Can Lee Smith just go already?

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Countless posters here said DiMarco was a waste of a roster spot at least a year before McBeane decided the same.

 

Same for Nate Peterman.  Why? Because we could see what happened on Sunday.  NO was awful, but then he “won” a bogus preason “QB competition@ because McD didn’t have the nerve to start him #7 pick week 1.  The folley of this decision was overwhelmingly obvious by halftime of week 1 and McD then did the obvious and the rest is history.
 

Coaches and FOs make mistakes ALL THE TIME.  How can you argue otherwise credibly? You can’t.

 

LOL....there you go again.  You know what's best for this team more than McDermott and Beane.  It took them 3 years to figure it out but you had it much faster than them.  You know Weo, you know all.

 

So Coaches and FO's make mistakes...they're not perfect.  So since they aren't perfect, that means you from the couch know more about the operations of the team than they do.  

"Since McDermott was wrong about Peterman, that means 100% he was wrong with Dimarco, Smith and anyone else I believe" - Weo.

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Is this a real question?

 

Yeah it is.  Do you from your couch know better than McDermott about the 53 man roster?

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

LOL....there you go again.  You know what's best for this team more than McDermott and Beane.  It took them 3 years to figure it out but you had it much faster than them.  You know Weo, you know all.

 

So Coaches and FO's make mistakes...they're not perfect.  So since they aren't perfect, that means you from the couch know more about the operations of the team than they do.  

"Since McDermott was wrong about Peterman, that means 100% he was wrong with Dimarco, Smith and anyone else I believe" - Weo.

 

Yeah it is.  Do you from your couch know better than McDermott about the 53 man roster?

I’m not sure what you’re confused about.

 

Dimarco was deadwood.  Despite endless BS here about his “value” being a locker room leader, he was finally dumped because he STILL brought nothing on Sunday of value 
 

Despite NP being historically bad already—this clear fact was finally apparent to McD and he then did the right thing re putting Josh into the deep end where he learned to swim.  Starting NP was a predictable error.  There is no arguing otherwise.  
 

What part of any of this wasn’t obvious to fans on the couch?  None of it.  Many called for these moves correctly well before they inevitably happened. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[NoSaint]

9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

LOL....there you go again.  You know what's best for this team more than McDermott and Beane.  It took them 3 years to figure it out but you had it much faster than them.  You know Weo, you know all.

 

So Coaches and FO's make mistakes...they're not perfect.  So since they aren't perfect, that means you from the couch know more about the operations of the team than they do.  

"Since McDermott was wrong about Peterman, that means 100% he was wrong with Dimarco, Smith and anyone else I believe" - Weo.

 

Yeah it is.  Do you from your couch know better than McDermott about the 53 man roster?

there are times when distance can be an asset. 
 

is this one of those times? Maybe. 
 

heck, for all we know there could be debate on this topic between McD, beane, and Daboll.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

I’m not sure what you’re confused about.

 

Dimarco was deadwood.  Despite endless BS here about his “value” being a locker room leader, he was finally dumped because he STILL brought nothing on Sunday of value 
 

Despite NP being historically bad already—this clear fact was finally apparent to McD and he then did the right thing re putting Josh into the deep end where he learned to swim.  Starting NP was a predictable error.  There is no arguing otherwise.  
 

What part of any of this wasn’t obvious to fans on the couch?  None of it.  Many called for these moves correctly well they happened. 

 

I'm not confused about anything lol.

 

Seeing a QB play terribly is much more obvious than understanding why a back up tight end is kept for multiple seasons.  Yes we can see that.  What can we not see?  Inside their doors.

 

So just straight up.

Lee Smith activated - McDermott wrong, Weo right.  Weo knows more about Lee Smith's value than McDermott.  This is correct?

Dimarco - McDermott wrong, Weo right.  This is correct?

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm not confused about anything lol.

 

Seeing a QB play terribly is much more obvious than understanding why a back up tight end is kept for multiple seasons.  Yes we can see that.  What can we not see?  Inside their doors.

 

So just straight up.

Lee Smith activated - McDermott wrong, Weo right.  Weo knows more about Lee Smith's value than McDermott.  This is correct?

Dimarco - McDermott wrong, Weo right.  This is correct?

 

Correct.   On Dimarco MANY here were right.  Nothing clearer than that.  Straight up.  Peterman?  Super straight up----I bet even you had that one figured out before McD.

 

Smith will be going soon.  The Bills still haven't figured out the TE spot for decades.  This FO is no different.  If they are keeping Smith as a glorified shop steward/mens room attendant then they still haven't figured the position out.

 

Pretty simple.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm not confused about anything lol.

 

Seeing a QB play terribly is much more obvious than understanding why a back up tight end is kept for multiple seasons.  Yes we can see that.  What can we not see?  Inside their doors.

 

So just straight up.

Lee Smith activated - McDermott wrong, Weo right.  Weo knows more about Lee Smith's value than McDermott.  This is correct?

Dimarco - McDermott wrong, Weo right.  This is correct?

Do you really think its impossible for a fan to be right on something and coach or GM not be?

 

Like what is this argument?  Why even talk about football?  Let's just say "McD knows best" rather than discussing how well players play?

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

Correct.   On Dimarco MANY here were right.  Nothing clearer than that.  Straight up.  Peterman?  Super straight up----I bet even you had that one figured out before McD.

 

Smith will be going soon.  The Bills still haven't figured out the TE spot for decades.  This FO is no different.  If they are keeping Smith as a glorified shop steward/mens room attendant then they still haven't figured the position out.

 

Pretty simple.

 

You really are saying you have a better grasp of the roster than McDermott....you really are saying it.

[FireChans]

Remember when BB would draft some garbage bust player and Pats fans would get all defensive like, "you think you know more than the guy that won 6 super bowls?!?!?!??"

 

Bills fans becoming Pats fans.  You hate to see it.

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You really are saying you have a better grasp of the roster than McDermott....you really are saying it.

 

 

I'm sayıng I see what I see---so do many others.  

 

And that nothing can be more clear and well documented than the fact that HCs and GMs make bad mistakes every season--errors that fans predicted.   I really don't know how you can insist that is not true.

 

So yes, I (and many) could grasped that NP in now way should have been the week 1 starter in Josh's rookie season and I said so at the time.  By halftime, McD agreed with that assessment, clearly.   I and many concluded that DiMarco was a dud and ultimately McD agreed with us on our couches.  This is all known.  Why deny it?

 

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[Haze_21]

I hated Smith a few years ago but he is getting less penalties and made a few catches this year. 

 

I view him as a basically a hockey enforcer, he is a morale type dude with grit, expendable but i dont mind keeping him if we have space. He shouldn't be running many if any routes tho.

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Do you really think its impossible for a fan to be right on something and coach or GM not be?

 

Like what is this argument?  Why even talk about football?  Let's just say "McD knows best" rather than discussing how well players play?

 

I never said GM's or Coaches are perfect.  You and I can see the obvious like QB's throwing picks or WR dropping balls.  

 

How much do any of us know what happens in the locker room, the film room, the positional meetings, what's happening in practice?  We don't.  So when McDermott activates Smith over Kroft, there's a reason none of us know.  And for message boards fans to say McDermott is wrong activating one back up tight end over the other is silly.  Questioning is much different than criticizing.

 

 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I never said GM's or Coaches are perfect.  You and I can see the obvious like QB's throwing picks or WR dropping balls.  

 

How much do any of us know what happens in the locker room, the film room, the positional meetings, what's happening in practice?  We don't.  So when McDermott activates Smith over Kroft, there's a reason none of us know.  And for message boards fans to say McDermott is wrong activating one back up tight end over the other is silly.  Questioning is much different than criticizing.

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Remember when BB would draft some garbage bust player and Pats fans would get all defensive like, "you think you know more than the guy that won 6 super bowls?!?!?!??"

 

Bills fans becoming Pats fans.  You hate to see it.

 

[Kelly the Dog]

19 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

You really are saying you have a better grasp of the roster than McDermott....you really are saying it.

I’m pretty sure I can be a better head coach than Adam Gase simply by hiring two guys who know NFL football and saying “You take care of all the offense and you take care of all the defense.”

[Jauronimo]

This thread has somehow gotten worse. Surprised I don't feel compelled to join in but here we are.

[Royale with Cheese]

12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I'm sayıng I see what I see---so do many others.  

 

And that nothing can be more clear and well documented than the fact that HCs and GMs make bad mistakes every season--errors that fans predicted.   I really don't know how you can insist that is not true.

 

So yes, I (and many) could grasped that NP in now way should have been the week 1 starter in Josh's rookie season and I said so at the time.  By halftime, McD agreed with that assessment, clearly.   I and many concluded that DiMarco was a dud and ultimately McD agreed with us on our couches.  This is all known.  Why deny it?

 

 

 

Are fans or you ever wrong?  Since you're argument is HC's and GM's make mistakes every season, does that mean anything you say is 100% correct about their decisions?  Whether good or bad?

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

 

 

Remember when we drafted the wrong Josh and that our Josh was going to bust? 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Are fans or you ever wrong?  Since you're argument is HC's and GM's make mistakes every season, does that mean anything you say is 100% correct about their decisions?  Whether good or bad?

 

 

Of course not.  Silly question...and off topic.

 

But good to see you were able to concede (finally) a hopeless point.  

15 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

This thread has somehow gotten worse. Surprised I don't feel compelled to join in but here we are.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Of course not.  Silly question...and off topic.

 

But good to see you were able to concede (finally) a hopeless point.  

 

LOL...it's not off topic.  You've stated you were/are right, McDermott was/is wrong.  That's exactly what we're talking about and you think there's no way you're wrong.

[Mr. WEO]

17 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I’m pretty sure I can be a better head coach than Adam Gase simply by hiring two guys who know NFL football and saying “You take care of all the offense and you take care of all the defense.”

 

Royale says, without being in the locker room and the film room, that's just crazy talk.

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

LOL...it's not off topic.  You've stated you were/are right, McDermott was/is wrong.  That's exactly what we're talking about and you think there's no way you're wrong.

 

 

You've said there's now a fan on his/her couch can be right.  That's ridiculous.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Royale says, without being in the locker room and the film room, that's just crazy talk.

 

Weo thinks I can determine everything from the outside.  I don't need to know the players, the gameplan, the playbook...none of that.  I'm right, they're wrong.

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

You've said there's now a fan on his/her couch can be right.  That's ridiculous.

 

is this english?

[NoSaint]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Are fans or you ever wrong?  Since you're argument is HC's and GM's make mistakes every season, does that mean anything you say is 100% correct about their decisions?  Whether good or bad?

 

Remember when we drafted the wrong Josh and that our Josh was going to bust? 

obviously fans can be wrong.

 

This is turning into one of the stranger rants in awhile. And there have been some strange ones 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Weo thinks I can determine everything from the outside.  I don't need to know the players, the gameplan, the playbook...none of that.  I'm right, they're wrong.

 

 

lol McD spent a month preparing and planning for NP to start week 1 Josh's rookie year (despite an epic season prior).  McD saw all the film.  He read the playbooks.   He was in all the locker rooms.  The meetings.  The cafeterias.  The whirlpools and hot tubs.  He met with all the liaisons......and then his entire offseason plan was tossed into the garbage after the season was only 30 minutes old.!!

 

But you're right.....no one outside of that organization could possibly have accurately predicted this outcome before it happened!!

 

that's funny. 

 

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

obviously fans can be wrong.

 

This is turning into one of the stranger rants in awhile. And there have been some strange ones 

 

Yeah, you're right....I'm done in this thread.  

[Jauronimo]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

obviously fans can be wrong.

 

This is turning into one of the stranger rants in awhile. And there have been some strange ones 

This one is indeed bizarre even by TBD standards.

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

obviously fans can be wrong.

 

This is turning into one of the stranger rants in awhile. And there have been some strange ones 

 

 

No one else one has claimed otherwise.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[BillsShredder83]

6 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

I think he is vastly overpaid for such a niche position. He isn't much of a factor in the receiving game and I am not sure how great of a blocker he is. He is getting paid 3 million to handle a position that is increasingly less valuable in the modern NFL.

 

I just am not seeing the value the Bills are getting out of that 3 million cap charge even if Smith is a great blocker. Unless Smith adds value via special teams that I am not seeing he just seems more like a niche player who is paid well beyond that. 

i saw him handle Bosa 1 on 1 against the Chargers.  Hes a nasty blocker out there, and this coaching staff has earned our trust finding value in players that our naked eye cant see.  See Star Loutieue as example #1 this year of a player the board had a hard time seeing value in.  The roster didnt change much and yet here we are missing him this year

[Nick the Greek]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

Dude, he is a blocker who occasionally runs a route. What's your problem? He's basically an olineman.

And a nasty one at that. 

[QLBillsFan]

Man let’s end this. He’s a damn good nasty with an edge run blocker. We are trying to get ready for playoff football and create some semblance of a run game. Knox is athletic as heck as demonstrated last night. Unfortunately Kroft is odd man out for now. Glad we have great depth and wouldn’t count Kroft out at some point. Ok I’m out 💯

Edited December 9, 2020 by QLBillsFan

[Bob in STL]

8 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

 

Nope, just wanted to vent. I was irate in the game day thread yesterday. 

 

I thought about it again today. 

You were irate. That’s funny.

 

Look at the replay, Allen waited too long, then misfired behind him.  Probably the only mistake Allen made all day.  

Edited December 9, 2020 by Bob in STL

[machine gun kelly]

8 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

 

How many times have we seen Lee get a penalty one of the two snaps he gets a game?

we have the most complete win, talk of Allen fir MVP, and even now announcers are talking about how we can beat the Steelers after the way they played for two games and you’re hot take is Lee Smith is fat?  

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, BillsShredder83 said:

i saw him handle Bosa 1 on 1 against the Chargers.  Hes a nasty blocker out there, and this coaching staff has earned our trust finding value in players that our naked eye cant see.  See Star Loutieue as example #1 this year of a player the board had a hard time seeing value in.  The roster didnt change much and yet here we are missing him this year

 

I saw Star's value esp in the back end of 2019, I get that not every player is going to stuff the stat sheet or be eye popping. But Smith got a lot of bad holding penalties in 2019 and I would be shocked to see him out there for more than 25% of the offensive snaps. Unless he is a really good ST player (In ways that I am not privy too which is possible) who also fills a niche role on offense and adds value to the locker room. But honestly I just don't see 3 million in value from Smith as a blocker on a small amount of snaps.

[BuffaloButt]

Lee Smith was wide open for what probably would have been a 40 yd TD catch but Josh didn't see him down the sideline and no one was covering him last night during a play.  Maybe I'll add a video clip later if I look it up.

[Punching Bag]

4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

You don’t know the locker room.  You don’t know the relationship between them.  What’s actually is silly is you think you do.  You know what’s valuable in the Bills locker room....you really deep down believe that.
 

Since I don’t either, I’m taking the words of the guy who is...that’s Allen.  He specifically says he has helped him so he’s added value.

In fact, the average NFL career is probably 3 years.  Smith is in his 9th so obviously he’s been valuable enough to last this long.  
 

Yes he will be gone one day but that doesn’t take away what he did when he was here.  You basically think he’s a waste.

 

Actually he is in his 10th.  4 in Buffalo, 4 with Raiders, 2nd with Buffalo again.

[Buffaloflash]

16 hours ago, 4thandGoal said:

Are you looking for some attention by creating this thread? I am so glad that you are not part of the coaching staff cuz we be Owen 16 with you

I saw that.🙂

[BillsFan130]

12 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I never said GM's or Coaches are perfect.  You and I can see the obvious like QB's throwing picks or WR dropping balls.  

 

How much do any of us know what happens in the locker room, the film room, the positional meetings, what's happening in practice?  We don't.  So when McDermott activates Smith over Kroft, there's a reason none of us know.  And for message boards fans to say McDermott is wrong activating one back up tight end over the other is silly.  Questioning is much different than criticizing.

 

 

I see your point, but here is my perspective. Not saying I am right as I could be wrong.

 

1. I think it is more up to Daboll over MCD who plays on the offensive side of the ball. Sure MCD has final say because he is the HC, but my strong guess is daboll has a heavy influence on who he wants in the lineup/pacakges on the offensive side of the ball.

 

2. I can't say I buy the theory that Lee smith is in cause his intangibles, meetings, practices etc. There were many games he was inactive this year. Why would they make him inactive for half the games if that were the case?

 

3. I think the reason smith is inactive and active sometimes is because Daboll is a very game plan specific coach. Lee smith is obviously a great run blocker, and it seems like when the Bills want to run the ball more, he is usually active. (With the exception of last week)

 

In saying that, I think smith has been active the last 3 weeks so Daboll must like him better in the line-up over Kroft,at least of late.

 

But I have a hard time buying the theory that Smith plays because he is a locker room guy, and cause he is good in practice etc. If that were the case, I don't think he wouldn't be inactive for half the games this year.

 

I could be wrong, but just my personal opinion.

Edited December 9, 2020 by BillsFan130

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

It’s not Josh’s liaison... Josh said he learned things from him leadership wise... and he’s a guy that acts as a liaison for ALL OF THE PLAYERS. I really don’t understand how you created this idea that Josh needs someone to talk to McDermott and Daboll about everything for him. 
 

That’s not what it is. Do you understand there are conversations that players have with other players that they won’t necessarily bring up to the coaching staff? 

 

I don’t understand why you continue to push back on this when I’ve literally witnessed these things put in place and happen. Coaching staff and players aren’t friends, they have to work together. Staff members are seen as management by players... players are an entirely different party.  They don’t always freely discuss everything... but it’s valuable to have guys that build good relationships and are able to bridge the gap between the two parties. 

 

An example of this:  When Josh was "twisted up" in that tackle by Bosa, he came out, apparently said he was OK and declined medical attention.   I have the impression the coaches and trainers are pretty well aware that Josh would decline medical attention and say he's good to go for just about anything.  Lee Smith is the one who came up to Josh as he waited on the sideline, 2x as I recall, and talked to him. 

 

Now I don't think that's why the Bills are keeping him around...I think we've seen him get playing time because Kroft and Knox weren't gettin' 'er done on the run blocking.

 

But I think it's an example of what @JGMcD2 is talking about, where Smith is more on a peer/buddy level and might be able to sanity-check if Josh is bent on heroics when he should be heading for the tent.

[Dablitzkrieg]

18 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

Watching that fat idiot keep running while Josh was waiting for him to sit on 4th down is just.....so sick of him.

Lol, I would pay to watch Smith bash your face in

[Ramza86]

Just now, Dablitzkrieg said:

Lol, I would pay to watch Smith bash your face in

 

$40 ppv. 

 

I need at least 100,000 buys. Lee and I will split the money in half. 

 

I will fight him no problem.

[Bulldog]

What a strange thread this is. Over the years we have had many instances of players who contributed relatively little on Sunday (or should we correct that verbiage to "Game Day", now that the Bills are more successful again!) - but were kept around for what was widely considered to be "Leadership" qualities (for you fellow old timers - Phil Villapiano is a good example of this).

 

What is the value of having a player like Smith or Villapiano on the roster? I for one feel that there can be a place for a player like this - and the value of such a player must be found outside the statistics. This is not to say that Lee smith's penchant for untimely penalties does not bother me (it certainly does) - but Smith's contribution to the team might indeed hold more value than we might think. When he offers no value to the team - or when his negative plays (penalties) outweigh his intangible contributions - then I have no doubt that the Bill's waste no time in releasing him. After all - the NFL is a cut throat business - no room for sentimentality in the NFL.

 

Also - to paraphrase Buddy Ryan (at least I've seen this attributed to him) -- "If you start listening to what the fans say you should be doing, then you will soon be sitting in the stands with them".

 

[JGMcD2]

27 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

An example of this:  When Josh was "twisted up" in that tackle by Bosa, he came out, apparently said he was OK and declined medical attention.   I have the impression the coaches and trainers are pretty well aware that Josh would decline medical attention and say he's good to go for just about anything.  Lee Smith is the one who came up to Josh as he waited on the sideline, 2x as I recall, and talked to him. 

 

Now I don't think that's why the Bills are keeping him around...I think we've seen him get playing time because Kroft and Knox weren't gettin' 'er done on the run blocking.

 

But I think it's an example of what @JGMcD2 is talking about, where Smith is more on a peer/buddy level and might be able to sanity-check if Josh is bent on heroics when he should be heading for the tent.

Yeah, that’s an example of a situation for sure.

 

There could be a huge list of things, some things off the field, in the locker room and more. 
 

It’s not just for Josh either... 

[Buftex]

5 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

 

 

Also - to paraphrase Buddy Ryan (at least I've seen this attributed to him) -- "If you start listening to what the fans say you should be doing, then you will soon be sitting in the stands with them".

 

Actually, I believe that was Marv Levy who said that... though he might not have been the originator.  Sounds too smart for Buddy Ryan!

Edited December 9, 2020 by Buftex