Something that I worry about...would we see a Wentz like regression in Allen if Daboll leaves?

[gomper]

Not sure if this has been posted but here's a good explanation of what's up with Wentz.

 

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Everything that Daboll has been doing here will make him a hot commodity. Team will watch his offense from just this year and he will be a HC somewhere next season if he wants it, no doubt about it. The Bills should already be anticipating this and on the lookout for a new OC. Depending on who it is I could see Allen having a regression but not as bad a Wentz. 

[T master]

21 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

 

I understand your concern but hasn't the Eagles lost some of the O line talent and WR talent that they had when Wentz was doing really good a few yrs back ? 

 

I know the other day the commentators were saying how he didn't have time in the pocket and his receivers aren't doing him any favors . If a QB doesn't have 2 rings at the very least they can't succeed they need protection and some one that will catch a ball when it's thrown to them if you got that they at least have something to work with .

 

If not Brady has shown even if your the GOAT you can't make it work .

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, TonyBeets said:

It baffles me that there are people that feel as if the problem in Philly is Wentz.  They have a practice squad of an offense.  That front office needs to be fired.

 

The front office? How are they to blame for the injuries? The best 3 of their five starting oline done for the year, both of their tight ends have missed significant time as has their dynamic running back and all their receivers have been hurt at one time or another. The one area you can point to where the front office has done a bad job is in drafting receivers. I never liked the Arcega-Whiteside pick I had a mid 4th round grade on him coming out to take him in the 2nd was crazy to me. I thought they over drafted Reagor too taking him in the first, but not as gratuitously and I do think he will turn out to be a decent player.... he just isn't a #1 receiver type to me.

 

But a part of the problem in Philly IS most definitely Carson Wentz. He is just playing Quarterback badly. He is holding the ball forever, he is spinning out of clean pockets, he is short hopping balls..... it is really ugly to watch. Joe Burrow had a disaster zone of an oline infront of him and a rookie in Higgins and a clapped out shell of AJ Green to throw to but he was still making plays. I think Wentz's biggest issue is he is really bad at making the routine plays. And while everyone loves the play where the QB avoids the rush escapes the pocket and the with pressure in his face completes a ball 35 yards downfield... that is pretty useless if he can't then find a 6 yard out on 1st down to get you into manageable down and distance. It just isn't the way to live as an NFL starting Quarterback. One of the things Josh McCown could be seeing trying to drill into him last year on All or Nothing was that playing NFL Quarterback is about stacking completions. That is where we have seen year to year regression in Wentz. His ability to just do the routine and stack completions. All or Nothing is an apt way to describe watching him play and at the moment because his confidence has nose dived and his mechanics have completely broken down, more often than not it is nothing.

[GunnerBill]

33 minutes ago, T master said:

 

I understand your concern but hasn't the Eagles lost some of the O line talent and WR talent that they had when Wentz was doing really good a few yrs back ? 

 

I know the other day the commentators were saying how he didn't have time in the pocket and his receivers aren't doing him any favors . If a QB doesn't have 2 rings at the very least they can't succeed they need protection and some one that will catch a ball when it's thrown to them if you got that they at least have something to work with .

 

If not Brady has shown even if your the GOAT you can't make it work .

 

So for all the people saying "it isn't Wentz" I really encourage you to go and watch some all22 of Eagles games and you will see why he is a big part of the problem. 

 

 

Look at the screenshot above (this is pretty high tech for me lol). This is a 2nd and 13 play from the first quarter the other night. Good protection. Two open receivers. The orange dot receiver is a catch and run that gets you, at worst, 3rd and manageable. The red dot is past the sticks and open for an easy 1st down.... where does Wentz go? To the covered purple dot who might have half a step but is a low percentage throw with the safety on his way across to help. The ball was incomplete the Eagles went 3 and out.

 

Not a bad chance to take in isolation. But the tape is full of plays just like this one. He has to be able to make the routine plays that are there. He is missing completions all over the place that move the sticks because he is trying to force big plays. It is really BAD quarterbacking. 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Teddy KGB]

This is embarrassing.   

[Mr. WEO]

No reason to worry.  Josh is a CREATOR after the snap.  Wentz is a dud when tasked to think on the fly.  

 

They are nothing alike.  Allen would be fine without Daboll.  Stop worrying.

[DrDawkinstein]

3 hours ago, Jaraxxus said:

Eagles fans I hear on 97.5 disagree with you.

 

Peterson has been a dismal failure as a playcaller since Reich left.

 

Folks who call into sports radio dont really prove anything. If you told me "fans I hear on WGR disagree with you" it would only solidify my opinions as correct.

[djp14150]

22 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

 

Wentz hasn’t regressed...the team around him isn’t as good. He hasn’t had a stable OL group and starters are out.

[Big Turk]

36 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

 

Wentz hasn’t regressed...the team around him isn’t as good. He hasn’t had a stable OL group and starters are out.

 

Wentz 100% has regressed. His fundamentals are shot right now.

[SoTier]

23 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

 

I think that Allen would be fine with another OC as long as it wasn't some idiot who thinks he's God's gift to offensive football and installs an offense that doesn't fit Allen's skills and demands that Allen be something he's not.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, djp14150 said:

 

Wentz hasn’t regressed...the team around him isn’t as good. He hasn’t had a stable OL group and starters are out.

 

He really, really, really has. Please go and watch some of the film. The Brian Baldinger break downs on his twitter this week do a better job than I can but he talks about the same play I screenshotted above as well as a number of others from the Seattle game. Yes - his supporting cast is bad. But Wentz is playing badly besides that. There are numerous plays each week that are just on Carson Wentz. Holding the ball, misfiring with bad mechanics and failing to make simple reads.

[gomper]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He really, really, really has. Please go and watch some of the film. The Brian Baldinger break downs on his twitter this week do a better job than I can but he talks about the same play I screenshotted above as well as a number of others from the Seattle game. Yes - his supporting cast is bad. But Wentz is playing badly besides that. There are numerous plays each week that are just on Carson Wentz. Holding the ball, misfiring with bad mechanics and failing to make simple reads.

Check out the link I posted up page. You're exactly right. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, gomper said:

Not sure if this has been posted but here's a good explanation of what's up with Wentz.

 

 

 

It's been linked in a couple posts but it deserves its own room. 

 

I like Kollman, worth watching.

[JoshAllenReceipts]

Wentz hasn't "regressed" actually, he's the same terrible QB he has always been. He no longer has RG Brandon Brooks and RT Lane Johnson (best Right Side OL in Football) to prop him up. Wentz has never been a good NFL QB, it was just being covered up by the Eagles supporting cast around him. Now, he is being badly exposed.

 

Wentz was a System QB in 2017, a byproduct of the O-Line and system.

 

Wentz 2017-19 was being carried by his Right Guard Brandon Brooks - the true MVP of the Eagles.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, SoTier said:

I think that Allen would be fine with another OC as long as it wasn't some idiot who thinks he's God's gift to offensive football and installs an offense that doesn't fit Allen's skills and demands that Allen be something he's not.

 

Which would leave out .....how many of the current league OC crop?

 

It's very strange to me that coaches who believe they should fit their offense or defense to the best skills of their best players seem more rare than the kind who run a specific scheme and demand that their players fit in or GTFO.  Arians and Brady are probably the current best example.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, JoshAllenReceipts said:

Wentz hasn't "regressed" actually, he's the same terrible QB he has always been. He no longer has RG Brandon Brooks and RT Lane Johnson (best Right Side OL in Football) to prop him up. Wentz has never been a good NFL QB, it was just being covered up by the Eagles supporting cast around him. Now, he is being badly exposed.

 

Wentz was a System QB in 2017, a byproduct of the O-Line and system.

 

Wentz 2017-19 was being carried by his Right Guard Brandon Brooks - the true MVP of the Eagles.

 

The coaching staff isn't doing him favors either.  How is a team 3rd in the NFL in YPC, and 28th in carries?  

[JoshAllenReceipts]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

The coaching staff isn't doing him favors either.  How is a team 3rd in the NFL in YPC, and 28th in carries?  

 

 

Because Wentz is really dumb and doesn't understand how to call audibles to beat a defense. He needs Pederson to babysit and hold his hand.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, JoshAllenReceipts said:

Wentz hasn't "regressed" actually, he's the same terrible QB he has always been. He no longer has RG Brandon Brooks and RT Lane Johnson (best Right Side OL in Football) to prop him up. Wentz has never been a good NFL QB, it was just being covered up by the Eagles supporting cast around him. Now, he is being badly exposed.

 

Wentz was a System QB in 2017, a byproduct of the O-Line and system.

 

Wentz 2017-19 was being carried by his Right Guard Brandon Brooks - the true MVP of the Eagles.

 

He has. I was never the biggest Wentz fan and I agree Brandon Brooks is an elite guard (although a guard can't carry an offense) but he played better in 2017 and 2018 than he has played for most of 2019 and all of 2020. He was an overrated Quarterback before. He is now a flat out bad Quarterback. 

[Big Turk]

6 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

The coaching staff isn't doing him favors either.  How is a team 3rd in the NFL in YPC, and 28th in carries?  

`

If I had to guess by watching last game, they run a lot of "give up" 3rd and long plays where they might get 10 or 12 yards but when its 3rd and 20, that doesn't mean much. But it saves Wentz from being teed off on or turning the ball over.

[K-9]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:22 AM, SCBills said:

I doubt it.  Allen has way more ability than Wentz, and seems much more driven.  

 

Although, if we lose Daboll, replace him with trash and then dismantle our OL, while providing PS skill position talent... then yes, it could be a problem.  ...but even then, we've seen Allen on a talent-less Offense as a rookie - It wasn't pretty, but he was still dangerous.  I don't see him ever becoming Wentz.

 

 

If we lose Daboll, Ken Dorsey is a shoe-in to take over and the transition will seamless.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

`

If I had to guess by watching last game, they run a lot of "give up" 3rd and long plays where they might get 10 or 12 yards but when its 3rd and 20, that doesn't mean much. But it saves Wentz from being teed off on or turning the ball over.

 

They do but Miles Sanders is really good. They should give him the ball more IMO. I'd absolutely love him on the Bills. I'd send them both our backs in exchange for Sanders.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, matter2003 said:

`

If I had to guess by watching last game, they run a lot of "give up" 3rd and long plays where they might get 10 or 12 yards but when its 3rd and 20, that doesn't mean much. But it saves Wentz from being teed off on or turning the ball over.

 

Our backs are averaging 1.7 yards before contact, Sanders and scott are closer to 3.  

 

Looking at the splits - they do run a bit in those situations... but 7 times all season isn't what I would consider a trend.  Honestly though, they're a pretty good running team all across splits.  Their first down passing splits are atrocious - 17 sacks in 170 drop backs, with 7 INTs. And 3rd down he's getting sacked at like a 17% clip across all 3rd down distances. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/2020_splits.htm

[Big Turk]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They do but Miles Sanders is really good. They should give him the ball more IMO. I'd absolutely love him on the Bills. I'd send them both our backs in exchange for Sanders.

 

Haha, I know, he is on my fantasy team and is reliable for 20 points most games.

[LeviF]

23 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

 

What if Pegula's money is really just wrapped up in a secret Madoff ponzi scheme we don't know about?

 

 

lol the Bills as a franchise may have been a joke for a long time but they don't quite approach the Wilpons' Mets.

[machine gun kelly]

There is no comparison.  The Eagle are an aging team, with serious cap issues.  Wentz unfortunately, has tried too hard to save the franchise, but has been beaten up along the way.  We have a franchise QB, and a team built over four years for long term success.  I’m not up for another we suck thread, as is dumb.  Maybe after the year, we can shape the conversation on the team and what needs to be done.

 

for now, I’m in.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Odd, when just John Brown is out and a linemen or two miss a game Allen's produciton drops. Do we blame Daboll or Allen for that? Philly is decimated with injuries and their WR group is bottom 10 in the league. Good TEs but still some injuries there too. 

Reich gets way to much credit on this board for being a player and has a long way to go to prove he is a successful HC. 

[78thealltimegreat]

25 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Odd, when just John Brown is out and a linemen or two miss a game Allen's produciton drops. Do we blame Daboll or Allen for that? Philly is decimated with injuries and their WR group is bottom 10 in the league. Good TEs but still some injuries there too. 

Reich gets way to much credit on this board for being a player and has a long way to go to prove he is a successful HC. 

The Eagles still have a pulse without Wentz...Bills turn into the Jets without Allen no comparison 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Odd, when just John Brown is out and a linemen or two miss a game Allen's produciton drops. Do we blame Daboll or Allen for that? Philly is decimated with injuries and their WR group is bottom 10 in the league. Good TEs but still some injuries there too. 

Reich gets way to much credit on this board for being a player and has a long way to go to prove he is a successful HC. 

 

I thought he played fine last week without brown.  Week 4 he was definitely affected... when the guy running browns route dropped a first down and gave it to the other team.  

 

Lines been shuffling all year and he's having by far his best season of his career.

[Nextmanup]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:20 AM, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

I don't know that it's linked to Daboll, per se, but sure, a regression is possible.

I was watching Pittsburgh vs. Baltimore last night, and noting how freaking horrible RG III is now.

 

Remember when he was the Patrick Mahomes of his day?  Remember when he walked on water, and people talked of the 10 year run Washington would enjoy under his Quarterbacking?  Times can change with a QB.

 

Goff is another.  Is he good or bad?  His up and down and up again.

 

We still don't know what Josh Allen is.  He is inconsistent game to game and quarter to quarter.

 

Part of an uphill learning curve that he'll overcome?  Just who he is?

 

Time will tell.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I don't know that it's linked to Daboll, per se, but sure, a regression is possible.

I was watching Pittsburgh vs. Baltimore last night, and noting how freaking horrible RG III is now.

 

Remember when he was the Patrick Mahomes of his day?  Remember when he walked on water, and people talked of the 10 year run Washington would enjoy under his Quarterbacking?  Times can change with a QB.

 

Goff is another.  Is he good or bad?  His up and down and up again.

 

We still don't know what Josh Allen is.  He is inconsistent game to game and quarter to quarter.

 

Part of an uphill learning curve that he'll overcome?  Just who he is?

 

Time will tell.

 

 

 

Goff is good but he goes as the system goes. Definition of a system QB and the McVay system is perfect for him. But you know what the McVay system is when you strip it back ignore all the eye candy and the bells and whistles? It is the Shanahan stretch zone. The LA Rams are 7-2 against everyone else and 0-2 against San Fran. Why? Because Kyle Shanahan grew up with that offense and nobody knows how to slow it down like him. Goff is a somewhere between the 9th and 15th best Quarterback in the league but I would really fear for him in other systems. When the scheme works Goff is good. When the scheme fails not sure he is talented enough to overcome.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

The Eagles still have a pulse without Wentz...Bills turn into the Jets without Allen no comparison 

I think that is an indictment of Barkley not Wentz

51 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I thought he played fine last week without brown.  Week 4 he was definitely affected... when the guy running browns route dropped a first down and gave it to the other team.  

 

Lines been shuffling all year and he's having by far his best season of his career.

He played well without Brown but the numbers are lower without him. 

My only point is that Wentz's production needs to be taken into context of the players around him

That said, truly great QBs like Wilson, Brady, Rodgers elevate the guys around them. I think Allen does to some degree as well and he may even be on the same level as those three now or very soon

[Punching Bag]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Which would leave out .....how many of the current league OC crop?

 

It's very strange to me that coaches who believe they should fit their offense or defense to the best skills of their best players seem more rare than the kind who run a specific scheme and demand that their players fit in or GTFO.  Arians and Brady are probably the current best example.

 

That is why I liked Chan Gailey.  He took a cerebral gunslinger (seems contradiction) QB, a WR who did not run precise routes but was able to be at certain points on routes if you do all the calculations he does instinctively in your head and a scat back RB whose best running was behind DL and made them effective.  There was not enough talent on team to do enough to make them playoff teams but enough to frustrate some players and teams badly.

[NoSaint]

On 12/2/2020 at 10:22 AM, SCBills said:

I doubt it.  Allen has way more ability than Wentz, and seems much more driven.  

 

Although, if we lose Daboll, replace him with trash and then dismantle our OL, while providing PS skill position talent... then yes, it could be a problem.  ...but even then, we've seen Allen on a talent-less Offense as a rookie - It wasn't pretty, but he was still dangerous.  I don't see him ever becoming Wentz.

 

 

no one ever sees these good 2nd-3rd year qbs becoming “meh” vets. But they end up with depleted coaching staffs and diminished rosters and teams quickly learn whether they can carry the load or if they were being carried 

 

I like his odds but it wouldn’t be unheard of to see bad habits drift back in when the situation is less optimal 

[KRT88]

On 12/2/2020 at 11:20 AM, matter2003 said:

Watching Wentz looking absolutely clueless this year and badly regressing makes me really wonder...how much was Reich responsible for his successes? It seems like he started downhill once Reich left and this year he has hit rock bottom...he may no longer be a starting caliber QB in this league.

 

And that is what I worry about with Allen a little bit...Daboll has been instrumental to his success and maturation into a star for us...how much would Allen regress(if at all) if Daboll leaves for a HC coaching job this offseason.  There are expected to be a lot of opening, more so than any other year in recent memory perhaps, and Daboll has been a hot name for a year or two now.

 

Based on what I have seen with this current management structure, I say with relative certainty, McDermont and  Bean have a plan in place if Daboll leaves, plus a plan if Dan Morgan or Joe Scheon are hired by someone as GM's.  These guys seem far too organized to be taken back by something that seems so predictable. 

[frostbitmic]

Only if we replace Daboll with Gase.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

22 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Only if we replace Daboll with Gase.

 

Avert, avert, avert

@frostbitmic do you take pleasure in evoking nauseating nightmares?

[GreggTX]

No. Daboll is good, but he's not the only good OC out there. On the other hand, a bad OC affects the whole offense.

[Inigo Montoya]

I think Ken Dorsey should definitely be in the running if Daboll leaves but don't see that he has had any play calling experience (I looked at his Wikipedia page).  He has been a QB coach twice, here and with Cam Newton in Carolina.  There are probably going to be 6-8 head coaching changes this year and that means a lot of experienced candidates with OC and HC experience out there looking for a paycheck soon.  There might be someone who would be a good OC for us who was just stuck in a bad situation.

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Inigo Montoya

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

I think Ken Dorsey should definitely be in the running if Daboll leaves but don't see that he has had any play calling experience (I looked at his Wikipedia page).  He has been a QB coach twice, here and with Cam Newton in Carolina.  There are probably going to be 6-8 head coaching changes this year and that means a lot of experienced candidates with OC and HC experience out there looking for a paycheck soon.  There might be someone who would be a good OC for us who was just stuck in a bad situation.

 

He has very little experience to become a OC.  He does not even have college coaching experience.

He was not even known on given starting QBs advice like Frank Reich and Alex Van Pelt were; Kelly said in 1994 he wasn't even smartest QB on roster with him getting advice from both of them.

The Steelers developed several OCs by rotating them thru multiple offense positions and he has done next to nothing outside QB position.

OCs need to watch film of upcoming opponents, develop game plans and do evaluations of players for front office.

IMO he is not ready to step up as OC for a HC with a defensive background.