Vernon Butler takes pay cut

[YattaOkasan]

Just now, Doc said:

 

It's not a release.  It's a player deciding to hang-it-up.  A team is allowed to demand repayment of the unamortized signing bonus, but usually they don't, as a gift for services rendered.  Since Star was barely with the Bills and signed a new deal before opting-out, they'll definitely go after his.  Plus there is the $4.5M salary saved and any other likely to be earned incentives, roster and game bonuses, etc.

Do you have links cause I'm seeing it (link above) as a release?

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

It was a 6 million hit before, right? Gotta hope it’s at least in the 2-3 range now. Don’t love keeping him at Jefferson’s expense. 

I agree. This is very odd. He was less productive and impactful than Addison or Jefferson which isn't saying much. Maybe his role now will be a backup 1T to Star? Still an odd move unless the paycut is substantial?

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree. This is very odd. He was less productive and impactful than Addison or Jefferson which isn't saying much. Maybe his role now will be a backup 1T to Star? Still an odd move unless the paycut is substantial?

Would not suprise me if he was the backup 3 tech rather then the 1

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Do you have links cause I'm seeing it (link above) as a release?

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/andrew-luck-colts-reach-settlement-after-shocking-retirement-might-have-lost-out-on-500-million/

 

It talks about Luck possibly needing to pay back his unamortized signing bonus, but he and the Colts agreed on a settlement.

[YattaOkasan]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/andrew-luck-colts-reach-settlement-after-shocking-retirement-might-have-lost-out-on-500-million/

 

It talks about Luck possibly needing to pay back his unamortized signing bonus, but he and the Colts agreed on a settlement.

Thanks!  I wanna find the video(s) from @Cover 1 where they were saying different.  Maybe its the new CBA?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree. This is very odd. He was less productive and impactful than Addison or Jefferson which isn't saying much. Maybe his role now will be a backup 1T to Star? Still an odd move unless the paycut is substantial?

 

Butler was signed as the replacement to Jordan Phillips at 3TDT opposite Oliver.

 

With the Bills situation "who in the world can play 1TDT?" between Star opting out and Phillips unable to hack it initially, Butler (and Oliver) were both pressed into service at 1TDT, that being the reason Butler was a bit less impactful than Jefferson. 

 

The Bills are banking on if they return him to his position at 3TDT, he'll return to form.

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Thanks!  I wanna find the video(s) from @Cover 1 where they were saying different.  Maybe its the new CBA?

 

I think they assume that the Bills won't go after his unamortized bonus.  I think they surely will.

[YattaOkasan]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I think they assume that the Bills won't go after his unamortized bonus.  I think they surely will.

That might be it either way i still hope he doesnt retire (I'm gonna keep trying to find more info).  Trying to get that bonus back sounds like its a bit painful.

[CaptnCoke11]

I think Butler was more important to keep around than Jefferson.  Star is an unknown whether he’ll play or not plus I though Butler played fairly well down the stretch playing out of position 

[ngbills]

I hope this is a major paycut. No way we should be paying even $3M. Cutting him would have saved $6.8M...you cant convince me that we could not find a better player in this market. 

[FLFan]

32 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

It's not a release.  It's a player deciding to hang-it-up.  A team is allowed to demand repayment of the unamortized signing bonus, but usually they don't, as a gift for services rendered.  Since Star was barely with the Bills and signed a new deal before opting-out, they'll definitely go after his.  Plus there is the $4.5M salary saved and any other likely to be earned incentives, roster and game bonuses, etc.

Although it opens a hole, this may be the best possible outcome for the Bills at this point.  The Bills missed his presence in the middle last year, but I have a hard time believing that Star will be effective after a year on the couch, at his age as well.  He may well weigh 400 pounds by now. Hopefully this gets resolved early enough for the team to properly react and figure how to fill the hole.  Phillips proved to be not capable of filling this role last year, and combined with the late opt out left them totally under manned for 1T.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

54 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Please explain.  My understanding is retirement is a release thus he costs cap.  This is why were letting Lee Smith retire cause otherwise were cutting him.

 

I know @Cover 1 has discussed it before but here is another reference from last year (3rd paragraph).  https://www.catscratchreader.com/2020/1/15/21066845/nfl-carolina-panthers-luke-kuechly-retirement-cap-space-2020-what-does-it-mean

 

Lee Smith has no dead cap therefore it's pretty much a semantic issue (and face) whether he retires or the Bills release him (I expect one or the other yet). 

 

Normally the difference is that a player who retires can be asked to repay the remaining portion of their amortized signing bonus.  Depending upon the circumstances of the retirement, the team may go after it or they may let it go.

 

This is the reason why Eric Wood scheduled a big retirement press conference in which he suddenly put the skids on and carefully did not use the word "retirement", then stayed on the Bills pay roll until he was released for medical reasons the following pre-season - he didn't want to return any of the signing bonus $$  on his brand new contract to the Bills

[YattaOkasan]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Lee Smith has no dead cap therefore it's pretty much a semantic issue (and face) whether he retires or the Bills release him (I expect one or the other yet). 

 

Normally the difference is that a player who retires can be asked to repay the remaining portion of their amortized signing bonus.  Depending upon the circumstances of the retirement, the team may go after it or they may let it go.

 

This is the reason why Eric Wood scheduled a big retirement press conference in which he suddenly put the skids on and carefully did not use the word "retirement", then stayed on the Bills pay roll until he was released for medical reasons the following pre-season - he didn't want to return any $$ to the Bills

Agree on Lee Smith. 

 

I see you can "try" and get the money back.  Sounds like the process goes to arbitration.  I know (lost the link) you dont get the cap relief until the money is returned.  So since its a process and FA is right around the corner I think its best if Star doesnt retire else were gonna be trying to fill a hole and we wont get the money until later.  The big assumption in there is that the FO would try to get it back.  Appreciate the clarification that we do have some ability to get money back but Star retiring would be pretty awful still.

Edited March 10, 2021 by YattaOkasan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Agree on Lee Smith. 

 

I see you can "try" and get the money back.  Sounds like it goes to arbitration.  I know (lost the link) you dont get the cap money until the money is returned.  So since its a process and FA is right around the corner I think its best if Star doesnt retire else were gonna be trying to fill a hole and we wont get the money until later.  The big assumption in there is that the FO would try to get it back.  Appreciate the clarification that we do have some ability to get money back but Star retiring would be pretty awful still.

 

Where is there even any news about this (Star retiring)?

 

The arbitration in the link above (Martellus Bennet) is, I think, pretty rare and had to do with the Packers alleging that he had a medical condition he didn't disclose when he signed with them. They waived him and Bennett was picked up and played several games for another team.

 

I don't think it's typically that ambiguous or drawn-out for players who for-real retire. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

2 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Exactly he's a penetrating DT not a take on blockers NT, there's a difference. Butler was signed to replace Jordan Phillips and when Star didn't return we kinda forced him to be the big man in the middle yet that's not what he's all about. 

Way too much is made about playing 1 tech v 3 tech etc.  The guy weighs well over 300 pounds.  He should be able to play stout and strong in the middle of the D line regardless of where he lines up.  You can either play or you can't.  If he can't there is always the UPS loading dock.  Not sure why all the Vernon Butler apologists on here.  The guy is being paid millions to be a DT.  He was decent at times last year but never dominant.  Hopefully if we keep him around, he steps his game up several levels on a consistent basis.  Its not like the Bills were asking him to return punts for gods sake.  Its football.  Its a man's game supposedly played by some tough SOB's.  At least it used to be.  Lets not forget that on here.  Get it together Vernon and show Bills Nation (hate the term Bills Mafia) that you belong on our 53 man roster, and start kicking some booty on a regular basis.  

[YattaOkasan]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Where is there even any news about this (Star retiring)?

 

The arbitration in the link above (Martellus Bennet) is, I think, pretty rare and had to do with the Packers alleging that he had a medical condition he didn't disclose when he signed with them. They waived him and Bennett was picked up and played several games for another team.

 

I don't think it's typically that ambiguous or drawn-out for players who for-real retire. 

No news the discussion was tangential.  Someone mentioned hoping they cut Star (really bad idea) and I responded say I just hope he doesnt retire which lead us to this rabbit hole.  No news here.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, ngbills said:

I hope this is a major paycut. No way we should be paying even $3M. Cutting him would have saved $6.8M...you cant convince me that we could not find a better player in this market. 

 

Well I guess we won't even try to convince you then, but why don't you suggest some players you have in mind?  (bearing in mind Butler by nature is a 3TDT)

[Doc]

18 minutes ago, FLFan said:

Although it opens a hole, this may be the best possible outcome for the Bills at this point.  The Bills missed his presence in the middle last year, but I have a hard time believing that Star will be effective after a year on the couch, at his age as well.  He may well weigh 400 pounds by now. Hopefully this gets resolved early enough for the team to properly react and figure how to fill the hole.  Phillips proved to be not capable of filling this role last year, and combined with the late opt out left them totally under manned for 1T.

 

I have no idea what shape Star is in.  But I doubt he retires because he would owed the Bills a lot of money.  The worst-case is he returns out-of-shape (too heavy or too light) and goes through the motion to get himself cut or plays poorly during the season.  Hopefully he kept himself in shape and is motivated to play for a SB contender.

[The Jokeman]

6 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Way too much is made about playing 1 tech v 3 tech etc.  The guy weighs well over 300 pounds.  He should be able to play stout and strong in the middle of the D line regardless of where he lines up.  You can either play or you can't.  If he can't there is always the UPS loading dock.  Not sure why all the Vernon Butler apologists on here.  The guy is being paid millions to be a DT.  He was decent at times last year but never dominant.  Hopefully if we keep him around, he steps his game up several levels on a consistent basis.  Its not like the Bills were asking him to return punts for gods sake.  Its football.  Its a man's game supposedly played by some tough SOB's.  At least it used to be.  Lets not forget that on here.  Get it together Vernon and show Bills Nation (hate the term Bills Mafia) that you belong on our 53 man roster, and start kicking some booty on a regular basis.  

I'm not apologizing for him as I'd rather see him cut then kept as think Oliver, Zimmer and player X better options. That said I can recognize the difference between a guy that's better suited to play one vs other position. As not all DTs are the same. I mean the beloved Kyle Williams was over 300 too but I'd never ask him to play the nose as that's just not in his skill set.

Edited March 10, 2021 by The Jokeman

[Reader]

9 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I have no idea what shape Star is in.  But I doubt he retires because he would owed the Bills a lot of money.  The worst-case is he returns out-of-shape (too heavy or too light) and goes through the motion to get himself cut or plays poorly during the season.  Hopefully he kept himself in shape and is motivated to play for a SB contender.

 

Out of curiosity, what happens if they IR Star? Can they do that?

[BADOLBILZ]

38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Butler was signed as the replacement to Jordan Phillips at 3TDT opposite Oliver.

 

With the Bills situation "who in the world can play 1TDT?" between Star opting out and Phillips unable to hack it initially, Butler (and Oliver) were both pressed into service at 1TDT, that being the reason Butler was a bit less impactful than Jefferson. 

 

The Bills are banking on if they return him to his position at 3TDT, he'll return to form.

 

Exactly........he was coming off a 6 sack season and was slated to replace Phillips.

 

But they also signed Jefferson.........not yet knowing they would get a regular contributor at DE in Epenesa in the draft.

 

So as it turned out Jefferson's fit was better at 3T.

 

I think they tried to find another DT in season and they found a big contributor in the smallish Justin Zimmer.

 

So Butler really got stuck with more 1TDT duty than he likely signed up for.

 

And he entirely replaced Star Lotulelei in those snaps.

 

Not a popular opinion because people want a reason for the ypc going up against the run..........but they had a MUCH, MUCH tougher schedule........they also lost 3 guys who made a lot of plays behind the LOS in 2019.........without Alexander they played more 4-2-5 and the "2" in that equation were banged up for much of the season.

 

Butler in and Jefferson out fits what I saw on the field.     

  

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Buftex said:

It's funny that everyone sees Star was the "missing piece" from the D-line in 2020, when many wanted him cut in 2019!

 

 

Before and after results speak pretty loud and clear.  Nobody ever values dudes that eat double teams and don't really put up many stats until they aren't there and then you realize their value.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Big Turk

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Exactly........he was coming off a 6 sack season and was slated to replace Phillips.

 

But they also signed Jefferson.........not yet knowing they would get a regular contributor at DE in Epenesa in the draft.

 

So as it turned out Jefferson's fit was better at 3T.

 

I think they tried to find another DT in season and they found a big contributor in the smallish Justin Zimmer.

 

So Butler really got stuck with more 1TDT duty than he likely signed up for.

 

And he entirely replaced Star Lotulelei in those snaps.

 

Not a popular opinion because people want a reason for the ypc going up against the run..........but they had a MUCH, MUCH tougher schedule........they also lost 3 guys who made a lot of plays behind the LOS in 2019.........without Alexander they played more 4-2-5 and the "2" in that equation were banged up for much of the season.

 

Butler in and Jefferson out fits what I saw on the field.     

  

True. Jefferson was more of a Shaq Lawson replacement. 

 

The problem is they kept Trent Murphy. Should have cut him and saved $7 million. I'm still not sure why they kept him. I'm guessing had Star played Murphy would've been gone. 

[Back2Buff]

This paycut better be massive, cutting would have saved close to 7 million on cap.

 

The guy was terrible last year.  A complete no show when he was healthy, and was unreliable.  A cap hit of 2 million would be about right for this guy,

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Reader said:

Out of curiosity, what happens if they IR Star? Can they do that?

 

They can but unless he's injured, it only hurts them.  He still has the same cap hit, depending on game bonuses/incentives.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, Back2Buff said:

This paycut better be massive, cutting would have saved close to 7 million on cap.

 

The guy was terrible last year.  A complete no show when he was healthy, and was unreliable.  A cap hit of 2 million would be about right for this guy,

He's got so many people on his side, GM, HC, and DL coach. They must believe he has untapped potential. 

[Back2Buff]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He's got so many people on his side, GM, HC, and DL coach. They must believe he has untapped potential. 

 

He's going into year 6.  Only had one good year.  How much untapped potential can really be there?  Potential is just another word for no results.

[FLFan]

24 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I have no idea what shape Star is in.  But I doubt he retires because he would owed the Bills a lot of money.  The worst-case is he returns out-of-shape (too heavy or too light) and goes through the motion to get himself cut or plays poorly during the season.  Hopefully he kept himself in shape and is motivated to play for a SB contender.

The worst case scenario is my fear as well. Let’s hope for the best.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, Back2Buff said:

 

He's going into year 6.  Only had one good year.  How much untapped potential can really be there?  Potential is just another word for no results.

He did play well the last quarter or so of the season. Listen I don't know. They like him.

[BADOLBILZ]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

True. Jefferson was more of a Shaq Lawson replacement. 

 

The problem is they kept Trent Murphy. Should have cut him and saved $7 million. I'm still not sure why they kept him. I'm guessing had Star played Murphy would've been gone. 

 

 

You may be right that they MAY have cut Murphy if they didn't have to use a rotation of 3T's at 1T.    But remember he was coming off a 3 sack playoff game and they might have still been thinking last September that he was going to be that rangy 9 sack guy he was at his best in Washington.    Of course they also re-found Zimmer because Star opted out. 

[Mat68]

Late in the year Butler played good enough for a space eater plus.  Jefferson was obvious, Brown same thing.  I think Adison is likley a placeholder.  If they sign someone better he is moving on.  

[GunnerBill]

53 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Exactly........he was coming off a 6 sack season and was slated to replace Phillips.

 

But they also signed Jefferson.........not yet knowing they would get a regular contributor at DE in Epenesa in the draft.

 

So as it turned out Jefferson's fit was better at 3T.

 

I think they tried to find another DT in season and they found a big contributor in the smallish Justin Zimmer.

 

So Butler really got stuck with more 1TDT duty than he likely signed up for.

 

And he entirely replaced Star Lotulelei in those snaps.

 

Not a popular opinion because people want a reason for the ypc going up against the run..........but they had a MUCH, MUCH tougher schedule........they also lost 3 guys who made a lot of plays behind the LOS in 2019.........without Alexander they played more 4-2-5 and the "2" in that equation were banged up for much of the season.

 

Butler in and Jefferson out fits what I saw on the field.     

  

 

This is a very good summary. 

[billsfan89]

49 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

This paycut better be massive, cutting would have saved close to 7 million on cap.

 

The guy was terrible last year.  A complete no show when he was healthy, and was unreliable.  A cap hit of 2 million would be about right for this guy,

 

I actually thought Butler played better the last few games of the regular season and in the playoffs. He was asked to play NT a lot and he isn't an NT despite his size. He was horrid at it for most of the season but I thought his improved play helped a lot with improving the run defense to close the season. I think if he shaves his salary down to 4-5 million he can justify it as being a high end pass rushing reserve DT.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Reader said:

 

Out of curiosity, what happens if they IR Star? Can they do that?

 

We get no cap relief and we're on the hook for his salary (almost all vet players have injury guarantees in their contract, and Lotulelei's salary is fully guaranteed this year).

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well I guess we won't even try to convince you then, but why don't you suggest some players you have in mind?  (bearing in mind Butler by nature is a 3TDT)

Well there are about 50 now and sure to be more on the markjet shortly.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/ufa/defensive-tackle/available/

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Well there are about 50 now and sure to be more on the markjet shortly.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/ufa/defensive-tackle/available/

 

I can find a list.  I'm asking you, since you're so persuaded we can find someone better for less money, who you suggest?

Again, bearing in mind Butler is a 3TDT, not a NT or 1T

You must be able to identify, say, 3, along with a scouting report and some justification of why they'd be better.  Since no one can convince you otherwise and all that.

[ngbills]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I can find a list.  I'm asking you, since you're so persuaded we can find someone better for less money, who you suggest?

Again, bearing in mind Butler is a 3TDT, not a NT or 1T

You must be able to identify, say, 3, along with a scouting report and some justification of why they'd be better.  Since no one can convince you otherwise and all that.

Yes, I could do that if I took the time. My point, this year is a good year as any to find a cheaper replacement than a guy getting paid $7M that is a non-factor. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Good move. Now cut Addison and get younger on the DL

[BuffaloRebound]

There’s something to be said for a little continuity and 2020 was a crazy year for everyone.  Could’ve been a case of Butler was willing to take pay cut and Jefferson wasn’t.  I got no problem keeping him at a reduced number.  

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

That might be it either way i still hope he doesnt retire (I'm gonna keep trying to find more info).  Trying to get that bonus back sounds like its a bit painful.

 

Barry Sanders paid back prorated signing bonus each year getting interest free loan.

Each year he would say "Maybe I will unretire" as reason he did not pay back bonus in full.

 

These days players retire and then threaten to unretire when team cannot afford them.

Kyle Orton pulled that stunt.  

Jeremiah Ratliff did something like that with his agent saying it would take a year for him to heal and so Cowboys released him and then he passed physical with other teams and played for Bears.