Would you keep the HC\GM combo if Allen doesn't work out.

[Victory Formation]

52 minutes ago, inaugural balls said:

 

He was instrumental, sure. 

 

For this team to progress, he needs to elevate. The pieces are in place and JA in year 3 has me extremely optimistic. 

Allen definitely needs to elevate. We have a top 5 defense though and one of the league’s best RBs, he’ll have some teammates he can lean on. I think if Allen can net 4,000yds 30TDs to 12INTs we’ll probably be bringing home a Lombardi, this team is stacked.

[Trogdor]

38 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

OK possibly but who would you rather have at MLB right now over Edmunds? Top of my head I can only think of Leonard, Roquan Smith, and MAYBE Jaylon Smith rn...that's where I get my take on Edmunds...

CJ Mosely when healthy almost singlehandedly beat the Bills. That dude's a beast.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Trogdor said:

CJ Mosely when healthy almost singlehandedly beat the Bills. That dude's a beast.

He's good but I take Edmunds every day over Mosley

[Trogdor]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I agree with all of this.

 

Beane is closer to a Whaley type GM right now. Has made some nice moves, found some hidden gems in the draft and good FA pickups, but is missing the signature pick. Has had his busts like all GM’s do.

 

It’s funny, you could make the argument that pound for pound, McD was the one who orchestrated the best offseason when he was driving the whole ship. Acquiring Poyer, Hyde, White, Dawkins and Milano is a better group of players than either Beane or Whaley ever acquired. That may change as Edmunds, Oliver and most importantly Allen grow.

There is just nothing to back this up. The same guy who didn't have enough information to draft a QB just happened to take over for the rest of it? Poyer and Hyde are just a few FA finds in the Whaley era and White would be the 3rd very good to great DB. He might have had input, but I doubt very much that McD ran that off-season on his own. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

17 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Josh Allen isn't the acid test, McD's game management is.  Let's hope he doesn't boot another first-round playoff game against an inferior opponent.

 

Yes!

 

Hopefully there is some accountability if McD's game management keeps costing us. Not sure how the "he's a new first-time coach" excuse can still apply to Year 4. 

 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Bob in STL said:

 

The team is thriving right now and Allen is developing right now.   
 

 If Allen does not make it then you find another QB.  You do not get rid of Beane/McD because of it.  Let Beane make the changes,  which does not mean blow it up and start over.   Beane’s  body of work is more than Allen, although Allen is key because QB is always critical.  

 

The offense isn't thriving.  Beane said so in public.

 

But for the sake of this discussion, if with Allen they struggle to win games for a few seasons, seats can predictably get hot.

 

And as for "you find another QB".  Really? Just like that?  It took the Bills as a franchise using countless FO staff, coaches, scouts,  etc. 22 seasons to find Allen....

[BuffaloRebound]

1 hour ago, inaugural balls said:

 

So, if Josh can't get it done you'd expect a back up to deliver the goods?

 

 

Look at Tennessee last year with Tannehill.  I bet Chicago wishes they had a better backup than Chase Daniel last year.  You could argue that Josh is in same place as Mariota and Trubisky after their 2nd year.  Hopefully Josh has a better year 3 than those two, but I’d rather have a guy like a Tannehill as a backup than a guy like Barkley or Chase Daniel.  

[SeattleBills]

1 hour ago, inaugural balls said:

 

Who would you suggest as backup that you'd be comfortable with should JA go down?

 

 

I would have gone all-in to get Keenum as back-up. Given he is now gone, I would see how the situation plays out with Winston and Newton. IMO, at least Winston will land in back-up role. 

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The offense isn't thriving.  Beane said so in public.

 

But for the sake of this discussion, if with Allen they struggle to win games for a few seasons, seats can predictably get hot.

 

And as for "you find another QB".  Really? Just like that?  It took the Bills as a franchise using countless FO staff, coaches, scouts,  etc. 22 seasons to find Allen....

That’s why I didn’t get why fans would be so quick to want them to get another shot if Allen doesn’t make it.  Here’s what they done with the qb position:

 

- draft Nate peterman 

- put Tyrod Taylor in a west coach offense, traded away Watkins weeks before the season and replaced him with Jordan Matthews and Kelvin Benjamin 

- benched Tyrod for Peterman and saw one of the worst nfl starts in history

- went into last year with Allen, a rookie, and Peterman as the only qbs on the roster

- started Nate again who reminded us why he was one of the worst qbs ever

- cut peterman and brought the corpse of Derek Anderson out of retirement who had to start 2 games

- got Matt Barkley and his 65 career qb rating off the scrap heap

 

so yeah, I’m not so sure why everyone is so sold on this regime knowing what the hell they are doing with qbs.  If they fail with the highest drafted qb in franchise history (and hopefully they won’t), why do they deserve another shot again?  Because it’s been pretty awful at qb besides hopefully Allen,

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Look at Tennessee last year with Tannehill.  I bet Chicago wishes they had a better backup than Chase Daniel last year.  You could argue that Josh is in same place as Mariota and Trubisky after their 2nd year.  Hopefully Josh has a better year 3 than those two, but I’d rather have a guy like a Tannehill as a backup than a guy like Barkley or Chase Daniel.  

So many fans are just content with Barkley.  It’s weird.  Nice guy but might not even be in the nfl if we didn’t have him. 

[Troll Toll]

55 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

 

You do realize it is only MARCH of 2020? FA nowhere near done. Draft hasn't happened yet. Etc. How are you claiming the Offensive Line went unaddressed in 2020, when the addressing is just starting?

 

 

FA is basically picked over by this point and we’ve traded away our first round draft pick. I would be shocked to see us add anyone of true quality to the line from here on out.

[Motor26]

8 minutes ago, Troll Toll said:

FA is basically picked over by this point and we’ve traded away our first round draft pick. I would be shocked to see us add anyone of true quality to the line from here on out.

Right or wrong, looks like they’re betting on continuity on the line breeds improvement this year. 

[GoBills808]

lmao complaining about the backup QB or Tyrod Taylor for that matter

 

Peterman was a miss. 

 

These guys have made the playoffs 2/3 years in charge. 

 

And Allen's going to be a Bill for the next decade so get on board if you haven't already

 

 

[gobills404]

27 minutes ago, Troll Toll said:

FA is basically picked over by this point and we’ve traded away our first round draft pick. I would be shocked to see us add anyone of true quality to the line from here on out.

It's not hard to find quality iOL in the 2nd round. Just look at Dalton Risner, Elgton Jenkins, and Erik McCoy from year.

[thebandit27]

33 minutes ago, Troll Toll said:

FA is basically picked over by this point and we’ve traded away our first round draft pick. I would be shocked to see us add anyone of true quality to the line from here on out.

Picked over is a bit much...there’s 9 starting OTs on the market right now, just as an example.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

OK possibly but who would you rather have at MLB right now over Edmunds? Top of my head I can only think of Leonard, Roquan Smith, and MAYBE Jaylon Smith rn...that's where I get my take on Edmunds...

 

As in right now to play a game tomorrow? I think Kendricks and Wagner are still right up there. And Trevethan come to think of it and I would probably take Joe Schobert too. 

 

If you are asking who I'd rather have under contract for the next 3 years then yes... only Leonard, Roquan and Jaylon are in the conversation and to be honest only Leonard do I have definitely ahead. The two Smiths are pay your money and take your choice type decisions as against Edmunds in my opinion. But again... if you are asking this question it is still, in part, projection. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

LVE doesn't play MLB and is injured to boot. And at this point w/mileage and age I take Edmunds over Wagner who is great but 8 years older and imo will be overtaken by Edmunds next season

 

Also Edmunds made the Pro Bowl last season

You don’t factor in age when you’re talking about their play. I’d take Allen over Brees going forward because of age but that doesn’t make Allen more elite than Brees.

 

Edmunds was a ProBowl alternate last year. That’s better than nothing, but he wasn’t voted as a starter.

[Troll Toll]

13 minutes ago, Motor26 said:

Right or wrong, looks like they’re betting on continuity on the line breeds improvement this year. 

It is a little scary. Last night on NFL Network I caught the end of last year’s second game against the Patriots. Allen made a great throw to Beasley that got us down to ~10 yard line inside 2 minutes. From there...
 

1st Down: DaBoll calls a QB sweep that doesn’t go anywhere. I put that on both DaBoll and the line.

2nd Down: Allen misses a TD to Knox in the corner of the end zone by a foot. I remember after the game many put this on Allen, but I still feel like a better TE makes that play.

3rd Down: Sack from immediate pressure on the right AND up the middle where Pats only rushed 4?

4th Down: Allen struggles to heave one to John Brown in the end zone facing instant pressure from all angles.

 

Between DaBoll wasting a down with a bad running play, our late round TE essentially dropping a pass, and our offensive line not blocking we lose that game. I think that was a microcosm of the season on offense and those 3 areas haven’t been addressed so far...
 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy we have Diggs, but receiver was not the only place on offense we needed significant improvement. There is a reason we were in the bottom third of the NFL on offense beyond one receiver.

[FireChans]

58 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

There is just nothing to back this up. The same guy who didn't have enough information to draft a QB just happened to take over for the rest of it? Poyer and Hyde are just a few FA finds in the Whaley era and White would be the 3rd very good to great DB. He might have had input, but I doubt very much that McD ran that off-season on his own. 

Lol, you think Whaley was making the calls?

 

McD already came out and said he was scouting Hyde personally as the DC of the Panthers. 

 

Youre incorrect if you think Whaley was doing anything outside of what he was told by McD

[The Dean]

26 minutes ago, Motor26 said:

Right or wrong, looks like they’re betting on continuity on the line breeds improvement this year. 

 

4 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

It's not hard to find quality iOL in the 2nd round. Just look at Dalton Risner, Elgton Jenkins, and Erik McCoy from year.

 

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Picked over is a bit much...there’s 9 starting OTs on the market right now, just as an example.

 

Add to that, other teams are drafting 1st and 2nd rd OL talent. Then they may find they have an opportunity to trade one away. And then there are TC cuts. 

 

I'm not saying they WILL make any OL changes. But to conclude they are DONE as of now is absurd.  I don't expect the HUGE NAME so many crave. That's not their typical MO.  And let's not underestimate the value of a group of the same guys (who were an upgrade over the group the year before) playing together in the same system. There is DEFINITE value in that. 

 

With that said, I'll be shocked if they con't add another piece, or two. Most likely very versatile guys.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Lol, you think Whaley was making the calls?

 

McD already came out and said he was scouting Hyde personally as the DC of the Panthers. 

 

Youre incorrect if you think Whaley was doing anything outside of what he was told by McD

 

The biggest thing Whaley did was negotiate the trade with KC. And even then it was two outgoing GMs acting within one would imagine strict parameters set by their HCs. 

[Troll Toll]

2 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

 

 

Add to that, other teams are drafting 1st and 2nd rd OL talent. Then they may find they have an opportunity to trade one away. And then there are TC cuts. 

 

I'm not saying they WILL make any OL changes. But to conclude they are DONE as of now is absurd.  I don't expect the HUGE NAME so many crave. That's not their typical MO.  And let's not underestimate the value of a group of the same guys (who were an upgrade over the group the year before) playing together in the same system. There is DEFINITE value in that. 

 

With that said, I'll be shocked if they con't add another piece, or two. Most likely very versatile guys.

My point was they need significant improvement on the line, not lateral moves and depth players. Allen’s mobility hid a lot of deficiencies in the pass blocking. Our 2018 line was horrendous and 2019 was still less than mediocre.

[auburnbillsbacker]

Yes.  Allen is already decent and the rest of the roster is strong.

[T master]

Hey no bodies perfect the Bills fans here would roast them both though i for one think that if they miss they can't all be great picks i would keep them both, but like the OP i believe Josh should do well they have given him every thing to succeed now it's all up to him .

Edited March 21, 2020 by T master

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Look at Tennessee last year with Tannehill.  I bet Chicago wishes they had a better backup than Chase Daniel last year.  You could argue that Josh is in same place as Mariota and Trubisky after their 2nd year.  Hopefully Josh has a better year 3 than those two, but I’d rather have a guy like a Tannehill as a backup than a guy like Barkley or Chase Daniel.  

 

Ok, I hear you. Who's available that could save the day? 

 

Most teams wish their back up was better when they need to rely on them for any length of time.

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, SeattleBills said:

I would have gone all-in to get Keenum as back-up. Given he is now gone, I would see how the situation plays out with Winston and Newton. IMO, at least Winston will land in back-up role. 

 

Keenum is going all in? 

 

I'm not sure Newton or Winston are options as back ups. I would think there are some starting opportunities. I suppose a team with a questionable starter might be enticing to those guys. 

 

 

 

 

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, Troll Toll said:

FA is basically picked over by this point and we’ve traded away our first round draft pick. I would be shocked to see us add anyone of true quality to the line from here on out.

 

Wait - I thought we got something in return for that 1st rounder?

 

Is there an OL out there presently you're clamoring for? 

[HOUSE]

If McD stops clapping he needs an extension now!

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

lmao complaining about the backup QB or Tyrod Taylor for that matter

 

Peterman was a miss. 

 

These guys have made the playoffs 2/3 years in charge. 

 

And Allen's going to be a Bill for the next decade so get on board if you haven't already

 

 

 

A particular someone lives in the past. It's his thing. He won't be happy unless Beane fails.

[Bob in STL]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

The offense isn't thriving.  Beane said so in public.

 

But for the sake of this discussion, if with Allen they struggle to win games for a few seasons, seats can predictably get hot.

 

And as for "you find another QB".  Really? Just like that?  It took the Bills as a franchise using countless FO staff, coaches, scouts,  etc. 22 seasons to find Allen....

 

The Bills as an organization are thriving.  I never said the offense was, I am talking big picture.  Can you think big picture?  Stop dissecting my posts and making assumptions when I never said anything about the offense.  I am talking about entire organization.  The perception about Buffalo has changed for a lot of free agents too.  Can you grasp this concept?  
 

So, The organizing is thriving under Beane/McD.  I think it would be an error to replace them if Allen does not pan out.  That is my answer to the OP.  
 

Finally, I did not say finding a QB would be easy, but “find another QB” is the reality show Allen nit be the answer.  I don’t think Beane/McD are interested in past foibles by past regimes and I trust they would be better than most any of the execs we have had if they had to draft another qb.  
 

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Bob in STL

[McBean]

Y’all better give me another shot or I swear it won’t be pretty Bills Mafia!!!  

[Troll Toll]

9 minutes ago, inaugural balls said:

 

Wait - I thought we got something in return for that 1st rounder?

 

Is there an OL out there presently you're clamoring for? 

Thanks for making my point?

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, Troll Toll said:

It is a little scary. Last night on NFL Network I caught the end of last year’s second game against the Patriots. Allen made a great throw to Beasley that got us down to ~10 yard line inside 2 minutes. From there...
 

1st Down: DaBoll calls a QB sweep that doesn’t go anywhere. I put that on both DaBoll and the line.

2nd Down: Allen misses a TD to Knox in the corner of the end zone by a foot. I remember after the game many put this on Allen, but I still feel like a better TE makes that play.

3rd Down: Sack from immediate pressure on the right AND up the middle where Pats only rushed 4?

4th Down: Allen struggles to heave one to John Brown in the end zone facing instant pressure from all angles.

 

Between DaBoll wasting a down with a bad running play, our late round TE essentially dropping a pass, and our offensive line not blocking we lose that game. I think that was a microcosm of the season on offense and those 3 areas haven’t been addressed so far...
 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy we have Diggs, but receiver was not the only place on offense we needed significant improvement. There is a reason we were in the bottom third of the NFL on offense beyond one receiver.

 

Why can't some just see....just realize....the arrow points upward? Doesn't guarantee anything, but man, if you can't see the strides this team is making it's because you opt not to. 

 

This organization is in good hands. Stop trying to rip it down when there is no reason to. All so you can say I told you so.

 

 

1 minute ago, Troll Toll said:

Thanks for making my point?

 

I did? explain

[Beast]

Yes, yes I would.

[BaaadThingsMan]

Yes,  no question 

[Happy]

I don't see Josh not working out, he won't be a bust.  He may not win as many SBs as Elway, but Josh will play enough like him that moving up to draft Josh will be worth it.

[Troll Toll]

15 minutes ago, inaugural balls said:

 

Why can't some just see....just realize....the arrow points upward? Doesn't guarantee anything, but man, if you can't see the strides this team is making it's because you opt not to. 

 

This organization is in good hands. Stop trying to rip it down when there is no reason to. All so you can say I told you so.

 

 

 

I did? explain

I definitely agree that the arrow points upward. I’m more or less making the case that IF we wind up under .500 next season, I think it would more likely be due to OL issues and/or lack of depth at receiver (in the case of an injury to one of our top 3) than Allen’s level of play.

[Foxx]

20 hours ago, downunderbill said:

When Allen was drafted and during that first season, particularly the first few games, I recall a lot anger and fire everybody posts tying the HC and GMs job to Allen becoming the guy. First off I'm firmly in the Allen corner and believe he is the guy, it's not about if he will be or not. hypothetically, Just say he does severely regress this year and it becomes obvious he isn't the guy, would you be willing to let the current hierarchy have another crack at the QB pick. 

 

Personally, I definitely would, I love these guys and how they operate, feel they should be here for a long time, Allen working out or not. Whay say you?

they only really had three options when it became their turn. Rosen, Allen or Jackson. we all know how Rosen is turning out so that was a good non-choice. is Jackson really better than Allen or is he a byproduct of the system Roman has traditionally run? will defenses catch up to the Ravens and Jackson this year?  i don't really know but i suspect Jackson is not as good as advertised.

 

in the long run, Allen has a real good chance to be better and the best QB of that draft. you don't make those evaluations after two years, you make them after 4, at minimum.

[SeattleBills]

1 hour ago, inaugural balls said:

 

Keenum is going all in? 

 

I'm not sure Newton or Winston are options as back ups. I would think there are some starting opportunities. I suppose a team with a questionable starter might be enticing to those guys. 

 

 

 

 

As much as you would go “all-in” for back-up QB ? 

[SoTier]

21 hours ago, downunderbill said:

When Allen was drafted and during that first season, particularly the first few games, I recall a lot anger and fire everybody posts tying the HC and GMs job to Allen becoming the guy. First off I'm firmly in the Allen corner and believe he is the guy, it's not about if he will be or not. hypothetically, Just say he does severely regress this year and it becomes obvious he isn't the guy, would you be willing to let the current hierarchy have another crack at the QB pick. 

 

Personally, I definitely would, I love these guys and how they operate, feel they should be here for a long time, Allen working out or not. Whay say you?

 

I would be willing to give them more time depending on how they handled the situation of having a first round QB who obviously isn't "the guy".  I think that they've built a good enough team to win at least 9-10 games a season and compete for the playoffs even with only modest QB play.  Do they do stand pat with that --  a QB not good enough to make them real contenders -- or do they do something about that to get better? 

 

Two teams that were also "a QB short" of a playoff powerhouse within the last decade give some possible responses ...

• Minnesota drafted a first round bust in 2011 -- Christian Ponder -- who lasted only 4 years in the league.  They then drafted Teddy Bridgewater at the end of the first round in 2014 who was very promising until his terrible knee injury came close to ending his career. Finally, they went "all in" on Kirk Cousins.
• Tennessee was in that situation with Mariota when Vrabel became HC.  They decided to bring in a better QB in 2019 and then decided to play him when Mariota failed to move the team early in the season.   Chicago seems to be following Tennessee's example by bringing in Nick Foles just in case Trubisky can't be effective.

 

These aren't the only two solutions, but they are examples of teams being proactive about their QB situation, and that's what I'd like to see Beane and McDermott be as well.

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by SoTier

[BuffaloRebound]

2 hours ago, inaugural balls said:

 

Ok, I hear you. Who's available that could save the day? 

 

Most teams wish their back up was better when they need to rely on them for any length of time.

I don’t see anybody available right now that is significantly better than Barkley, unless Cam wants to take $5m for a medical redshirt year where he can get healthy and maybe you turn to him at the end of the year if Josh struggles.  
Outside of that I’d look hard at taking a guy in the 4th or 5th round with more upside than Barkley.  
If Josh gets injured or struggles next year, we will all be pissed when Barkley is all we have to turn to.