Skurski: Star Lotulelei's Fine With Bearing Brunt of Criticism For Bills Struggles Against Run

[Casey D]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

The reason guy A gets paid more then guy B is usually because guy A makes less mistakes, it's implied. 

Not in free agency.  Most guys who hit free agency have flaws, that's why their teams chose not to hang onto them.   But FAs get big money due to the market.  The only way to get a DT better than Star is to draft, develop and keep.  The grade A players rarely hit free agency, so what FAs get paid does not translate directly to the talent level.

[White Linen]

Is this an example of him doing so much we don't know about?

 

 

This must be him taking on multiple offensive lineman so everyone else can make the play and get the glory.  

 

 

[Thurman#1]

Remind me, when referring to his having bad plays, did I say, " A play here and there? Yes. But few and far between." Oh, yeah, yes I did.

 

So I'm aware there are a few bad plays on film out there. Star takes responsibility for two last game right in ther article. And you can find two bad plays on absolutely any player in the league, from Aaron Donald and the Bosas on down. Can you produce 20 or 30? You could for Peko.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Thurman#1

[CommonCents]

41 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

That may be what YOU want from someone with his paycheck. But not so much McDermott and Beane.

 

There are several big space eaters up that high in the average salary rankings. So several teams that value that skill set enough to pay a guy enough to very clearly show they disagree with you. And McDermott is one. They knew what they were getting with Star. McDermott had coached him for several years and obviously wanted him here and didn't have a problem with the salary. So yeah, the whipping boy problem does indeed have to do with fans having different priorities than the coaching staff does.

 

 

Same way they knew all about KB and decided to trade a 2nd rounder for him? 

[Thurman#1]

21 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

unfortunately star is compensated in a way that as a gap filler you shouldn’t be starting many comparisons with “even though he was a better player than star....”

 

Generally speaking the guys paid more are the disruptive penetrating players. 
 

there must be at least some concern that the center of our defense had one of the top paid pluggers and a top 10 pick at DT and a very high pick at MLB and run stuffing is considered a weak point at the moment. Hopefully the kids keep growing and elevating their play 

 

 

Again, when you look at what DLs are paid, it's plain that's wrong. Several gap pluggers are paid what he is and more. Are guys who can do it all paid more? Yeah, and for good reason. Aaron Donald is paid more than twice what Star is paid and he's worth it. But there are several space eaters paid similarly to Star.

 

As for run stuffing being a weakness, if it continues to be so, I'll worry more. It appears to be two or three specific games where we had problems.

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

This means that there are some folk here, who it appears do not know as much as they would pretend they do, some have back peddled a bit already, which is always entertaining. Those that bring up his wages make themselves sound the fool, especially being it has zero effect on the teams ability to spend.. 

 

No player wins every single snap, thinking fans know this.  Star like all our guys owns his mistakes, and has at it again. 

 

Maybe if if we are lucky the vitriol will be reduced for, what,  A day maybe... ya can lead a horse to water, but ya can’t make it drink, as the saying goes

 

Now let’s watch these board members spin spin spin ?.

 

 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

I don't know how many time I wanted to say no player wins them all. We're 6-2 because of the defense. I think most will agree. In the skins game, if the db doesn't screw up and not tackle AP, twice, we're not mentioning this. AP doesn't have over 100yds all game, much less the 1st half if those 2 tackles are made. That was 40 yds on 2 plays where the dline did its job. 1 player missing an assignment can make the whole defense look like crap and that's what happened. AP had like 8 yds the whole 2nd half. Why? Gap responsibility and tackling. The only issues with the dline has been Phillip's injury and Peko wasn't good. Let's hope Taylor and Liuget play as well as Star, Phillips and Oliver have most of the season.

[Thurman#1]

1 minute ago, CommonCents said:

Same way they knew all about KB and decided to trade a 2nd rounder for him? 

 

 

It was a 3rd, not a 2nd. And a 7th was thrown in.

[Logic]

The thing that bugs me with the Star talk is that everyone on the Bills -- coaches, players (young and old), everyone -- says he does his job and does it well.

Meanwhile, fans -- not even analysts, really, just regular fans -- swear up and down that he stinks.

So who should I believe? The coaches and players? Guys like Leslie Frazier and Lorenzo Alexander? Or armchair quarterbacks and message board "experts"?
 

The big disconnect, in my opinion, likely comes down to what the guy is paid. If he had an average contract, no one would talk about him much. Because he gets paid a lot, Bills fans like to scapegoat him and whine endlessly about him.

Maybe, just maybe, there's more to the Bills' recent run defense problems than just one player's performance? Maybe, just maybe, fans don't always know what the hell they're talking about?

[Thurman#1]

I should say I'm not a huge fanboy or anything. If they can replace his play cheaper in the next year or two, they should do it. Wouldn't be any skin off my nose.

 

But the hate here from a group of fans and the love from the Bills, shown in contract terms, quotes, interviews and every way they can, really, shows that someone is missing something. And it's probably not the folks who know his assignments on every play.

 

Outta here for the evening.

Edited November 9, 2019 by Thurman#1

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Junction said:

The issue is that fans expect Star to perform in a manner similar to other NTs in that salary range; many of whom make more splash plays. Unfortunately, that comes with neglecting several details... most notably when Star was signed he was one of the best NTs on the market, and they needed a plug and play NT. Beane & Co can definitely upgrade the position, but it will likely be a phase out as they develop younger players to take over the role. 

 

....very fair assessment IMO.....hate to use " stop gap" because it connotes desperation......"plug and play" sounds far better and McBeane knew what he was getting.....cap hit(s) say he may be here for awhile......

[Green Lightning]

3 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

I don't think star is the problem at our DT position.

To me he's the Maginot line of DTs. Holds his ground and watches the play go around him for big yards. How about some occasional lateral pursuit or perchance a penetration & tackle every now and again? Huge dollars for a traffic cone to me.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, Green Lightning said:

To me he's the Maginot line of DTs. Holds his ground and watches the play go around him for big yards. How about some occasional lateral pursuit or perchance a penetration & tackle every now and again? Huge dollars for a traffic cone to me.

 

...was he like that before just coming to OBD?......would seem to be a pretty rapid decline if he was not......perhaps lack of motivation in that his contract has a pretty hefty cap hit if released...thoughts?...

[ALF]

It would be nice to find a motivated space eater like Vince Wilfork , liked his attitude and BBQ

[Buffalo Junction]

32 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....very fair assessment IMO.....hate to use " stop gap" because it connotes desperation......"plug and play" sounds far better and McBeane knew what he was getting.....cap hit(s) say he may be here for awhile......

IMO, Star is better than a simple “stop gap”. Beane has shown that he’s not handing out long term contracts to stop gap players. Star’s role was/is vital to the defense functioning properly. He fit a need, knew the defense, etc. He may be overpaid for that role, but I don’t care how they spend Peg’s money as long as they have the cap space to resign critical players. I think a lot of folks aren’t being honest with how long it can take to develop defensive tackles, especially NTs that don’t have blue chip physical traits... It’s strength and technique which take time to build. They will put guys in the pipeline and Star likely won’t be retained for the same salary once his contract is up. If they end up finding a gem like Pat Williams he might be released. 
 

Not having a replacement for Horrible Harry is a much bigger problem than Star’s ability.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, ALF said:

It would be nice to find a motivated space eater like Vince Wilfork , liked his attitude and BBQ

 

...knees, right??..........

Just now, Buffalo Junction said:

IMO, Star is better than a simple “stop gap”. Beane has shown that he’s not handing out long term contracts to stop gap players. Star’s role was/is vital to the defense functioning properly. He fit a need, knew the defense, etc. He may be overpaid for that role, but I don’t care how they spend Peg’s money as long as they have the cap space to resign critical players. I think a lot of folks aren’t being honest with how long it can take to develop defensive tackles, especially NTs that don’t have blue chip physical traits... It’s strength and technique which take time to build. They will put guys in the pipeline and Star likely won’t be retained for the same salary once his contract is up. If they end up finding a gem like Pat Williams he might be released. 
 

Not having a replacement for Horrible Harry is a much bigger problem than Star’s ability.

 

...agree....nicely done bud......now put on the kevlar and take cover from the "TBD Star Fan Club (COUGH)".......

[Rocket94]

41 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

To me he's the Maginot line of DTs. Holds his ground and watches the play go around him for big yards. How about some occasional lateral pursuit or perchance a penetration & tackle every now and again? Huge dollars for a traffic cone to me.

Excellent description! Maginot Line! All you have to do is go around! Hey...it has been proven to work!

Edited November 9, 2019 by Rocket94

[Logic]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Apparently everyone's doing a good job as teams run wild on us week in and week out. Fans just don't know what they are seeing....?

Yeah. I'm sure YOUR take is right. I'm sure it's just one guy's fault ?

[ROCBillsBeliever]

2 hours ago, BUFFALOKIE said:

I like saying "Star La-too-lay-lay". It's fun.

 

 

So does Tasker, on One Bills Live. He sounds hilarious, struggling through it, and you know they have it printed out, phonetically, for him, by the way he reads it, on air. Don't get me wrong, I love Tasker, but he kills me, sometimes.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Locomark said:

Star’s whipping boy problem has to do with his paycheck. Space eaters still need to make the occasional splash play in the backfield, push the pile back, get the ugly turnover. Think old players of Adams or Washington eating space BUT making plays too. That is what we want for a highly compensated guy. Otherwise let’s just get some sumo guy if the expectation is to hold 2 guys up and never make any plays. 

 

Errrrr.....I think you might need to re-read what you wrote there.  For a space eater, to wrote "if the expectation is to hold 2 guys up and never make any plays" is an implicit contradiction.  Space eaters need to hold 2 guys up.  That's literally the expectation of how they make plays.

[TheFunPolice]

Star has been doing a fine job 

 

He's never hurt and he never complains...

 

Just eats up blocks and lets teammates have the glory

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Green Lightning said:

To me he's the Maginot line of DTs. Holds his ground and watches the play go around him for big yards. How about some occasional lateral pursuit or perchance a penetration & tackle every now and again? Huge dollars for a traffic cone to me.

 

Um, if he's holding his ground and the play is going around him for big yards, then by definition it's SOME OTHER GUY who isn't doing his job.

 

Look, I freely acknowledge that I'm self taught about football.  Never played, never coached. 

 

But the level of misunderstanding here, it burns.  In the type of defense McDermott and Frazier run, it is LITERALLY Lotuleilei's job to hold his ground, and other people's job to engage in lateral pursuit or tackle.  Literally.

Now the way in which Lotuleilei does his job can be critiqued.  In the linked article, he says himself that a couple of big Redskins run plays were on him.  But what he says is interesting: “Speaking for myself, I tried to do too much,” he said. “There were two big runs that were on me, where I tried to do too much. I'll peak into a different gap when that's not my gap. We're supposed to be a gap-sound defense and everybody is supposed to do their job. It's just a matter of everybody trusting each other and then being disciplined. They were both huge runs, and I take full responsibility for those. It's just a matter of trusting the guy next to you and being disciplined.”

Do Your Job.  It's about Do Your Job, trust the guys next to you to do theirs, and don't try to do someone elses.

[Lurker]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

unfortunately star is compensated in a way that as a gap filler you shouldn’t be starting many comparisons with “even though he was a better player than star....”

 

Generally speaking the guys paid more are the disruptive penetrating players. 
 

there must be at least some concern that the center of our defense had one of the top paid pluggers and a top 10 pick at DT and a very high pick at MLB and run stuffing is considered a weak point at the moment. Hopefully the kids keep growing and elevating their play 

 

The LBs have been the problem in the run game lately.

 

Player contracts are what they are.   They don't mean a damn thing when the Bills have so much cap space, but human nature being what it is...

[C.Biscuit97]

It’s funny that some people use this as proof that Star is not a bad signing.  Are his teammates going to say this guy sucks, is completely overpaid, and his farts smell like cat poop?  Or McBean going to say we once again completely overrated a Carolina player and could have a guy at 1/5 of the price for the same production?

 

paying  one dimensional players a lot of money  in today’s nfl is really not smart. And even if Star was awesome and teams couldn’t run the ball against us, all teams have to do is spread the field and he can’t play. Imagine how good this defense could be if we did better than Star and Murphy last off-season.  I guarantee guys were signed for a lot less who are far bigger impact players.

32 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

The LBs have been the problem in the run game lately.

 

Player contracts are what they are.   They don't mean a damn thing when the Bills have so much cap space, but human nature being what it is...

So let’s just give our bad contracts because we have cap room?

 

and lbs are the rbs of the defense. If the line in front of them is good, they are interchangeable. We have smaller linebackers so it’s imperative that the d line wins at the line of scrimmage. Milano And Edmunds at this point aren’t  built to take on o linemen.

[Buffalophil1948]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Junction said:

 

Not having a replacement for Horrible Harry is a much bigger problem than Star’s ability.

I "Trust" that this will be addressed in FA or the draft. I'm ok with this and glad we didn't pull off a lopsided trade at the deadline. Don't want buyer's remorse. 

[WideNine]

These guys in the locker room are not going to start to point fingers, BUT as fans we get to have more fun and have the liberty to do so.

 

I have always thought that Star is doing what Star did for the Panthers and what the Bills are asking of him today which is to engage blockers and create seams and gaps allowing LBs to penetrate and stop the run. The big difference for the Bills is that Edmunds at MLB is not Luke Kuechly in regards to his ability to quickly diagnose, avoid and shed blockers, and get to the running back.

 

There are still too many plays where our linebackers are either on their heels waiting for the running backs and/or blockers to get to them or aggressively attacking the wrong gaps, or there are times they hit the right gap, but more than a few long runs were the result of the running back hitting the scrum with no where to go, yet being able to bounce it outside.

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Yeah. I'm sure YOUR take is right. I'm sure it's just one guy's fault ?

scottlaw is never wrong.  

[LABILLBACKER]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I still don't think he is a finisher. He generally is in the right place but I see too many plays where he doesn't maintain maximum effort to the whistle. He hasn't been the main issue though with the run game. It is about linebacker gap discipline and what @Dopey says about the safeties was certainly true against Philadelphia. It was Hyde's worst game as a Bill. I thought the safeties were better against Washington. That was more linebackers and a bit of Dline. 

Is Star worth the money they're paying him. Probably not? But I think the issues that fans like me have with him is he doesn't do anything extra beyond just standing there and taking on the double.  Just once I wanna see him maybe get a sack? Just once I wanna see him maybe roll off a block and get a tackle? People who get paid handsomely an above avg contract need to sometimes perform above avg.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

I know that fans get upset when guys get paid a lot of money and they don't deliver stats that fans expect.  In Star's case, the Bills paid what the market was driving.  They paid what they needed to pay to sign him.  He hasn't been perfect but he hasn't been bad either.  The inconvenient truth for all of the critics is that there isn't a better option currently available to do what Star does.  He faces double teams on a high percentage of interior running plays which is what the Bills need him to take on.  If he was not being effective at the point of attack, opponents would be handling him with a single man up block.  He sees a lot of single blocks on running plays away from him, which is what we should expect.  He isn't going to chase many running backs down from the backside.

 

I do like the fact that Star is available for a high percentage of games in his career and he isn't out getting into trouble or being a distraction for the team.  I would like him to be a more visibly disruptive force but I don't see that changing.

 

As I watch the run defense, I am more concerned with Murphy and Hughes being out of position because their first moves are intended to attack the QB on most plays.  In addition, the Bills seem to play a lot of nickel and big nickel.  Opponents have run at that extra DB with a fair amount of success.  Lastly, tackling has not been consistent.  Even if Star steps it up, other things need to happen as well.

 

[Mr. WEO]

The Bills should know that I could be that bad against the run for FAR less.  And I would be at least as shameless!

[LSHMEAB]

The fact IS that the Bills have had some pretty glaring issues defensively the past 3 outings. 

 

It was a nice article and it's clear he's well respected by his teammates, but I don't think the defense should be resting on it's laurels. They've got a ways to go. The LB group has not maintained disciplined gap assignment. Edmunds and even Milano have been inconsistent in this regard. BUT, is Star really doing anything special? He's occupying space, but slipping in terms of his already low standards of playmaking.

 

I don't think anyone looks at Star as THE problem over this stretch. The problem is that he's not a solution. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[C.Biscuit97]

11 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

The fact IS that the Bills have had some pretty glaring issues defensively the past 3 outings. 

 

It was a nice article and it's clear he's well respected by his teammates, but I don't think the defense should be resting on it's laurels. They've got a ways to go. The LB group has not maintained disciplined gap assignment. Edmunds and even Milano have been inconsistent in this regard. BUT, is Star really doing anything special? He's occupying space, but slipping in terms of his already low standards of playmaking.

 

I don't think anyone looks at Star as THE problem over this stretch. The problem is that he's not a solution. 

Good post. Star is fine at taking on 2 blockers and doing really nothing after that. That’s his job.   It it’s the mindset to sign a one dimensional player to that much money in the first place is the problem.  
 

We don’t see it in buffalo but it’s a passing league. I believe teams pass 60% of the time if not higher.  So that’s at least 60% of the time Star can’t play.  

[oldmanfan]

42 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don’t think I ever said that.... I’ve voiced my opinion that Edmunds is the biggest culprit for the struggles in the run game. Guy is always on his heels slow to react. 

 

I just find find it funny how some how everyone is doing fine yet the team is getting gashed game in and game out.

Maybe because it’s not game in and game out.  Tough game against the Eagles.  Tough first half last week, then a complete shut down in the second.  And the other 6 games they weren’t gashed at all.

 

Maybe  you should quit making unsubstantiated generalizations.

[WideNine]

42 minutes ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

I know that fans get upset when guys get paid a lot of money and they don't deliver stats that fans expect.  In Star's case, the Bills paid what the market was driving.  They paid what they needed to pay to sign him.  He hasn't been perfect but he hasn't been bad either.  The inconvenient truth for all of the critics is that there isn't a better option currently available to do what Star does.  He faces double teams on a high percentage of interior running plays which is what the Bills need him to take on.  If he was not being effective at the point of attack, opponents would be handling him with a single man up block.  He sees a lot of single blocks on running plays away from him, which is what we should expect.  He isn't going to chase many running backs down from the backside.

 

I do like the fact that Star is available for a high percentage of games in his career and he isn't out getting into trouble or being a distraction for the team.  I would like him to be a more visibly disruptive force but I don't see that changing.

 

As I watch the run defense, I am more concerned with Murphy and Hughes being out of position because their first moves are intended to attack the QB on most plays.  In addition, the Bills seem to play a lot of nickel and big nickel.  Opponents have run at that extra DB with a fair amount of success.  Lastly, tackling has not been consistent.  Even if Star steps it up, other things need to happen as well.

 

 

I have seen this too from our ends. I think Murphy may be a bit more disciplined regarding his edge contain duties.

 

Hughes sells out to his pass rush either taking it high and they slip the run under that, or taking an inside move that leaves him pinned inside allowing the RB or mobile QB to exploit the outside.

 

There may be something the Bills are doing schematically that is supposed to allow our ends that kind of freedom, I dunno. I just have seen teams take advantage of it.

 

 

 

 

[Happy]

17 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Good post. Star is fine at taking on 2 blockers and doing really nothing after that. That’s his job.   It it’s the mindset to sign a one dimensional player to that much money in the first place is the problem.

 

But is he consistently taking on two blockers?  I would think if he was, there wouldn't be a rush defense problem since the LBers would have a clear shot at the RB; unless Milano and Edmunds are not getting the gap assignments correct, and are out of position when the rusher runs past the defensive front.

[CommonCents]

The homersim when discussing certain players has gone a bit far. You don’t have to watch all-22 or stare at Star’s backside all game. Just pay attention to how many times he gets spun backwards with his butt facing the LOS as he gets pushed around. He isn’t and hasn’t been good. He is providing replacement level play for a hefty price. 

 

Oliver gets spun around much the same but that is expected for a smallish rookie. Star was paid to come in and have an impact. 

[Green Lightning]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Um, if he's holding his ground and the play is going around him for big yards, then by definition it's SOME OTHER GUY who isn't doing his job.

 

Look, I freely acknowledge that I'm self taught about football.  Never played, never coached. 

 

But the level of misunderstanding here, it burns.  In the type of defense McDermott and Frazier run, it is LITERALLY Lotuleilei's job to hold his ground, and other people's job to engage in lateral pursuit or tackle.  Literally.

Now the way in which Lotuleilei does his job can be critiqued.  In the linked article, he says himself that a couple of big Redskins run plays were on him.  But what he says is interesting: “Speaking for myself, I tried to do too much,” he said. “There were two big runs that were on me, where I tried to do too much. I'll peak into a different gap when that's not my gap. We're supposed to be a gap-sound defense and everybody is supposed to do their job. It's just a matter of everybody trusting each other and then being disciplined. They were both huge runs, and I take full responsibility for those. It's just a matter of trusting the guy next to you and being disciplined.”

Do Your Job.  It's about Do Your Job, trust the guys next to you to do theirs, and don't try to do someone elses.

No it's not, his job is a tie up multiple blockers and he rarely does. He's often stoned by one OL. He's also supposed to push the pocket and he never does. So standing up and standing still is not my idea of a space-eater or a quality high-paid DT. 

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, Buffalophil1948 said:

I "Trust" that this will be addressed in FA or the draft. I'm ok with this and glad we didn't pull off a lopsided trade at the deadline. Don't want buyer's remorse. 

I think it will be. Depending on what happens with the other Phillips I wouldn’t be surprised to see another DT drafted in the first three rounds. Wait and see. ?‍♂️

[Green Lightning]

3 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...was he like that before just coming to OBD?......would seem to be a pretty rapid decline if he was not......perhaps lack of motivation in that his contract has a pretty hefty cap hit if released...thoughts?...

If you recall during the signing many "pundits" pointed out that Star's numbers were declining and his effectiveness was deteriorating in his last few years at Carolina. I didn't pay it much mind but I have to admit they may have been right. So maybe we shouldn't be surprised he is the way he is. He's clearly one-dimensional and just not worth the money. I'm not saying  others aren't contributing to this poor run defense. It's just that he's supposed to be the big space-eater and occupy multiple blockers, keep our linebackers clean, and a push the pocket guy. And that just ain't the case.

[GG]

32 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Good post. Star is fine at taking on 2 blockers and doing really nothing after that. That’s his job.   It it’s the mindset to sign a one dimensional player to that much money in the first place is the problem.  
 

We don’t see it in buffalo but it’s a passing league. I believe teams pass 60% of the time if not higher.  So that’s at least 60% of the time Star can’t play.  

 

Absolutely correct, and I’m guessing that part of the stories absolving Star is the push by OBD to take some heat off their biggest FA acquisition.  It’s fair to question last year’s FA moves on the DL that haven’t fully panned out.

 

It’s also an indictment of McDermott’s scheme that is prone to complete breakdowns if only one player misses an assignment.  

[John from Riverside]

My lying eyes are deceiving me the. I do not see star taking on 2 blockers

 

i trust McD though