The Great Tremaine Edmunds Debate

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

Erik and Nate? Not sure if it was Nate that time, but Erik did at least one video breakdown of Tremaine Edmunds. I left coming away with the impression that his issues are 99% he doesn't know where he has to be and makes bad decisions. I also don't agree that he's a bad tackler. When he is able to read the play correctly and has to fill a gap, nothing is coming out the other side.

 

I agree he needs to be better at shedding blocks, too. I don't think the excuse of him being 22 is a bad one. It's very valid. Reading offenses in the NFL is hard. Some players take longer to get it than others. Edmunds' physical package is well worth the risk that he never really gets it.

 

Agree with this 100%. This is what I see for Edmunds as well. When he reads play good he is amazing at it. Like a few key savings tackles all year. But the  wrong looks bad really bad.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Over the past few days, Bills Twitter has been split over Tremaine Edmunds.

 

The Case for Edmunds:

WGR’s Nate Geary and Cover 1’s Erik Turner

Both have defended Edmunds and believes that he isn’t the problem.  They have also said THE excuse - he’s 22!  Also feels he’s a scapegoat and suffering from having a poor DL.

 

To be fair the stuff about the DL is a good argument but I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.  

 

The case against Edmunds:

Majority of Bills Twitter

 

 

 

Golly, this is such a brain puzzler.

 

On one side the pundits and the players who vote for the Pro Bowl and the Bills coaching staff and a defense that has been consistently good for several years now, though without an offseason and Star Lotulelei they had a very slow start this year ...

 

and on the other side .... Twitter.

 

Golly gee whillikeers, I wonder who's right.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

4 hours ago, HOUSE said:

2× Pro Bowl (2019, 2020)

 

First team All-ACC (2017)

 

Second team All-ACC (2016

Edmunds is why I don’t believe in the pro bowl anymore.

[transplantbillsfan]

5 hours ago, FireChans said:

If Milano and Edmunds were both UFAs, I’d put money on Milano.

 

But you’re right, the timing of their deals make it moot.

 

I do find it frightening that Edmunds looked a whole lot better with Milano back. Obviously, teammates matter especially on defense. But Edmunds was supposed to be All-Pro level. Not sure he’ll ever reach that if he needs a decent LBer next him to play well.

 

Yes I agree Milano is better now and I really do wish we could keep him.

 

But Edmunds has 3 years of steady improvement with the team and 2 more years to keep improving. And he's soooOOOoooo young.

 

This isn't a debate 

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Not sure I few that strongly.  The potential is there but I didn’t see it this season

Pro Bowl players suck.....everybody knows that!

[GunnerBill]

He definitely took a step back in 2020 from where he was in 2019. In 2019 there were still occasional run fit issues but he really was a difference maker in the passing game and the success of the Bills' zone scheme was dependant on Edmunds ability to take away pass lanes and the rally and tackle in underneath coverage. 

 

He did not play as well in coverage - especially early in the year. I know he was hurt and I am not sure how much that affected him. The issues were biting on misdirection and play action, as well as seeming slowed running sideline to sideline more than struggling to disengage from blocks. That wouldn't immediately scream "bad shoulder" to me but it is possible that the injury just got in his head and affected his confidence. 

 

What is true is once he got healthy he did play better and the 2nd half of his season was more akin to his 2019 season. Over his first 10 games of 2020 opposition QB passer ratings when targeting Edmunds were over 100 6 times and he gave up 4 touchdowns in coverage. Over his final 8 including playoffs he did not give up a touchdown and gave up passer ratings over 100 just twice - one of those obviously being Kansas City where I would agree with the defenders that he was not assisted by the scheme. 

 

But basically all his numbers were worse in 2020 than 2019 when you really dig into the advanced stats. 

 

- Worst QB rating vs him in coverage of his career 

- worst yards per completion give up of his career

- worse QB completion % against him than 2019 (though better than his rookie year)

- fewer QB pressures (he had 16 over his first two years and only 3 in 2020 despite being sent on the blitz more times than either other year)

- fewest passes defensed of his career (3 in 2020, down from 9 in 2019 and 12 in 2018)

- fewest tackles for loss (4 in 2020, down from a career high 10 in 2019)

 

I remain an Edmunds fan. I do think the first 10 weeks of his 2020 season were hampered by his injury but 2020 was a regression. That is true of a lot of the defense, for sure, but it is also the case that they need their big ticket items on that defense to step up and Edmunds is one of those. The Bills will take up Tremaine's 5th year option. They are not, despite what some fans think, going to move him outside. But make no mistake 2021 is a pivotal year in this kid's career. If he wants a long term extension from Buffalo he needs to return to 2019 form. 

 

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

But Edmunds has 3 years of steady improvement with the team and 2 more years to keep improving. And he's soooOOOoooo young.

 

This isn't a debate 

 

The bolded is really not true. What he had was a massive improvement in 2019 over 2018 and then a regression in 2020. He was trending towards elite for me at the end of last year. That trend took a knock this year and he needs to rebound in 2021. 

[machine gun kelly]

The reality is we’ll know a lot more after Star comes back how Edmunds will do.  I hate we probably can’t retain Milano as these guys work well as a unit.  Each one has a role and as we saw this year, when you take one or two pieces away the others don’t succeed.

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Edmunds is why I don’t believe in the pro bowl anymore.

 

 

I know, I know. I mean, what a crap lineup, right? Let's just take a look at the 2nd team:

 

QB: Josh Allen

RB: Nick Chubb

WR: Keenan Allen, AJ Brown

TE: Darren Waller

T: Eric Fisher, Orlando Brown

G: Joel Bitonio, David DeCastro

C :  Ryan Kelly

DE: Joey Bosa, Frank Clark

DT: Cameron Heyward, Calais Campbell

OLB: Bradley Chubb, Matt Judon

ILB: Tremaine Edmunds

CB: Marlon Humphrey

CB: Stephon Gilmore

S: Justin Simmons, Tyrann Mathieu

 

I mean, that lineup couldn't play their way out of a paper bag. They'd have a hard time beating up on the Jags, right? I mean, right? Right? Anyone? Right?

 

I think they're going to try as hard as they possibly can to keep Milano. He has been a crucial piece here and they know it. After that, assuming they still have a decent amount of money left on the cap next year, I think they'll likely end up working to keep Edmunds as well.

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Thurman#1

[BillsFan1988]

Anyone see Haason Reddick this yr he was moved bk to his natural position on the outside and was dominitate with 12.5 sacks on the yr. He was considered a massive bust before this season. 

 

Edmunds needs to move outside were his skills will be on full display . I definitely would like to also see him play with more intensity. 

 

Ed Oliver is also playing in the wrong spot  he needs to be in a attacking role as a 3 tech. 

 

I just don't understand why McBeane drafts these guys high then they want to move them away from the positions that got these players drafted highly to begin with. Same thing is happening with Epenesa now he's better suited for LE and we got him on the right side. 

 

Teams usually move players drafted in the latter rounds to new positions not at the top of the draft. These guys haven't played up to there potential and the blame mainly falls on Mcd & Frasier for getting to cute. 

[BillsFan1988]

8 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

They traded a 1st and 3rd to move up in the 1st and got a 5th back as well. It didn’t set the franchise back. I’d say it was pretty reasonable to move up from 22 to 16. 
 

I don’t understand the issue with drafting the player with elite physical traits? I mean people routinely have been bashing Beane for not being aggressive enough and taking players with elite traits, but when he does it and it doesn’t work it was dumb to draft a player with elite traits? 
 

Which one do we want people? Because we can’t flip flop what we B word and moan about. 

The problem is that yr was very strong yr for Lbers in the draft. I loved Darius Leonard and Fred Warner they both were there in 2nd and 3rd rds . We made a massive mistake trading up for Edmunds just so we can move him to a position that doesn't showcase his talents. 

[Thurman#1]

50 minutes ago, BillsFan1988 said:

Anyone see Haason Reddick this yr he was moved bk to his natural position on the outside and was dominitate with 12.5 sacks on the yr. He was considered a massive bust before this season. 

 

Edmunds needs to move outside were his skills will be on full display . I definitely would like to also see him play with more intensity. 

 

Ed Oliver is also playing in the wrong spot  he needs to be in a attacking role as a 3 tech. 

 

I just don't understand why McBeane drafts these guys high then they want to move them away from the positions that got these players drafted highly to begin with. Same thing is happening with Epenesa now he's better suited for LE and we got him on the right side. 

 

Teams usually move players drafted in the latter rounds to new positions not at the top of the draft. These guys haven't played up to there potential and the blame mainly falls on Mcd & Frasier for getting to cute. 

 

 

 

The difference being that Haason Reddick was considered a massive bust while Edmunds has been a two-time Pro Bowler at MLB. They picked him for MLB because he has the skills and abilities that they want at MLB. You may not want them there, but McDermott  and Beane do.

 

And I'm not sure what you're talking about with Oliver. Attacking 3-tech is exactly what he's already doing.

[CaptnCoke11]

He’s not very physical and has poor instincts.  I’m no expert or anything but I’d say those aren’t good qualities to have for an NFL linebacker. 

[JMF2006]

The kids going to be 23 next season and going on his 4th year.

 

Even though I had the size and some speed there is no way I could have played MLB at 20 years old in my flag football league.

 

This guy has has done it in the NFL and made the Pro Bowl twice (I know he may not have deserved this year)

 

The kid also did it with one wing for 4 or 5 weeks and a lot of guys would have taken that time off to heal..... not this kid.

 

I think he is super tough mentally and physically and he is going to be a superstar....give him time to grow and to acquire the smarts.

 

[colin]

he flashes very good ability, and fairly regularly when he's not hurt.  the issue is he gets fooled way way too much, and his mistakes offset enough of his positive plays to make you wonder if he's worth the money he will cost.

 

i think a large part of this is that our scheme combined w the players we have is just too limited and predictable.  clearly mcd knows that his DL is what matters the most, but we've had 4 giant misses (5 if you count star being out) on that front.

 

i agree w people who talk about edmunds playing on the outside.  i think we need a couple more upgrades at DB, or have our back ups improve, so we can vary up our scheme a bit.  we need edmunds to make fewer mistakes, but more than anything we need a real impact at our DL.  i have honestly never seen a team that would improve more than a young bruce smith being on it than ours.  

[DCOrange]

He's a solid starter, is super young, and has great athletic traits. I definitely do not view him as a pro bowl caliber player yet (yes, I know he's made a couple of them but I don't think they were deserved).

 

Milano is the better player of the two IMO. Having said that, it seems like Beane ultimately has to choose between the two of them and I expect him to choose Edmunds both due to what they already invested in him as well as his age and athletic traits.

 

It makes me nervous because I expect Edmunds will be paid like he's a top 5 linebacker and if he doesn't improve, that's really poor value during a time that we need to be careful with our money.

 

To some of the other points in this thread: as a Bills/Bucs fan, I would say White is significantly better than Edmunds. That isn't really a knock on Edmunds...White is just really good already and still improving. The Bucs have IMO the best LB duo in the league with him and David (who's in the conversation for #1 LB in the league). Re: playing Edmunds outside, I do wish we'd at least situationally use him that way. He had some nice flashes of being an edge rusher in college and he definitely has the athletic traits to be able to contribute there as well. We don't really have the LBs behind him to be able to play him that way though (and I imagine that is by design).

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Pro Bowl players suck.....everybody knows that!

Tyrod is about to be enshrined 

[SoCal Deek]

My daughter used to play soccer at a high level growing up. There was always a girl on the team with the physical tools who you thought, wow, she’s going to be a player! They very rarely were. Edmunds reminds me of those girls. He was born with the gift of size and speed. He’s not yet figured out what to do with those gifts. He looks lost, tentative, slow to the point of attack, unwilling to engage, too often blown up because he’s just too tall, etc.....and I’ve seen very little evolution over the last couple of years. The light bulb has simply not gone on.

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

He's a solid starter, is super young, and has great athletic traits. I definitely do not view him as a pro bowl caliber player yet (yes, I know he's made a couple of them but I don't think they were deserved).

 

 

He has made 2 pro bowl because MLB is significantly weaker in the AFC than in the NFC. If the Bills were in the NFC no way Edmunds has sniffed a pro bowl. 

 

The conferences are not always balanced at a specific position. 

[oldmanfan]

Two things will fix Edmunds:

 

1.  Get an actual 1 technique DT in front of him again

2.  Hire Luke Keuchly as a consultant and have him go over film again and again with Edmunds.  Have him there during preseason next year.  Edmunds has the tools, he just has to learn the nuances of reading plays and such and since Kuechly played that role to a T with McD in Carolina, he would be the best teacher.  

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He has made 2 pro bowl because MLB is significantly weaker in the AFC than in the NFC. If the Bills were in the NFC no way Edmunds has sniffed a pro bowl. 

 

The conferences are not always balanced at a specific position. 

If Edmunds is a pro bowl caliber MLB their have to be a dozen other AFC fan bases who are REALLY frustrated at the lack of performance on their roster. Is that really true? I doubt it.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

If Edmunds is a pro bowl caliber MLB their have to be a dozen other AFC fan bases who are REALLY frustrated at the lack of performance on their roster. Is that really true? I doubt it.

 

At MLB? Well who are the AFC guys you'd take ahead of him? Darius Leonard? Sure, he is a lock. Devin Bush? Missed half the season injured. Maybe at a stretch Hightower? I personally think he slightly past his best but he opted out anyway. There are numerous teams in the conference in a really bad way at the spot - the Bengals, the Browns, the Raiders, the Jets, the Titans and the Chargers just right off the top of my head are deficient at the spot.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

1.  Get an actual 1 technique DT in front of him again

 

Now THIS is a big part of the solution! Go back and watch the Chiefs game. Time and time again Edmunds was literally swallowed up by a Chiefs Offensive Lineman. So much so that you couldn’t even see Tremaine’s number to know it was him! The only way Edmunds will ever be successful is keep the OL from getting to his level.

[bigK14094]

12 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Beane tries to trade him.  In the draft,  you look for the NFL equivalent of a college graduate degree.  Bills shoukd not be in the business of putting players through college and hoping they graduate to be job- worthy in time for a second contract. Especially first rounders

Marv Levy always wanted smart players....it was one of his criteria for selecting in the draft.  A really low Wonderlich score is a warming.....ala CJ Spiller and W. McGahee.....who needed their signals in from the sideline separately, as they couldn't catch the play call by the QB.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I still think Edmunds with develop into a good player but I’m not paying him top MLB money right now. I would do a Bobby Wagner type deal right now but not much more than that.

[MJS]

He is just the whipping boy of late. I don't think fans really know what they are talking about with him.

 

And he will not likely ever be switched to OLB.

[Shaw66]

I've written about Edmunds a lot.  I may decide to get into the detailed discussion in this thread, but that largely will be repeating things I've said elsewhere.  

 

I think the Bills should keep Edmunds, and he should continue to be the Bills middle linebacker.  When you get past all of the analysis and the details and the stats, the basic question is whether the Bills will have a better middle linebacker if they get rid of Edmunds.   I think the answer to that question clearly is no.  Edmunds is at a minimum a better than average NFL middle linebacker.  He still is young for the league and growing into the role.  An All-Pro middle linebacker is not an essential piece of a championship team.  

 

The Bills should keep Edmunds because he isn't a liability, his replacement almost certainly will be worse, and he has potential. 

[JohnNord]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

He definitely took a step back in 2020 from where he was in 2019. In 2019 there were still occasional run fit issues but he really was a difference maker in the passing game and the success of the Bills' zone scheme was dependant on Edmunds ability to take away pass lanes and the rally and tackle in underneath coverage. 

 

He did not play as well in coverage - especially early in the year. I know he was hurt and I am not sure how much that affected him. The issues were biting on misdirection and play action, as well as seeming slowed running sideline to sideline more than struggling to disengage from blocks. That wouldn't immediately scream "bad shoulder" to me but it is possible that the injury just got in his head and affected his confidence. 

 

What is true is once he got healthy he did play better and the 2nd half of his season was more akin to his 2019 season. Over his first 10 games of 2020 opposition QB passer ratings when targeting Edmunds were over 100 6 times and he gave up 4 touchdowns in coverage. Over his final 8 including playoffs he did not give up a touchdown and gave up passer ratings over 100 just twice - one of those obviously being Kansas City where I would agree with the defenders that he was not assisted by the scheme. 

 

But basically all his numbers were worse in 2020 than 2019 when you really dig into the advanced stats. 

 

- Worst QB rating vs him in coverage of his career 

- worst yards per completion give up of his career

- worse QB completion % against him than 2019 (though better than his rookie year)

- fewer QB pressures (he had 16 over his first two years and only 3 in 2020 despite being sent on the blitz more times than either other year)

- fewest passes defensed of his career (3 in 2020, down from 9 in 2019 and 12 in 2018)

- fewest tackles for loss (4 in 2020, down from a career high 10 in 2019)

 

I remain an Edmunds fan. I do think the first 10 weeks of his 2020 season were hampered by his injury but 2020 was a regression. That is true of a lot of the defense, for sure, but it is also the case that they need their big ticket items on that defense to step up and Edmunds is one of those. The Bills will take up Tremaine's 5th year option. They are not, despite what some fans think, going to move him outside. But make no mistake 2021 is a pivotal year in this kid's career. If he wants a long term extension from Buffalo he needs to return to 2019 form. 

 

 

The bolded is really not true. What he had was a massive improvement in 2019 over 2018 and then a regression in 2020. He was trending towards elite for me at the end of last year. That trend took a knock this year and he needs to rebound in 2021. 

This seems like a pretty honest evaluation from someone who admittedly was a Tremaine supporter.  I agree that they’ll pick up the option for year 5 but he REALLY needs to show something in 2021.  All excuses go out the window 

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I've written about Edmunds a lot.  I may decide to get into the detailed discussion in this thread, but that largely will be repeating things I've said elsewhere.  

 

I think the Bills should keep Edmunds, and he should continue to be the Bills middle linebacker.  When you get past all of the analysis and the details and the stats, the basic question is whether the Bills will have a better middle linebacker if they get rid of Edmunds.   I think the answer to that question clearly is no.  Edmunds is at a minimum a better than average NFL middle linebacker.  He still is young for the league and growing into the role.  An All-Pro middle linebacker is not an essential piece of a championship team.  

 

The Bills should keep Edmunds because he isn't a liability, his replacement almost certainly will be worse, and he has potential. 

By keep, do you mean sign him to a second contract that puts him among the top 5-10 highest paid at his position?  Or just keep him for years 4 and maybe 5 of his rookie contract and then decide?

10 hours ago, Boxcar said:

Erik and Nate? Not sure if it was Nate that time, but Erik did at least one video breakdown of Tremaine Edmunds. I left coming away with the impression that his issues are 99% he doesn't know where he has to be and makes bad decisions. I also don't agree that he's a bad tackler. When he is able to read the play correctly and has to fill a gap, nothing is coming out the other side.

 

I agree he needs to be better at shedding blocks, too. I don't think the excuse of him being 22 is a bad one. It's very valid. Reading offenses in the NFL is hard. Some players take longer to get it than others. Edmunds' physical package is well worth the risk that he never really gets it.

At what point does age NOT become an excuse?  23? 24?  34?

[FireChans]

22 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I've written about Edmunds a lot.  I may decide to get into the detailed discussion in this thread, but that largely will be repeating things I've said elsewhere.  

 

I think the Bills should keep Edmunds, and he should continue to be the Bills middle linebacker.  When you get past all of the analysis and the details and the stats, the basic question is whether the Bills will have a better middle linebacker if they get rid of Edmunds.   I think the answer to that question clearly is no.  Edmunds is at a minimum a better than average NFL middle linebacker.  He still is young for the league and growing into the role.  An All-Pro middle linebacker is not an essential piece of a championship team.  

 

The Bills should keep Edmunds because he isn't a liability, his replacement almost certainly will be worse, and he has potential. 

Can’t all of these arguments be made for Milano?

[thurst44]

14 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

You'd think Star Lotulelei was an all pro or something reading this board...

Devin White is the same age as Edmunds and that guy is what a stud MLB looks like. 

He's a decent player. Nothing spectacular.... the Bills went 13-3 because Josh Allen played at an MVP level all year.

 

If Allen played like he did last season the Bills wouldn't have sniffed .500 this season. 

Oh, I know what you think. You're the Mikey of this board, to use a reference that ages me. Let's see Bills fan who hates everything vs. experts who have analyzed his tape + my own eyes from repeated watches. 

 

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm gonna go with the latter. Seriously though, do you ever enjoy anything with the Bills. I'm sorry to personally attack, but it's just so bloody predictable with you.

 

Also, as I have said before with Star. He was brought here after a disastrous 2017 defense of tight ends mostly to help with that. In 2018 and 2019, this defense gave up the fewest yards to tight end. He does not play... the MOST yards to tight ends. 

 

Honestly, it's kind of laughable that you would say that this board worships Star when all you would see was people bemoaning his play and contract until strangely the defense suffered when he was not there.

57 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I've written about Edmunds a lot.  I may decide to get into the detailed discussion in this thread, but that largely will be repeating things I've said elsewhere.  

 

I think the Bills should keep Edmunds, and he should continue to be the Bills middle linebacker.  When you get past all of the analysis and the details and the stats, the basic question is whether the Bills will have a better middle linebacker if they get rid of Edmunds.   I think the answer to that question clearly is no.  Edmunds is at a minimum a better than average NFL middle linebacker.  He still is young for the league and growing into the role.  An All-Pro middle linebacker is not an essential piece of a championship team.  

 

The Bills should keep Edmunds because he isn't a liability, his replacement almost certainly will be worse, and he has potential. 

This sums up my feelings much more clearly and succinctly than what I wrote. Kudos, Shaw66!

Edited February 5, 2021 by thurst44
Addressing a part of his comment I missed

[thurst44]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Tyrod is about to be enshrined 

You must know that is a ridiculous parallel. Tyrod was a 4th or 5th alternate. Tremaine was a 1st alternate last year and made the team straight up this year.

[HeHateMe]

Bad vs the run, bad vs the pass... doesn't make impact plays.  The MLB experiment failed... he doesn't have the instincts for the position and maybe doesn't have them for any position.  Made the Pro-Bowl by default due to injuries this year.

 

We are the worst in the league vs TE due to a huge issue at MLB and Edmunds takes a lot of the blame. 

 

He is what he is at this point, he isn't going to suddenly turn it on and get better at play recognition and instinctual play.  Like what was mentioned earlier in this thread, he's just an athlete...  Not a horrible pick by Beane but he just hasn't developed.  I don't see how you sign him to big money after his rookie deal..  

[pigpen65]

Just move him to OLB where he'll have more space to run around and less important to the run defense. He's just not an ILB, but he could still be useful to the D just based on his size and athleticism 

[thurst44]

11 hours ago, Boxcar said:

Erik and Nate? Not sure if it was Nate that time, but Erik did at least one video breakdown of Tremaine Edmunds. I left coming away with the impression that his issues are 99% he doesn't know where he has to be and makes bad decisions. I also don't agree that he's a bad tackler. When he is able to read the play correctly and has to fill a gap, nothing is coming out the other side.

 

I agree he needs to be better at shedding blocks, too. I don't think the excuse of him being 22 is a bad one. It's very valid. Reading offenses in the NFL is hard. Some players take longer to get it than others. Edmunds' physical package is well worth the risk that he never really gets it.

I don't entirely agree, but a very fair assessment. (and I'll admit to putting a bit of a sunshine spin on players sometime, but i truly don't get the pitchforks that are out for this guy... or really anyone on the roster right now).

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

At MLB? Well who are the AFC guys you'd take ahead of him? Darius Leonard? Sure, he is a lock. Devin Bush? Missed half the season injured. Maybe at a stretch Hightower? I personally think he slightly past his best but he opted out anyway. There are numerous teams in the conference in a really bad way at the spot - the Bengals, the Browns, the Raiders, the Jets, the Titans and the Chargers just right off the top of my head are deficient at the spot.

 

 

 

 

And the Browns let playmaking Joe Schobert walk to the Jags.

 

The reality is that the position is de-valued for a reason.

 

Everyone thinks "teams are passing more we need great coverage LB's".............well KC basically played the AFCCG without LB's and won with ease.

 

The Ravens could easily have been in the AFCCG with maybe the worst MLB in the NFL last year in Patrick Queen.

 

MLB is nice to be strong at.........but it's not steering teams to success............the NFC is the weaker conference for a reason.........they've got all the best MLB's and few of the best QB's.

[Philly McButterpants]

16 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

I vote we get rid of Edmunds and replace him with a linebacker from the 1980s. We will then be able to stop all the elite running offenses in the league like the Ravens, Colts, Patriots and Rams. 
 

Our 1980s LB won’t be able to defend against the pass, but that’s ok. 

Well, truthfully, neither can Edmunds so  . . . 

[Nextmanup]

17 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Not sure I few that strongly.  The potential is there but I didn’t see it this season

The fact that there is such debate surrounding his game is all anyone needs to know about how good he is.

 

Don't recall any debate at all about how good or bad Biscuit or Talley were, for example.

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

 

By keep, do you mean sign him to a second contract that puts him among the top 5-10 highest paid at his position?  Or just keep him for years 4 and maybe 5 of his rookie contract and then decide?

At what point does age NOT become an excuse?  23? 24?  34?

What to do at contract time is exactly the right question.   I'll talk about that in a minute.  

 

Age isn't an excuse.  But age is relevant in Edmunds' case, because players develop with experience, and his age made him and continues to make him relatively inexperienced.   He should continue to develop.  The fact that he should continue to develop is relevant to your more important question.  

 

I think there are very, very few players who are so important that you pay them whatever they want.  Allen is one of those.  I don't think Edmunds is.  The Bills have to evaluate Edmunds, decide how important he is to the defense, decide how much better they think he is going to get, and then put a dollar value on that.   If Edmunds puts a higher value on himself than the Bills do, the Bills have to have the discipline to let him walk.  I would definitely exercise the fifth-year option on him, because it gives the Bills another year to see how he develops and because it gives the Bills another year to see whether his successor might be in the pipeline.  

 

If you ask me, I certainly would pay him at the top-10 level.   Not the top-5 level.   He's not producing at the top-5 level.  But top-10?  Sure, I'd pay at that level.   Looking at annual salaries, the 8th highest inside linebacker is at $12 million, the 16th is at $8 million.  The difference is just not that great.   Paying Edmunds $12 million a year, which is a little better than top-10, would be worth it.  You're not going to get a better guy for substantially less. 

 

I also think that the people who are down on him have unreasonable expectations.   Players should not be evaluated based on where they were drafted.   GMs are evaluated on where they drafted players, but players are evaluated by how they play.   I think fans who think Edmunds is regularly out of position or plugging the wrong gaps are remembering the guy from two years ago.  I think people who think he hurts the Bills in pass defense completely miss the point that he covers larger zones more effectively than almost any MLB I've watched, because he has the speed and body size to do that.  

 

He isn't and probably never will be a top-5 hitter.  He tackles more like a safety than a classic middle-linebacker.  But even there he's been improving regularly.   

 

If Edmunds leaves, fans will almost certainly be disappointed with his replacement.  

2 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

The fact that there is such debate surrounding his game is all anyone needs to know about how good he is.

 

Don't recall any debate at all about how good or bad Biscuit or Talley were, for example.

 

 

There's debate about Edmunds because he isn't playing to expectations.   Compared to players in the league, he isn't so disappointing. 

 

I regularly thought Biscuit was over-rated.   He NEVER played to his draft-hype.  

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, thurst44 said:

You must know that is a ridiculous parallel. Tyrod was a 4th or 5th alternate. Tremaine was a 1st alternate last year and made the team straight up this year.

Yeah and his competition was garbage.

 

The Pro Bowl as a benchmark is stupid.

7 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

The fact that there is such debate surrounding his game is all anyone needs to know about how good he is.

 

Don't recall any debate at all about how good or bad Biscuit or Talley were, for example.

 

 

The Great Luke Kuechly Debate was never raging on the Panthers forums

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

There's debate about Edmunds because he isn't playing to expectations.   Compared to players in the league, he isn't so disappointing. 

 

I think there is debate because he was less productive in 2020 than in 2019. There is a question how much of that was injury, how much of it was scheme, how much of it was other pieces around him but that is where I think some fans will say, and there is some legitimacy to it "you were drafted in the first half of the first round, you gotta step up!"

 

My view is that Edmunds has shown us already that when he is on he is a really good football player who impacts the way offenses can attack us. What he has to do is be more consistent. I think the second half of his year was better than the first, but even within that there were mistakes and plays that really frustrate you with him. I still think the kid can be special, but as everyone acknowledges if he wants that new contract he has to show that special on a more consistent basis next year. 

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The Pro Bowl as a benchmark is stupid.

 

I would certainly say it is limited in its usefulness, put it that way. Here is what is more telling for me:

 

2019: Tremaine Edmunds two votes (out of the 50 available) for all pro consideration

2020: 0 votes

 

His 2019 season he really was trending towards breaking out as one of the top young linebackers in the league. This past season? Not so much. There might be legit reasons for the regression but there was a regression in his play. 

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

They have the same amount of repetitions. It’s just that White’s age 20 season was at LSU while Tremaine’s was in the NFL. 
 

I’m not really privy to the things that White went back to school to work on and what Tremaine has worked on, but I would venture to guess that White was able to focus on his deficiencies in a comfortable environment as a returning player at LSU while Edmunds was adjusting to being a professional player and working on his deficiencies. One guy had a little more on their plate. 
 

Edmunds was considered to have elite traits, but was still seen a development prospect with the ability to develop into an elite player. He fell to 16 for a reason, if he was closer to a finished product with his skill set he’s likely going higher, maybe Top 5 like White? I said pretty elite AND close to finished product for a reason. Both were important to the overall statement. 
 

It’s no longer worth discussing because you will absolutely never move off any of your points as you’ve made very clear before. It’s a waste of my time. 

 

 

They both played 3 years in college and left after Junior years.  Edmunds played 32 games and White played 34 games, so I don't know what you are referring to when you say "returning player at LSU".  Pointing out where each was when they turned 20 make no more sense than your original statement.

 

Edmunds was an elite prospect--considered the top 2 LB....and he was the 2nd LB taken in the draft.  You're argument gets weaker with each post, so...it was wise to bail out.