep pointing out.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

26 minutes ago, wppete said:

Multiple criminal investigations in different jurisdictions and 22 civil cases up to 24 accusers....So far that we know of!!!  This guy is done. No way we see him on a football field again. 👮‍♂️

 

I said that about Michael Vick.  And yet....

[SinceThe70s]

23 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

The fact that a criminal investigation is not good for him.  The only thing I care about is if he did something wrong to any woman, he needs to be punished.  I don’t care if he was the second coming of Bart Starr.  If he didn’t, then I hope these women are punished as well.  Either way, now that the law is involved, their burden is higher than a civil suit so the truth will eventually come out (I hope).

 

I wonder whether there's cross-over between the criminal case and one or more of the civil cases. If there is, should we expect a barrage of criminal cases?

 

[machine gun kelly]

It’s possible 70’s.