JoeF Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 (edited) I sincerely believe Flores will coach hard; he has a decent staff. Good experience at a lot of the position coaches and Jim Caldwell as a mentor to Flores. They will get the most out of the talent they have. However, the overall vision for the team is to give Flores and the staff a roster that cannot win many games and that's just facts. It doesn't mean he and the staff stop coaching but the talent he has been given cannot compete. If that's what Flores means by saying he won't tank. I take it at face value. If they get 5-6 wins from this team, Flores and his staff can take satisfaction that they did a helluva job. Stephen Ross won't appreciate it, but they should be proud. Bills fans should be really positive about our current situation. In 2017, the coaching staff was able to get pretty much max performance from the talent they had. In 2018, the Bills went from Peterman, to a Rookie, to Peterman, to Derek Anderson, to Matt Barkley and then back to the Rook. Folks worry about the blowout losses, but the only blowout losses that Josh started were SD (first start) and Green Bay. All the other games were impossible QB situations. Beane didn't hide the fact that the Bills were undermanned last year. He took responsibility for mistakes and took heat off the coaching staff. If Chris Grier and Brian Flores are on the same page --I expect the Dolphins will do the same. The wild card is their fricking crazy, itchy trigger finger owner. Edited September 2, 2019 by JoeF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Everyone claimed the Bills were tanking in McDermott's first season. He also didn't buy into that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I recall listening to Tim Murray in the first of our tank years leading up to getting Sam Reinhart in the draft...he had the "we are not tanking" mumbo-jumbo down to a science! Miami is tanking. End of story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 He won't need to. The General Manager has already done it for him. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Gugny said: This is a great point. Tanking, to me, means the team is trying to lose. I think what Miami is doing here and what Buffalo did two years ago was more of a preparation for the future ... a "PROCESS," if you will. But the mindset wasn't, "okay, let's lose a shitload of games so we can get a top 3 pick," IMO. I think it was, "let's see who we've got who can stick around as we build this team back up; let's play to win and hope for the best; but losing is not the end of the world - as long as we get something out of it." I do think the Bills' season in 2017 was a fluke. I also believe that the Dolphins will comfortably be in the double-digits for losses. But I do not think Buffalo tanked; and since I was one of the people who DID accuse Buffalo of tanking, I am not going to jump to that conclusion with Miami. Tanking occurs at a level higher than the actual team, in terms of players on a field trying to make plays and win games. Tanking is done correctly when the team assembled, and maybe even the coach trying to coach it, are all inept enough that the team cannot win many games. That's what a tank is. No pro athlete is ever going to throw a play b/c he's been told "We're tanking." If it's done correctly, no player has to try to tank a play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 4 hours ago, HOUSE said: The Miami coach, offering what has become the company line despite parting ways with most of its veteran talent this offseason, Didn't someone here label Beane a "God" for doing something very similar? The offense has been replaced from a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuelTime Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I thought the Bills were tanking when Nathan Peterman trotted out on the field as starting QB last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: Tanking occurs at a level higher than the actual team, in terms of players on a field trying to make plays and win games. Tanking is done correctly when the team assembled, and maybe even the coach trying to coach it, are all inept enough that the team cannot win many games. That's what a tank is. No pro athlete is ever going to throw a play b/c he's been told "We're tanking." If it's done correctly, no player has to try to tank a play. I agree 100%. Beane tore the Bills apart, but replaced the players he got rid of with guys who could be good enough to win. And they were. I think an actual tank job would require the GM to replace good players with legitimately bad players. As much as I could not stand Tyrod Taylor, he was/is among the better backups in the league. It's not like Beane brought in/kept horrible players; he didn't. The team ended up, IMO, over-performing and getting a lot of lucky bounces to finish with a winning record. He built a team that had to have a lot go their way in order to win games; and that's exactly what happened. Who knows what Miami will do? Fitz, to me, is probably the best backup in the NFL. If this were a true tank, he would have gotten rid of Fitz and thrown Rosen to the wolves with backups like Peterman and Kizer. That's why I'm holding off on calling this a tank. It's clearly a season in which they don't plan on winning a lot of games. But it's not clear, at this time, that Miami is building a team that will imminently lose each week. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, TuelTime said: I thought the Bills were tanking when Nathan Peterman trotted out on the field as starting QB last year. It's mind-numbing how a NFL HC thought he would be their guy for 2018 not only to win games, but to teach their first round QB the game. The same NP who had all of 1 season of NFL experience. It's decisions like that which give me pause about McD. The NFL isn't a league where people have much time to learn on the job and from their mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 4 hours ago, Boca BIlls said: Shut the ***** up and be truthful for once. It's Ike they think the fans are stupid... I personally would love for them to be just good enough. That way they need to trade the world just to move up. It's probably one of those "exact truth" things. Flores, as a coach, is probably sincere that he will take the personnel he's been given and exert his best efforts to craft a good game plan for them and coach them to a win. What the organizations motives may be in making the moves they've made, is a different question; they're not his department. 1 minute ago, BillsVet said: It's mind-numbing how a NFL HC thought he would be their guy for 2018 not only to win games, but to teach their first round QB the game. The same NP who had all of 1 season of NFL experience. It's decisions like that which give me pause about McD. The NFL isn't a league where people have much time to learn on the job and from their mistakes. I agree, and share your pause. Add in the OL and the WR room last year. Clearly, Mistakes were Made. The question is why, and what's different going forward to avoid making them in future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Didn't someone here label Beane a "God" for doing something very similar? The offense has been replaced from a year ago. Perhaps you don't understand how it works around here. If McBeane do X, it's brilliant. If Miami, the Jets, or Cleveland equally do X, it's just plain stupid. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 50 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: I’m trying hard Ringo, I’m trying really hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 4 hours ago, aristocrat said: That team is going 0-16 I’ll take that bet. 32 minutes ago, Nextmanup said: I recall listening to Tim Murray in the first of our tank years leading up to getting Sam Reinhart in the draft...he had the "we are not tanking" mumbo-jumbo down to a science! Miami is tanking. End of story. Football is different than other sports. You can’t just go half speed and without guaranteed contracts, players are going to play hard. I’m sure there will be stupid posts about Miami losing to Alabama, but this team has nfl talent and it would be stupid to overlook him. Fitz on the Jets were supposed to be terrible and they won 10 games. Sabres related. Miami’s GM is former Sabre’s great Mike Grier’s brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muppy Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 my take is that no NFL Players and or coaches intentionally tank I mean think about it...those individual coaches and players livelyhoods are on the line beyond that one season...who would intentionally want to hire someone again whom was even hinted at playing or game planned/coached at less than their capability or even worse intentionally acted to sabotage scores of games (intentional drops, fumbles, bad kicks ) upon orders in high? That questions their moral character.... I don't know about you but I woudn't sell that out for anybody period and I doubt they would either frankly (unless HIGHLY compensated to do so) Money trumps character in some folks) Now equipping the team to be competitive or not is something construed beyond the influence of players and coaches now THOSE types (GM's, owners) I could conceive wanting to tank for what they think is the greater good of the franchise...But in the process conceivably lose the respect of their fan base and the remaining players, coaches etc. So yeah Im not convinced tanking is ever a great strategy I think its bound to backfire one way or another. Winning cures all though and in its pursuit all avenues be attempted or justified to that end. The conjecture is endless and the answers never really cut and dried ..the bottom line is the money and how the owners will get the most back on their investment..its all about the Money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffaloboyinATL Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Didn't someone here label Beane a "God" for doing something very similar? The offense has been replaced from a year ago. Yes, but subtracting veteran contracts is the easy part. It is how you rebuild after the disassemble that makes all the difference. Time will tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fr. Jerk Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 At this point I think any potential coach hire from the Belichick tree comes with a big red flag. But hey, Phins, let it rip! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Sure, but would he disrespect his ownership by not tanking? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joshin' Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Flores definition of tanking: try hard to win My definition: Try hard to win by getting rid of all good players in order to lose It was bad with Cleveland and bad with Miami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 45 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said: Yes, but subtracting veteran contracts is the easy part. It is how you rebuild after the disassemble that makes all the difference. Time will tell... Correct. Just pointing out the irony. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Perhaps they will use a handful of 1st round picks to parlay into drafting Lawrence in 2020..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Perhaps they will use a handful of 1st round picks to parlay into drafting Lawrence in 2020..... Two Year Tank or Tank4Tua? Love to here those discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said: I’m still shocked at what they pulled on the Texans. Kenny Stills is not good. He’s a decent enough player, but he’s not a game breaker. And Tunsil hasn’t done a thing yet in the league. He’s big and strong and has good technique, but he’s not 2 1sts good and $50 million in guaranteed money good. Soon enough, the NFL will look more like the NBA. They pry threw in Kenny Stills because of his criticism of Stephen Ross. As long as they have a hard salary cap the NFL won't look like the NBA. Edited September 3, 2019 by Doc Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 I do not believe any team is tanking because the timetable for teams is so short. The Dolphins might not expect a super bowl but they will win every game they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 16 hours ago, HOUSE said: Maybe the Dolphins know things no one else does. Or maybe the term tanking just rubs first-year coach Brian Flores the wrong way. The Miami coach, offering what has become the company line despite parting ways with most of its veteran talent this offseason, reiterated Sunday that the team isn't actively looking to lose in 2019. "This game means a lot to me," he said, per Adam H. Beasley of the Miami Herald. "I wouldn't disrespect the game with that. Again, no, we're not. We're going to try to win every game. I think that's disrespectful to even to say that. ... It's disheartening to hear people talk about it, to even say that. For a guy who respects the game as much as the game has done for me, when people say that, it's extremely sad." http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001046023/article/brian-flores-wouldnt-disrespect-the-game-by-tanking Well your management does. Have fun!! 16 hours ago, Boca BIlls said: Shut the ***** up and be truthful for once. It's Ike they think the fans are stupid... I personally would love for them to be just good enough. That way they need to trade the world just to move up. Cant say it publicly 16 hours ago, BobChalmers said: “I wouldn’t disrespect the game with that. Again, no, we’re not. We’re going to try to win every game. " In fairness - there's a difference between tanking the off-season, and tanking the regular season. Flores appears to be taking a narrow definition that only refers to how hard they will try to win (with the roster they have) during the season. It's the reporter's fault for not grasping that and following up. Btw - I think this was absolutely the right move for the Fish - they've had a good look at Rosen, and it was probably obvious to them he's not the answer at QB - so they need to get their franchise QB thought the draft - either next year or 2021. This sets them up very well to try for that. Miami got a lot of good value - Houston is going to regret this trade - horribly if Watson gets hurt (yet again). Not having a GM to balance the Head Coach is bad. Glad Trevor Lawrence isnt available, i would be ill if he went there. Probably goes to the Pats after Brady retires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 15 hours ago, Steptide said: I actually think they'll pull out a few games with Fitz, but I don't see them winning more than 2 or 3 games at most. Then again, the jets were supposed to be the worst team in the NFL a few years ago and they won 6 games, so who knows Poor Fitz. Would like to see him on a winning team. If im him im asking for a trade to the Colts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Flores got jokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 As others have said, players & coaches don't tank, but management does. When management puts together a really bad roster the guys on the field & on the sidelines can try as hard as they want and they'll still get their butts kicked all season. The sport that tanking has worked best at recently is baseball. Teams like the Astros & Cubs stripped the major league talent down to nothing, lost over 100 games & a few years later were World Champions. Nobody ever accused a player or manager of tanking but they all knew they were in for a long season when they looked around and didn't see much talent in the locker room. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Well it's not the coach who tanks. It's the GM and Owner. Coaches can't do a thing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIrvine Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 3 hours ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said: Two Year Tank or Tank4Tua? Love to here those discussions. Three year tank for Nix. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 10 hours ago, MOVALLEYRANDY said: Two Year Tank or Tank4Tua? Love to here those discussions. I would wait for Lawrence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 51 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Orchard has been released by 4 other teams--a total of 5 teams in 5 years (including the BILLS). 4 teams have released him in less than 12 months! He wasn't their "top pass rusher" as he's only been with the team since May. He sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just now, Mr. WEO said: Orchard has been released by 4 other teams--a total of 5 teams in 5 years (including the BILLS). 4 teams have released him in less than 12 months! He wasn't their "top pass rusher" as he's only been with the team since May. He sucks. Right. Who is their top pass rusher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just now, YoloinOhio said: Right. Who is their top pass rusher? Has to be Charles Harris, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said: Right. Who is their top pass rusher? Not sure. Sal is a moron though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Not sure. Sal is a moron though. The dolphins beat reporter was the one who said he was their top pass rusher, not Sal. Sal was lamenting the fact that he was referred to as their top pass rusher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said: The dolphins beat reporter was the one who said he was their top pass rusher, not Sal. Sal was lamenting the fact that he was referred to as their top pass rusher. Yeah but it's not true. He could have corrected the beat writer instead of lamenting this as evidence of a tank. Lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted September 9, 2019 Share Posted September 9, 2019 On 9/2/2019 at 12:02 PM, C.Biscuit97 said: I’ll take that bet. Football is different than other sports. You can’t just go half speed and without guaranteed contracts, players are going to play hard. I’m sure there will be stupid posts about Miami losing to Alabama, but this team has nfl talent and it would be stupid to overlook him. Fitz on the Jets were supposed to be terrible and they won 10 games. Sabres related. Miami’s GM is former Sabre’s great Mike Grier’s brother. so how bout that bet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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