Is Star Lotulelei A Liability on the DL?

[dave mcbride]

Just now, GG said:

 

I don't think it's fair to compare running plays to passing plays, especially when Bills don't even think of inserting Star in on passing downs (which should give you a hint of what they think of his abilities).  If you go through the running plays, you won't see too much difference between the two, and Peko is slightly better in actually penetrating into the backfield.

 

Funny how you're turning this thread into a slam fest of J Philips, who's been playing well and leads the team in sacks.

 

If I have time this weekend, I'll put together reel of Star's greatest hits for all to analyze.

 

 

No need. I've pasted it immediately below. It took me no time at all.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

I don't think it's fair to compare running plays to passing plays, especially when Bills don't even think of inserting Star in on passing downs (which should give you a hint of what they think of his abilities).  If you go through the running plays, you won't see too much difference between the two, and Peko is slightly better in actually penetrating into the backfield.

 

Funny how you're turning this thread into a slam fest of J Philips, who's been playing well and leads the team in sacks.

 

If I have time this weekend, I'll put together reel of Star's greatest hits for all to analyze.

 

 

I just did and bolded is just wrong. Sorry. No other way to put it.

 

I'm not slamming Phillips. I like Phillips. I bring him and Peko up because people are conflating what they do with Lotulelei and they have different roles. 

 

I brought up the pass/run to illustrate the difference in strength and balance mostly. It's harder as a DT to keep your base when the offensive line is run blocking. 

 

I don't pretend to know what the Bills think of Lotulelei's abilities. I've put a few clips in this thread illustrating my points. I do know that judging him on the amount of snaps he gets on passing downs isn't going to tell you much, and if you're looking for some highlight reel plays you're not going to find them. That doesn't make him a liability like the OP suggests.

[billsfan89]

7 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Lotuleilei actually produced in Carolina up until his final season there, which is when he began his decline into the ultimate JAG. On the positive side, he knows his assignments and doesn’t get injured (no small thing). But as I said earlier, NFL players are paid to make plays. He is not even close to being a disruptor, and his lack of ability to pressure the QB is one reason why the Bills’ sack numbers are pretty low (13).

 

I don't think Star playing a run stuffing line controlling role for 40ish% of the defensive snaps are why the Bills rank 22nd in sacks. For one the Bills have only played 6 games out of the teams that played 6 games (a lot of the league has played 7) so that is skewing the stats a bit. Of the 21 teams that rank ahead of them in total sacks 14 of them have played 7 or 8 games (the 8 being the two teams that played yesterday.) Granted that's not to say the Bills would be in the top 10 even if they had an extra game but their ranking in total sacks is a bit off. 

 

In my opinion the Bills general lack of sack production stems from a lack of an edge rush. Oliver and Phillips are getting pressure up the middle while Hughes is getting some pressure of the edge but only has 1.5 sacks to account for it, meanwhile Shaq and Trent Murphy have only accounted for 1 sack combined. Lorax is second on the team with sacks at 2 and he blitzes from all over the place. 

 

Star does a lot of the grinding down low might be more of a run game value and he certainly is overpaid in that role. But it is a needed component of the defense (I trust McD knows the worth it has to the scheme both here and in Carolina) and not a player you can point to for the lack of an elite pass rush in part. 

[vincec]

On 10/24/2019 at 1:04 PM, thenorthremembers said:

If Phillips keeps getting reps at the 1 tech, they need to designate Star as a post June 1st cut and get out of the contract they gave him.    If Phillips was healthy I think Star would be losing more and more time.  

Yes. Harrison Phillips was already getting more reps that Lotulelei before he was injured, and that trend would have probably continued given Phillips youth and improvement.

 

Unfortunately, he is out, Petko is worse that Lotulelei, and Edmunds is not a classic run-stuffing MLB. That means that you can probably run right at them, as Miami showed. They Bills can always counter with numbers, dropping an extra man in the box and playing more man coverage but that's not really the defense's strength so it will be a cat and mouse game.

 

The best thing the Bills can do is race out to a big lead and chase the Eagles out of the run game all together.

[GG]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I just did and bolded is just wrong. Sorry. No other way to put it.

 

 

 

Just for kicks, look at the endzone replay of these 2 plays from Dolphins' opening drive in the second half

 

1

10

BUF 45

Mark Walton left tackle for no gain (tackle by Levi Wallace and Lorenzo Alexander

Peko at DT

 

 

 

1

10

BUF 31

Mark Walton left guard for 7 yards (tackle by Lorenzo Alexander)

Star at DT

 

 

Peko was triple teamed, but still had the dexterity to knife in for the tackle assist.   Star, OTOH was easily run off the play by a single blocker and made little effort to regain his ground, which Walton happily occupied.

 

[GoBills808]

Video would be helpful

[GG]

Later this weekend.  My review shows very little difference in performance between the highest paid Bills defender and the lowest.  

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, GG said:

Later this weekend.  My review shows very little difference in performance between the highest paid Bills defender and the lowest.  

?I'll watch it with an open mind. Personally I don't see it but I'm always up for a different perspective

[GoBills808]

PS re: Lotulelei's role eating double-teams...easy place to look vs Dolphins is 4th quarter drive, score 24-14 with 6:31 remaining. First play Lotulelei lines up over RG, Phillips on LG, pass pro doubles Lotulelei w/C and RG. Everyone else left 1v1. Standard 4 man front and rush.

 

Next play they shift and Phillips lines up over RG with Lotulelei over LG. Again Lotulelei takes on double team, everyone else left 1v1. Same front, same straight pass rush. 

[GreggTX]

I'd wager this is Star's last season in Buffalo. Both Harry and Jordan Phillips have played much better even if no one outside of Buffalo has noticed and Harry will be back.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Went back through the game footage. The sack came from Phillips' timing the snap, yes, but almost 100% he was the TE's assignment in motion not LG, tried to get him on the wham which should speak to how they view blocking priorities vis a vis Buffalo DTs respectively. 

 

Lotulelei doesn't 'sometimes engage a couple blockers', he gets doubled a lot and usually maintains ground. Phillips gets physically lifted off his feet and spun around backwards on the occasions he faced doubles vs Miami that I saw. Didn't see Lotulelei get 'shoved out of the play completely' once. As for there not being much drop off between him and Peko...difference is stark imo. 

 

 

First play is a Walton run where Lotulelei takes on a double, stacks/sheds C...that's a win. That's his job, that's what he's there for. The play succeeds because Edmunds takes a bad step right. 

 

Last play is Peko and Phillips both getting wiped out by Dolphins offensive line for one of the cleanest pockets you'll ever see. It looks like Peko tries to take 2 on a twist with Lawson but he's not strong and gets turned sideways immediately. Phillips gets stood up and spun around.

 

While I disagree with you on Star - he definitely doesn't get doubled as regularly as you claim - I am certainly willing to agree that he wasn't the problem in the run D last week. That was definitely Edmunds. 

 

EDIT: and I agree there is a noticeable drop off to Peko. Peko is a back end of roster filler player. Star has a purpose. It is just a limited one and he is no better than average at it. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by GunnerBill

[T master]

To this point like McD says play the one that deserves to be on the field & if he continues to not play up to his contract then cut him & give the spot to Phillips he is playing a lot better & deserves more playing time ! I would love to see Leslie just let him loose to see what he could do !! 

 

He is a big man & probably a better run stuffer & he loves it here so pay him & play him !! 

[Rocket94]

On 10/25/2019 at 4:49 PM, GreggTX said:

I'd wager this is Star's last season in Buffalo. Both Harry and Jordan Phillips have played much better even if no one outside of Buffalo has noticed and Harry will be back.

Heck, if we can see the decline in play, then McDermott can. I bet we can expect a change after the season...or McDermott may take a harder look.

 

[ColoradoBills]

On 10/24/2019 at 7:17 PM, Rocket94 said:

Star will definately not be here when his contract runs out.

 

Star is likely gone before the end of his contract.  Can't see him having much impact come 2022.

McDermott is loyal to guys like Star but not to the point of it affecting the D.

Depending on his play and the other DTs on the team 2021 could be iffy for him.

[Rocket94]

4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Star is likely gone before the end of his contract.  Can't see him having much impact come 2022.

McDermott is loyal to guys like Star but not to the point of it affecting the D.

Depending on his play and the other DTs on the team 2021 could be iffy for him.

Yes, McDermott is loyal, but if it reaches the point of effecting the defense as a whole, you have to move him. The Bills need to address the DE position, and when that is solidified, they will have room to maneuver.

[Rock'em Sock'em]

I re-watched the first quarter of the Dolphins game focusing on Star.  He was double teamed on most running plays.  Though he did not get overwhelmed by the blocks, he failed to shed any of them to help out on tackles.  There were opportunities to do that on a couple of the longer runs. On pass plays, he was single blocked and he failed to penetrate or beat his man.  One pass play he was able to push his blocker back a yard or two.  No sense of urgency in his game.  In summary, he is just not really an "active" player, which the stat sheet confirms.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Rock'em Sock'em

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, Rocket94 said:

Yes, McDermott is loyal, but if it reaches the point of effecting the defense as a whole, you have to move him. The Bills need to address the DE position, and when that is solidified, they will have room to maneuver.

 

That's exactly how I see it too.  Star will play in 2020 but after that.................

[LABILLBACKER]

Star is hardly that and definitely not worth the salary.  During the Miami game he got dominated and looked terrible. It's like he just accepts the double team and just stands there. He doesn't even try to spin out of a block. Jordan is substantially better.

[Rocket94]

9 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

That's exactly how I see it too.  Star will play in 2020 but after that.................

but after that...I doubt it!

[GG]

On 10/25/2019 at 5:09 PM, GoBills808 said:

?I'll watch it with an open mind. Personally I don't see it but I'm always up for a different perspective

 

Here's a video of the 23 running plays through mid 3Q when the game was still close.  I didn't have time to cut into two separate video for Star & Peko.  To help out in the video clips,

 

Star's snaps are 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11, 12, 15, 18, 19 (both are in)

Peko is 3, 6, 7, 9, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23

 

Notice the pattern above?  Essentially Star got benched after the halftime adjustments.   When you watch the tape, his lack of effort truly stands out, especially when you compare Peko's clip #14 to Star's clip #15.   It was after that sequence that Star's snaps were greatly reduced.

 

Also notable is that the majority of 'Phins big runs were straight up the middle, so you have to take a deeper look at the DTs and MLB.   Good thing it was only the Dolphins.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by GG

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

I hated the Star Louteleilei pickup when we did it and haven't felt wrong about saying it since, he's supposed to be a space eater and he gets manhandled quite a bit. A space eater to me is someone like Casey Hampton of the Steelers who actually was impossible to move of the line, Star is not even in the same league. We could have paid many other guys to do what Star does and actually do it well, maybe I'm off base but I'd love to see something about how much of an impact he's actually making eating up blocks.

[SmokinES3]

On 10/24/2019 at 1:02 PM, RoyBatty is alive said:

For Star to be effective he has to take up 1 1/2 blockers every play on average...honestly i haven't focused in on him to notice

And the Defense has been very good overall. Top 10 against the run. That, and not noticing his presence, when he has played roughly 43% of snaps, tends to indicate he's done his job well. 

I'm not saying he has necessarily done a good job, just making an observation.

[billsfan_34]

Sometimes the D lineman on a good defensive unit that we do not hear a lot about is a good thing. We don’t know what is being asked of him in regards to his role. I was guilty of bashing on Shaq but as I learned more of his role I was a tad harsh.

[Thurman#1]

On 10/25/2019 at 9:48 PM, dave mcbride said:

Lotuleilei actually produced in Carolina up until his final season there, which is when he began his decline into the ultimate JAG. On the positive side, he knows his assignments and doesn’t get injured (no small thing). But as I said earlier, NFL players are paid to make plays. He is not even close to being a disruptor, and his lack of ability to pressure the QB is one reason why the Bills’ sack numbers are pretty low (13).

 

 

 

Yes, he certainly did produce in Carolina. But not much more than he did here. When you look at the numbers you're referencing (which are NOT the only important thing, far from it)  those numbers were very low there. A bit lower here. But in terms of production per snap of the "glamor stats" people are looking for, it's all but statistically insignificant. The kind of thing where once or twice a year a DE chased a QB into Lotulelei. Or didn't. It also has to do with Carolina's offense being better which had teams throwing more regardless of what down it was, which gave Lotulelei more snaps that were passes with Carolina.

 

And it's nonsense that he's not a disruptor. That's exactly what he is. A perfect example on the Jordan Phillips tackle-for-loss at the Bills two this last week when the center's need to go over and double Lotulelei opened a hole for Phillips to get through. Phillips did a terrific job there disrupting the play. So did Lotulelei in making Phillips' play possible.

 

He disrupts a lot. Just not the way that you recognize. Doing a good job absorbing a double can be an impact play even if it's someone else who gets the tackle or turnover or hurry.

 

And absorbing double teams is a huge help to teams with talented sack artists. We don't have enough of those right now, unfortunately, but other teams with space eaters manage to sack plenty. Especially as many space eaters, including Star, are on the bench on obvious passing downs when most sacks come. Whether a team uses a space eater doesn't necessarily tell you how they'll do with sacks. And Star is a great example of that. Carolina were close to the top of the league with Lotulelei on the team and it wasn't his roughly two sacks a year that made the difference. 

 

And defenses aren't judged by sacks. They're judged by how well they play defense, how well they limit the other team's offense by hook or by crook. Our defense was excellent last year and elite so far this year. Is that all on Star? Absolutely not. But has he played his part? Yup.

 

 

 

As noted here before, if you look at the salary rankings of DTs, not all of the highest paid are space eaters. There are 1-techs, 3-techs, penetrators, five-tool guys like Aaron Donald, but there are also some space eaters. They're still greatly valued by some defenses. And as should be dazzlingly obvious by now, 

 

 

 

Again, I'm not arguing how well he's doing this year. I'm not convinced either way on that. He may have regressed as Joe B has said. And if so, that may be due to an injury or just regression. Hard to be sure with a guy doing such a dirty blue-collar task in the middle. Or not without extensive focused film study anyway.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

I hated the Star Louteleilei pickup when we did it and haven't felt wrong about saying it since, he's supposed to be a space eater and he gets manhandled quite a bit. A space eater to me is someone like Casey Hampton of the Steelers who actually was impossible to move of the line, Star is not even in the same league. We could have paid many other guys to do what Star does and actually do it well, maybe I'm off base but I'd love to see something about how much of an impact he's actually making eating up blocks.

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/2018-buffalo-bills-all-22-in-review-defensive-tackle

 

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2019/01/bills-lorenzo-alexander-says-star-lotulelei-earned-every-bit-of-big-contract.html

 

 

"But Buffalo linebacker Lorenzo Alexander, who called Lotulelei “disruptive,” said that the former Panthers tackle was well worth it and is going to be a staple on the team for years to come. “Obviously he (doesn’t play) a sexy position, but he allows other people around him to make plays,” Alexander said. “I’ve definitely been able to have a pretty good year this year. A lot of it is contributed to what he’s been able to do as far as keeping guys off me, allowing me to run free. “In the pass rush, people can’t step up. On first or second down I know a couple of guys that have gotten sacks throughout the year just because Star has gotten that great push. He’s earned every bit of what he’s got with that five-year deal.”

It’s hard to argue with the results that the Bills defense had this season, finishing the year ranked second in the NFL in total defense and No. 1 in pass defense.

Bills defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier raved about Lotulelei’s first 16 games in Buffalo and explained that his unselfishness allows others to thrive and young players, like linebackers Tremaine Edmunds and Matt Milano, to develop. “He demands a double team which allows our linebackers to run free and make some of the tackles that people might think the nose tackle should be making,” Frazier said. “That has been a plus for us, helping our linebackers to improve. But also to help our run defense. He’s done a good job of commanding attention from their interior, their center and their guards. It’s hard to block him one-one-one and that’s what we needed and he’s given us that.”

 

 

Alexander said he shows others how to succeed because of the example he sets. “He’s a great leader. He doesn’t say a lot but the way he works and the way he goes about his business and the way he relates to guys in this locker room goes a long way,” Alexander said.

[TheBeaneBandit]

Bump. The interior is soft in this team....

[Helpmenow]

Run the ball up the gut is the key on the bills.

[Gunsgoodtime]

Yes, he is no where near worth the contract.  He does very little 

[JoPar_v2]

I think it’s safe to say both Star and Oliver are liabilities 

[GoBills808]

Have to see game film but again I didn’t see him the issue...Peko is super green and Phillips isn’t a 1tech

[billsfan89]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Have to see game film but again I didn’t see him the issue...Peko is super green and Phillips isn’t a 1tech

 

They need a run stuffer. Oliver and Phillip's are penetrators, Star is average at best. There should be a big run stuffer on a losing team available to trade for. WR is another trade they should make but there might not be too much of a market. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

 

They need a run stuffer. Oliver and Phillip's are penetrators, Star is average at best. There should be a big run stuffer on a losing team available to trade for. WR is another trade they should make but there might not be too much of a market. 

I agree. It’s been a liability

[MAJBobby]

Once again Star just Abused. Put in skates. 

[Brand J]

I miss Ted Washington.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

How bad Trent Murphy is deserves it's own thread too

[GG]

I didn’t watch the game.  I have a stinking suspicion it will be a replay of last week.  The OCs have figured out the BIlls’ weakness and will exploit it until Bills show they can stop the run up the middle. 

[billsfan89]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I agree. It’s been a liability

 

Unlike WR there could be a fix out on the trade market. Make the move put your defense in a position to improve

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Bills may need to completely rebuild that DL this summer. 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

Is Star a liability? I don't think so. I think he's a JAG. He's not even remotely close to being worth his contract, but I don't think he's a "bad" player

 

 

[GG]

6 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Bills may need to completely rebuild that DL this summer. 

 

They need 1 true space clogging run defender.  Star has just given up.  If he does nothing else but stay in one place that would be an improvement over his play as of late.