How do you judge a team's offensive line?

[BritBill]

I asked a question a couple of weeks ago about on what stat(s) do you judge how good a defense is.

 

Well, this time I'm asking how do you judge how good/bad an offensive line is? 

 

Do you go by sacks allowed? 1st downs achieved by rushing? Time the QB has in the pocket?

 

Open my eyes to your minds people. ?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I've always put the majority of sacks and pressure on the QB. Obviously there are times there is a truly bad OL group blocking for a QB but typically IMO it's on the QB to put the OL in the best position to protect both presnap and post snap. Offensive coordinator also has a role in putting OLs in the best position possible to protect the QB.

 

That said I tend to look at run blocking when analyzing offensive lines. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Doc Brown]

YPC and QB pressures.  Plus, I get input from my neighbor Terry.

[Pbomb]

Feel like you have to use your own judgement to determine. Don’t always know what the call was or what their job was. I feel the bills line is above average and has room/ needs to improve. Another year to gel together will help. Ford was inconsistent but should improve in year two, hopefully.

i recall the end of the patriots, ravens, and Texans games. In all three we had a chance to tie or win at the end and the oline had complete meltdowns allowing multiple people in pretty much untouched on multiple plays killing any chance for Allen to do anything 

[Fr. Jerk]

Take them to the bridge and see how much cool heavy stuff they can throw off it, ya dig?

[Thurman#1]

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/

 

They have probably the best stuff on this, stats-wise. Click on "Statistics" and then "Offensive Lines". Their pass stats have the same problems they all have ... some QBs keep plays alive longer, hold the ball longer, others get it out quickly, and there's no statistical way to take that out of it.

 

But their run stats are useful. Particularly comparing "Adjusted Line Yards" and "RB Yards." If RB yards are significantly higher than ALY, then you've got a good RB making his line look better than they are. If ALY is higher, your line is doing better than what is showing up in the standard stats. Second level yards is also helpful.

 

In the end, though, lines have to be judged in context.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/

 

They have probably the best stuff on this, stats-wise. Click on "Statistics" and then "Offensive Lines". Their pass stats have the same problems they all have ... some QBs keep plays alive longer, hold the ball longer, others get it out quickly, and there's no statistical way to take that out of it.

 

But their run stats are useful. Particularly comparing "Adjusted Line Yards" and "RB Yards." If RB yards are significantly higher than ALY, then you've got a good RB making his line look better than they are. If ALY is higher, your line is doing better than what is showing up in the standard stats. Second level yards is also helpful.

 

In the end, though, lines have to be judged in context.

 

Agreed. Run blocking is easier to make a statistical analysis of. Pass blocking, more often than not, comes down to the eye test. Because pass blocking for Tom Brady and pass blocking for Russell Wilson are two totally different beasts. A like for like numbers comparison on sacks and pressures will be a pretty blunt instrument.

[JetsFan20]

I personally think it’s a teams run game thats

the best indicator. All these advanced metrics on pass blocking efficiency/pressure rate are overstated. You can reduce pressure rate by throwing short/quick hitting passes. Also Texans and Seahawks always rate low in large part because Watson and Wilson are crazy athletes and can hold the ball longer than other QBs. 
 

Run blocking is typically easier than pass blocking. If a team can’t run block. If the line can’t run block it likely can’t do much of anything. 

[Shooter McGavin]

“By height.” - Ty Webb

[gjv001]

After watching ESPN, before every Bills draft selection, flash that Josh Allen was the third most pressured QB last year, I'm thinking we need to make some improvements to the Oline. Hopefully, a year under their belts together and new competition  helps to not have to see this flash in next years draft.

[DFT]

By their tattoos...

[Matt_In_NH]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

YPC and QB pressures.  Plus, I get input from my neighbor Terry.

 

Those don't necessarily tell the whole story.  If you have a terrible RB YCP may be down.  If you have a QB that holds onto the ball you can have a lot of pressures.  Its a good question and ultimately you have to dig deep and collect a lot of data to see if guys are getting beat off the ball vs 3 seconds later.  There are sites out there that grade OL but I think you may need to pay.

[BarleyNY]

3 hours ago, BritBill said:

I asked a question a couple of weeks ago about on what stat(s) do you judge how good a defense is.

 

Well, this time I'm asking how do you judge how good/bad an offensive line is? 

 

Do you go by sacks allowed? 1st downs achieved by rushing? Time the QB has in the pocket?

 

Open my eyes to your minds people. ?

Grading out OL is tough to do as a fan.  It requires grading out every player on every play.  It’s worth using sites that do that for you and then seeing if that matches what your eyes tell you on whatever limited snaps you do see.  Often it is easy to see when a player is terrible, but sometimes there are other factors.  For example, QBs have a huge impact on sacks and pressures.  Passing scheme too.  Gotta hold pass blocks a lot longer for a vertical game versus a WCO.   Stuff like that has to be considered. 

[hondo in seattle]

To me, it's all about the eye test.  Does the OL create holes on running plays?  Do they give their QB a clean pocket?  Are they able to push defenders back on short yardage plays?

 

While there are some stats that capture elements of these things, stats can be skewed by a number of factors independent of the ability of the OL (QB play, RB talent, play-calling).  

[y2zipper]

ESPN's pass block win rate metric for teams is a very good metric for pass protection that uses proximity of players and isolates pass blocking. They consider it a win when the pass blocking holds for 2.5 seconds or more.

[BuffaloBillies]

54 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

To me, it's all about the eye test.  Does the OL create holes on running plays?  Do they give their QB a clean pocket?  Are they able to push defenders back on short yardage plays?

 

While there are some stats that capture elements of these things, stats can be skewed by a number of factors independent of the ability of the OL (QB play, RB talent, play-calling).  

 

Yep, you can tell what kind of afternoon it's going to be after the first couple of offensive series. Are they able to push, or are they getting pushed back. Basically, are they winning the line of scrimmage or not.

[BeastMaster]

Well I think you can judge alot in terms of the run game and their ability to win at the line of scrimmage. Last years Oline left alot to be desired in that area for me.

 

Pass blocking is much harder to judge as others have said, but they did seem to have problems dealing with heavy blitz packages from my perspective. 

 

Overall...I saw the line as middling, and I wanted them to get better. There's some hope with continuity and possible improvement from Cody Ford, so that is the bright side.

 

The not so bright side is that if they can't show good improvement and Allen and Diggs don't develop a productive relationship, then we may have an unhappy receiver who will voice it in the media.

 

This is my biggest concern this upcoming season.  I really want to know the line is a non issue in such a big season for Josh Allen.

[4_kidd_4]

3 hours ago, Shooter McGavin said:

“By height.” - Ty Webb

 

Don’t sell yourself short Judge. You’re a tremendous slouch.

[yungmack]

3 hours ago, gjv001 said:

After watching ESPN, before every Bills draft selection, flash that Josh Allen was the third most pressured QB last year, I'm thinking we need to make some improvements to the Oline. Hopefully, a year under their belts together and new competition  helps to not have to see this flash in next years draft.

A lot of that is on Josh. Where is he ranked for time holding the ball? 

[wiskibreth]

It's very nuanced, that's for sure.  There's judgment of individual play, and how do they perform as a unit.  It's about knowing your assignments, and your teammates'

 and being able to make adjustments pre-snap and on the fly post-snap, reacting to stunts and crosses.  You need to watch the individual on each and every play to know if he's looking lost, or being dominated by opponents.  Does he commit allot of penalties.  Holding is a sign of laziness, desperation and bad technique, false starts are all mental, focus and concentration.  Some fans have unrealistic expectations regarding offensive lines.  With the level of athleticism on D-lines these days, nobody can block anyone forever.  3 seconds in pass pro is a long time.  Keep your opponent off your QB for 3 seconds and your good.  Run game is more obvious.  Do you open holes, or are you stoned?  Like so many others have said, as fans you know it when you see it, stats cant really tell the story.

[Don Otreply]

For me, if an offense is maintaining the performance edge throughout a game or games, it’s says that the O line is performing well in said game or games,  in which the offense has the needed time to execute the overall scheme. Various stats can be looked at that convey the same overall picture. I try not to go full on football nerd with stats in which they don’t show context. 
 

Go Bills!!!

[Matt_In_NH]

40 minutes ago, yungmack said:

A lot of that is on Josh. Where is he ranked for time holding the ball? 

Exactly.   Pass Pro was not that bad.  I wouldn't say it was great either, probably average.

[Orlando Tim]

3 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

Grading out OL is tough to do as a fan.  It requires grading out every player on every play.  It’s worth using sites that do that for you and then seeing if that matches what your eyes tell you on whatever limited snaps you do see.  Often it is easy to see when a player is terrible, but sometimes there are other factors.  For example, QBs have a huge impact on sacks and pressures.  Passing scheme too.  Gotta hold pass blocks a lot longer for a vertical game versus a WCO.   Stuff like that has to be considered. 

Oline play is much easier to determine when it is bad then delineate between the best and near best. I also think 5 average blockers is better than 3 studs and 2 barely professional players on the line. Lastly good blocking tight ends make tackles job much easier, so the eye test is key to me.

[BarleyNY]

36 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

Oline play is much easier to determine when it is bad then delineate between the best and near best. I also think 5 average blockers is better than 3 studs and 2 barely professional players on the line. Lastly good blocking tight ends make tackles job much easier, so the eye test is key to me.

I wholeheartedly agree with all of that.

[billsfan89]

There are advanced metrics but I think as a fan you have to judge it based off the eye test. How much pressure does the O-line give up? How big are the running lanes? Things like that you can watch over the course of games and really give yourself a good definition of just how well an offensive line plays. Last season I thought the O-line was a mid-level NFL O-line. Ford was the weak link until Ty went down and Ford played well. 

 

The Bills O-line last year played stronger as the year went on for the most part. All 5 starters not having played with each other before 2019 I think was a factor in the line not playing that well at times. Hopefully with a year having played with each other and some growth from Ford the O-line can become a top 10 unit.

[Big Blitz]

The Center.  Only other position to touch the football as much as the QB.  Most underrated position in all of sports.  

 

You can't have a good oline without a good center.  The ability to be cerebral, solid in run and pass pro is vital for the position and when you have that guy or he's there in the draft you take him.....if this position is not above average to great you dont have a great oline. 

 

No one knows this better than the Saints and they picked one at 26.  The impact Unger had on them was immense.  They still had good talent after he retired but I don't think they were the same.  

 

Morse had that kind impact for us as well.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

The Center.  Only other position to touch the football as much as the QB.  Most underrated position in all of sports.  

 

You can't have a good oline without a good center.  The ability to be cerebral, solid in run and pass pro is vital for the position and when you have that guy or he's there in the draft you take him.....if this position is not above average to great you dont have a great oline. 

 

No one knows this better than the Saints and they picked one at 26.  The impact Unger had on them was immense.  They still had good talent after he retired but I don't think they were the same.  

 

Morse had that kind impact for us as well.  

 

 

 

And the moment Seattle traded Unger to the Saints was the moment their dynasty chances ended. Genuinely the worst trade in my time watching the NFL. 

 

I have always been a "give me a left tackle first" guy and I still am, but the Bills 2018 season really gave me a new appreciation for the center position. Because when you don't have one it gets ugly, and fast. 

[BobbyC81]

On 4/28/2020 at 2:31 AM, Doc Brown said:

YPC and QB pressures.  Plus, I get input from my neighbor Terry.

Pegula?  Bradshaw?

[ny33]

9 hours ago, ColeB said:

Pegula?  Bradshaw?

Crews

[machine gun kelly]

The hard part with evaluating an O Line as many good opinions, like sacks, pressures, success in the run, but it’s hard to assess is it 5e O Line, or does Josh hold onto the ball too long?  you almost have consider the release time for Allen when assessing a line.

 

its hard to assess if the Pats had a decent line when Brady was getting rid of the ball in just over 2 seconds.