ColoradoBills Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, NoSaint said: It’s quite the argument you make. Quite the argument. That if cherry picking a timeline that includes tyrells best season that occurred 3 years ago his stats are more than half what brown produced is not particularly compelling to dissuading me from my overall point But for entertainments sake, if writing off my totally arbitrary 10x statement that was meant to indicate simply that he was substantially better, what multiple would you assign to browns ability comparatively?!? Is he more like 1.7x the player? 2.4x?!? ? I didn't intend to cherry pick anything. I just grabbed the stats of his teammate who lines up on the other side of the field. Williams has only been a starter for 3 years. AB is a much more talented WR but the question is compared to what. My point was that OAK will have to decide if his on field play is worth the drama. My reply (not argument) was to add my perspective to your post.............I guess that failed. No hard feelings over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Not a contract expert but I think it would be really hard to get that guaranteed money back. But he will lose his game check. Here's the article I linked up thread. Per this, it's not hard at all and he's already put himself in position for Oak to claim that he's forfeited, even without suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I hear you, my point is for all we know, maybe Mayock did try. He said in the helmet ultimatum that they supported Brown's appeal to the league. Maybe he tried to have AB's back and tried to be personable all spring, and that public ultimatum was the expression of 'we had your back, we supported you through your league appeals, now they're over and you're still not here' frustration. Or maybe not. It's just we saw the tip of the iceburg in the press conference and the letter, but how big the attempts to work with AB below the surface were, only Oak insiders know. Theres also a reputation thing here: Mayock has a reputation as a professional whose gonna handle things well. (From everything I’ve seen) AB has a different reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 14 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Right. Like we don’t know AB’s side of this already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Standard HR stuff may not translate, but you need to be consistent with the locker room. I don't think the "top sales person brought in 10x the 2nd best" is an apt analogy. Juju Smith-Schuster gained more yards than AB last year on a similar number of targets. James Conner gained more yards rushing + receiving. Jordy Nelson's best years are behind him, but he gained 739 yds on 88 targets last year, more than half of what AB got. I could deconstruct further but why. First up- there are 32 locker rooms and I will say every last single one of them treats all pros different than practice squad players. You can argue all day, you’ll never change my mind. It’s a matter of how wide the gap is - not if there’s a gap. He’s on a 3 year 50 million contract and cost draft capital despite them knowing his antics. If they don’t think he’s their elite weapon than the whole front office should turn in their keys and leave the building today for giving a headache that kind of leverage without expecting substantially better play than the alternative. So you can nit pick how many multiples in my 10x the player remark but for Oakland’s sake I surely hope they think it’s a noteworthy gap. and i have to ask - what in holy hell is with 2 of you now bringing up guys producing “more than half” his yardage. Since when is that ever a meaningful metric? It’s such a bizarre comment to see twice now. Joe flacco produced more than half Tom Brady’s yardage but we are both cognizant enough to realize John brown wasn’t playing with near the qb last year ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 14 minutes ago, The Wiz said: Translation: I need to make sure I get my 10% of that deal. Exactly what I thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 1 minute ago, NoSaint said: and i have to ask - what in holy hell is with 2 of you now bringing up guys producing “more than half” his yardage. Since when is that ever a meaningful metric? It’s such a bizarre comment to see twice now. Oh, For Toast Sake. You're the one who weirdly brought up the "Ten Times Better" analogy. I and others are simply trying to point out that not only is Brown NOT even an integer multiple better than anyone else in the league (10 WR gained more yards last year, including 1 on his team), but even in a relatively poor WR room that traded away one of their best guys (Cooper), he wasn't even 2x as productive as another player still in the room. To call that bizarre is either disingenuous, or reflects rather a lack of perspective on your part. I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Its all good, I don't honestly care about AB since he is not on my fantasy team lol. Although I have really enjoyed watching hard knocks, Gruden is hilarious. In the end, I just think Mayock should have taken a more personable approach with his relationship with AB like Gruden did from the get go. Had he done that and demonstrated he had AB's back during the helmet thing instead of expressing frustration and a back handed ultimatum in the media, then I think their relationship wouldn't have been as volatile where something like this blows up this big. Again, in no way am I excusing AB's crazy behavior, just saying when you trade valuable assets and invest big money into a personality like AB, then you better understand how to best manage it and work with him to minimize these types of incidents. Mayock I think took a risky approach and its not working out. I think you'll find that it is very rare for GMs to take a personable approach with players. That is the Head Coach's job. The Head Coach leads the team and has to be in with the players. The GM thinks about what's best for the franchise, cuts guys, and negotiates contracts. They deal with Agents more than Players. It's better to stay at arm's length and all about business. Good cop/Bad cop. Mom/Dad. Edited September 5, 2019 by DrDawkinstein 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuckyBoys Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 a blessing he didnt want to come here Mike Mayock has to be regretting leaving his sweet gig to join the Raiders perpetual circus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket94 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, DuckyBoys said: a blessing he didnt want to come here Mike Mayock has to be regretting leaving his sweet gig to join the Raiders perpetual circus I agree. Mayock already seems to look weary during interviews, and he has the face of a man who has been had. Its almost like he is studying body language to see if anyone is buying what he says. What can he say? Gruden does not seem to be helping. 12 hours ago, Reed83HOF said: Edited September 6, 2019 by Rocket94 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 5 hours ago, MJS said: This is so awesome. I can't wait to see what happens next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, The Wiz said: Translation: I need to make sure I get my 10% of that deal. Definitely, I've got wonder what that guy actually thinks of AB because it seems like he's got to be a giant pain in the ass. Edited September 5, 2019 by Warcodered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Warcodered said: Definitely, I've got wonder what that guy actually thinks of AB because it seems like he's got to be a giant pain in the ass. $$$$$$ The last time I think an agent actually cared about the player was when I was watching Jerry Mcguire. Edited September 5, 2019 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said: a blessing he didnt want to come here Mike Mayock has to be regretting leaving his sweet gig to join the Raiders perpetual circus He was largely absent during the ‘Hard Knocks’ series this year. Can’t remember when we saw as little of a GM while filming that show. They are usually a focal point. Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Oh, For Toast Sake. You're the one who weirdly brought up the "Ten Times Better" analogy. I and others are simply trying to point out that not only is Brown NOT even an integer multiple better than anyone else in the league (10 WR gained more yards last year, including 1 on his team), but even in a relatively poor WR room that traded away one of their best guys (Cooper), he wasn't even 2x as productive as another player still in the room. To call that bizarre is either disingenuous, or reflects rather a lack of perspective on your part. I'm out. Ten times was obviously an offhand remark to make the point of significantly better. It’s not bizarre or weird. I didn’t work up some metric or anything - heck it wasn’t even directed at brown in that example. I could have just as easily put substantially better in my made up salesman example that I brought up as that’s probably the closest most on this board get to an atmosphere where people’s production ties incredibly close to their compensation and privileges in the workplace. The dude is expected to be their elite playmaker. They knew who he was as a human and brought him in and made a major commitment to him despite that. Now they get to choose whether they want to use discipline to change who he is as a person, or simply babysit him through 18 months and let him be a playmaker on Sunday that doesn’t contribute much outside that. When they acquired him they should’ve been ready for the latter. The only way you fine him is if you are trying to discipline him completely off the team, frankly, as this continues to get worse not better under that approach. If you are doing that before his first snap you done messed up badly in the decision in the first place as you didn’t have the stomach to take on the guy and it’s not a shock to anyone to see who he is 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Did anyone post the Ryan Leaf comment from today? He said something like "I think AB doesn't want to play football anymore. I know because I went through the same thing and acted the same way." Kind of interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Playoffs? Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 What a disaster this guy is. Imagine Steelers fans are loving this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuckyBoys Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 I really like Mike Mayock the best by far from the draft gurus . He's in for a interesting ride even once they get AB moved/released/this gets swept under the rug. Gruden wrecked the Bucs in short order after he inherited Dungy's team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, K-9 said: He was largely absent during the ‘Hard Knocks’ series this year. Can’t remember when we saw as little of a GM while filming that show. They are usually a focal point. Hmm. Because the real GM was all over the show. Knock wood if youre with me! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 How on earth did Mayock figure he would be a GM? The guy makes Mack drafts for a living. Even Mel, a huge blowhard, isn’t delusional enough to believe he could be an NFL exec. He knows how incredibly sweet the deal he and Mayock had. Mayock could not have F’d this up any worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: How on earth did Mayock figure he would be a GM? The guy makes Mack drafts for a living. Even Mel, a huge blowhard, isn’t delusional enough to believe he could be an NFL exec. He knows how incredibly sweet the deal he and Mayock had. Mayock could not have F’d this up any worse. You mean by trading for this cancer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I hear you, my point is for all we know, maybe Mayock did try. He said in the helmet ultimatum that they supported Brown's appeal to the league. Maybe he tried to have AB's back and tried to be personable all spring, and that public ultimatum was the expression of 'we had your back, we supported you through your league appeals, now they're over and you're still not here' frustration. Or maybe not. It's just we saw the tip of the iceburg in the press conference and the letter, but how big the attempts to work with AB below the surface were, only Oak insiders know. I believe that what has hardened Mayock is that although the team supported AB in his helmet saga that most people knew he wasn't going to win against the league he continued to not show up while his team practiced. (As you pointed out.) Although the helmet issue was still being contested by the player he wasn't working out on the field while his teammates were practicing. I wouldn't be surprised if the team was attempting to work with him on his issues throughout the camp much more than what we are aware of. (Again, as you point out.) There is no question that the team gambled on a volatile player who walked out on his prior team. Now what Gruden and Mayock have to decide is whether this zany personality is salvageable. If they don't believe so I think that they will act sooner rather than later to dispatch him and recoup most of the money that they foolishly gambled on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Doc said: You mean by trading for this cancer? Now now, doc. You know that for the right price, he would be a Bill right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Here's what I was talking about up thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Just now, Mr. WEO said: Now now, doc. You know that for the right price, he would be a Bill right now. Yep. Meaning little to no guaranteed money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seoulofstone Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 24 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: I think you'll find that it is very rare for GMs to take a personable approach with players. That is the Head Coach's job. The Head Coach leads the team and has to be in with the players. The GM thinks about what's best for the franchise, cuts guys, and negotiates contracts. They deal with Agents more than Players. It's better to stay at arm's length and all about business. Good cop/Bad cop. Mom/Dad. Right. It's amazing to me that people just assume that the HC and GM are acting independently of each other here. Since Gruden wanted Mayock isn't it likely that the handling of AB was something they agreed upon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 1 minute ago, Doc said: Yep. Meaning little to no guaranteed money. Hardly the point doc. He would be on the roster now... But your suggestion that Beane would have offered “little to no guaranteed money” is typical of your delusion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 14 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: How on earth did Mayock figure he would be a GM? The guy makes Mack drafts for a living. Even Mel, a huge blowhard, isn’t delusional enough to believe he could be an NFL exec. He knows how incredibly sweet the deal he and Mayock had. Mayock could not have F’d this up any worse. It could have been a lot worse. Mayock only gave AB a $1M signing bonus. Imagine if he’d handed him a $10M or $20M check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: Hardly the point doc. He would be on the roster now... But your suggestion that Beane would have offered “little to no guaranteed money” is typical of your delusion Sure it's the point. It makes it easier to get rid of him if he causes problems. Like I told you he would. I didn't think he would/could derail this quickly but he might have done the Raiders a favor in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 1 minute ago, BarleyNY said: It could have been a lot worse. Mayock only gave AB a $1M signing bonus. Imagine if he’d handed him a $10M or $20M check. Getting into a shouting match at this point is proof positive that Mayock is a speech impediment doofus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 19 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: Because the real GM was all over the show. Knock wood if youre with me! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Doc said: Sure it's the point. It makes it easier to get rid of him if he causes problems. Like I told you he would. I didn't think he would/could derail this quickly but he might have done the Raiders a favor in doing so. Serious question: you really think Beanes plan was to offer little or no guaranteed money? I know your trying to splash a point, but that makes no sense. What top vet doesn’t get lots of guaranteed money. Youre making no sense at all now Edited September 6, 2019 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Just now, Mr. WEO said: Serious question: you really think Beanes plan was to offer little or no guaranteed money? I know your trying to splash a point, but that makes no sense. What top vet doesn’t get lots of guaranteed money. Youre making no sense at all now I realize you're (vainly) trying to make yourself feel better about banging the drum loud and hard for the Bills to get this cancer by saying Beane would have made the same mistake Mayock and Gruden did, but he didn't. I'm sure what he pulled in Pgh and wanted some protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 I approve of this exchange. Spicy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Doc said: I realize you're (vainly) trying to make yourself feel better about banging the drum loud and hard for the Bills to get this cancer by saying Beane would have made the same mistake Mayock and Gruden did, but he didn't. I'm sure what he pulled in Pgh and wanted some protection. Lol you know I never did that. Just answer the simple question doc... Edited September 6, 2019 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Just now, Mr. WEO said: Lol you know I never did that. Just answer the simple question doc... LOL! Talk about delusion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Otreply Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 3 hours ago, NoSaint said: They already decided to employ him and commit heavily to two seasons with him. Once youve made that decision you have to figure out how to maximize. I’m sorry but few of our day to day jobs come with an office that shares a guy getting $30m guaranteed so I don’t think standard issue HR stuff translates apples to apples. But if your top sales person brought in ten times the second best and the majority of your revenue he probably gets to make his own hours. Especially if you hired him from the competition for a huge contract knowing he came in late and liked to golf on Friday afternoon. If you want to write him up for that and withhold commissions you probably shouldn’t have brought him on in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 Just now, Doc said: LOL! Talk about delusion. Come on doc. Name a single contract where arguably the best player at his position (or top 2/3) was offered “little to no guaranteed money”. Should be very very easy for you. Tell us all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 (edited) This TNF game sucks but we got Doc vs WEO over here so bottoms up! Edited September 6, 2019 by YoloinOhio 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 6, 2019 Share Posted September 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Come on doc. Name a single contract where arguably the best player at his position (or top 2/3) was offered “little to no guaranteed money”. Should be very very easy for you. Tell us all! Beane merely inquired. No harm in asking. He wasn't game so Beane didn't trade for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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