Bills announce no fans for 1st 2 home games

[Nextmanup]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You accidentally bring up a good side point.

 

Why should the NFL be the only professional sports league to have fans?

 

NBA, NHL, and MLS are all in a bubble. No fans at games. Heck, no visiting friends and family between games!

MLB is playing out and about, but no fans at games.

 

Why do folks think the NFL is so special that we should all be at those games?

I would suggest the answer is that this board is crawling with Trump voters who likely believe covid is some type of hoax to begin with, or similar.

 

It's not perceived as a threat, so the discussion moves forward regarding how to return to normal as quickly as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

14 minutes ago, noacls said:

Because it does not fit your narrative.  Whatever dude. Lol

 

Who has it under better control?

 

[nucci]

35 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

You're going to get a faux fan experience at home watching on TV too.

 

Have you watched a baseball game, soccer game, or NHL playoff game lately?

 

Team sports with no crowd just doesn't work, at least for me.

 

They pipe in fake cheering when a team scores, etc., but it's really weird.

 

The NFL is going to be "off" and "wrong" IMO until the virus is gone, fans are packed in stadiums again, and cheering like crazy for the home team.

 

It's going to take time.

 

 

I've really enjoyed the NHL playoffs. Great hockey

[716er]

According to Sal C, at least in Miami fan noise will still be pumped into the stadium even though they allow a % of fans.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

30 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Who has it under better control?

 

Its all relative. 

 

 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

42 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

You're going to get a faux fan experience at home watching on TV too.

 

Have you watched a baseball game, soccer game, or NHL playoff game lately?

 

Team sports with no crowd just doesn't work, at least for me.

 

They pipe in fake cheering when a team scores, etc., but it's really weird.

 

The NFL is going to be "off" and "wrong" IMO until the virus is gone, fans are packed in stadiums again, and cheering like crazy for the home team.

 

It's going to take time.

 

 

 

I've watched a lot of NHL playoffs games and am really enjoying it. It would be better with real fans of course, but as that's not an option I'm ok with fake fan noise. 

 

I would prefer no fans at all and fake fan noise over a stadium at 15% capacity with no fake fan noise. Just my 2c

[Jauronimo]

16 minutes ago, nucci said:

I've really enjoyed the NHL playoffs. Great hockey

Yup.  I haven't noticed the lack of crowd noise in NBA or NHL games since the game play has been no less intense.  What I have noticed is that we can actually hear the on ice communication which is kind of interesting.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Is that 1 infection leads to cluster of 30-50 over a period of hours, or over the course of the infection (several days)? Is that rate of transmission similar in outdoor settings as it is indoors?  We may not have a complete idea of how well the virus spreads in outdoor settings (I think that is what your saying-I don't completely understand what you are trying to convey), we do at least know that the virus does not spread nearly as well.   

 

It varies... there are clusters (I believe Eden NY 38 person cluster is one of them) where it's believed to be a single exposure over a course of hours

There have been other clusters of 20-50 linked to a single exposure event

In other cases, a cluster of cases results over the course of the infection, as with this cluster from Syracuse:

https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2020/07/no-masks-or-distancing-1-case-spread-through-3-parties-infecting-16-in-onondaga-county.html

 

The "outdoor vs. indoor" question as you may know is vexing - in general, outdoor transmission is considered much lower risk (tables 6' apart outdoor dining vs indoor dining), but when people are spending hours outdoors in close proximity as in a crowded pool, or a relatively crowded backyard at a party then yes, there are clusters.  Here's one near me:

 

The initial cluster was 24 people, from a single OUTDOOR event.  At the time of this chart it was up to 84 (and counting)

 

And of course, hours in close proximity yelling singing and shouting amplify effects - as with the Atalanta-Valencia Champions League Soccer match that is felt to have accelerated covid-19 spread in Bergamo IT.  Cases like that are a reason why public health officials are so chary of sporting events, especially sporting events with a passionate fan base that will be shouting and yelling all game long.

I"m not sure I've addressed your questions?  The point I'm trying to make is that when one is seeing infections at the rate of 50 per day they can quickly snowball if they exceed the ability of a public health department to test-trace-isolate.

 

Quote

Yes, that is how that works....

 

 

 

I'm not quite sure what the point is here?  With the benefit of hindsight, we now know that there were approximately 10x as many people in NYC infected during its surge, but there was basically NO testing.....NYC was blind and as an epidemiologist I follow says, "you can not track what you can not see".   They were overwhelmed...only the very sickest people were being hospitalized, nurses and doctors were falling ill, the drugs and treatments that are known to be helpful now, were not known to be helpful then and in fact there were understandable concerns about giving one of them (dexamethasone).  It was a mess. 

I'm not gonna get into a Florida vs NYC big thing here, but I will say I struggle to understand the mindset of someone who apparently believes the response of an overwhelmed area to a novel disease vs. the response of another area to later spread, under conditions where better treatment protocols have been worked out and testing is widely available, is somehow cause for self-congratulations? (I'm talking about the tweet you copied).  I mean, Yes, fewer people are dying now...they are literally living based on the learnings gained in NYC and N Italy and UK

[RobbRiddick]

They should run a competition where ONE Bills fan gets to sit and watch on his/her own.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, RobbRiddick said:

They should run a competition where ONE Bills fan gets to sit and watch on his/her own.

 

So right now, I believe the NYS limit on gatherings is 50?

 

How many gates are there?  Have each gate admit 50 masked people in a socially distanced way, to be seated in a distanced way.  Bring your own food and bev.  Wear a leg urinal or adult diapers.  Or heck, 50 people per section, if a section is big enough to space them some 15 feet apart - stagger the entrance times.

 

Who'd do it?

[RiotAct]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So right now, I believe the NYS limit on gatherings is 50?

 

How many gates are there?  Have each gate admit 50 masked people in a socially distanced way, to be seated in a distanced way.  Bring your own food and bev.  Wear a leg urinal or adult diapers.  Or heck, 50 people per section, if a section is big enough to space them some 15 feet apart - stagger the entrance times.

 

Who'd do it?

I’d totally do it if I could score tickets.

 

Minus the adult diaper / leg urinal thing... plenty of room in the bathrooms and not everyone goes all at once.  Could block off every other urinal and stall.  Besides, what did they do at the protests when nature called? ?

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It varies... there are clusters (I believe Eden NY 38 person cluster is one of them) where it's believed to be a single exposure over a course of hours

There have been other clusters of 20-50 linked to a single exposure event

In other cases, a cluster of cases results over the course of the infection, as with this cluster from Syracuse:

https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2020/07/no-masks-or-distancing-1-case-spread-through-3-parties-infecting-16-in-onondaga-county.html

 

The "outdoor vs. indoor" question as you may know is vexing - in general, outdoor transmission is considered much lower risk (tables 6' apart outdoor dining vs indoor dining), but when people are spending hours outdoors in close proximity as in a crowded pool, or a relatively crowded backyard at a party then yes, there are clusters.  Here's one near me:

 

The initial cluster was 24 people, from a single OUTDOOR event.  At the time of this chart it was up to 84 (and counting)

 

And of course, hours in close proximity yelling singing and shouting amplify effects - as with the Atalanta-Valencia Champions League Soccer match that is felt to have accelerated covid-19 spread in Bergamo IT.  Cases like that are a reason why public health officials are so chary of sporting events, especially sporting events with a passionate fan base that will be shouting and yelling all game long.

I"m not sure I've addressed your questions?  The point I'm trying to make is that when one is seeing infections at the rate of 50 per day they can quickly snowball if they exceed the ability of a public health department to test-trace-isolate.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what the point is here?  With the benefit of hindsight, we now know that there were approximately 10x as many people in NYC infected during its surge, but there was basically NO testing.....NYC was blind and as an epidemiologist I follow says, "you can not track what you can not see".   They were overwhelmed...only the very sickest people were being hospitalized, nurses and doctors were falling ill, the drugs and treatments that are known to be helpful now, were not known to be helpful then and in fact there were understandable concerns about giving one of them (dexamethasone).  It was a mess. 

I'm not gonna get into a Florida vs NYC big thing here, but I will say I struggle to understand the mindset of someone who apparently believes the response of an overwhelmed area to a novel disease vs. the response of another area to later spread, under conditions where better treatment protocols have been worked out and testing is widely available, is somehow cause for self-congratulations? (I'm talking about the tweet you copied).  I mean, Yes, fewer people are dying now...they are literally living based on the learnings gained in NYC and N Italy and UK

 

I don't know how to break up the quotes like you did above, so forgive me if this comes off as sloppy. 

 

1. The clusters thing--that makes pretty good sense. I guess, incorrectly, I took you point to be that a single infected person could infect upwards of 30 people during a single exposure event. In other words, I thought you were saying that if I was infected and went to a restaurant, I would cause 30 other people at the restaurant to get infected.  It seems, instead, that you are saying that 1 person may expose another, who in turn exposes another, and on and on, and the tracing cannot identify every incidence of exposure until it reaches 30/35 people. That makes sense. 

 

2. Adams County graph - Is "Gathering 1" an outdoor event? I clicked the link, but it doesn't provide any other context. I see that you are saying it was, but what sort of outdoor event was it? Was it the sort where masks are required, such as a football game, or is it a barbecue or something like that? 

 

3. My only point with that graph is to demonstrate a bit of the hypocrisy going on in these discussions. The purpose of the shut down was to "slow the spread." We heard it over and over. We wanted to go from being a red curve to being a blue curve. I think it is wildly unfair the way Florida is criticized for successfully moving the state to a blue curve situation. 

 

 

[noacls]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Who has it under better control?

 

And still not nearly the amount of deaths in the northeast

[DrDawkinstein]

25 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

3. My only point with that graph is to demonstrate a bit of the hypocrisy going on in these discussions. The purpose of the shut down was to "slow the spread." We heard it over and over. We wanted to go from being a red curve to being a blue curve. I think it is wildly unfair the way Florida is criticized for successfully moving the state to a blue curve situation. 

 

 

 

Do you think because two pictures of two different graphs look alike they represent the same exact thing? Do you trust Florida's reporting, even with all the known issues and controversy?

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, noacls said:

And still not nearly the amount of deaths in the northeast

Do you not understand that the densely populated northeast was hit first without the benefit of seeing this coming like the rest of the country?

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, noacls said:

And still not nearly the amount of deaths in the northeast

 

Florida's currently working hard to catch up tho!

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Do you think because two pictures of two different graphs look alike they represent the same exact thing? Do you trust Florida's reporting, even with all the known issues and controversy?

Really? Conspiracy theories? Is that where we are with all this.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Quote

I don't know how to break up the quotes like you did above, so forgive me if this comes off as sloppy. 

 

Put the cursor after a line of text in the quote and hit enter 2x

Quote

1. The clusters thing--that makes pretty good sense. I guess, incorrectly, I took you point to be that a single infected person could infect upwards of 30 people during a single exposure event. In other words, I thought you were saying that if I was infected and went to a restaurant, I would cause 30 other people at the restaurant to get infected.  It seems, instead, that you are saying that 1 person may expose another, who in turn exposes another, and on and on, and the tracing cannot identify every incidence of exposure until it reaches 30/35 people. That makes sense. 

 

I was saying both happen!  The overall attack rate (how many of the people who are exposed to an infected person get infected) seems to vary between 12-40% when not masked.

I think the Eden cluster is said to have been a single event.  The Adams County cluster was a single event that infected 18 people initially.  The spread is usually caused because perhaps it's a day or two until the person becomes symptomatic then, say, 48 hrs for them to get tested and return results if all goes well...then contact tracing goes to work and their contacts quarantine and/or get tested.  And by then the contacts have gone on to have other contacts, who have gone on to have other contacts....that's how 18 people become a cluster of 84 cases across 3 states

 

Quote

2. Adams County graph - Is "Gathering 1" an outdoor event? I clicked the link, but it doesn't provide any other context. I see that you are saying it was, but what sort of outdoor event was it? Was it the sort where masks are required, such as a football game, or is it a barbecue or something like that? 

 

It's in the comments (and confirmed because I know someone who was a contact of a secondary infection).  Masks were not required because this is Missouri where we're not going to require people to wear a "dang mask", it's a "personal choice".  It was a private event, outdoors - no further details available but my understanding is basically a BBQ type thing

 

Quote

3. My only point with that graph is to demonstrate a bit of the hypocrisy going on in these discussions. The purpose of the shut down was to "slow the spread." We heard it over and over. We wanted to go from being a red curve to being a blue curve. I think it is wildly unfair the way Florida is criticized for successfully moving the state to a blue curve situation.

 

I am 100% be down with let's not do the finger-pointy shite, but I do feel that Florida has had infections and outbreaks (and is still having them, especially in the rural parts of the state) that they need not have had with better public health policy.   Covidactnow gives Miami-Dade county as at 91% of ICU headroom and half-a-dozen counties at 100%.  Overall, it looks as though it's moving in the right direction, but given the learnings about asymptomatic spread and masks etc. it doesn't seem like it had to happen that way.

And based upon goings-on in MO - if it's anything like here, I don't think we have a clue what the outbreak looks like.  Too many people with relevant symptoms are simply not getting tested, nor are their contacts being traced - when tests take 7-10 or even 14 days for results, contact tracing is impossible.

 

[Doc Brown]

5 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Saw something the other day about how it may not be worth it for NFL teams to have 10k in the stadium. The cost of opening the stadium, having staff, cleaning ect they may only make a few hundred thousand bucks before taxes. In some parts of the country, that simply might not be worth it 

They need to jack up the ticket prices then.  Never let a tragedy go to waste.

[DrDawkinstein]

18 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Really? Conspiracy theories? Is that where we are with all this.

 

No, there's a 150 page thread on PPP about conspiracy theories. We'll leave that nonsense there.

 

I'm talking about a well documented case of a COVID data scientist filing a whistle-blowers complaint and being fired for refusing to manipulate data.

 

 

Regardless, that isnt the main point.

 

The main point is that while those two pictures look nice next to each other, and are super convenient because it helps take all the critical thinking out of it, they don't represent what that tweet suggests it does.

 

Are you arguing that Florida implemented and stuck to safety protocols through the entire Spring and Summer? Because we all know they did the exact opposite.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

No, there's a 150 page thread on PPP about conspiracy theories. We'll leave that nonsense there.

 

I'm talking about a well documented case of a COVID data scientist filing a whistle-blowers complaint and being fired for refusing to manipulate data.

 

 

Regardless, that isnt the main point.

 

The main point is that while those two pictures look nice next to each other, and are super convenient because it helps take all the critical thinking out of it, they don't represent what that tweet suggests it does.

 

Are you arguing that Florida implemented and stuck to safety protocols through the entire Spring and Summer? Because we all know they did the exact opposite.

Yes, rather than knee-jerk shut the entire state down, Florida implemented sensible, target safety measures that successfully stopped the rapid spread of the virus and allowed it to better manage infections. 

[billsfan89]

20 hours ago, Sig1Hunter said:

Seems like a nice change from the previous stance which leaves the door open for fans at future games. Good call.

 

I am an extra cautious person and I think this was the right call. There likely won't be fans at games this year but why force the decision when you don't have to at the moment?

[Mr Info]

27 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Yes, rather than knee-jerk shut the entire state down, Florida implemented sensible, target safety measures that successfully stopped the rapid spread of the virus and allowed it to better manage infections. 

I have tried not to comment on these type of discussions but will add something here.

 

FL is #5 in deaths in the USA. At current rates it may be #3 sometime in Sept.

That may not represent ‘sensible, target safety measures’. I may not agree with the complete lockdowns either. But could FL have saved a few thousand lives by requiring masks rather than advising to wear them? Is it really that much of an imposition to wear a mask when not eating, exercising, etc.?

Edited August 26, 2020 by Mr Info

[DrDawkinstein]

32 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Yes, rather than knee-jerk shut the entire state down, Florida implemented sensible, target safety measures that successfully stopped the rapid spread of the virus and allowed it to better manage infections. 

 

They implemented nothing.

 

They had Spring Break as if it was any other year, were late to finally close, and then quickly re-opened before anyone else. Now they're seeing a surge, and just broke the nation-wide record for most cases reported in a day (previously held by NY).

 

The best thing they have going for them is all those Spring Breakers went home and spread the virus in other states instead of just keeping it in Florida. Great win.

[LB3]

35 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I'm talking about a well documented case of a COVID data scientist filing a whistle-blowers complaint and being fired for refusing to manipulate data.

The reasons for her firing vary. Let's also be fair here. She might not be demon sperm crazy, but I'd say she's firmly in the "Danger Zone".

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

They implemented nothing.

 

They had Spring Break as if it was any other year, were late to finally close, and then quickly re-opened before anyone else. Now they're seeing a surge, and just broke the nation-wide record for most cases reported in a day (previously held by NY).

 

The best thing they have going for them is all those Spring Breakers went home and spread the virus in other states instead of just keeping it in Florida. Great win.

 

This is the type of hyperbole that has caused this whole thing to get so out of control.  To be honest, I don't really care about total infections. I care about deaths. And I say with full consideration that there is ample anecdotal evidence of significant complications aside from just deaths. I don't use the term "anecdotal" in a pejorative way; rather, my point is there is no indication that those non-death complications are so frequent that they present a serious concern to the general public at large.  Now, here is why I don't care about the total number of cases: Florida's COVID positive population is significantly younger than was New York's. Hence, why there are so fewer deaths--sure, better treatments and more hospital beds is also a factor.  Still, Florida understood that protecting vulnerable populations was always more important, and which was a step it never ceased.  The only precautions are not just wearing masks or complete shut downs.  Are they seeing a surge? Sure. But that surge does not present the significant danger (that we were caused to be so afraid of), because the sick population is so much younger and because the surge was spread out over a longer period of time, which was always the goal--to slow the spread. 

22 minutes ago, Mr Info said:

I have tried not to comment on these type of discussions but will add something here.

 

FL is #5 in deaths in the USA. At current rates it may be #3 sometime in Sept.

That may not represent ‘sensible, target safety measures’. I may not agree with the complete lockdowns either. But could FL have saved a few thousand lives by requiring masks rather than advising to wear them? Is it really that much of an imposition to wear a mask when not eating, exercising, etc.?

 

I mean I wear masks, but I am also just libertarian enough that I think seat belt laws are garbage.  

[RiotAct]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/state-and-regional/impact-of-local-covid-19-cases-on-bills-fans-and-issues-with-airports-and-gyms/article_a50fdfd6-e7b1-11ea-9e14-c3a220fb18bf.amp.html

 

 

Despite continued discussion and work on a "return-to-the-stadium plan," and hopes that the stadium will be opened to fans in October, Poloncarz said no plan can move forward while the region's confirmed case numbers remain consistently above the state average.

"If the numbers don't go down and we're still the highest part of New York State, I'm doubtful that we're going to see games in October be allowed," he said. "It's in everyone's hands. If you like going to a Bills game, be smart out there. Wear a mask. Try to safely socially distance when you can."

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

This is the type of hyperbole that has caused this whole thing to get so out of control.  To be honest, I don't really care about total infections. I care about deaths. And I say with full consideration that there is ample anecdotal evidence of significant complications aside from just deaths. I don't use the term "anecdotal" in a pejorative way; rather, my point is there is no indication that those non-death complications are so frequent that they present a serious concern to the general public at large.  Now, here is why I don't care about the total number of cases: Florida's COVID positive population is significantly younger than was New York's. Hence, why there are so fewer deaths--sure, better treatments and more hospital beds is also a factor.  Still, Florida understood that protecting vulnerable populations was always more important, and which was a step it never ceased.  The only precautions are not just wearing masks or complete shut downs.  Are they seeing a surge? Sure. But that surge does not present the significant danger (that we were caused to be so afraid of), because the sick population is so much younger and because the surge was spread out over a longer period of time, which was always the goal--to slow the spread. 

 

I mean I wear masks, but I am also just libertarian enough that I think seat belt laws are garbage.  

 

Do you really believe that non-lethal complications of COVID on symptomatic patients are so rare that you can describe them as "anecdotal"?  I'm asking seriously.  In medicine, events must but of the utmost rarity to be described as anecdotal.

 

Also, specifically what did Florida, uniquely, do  (and never cease doing) to  "protect its most vulnerable population"?

 

Finally, going from 70 deaths a day and 2-5% positive in the beginning of June to over 11,000 cases a day a month later and up to 15,000+ per day soon after with by the end of July,  4 straight days of record death tolls peaking at over 250 a day (it would go higher in a week) and a positive rate of 20% is how you would  accurately described as "slowing the spread" over a "long period of time"?

Edited August 27, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[Buffalo Bear]

On 8/25/2020 at 4:22 PM, mushypeaches said:

 

I think there's about 175,000 reasons not to allow fans into games.  But don't let that stand in the way of reason and prudence

Search "USA Total Death Rate" . . . it's the same as every other year.  We have another "swine flu" on our hands but blown way out of proportion for political reasons and so big pharma can try to get you on that yearly Netflix subscription vaccine regiment.  Stop being a ######.

[Locomark]

On 8/25/2020 at 9:36 PM, Green Lightning said:

 Honestly not everybody's in idiot. I think generally people respect rules and regulations and in a smaller group with more supervision would be fine.  I think we need to expect the best from people.  I honestly expect they would understand that they represent all of us and behave accordingly. 

Lets assume everyone going to the game is drinking or at least pretty rowdy. I know that I go to the game pretty intense and loud but also to drink before hand. So let’s assume behaviors of people going to the game are more similar to those behaviors of people in bars.  Currently most major COVID outbreaks are coming from college campuses bars. Alabama, Notre Dame, Ohio State all opened to immediate COVID outbreaks due to bars and had to shut down the local bars. I think the smarter NFL owners fear the lack of ability to control the behavior of people outside and then inside the stadium when they have been drinking. Once those 12,000 people decide to get inside the stadium, say they decide to all gather on one side of the stadium and say “F the distancing.” Are 200 rental employees going to stop them ? No, they will get out of the way and watch and you will be on the nightly news minutes later. The Bills owners want to make sure they have seen all the variations on things that can go wrong before they just open the gates and hope for the best. I don’t blame them. I bet they are using the state as a crutch because it helps direct anger away from them. The Pegulas are smart. They know we have the potential for a long playoff filled season so why not get it done right. We will have fans later and if we don’t, it’s likely because the virus is back with a vengeance and then there won’t be a full season and likely no one will have fans and all sorts of strange alternatives could shake out after a delay. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Locomark

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

22 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

I think the weather thing is overblown. Any team in northeast is used to cold, rain, wind, and snow. Even teams who play in warm weather cities or in domes have many players on the roster who played in the cold in college like Penn St for example. Weather can help as do the fans but ultimately it comes down to how the Bills play on the field. I remember during the Super Bowl years the Bills rarely lost at home. They were just as dominant as the Chiefs are in Arrowhead and Seahawks have been at Century Link.

Say the NFL PLAYOFFS were to go into a Bubble Format.

 

and teams like Green Bay, Steelers or Buffalo went from January playoff games against warm climate teams and instead having to play them in Vegas/Atlanta/Houston.

 

I think that makes a much bigger difference than fans yelling.

[BullBuchanan]

19 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Yes, rather than knee-jerk shut the entire state down, Florida implemented sensible, target safety measures that successfully stopped the rapid spread of the virus and allowed it to better manage infections. 

By every measure, Florida has been a disaster. Comparing it to NY leaves out the most important details that NY was essentially Ground Zero in the US and they had to fight the worst part of the virus blind, learning as they went. They had to deal with PPE shortages and an Executive Branch pushing false narratives and holding a hand behind their back. Florida not only had months of lead time to prepare, but they had a playbook that they could use, and should have known far more of the science than they did. The fact that the virus was less potent and fatal by the time it reached the south, should be absolutely no complement to them at all. It was dumb luck that not as many people have gotten seriously sick/died in Florida and Texas, but the results in both states are far, far worse than they ever should have been.

Edited August 27, 2020 by BullBuchanan

[Green Lightning]

4 hours ago, Locomark said:

Lets assume everyone going to the game is drinking or at least pretty rowdy. I know that I go to the game pretty intense and loud but also to drink before hand. So let’s assume behaviors of people going to the game are more similar to those behaviors of people in bars.  Currently most major COVID outbreaks are coming from college campuses bars. Alabama, Notre Dame, Ohio State all opened to immediate COVID outbreaks due to bars and had to shut down the local bars. I think the smarter NFL owners fear the lack of ability to control the behavior of people outside and then inside the stadium when they have been drinking. Once those 12,000 people decide to get inside the stadium, say they decide to all gather on one side of the stadium and say “F the distancing.” Are 200 rental employees going to stop them ? No, they will get out of the way and watch and you will be on the nightly news minutes later. The Bills owners want to make sure they have seen all the variations on things that can go wrong before they just open the gates and hope for the best. I don’t blame them. I bet they are using the state as a crutch because it helps direct anger away from them. The Pegulas are smart. They know we have the potential for a long playoff filled season so why not get it done right. We will have fans later and if we don’t, it’s likely because the virus is back with a vengeance and then there won’t be a full season and likely no one will have fans and all sorts of strange alternatives could shake out after a delay. 

We'll see after we play other teams stadiums that have fans. I think instead of throwing up our hands and dismissing this, why not limit other factors such as alcohol, etc. Other teams will have fans, let's see how they handle it. I think it will go just fine.

On 8/26/2020 at 8:35 AM, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

Many.  Many wins and many loses.  Crowd screamed just as loud for both.

Fan noise at crucial parts of games is impactful. Maybe we've been to different games.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, Buffalo Bear said:

Search "USA Total Death Rate" . . . it's the same as every other year.

 

It's not, actually. 

Here's a piece by that known "liberal rag" Marketwatch <-that's sarcasm

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-excess-deaths-tally-in-the-us-is-204691-in-7-months-so-covid-19-deaths-might-be-undercounted-2020-08-13

Stat news piece

https://www.statnews.com/2020/08/03/measuring-excess-mortality-gives-clearer-picture-pandemics-true-burden/

media bias e v a l of statnews: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/stat-news/

CDC data:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

 

Now, Where did you get the notion that the USA total deaths are the same as every other year?

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

20 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

They need to jack up the ticket prices then.  Never let a tragedy go to waste.

Supply and Demand.....they will be able to.....  This is just going to be a weird season, some will see it as a "competitive disadvantage" for some teams to have 13,000 fans and others to have 0.  The NFL is going to generate every dollar they can in revenue even if there is some perceived imbalance.   You can pump in 80db or something anyway.   Not sure how much 13,000 fans can really influence anything one way or the other.  

[Punching Bag]

On 8/25/2020 at 9:21 PM, Green Lightning said:

I just had dinner at a restaurant,  inside, no masks at the tables six feet apart, that’s okay. I can go the the gym soon, use the same equipment everybody else is touching, that's okay. Soon I can  even take a group exercise class in a room with others six feet apart but breathing hard, that's okay. I can protest with hundreds of others, that's okay. But I can't sit outside, in a mask, with 13,000 people in a stadium built for 70,000?  

 

You can jump off a cliff with other lemmings if you want.

 

Can is just what is possible to do not what you should do or what is smart to do.

[Green Lightning]

10 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

You can jump off a cliff with other lemmings if you want.

 

Can is just what is possible to do not what you should do or what is smart to do.

Well that made zero sense. Maybe try again when whatever you were taking wears off.

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

On 8/27/2020 at 11:08 AM, Green Lightning said:

We'll see after we play other teams stadiums that have fans. I think instead of throwing up our hands and dismissing this, why not limit other factors such as alcohol, etc. Other teams will have fans, let's see how they handle it. I think it will go just fine.

Fan noise at crucial parts of games is impactful. Maybe we've been to different games.

When there are 79 thousand fans screaming their butts off...and Brady still drives the Patriots to a game winning drive...what does that show you?

[Nextmanup]

2 minutes ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

When there are 79 thousand fans screaming their butts off...and Brady still drives the Patriots to a game winning drive...what does that show you?

I do think fan noise can aid the home team defense, and it can also buoy the spirits of the home team in all facets of the game to maybe deliver a bit more than normal because they are filled with emotion and energy stemming from the fanbase.  

 

How truly impactful are these factors?  It's hard to quantify, if not impossible, and I would suggest they are subtle.  

But they are also real.

 

 

[SCBills]

2,000 fans for Austin Peay vs Central Arkansas last night in Montgomery, Alabama... but we can’t have fans in September...