Should we Trade Zay Jones?

[The Jokeman]

50 minutes ago, SCBills said:

If they think Duke Williams play translates to Regular Season Football, yes - or just cut him. 

 

It just seems like Zay is never on the same page with JA and maybe he just needs a fresh start.   

 

If Roberts is a lock.. Foster backs up Brown as the speed guy.  McKenzie backs up Beasley as the shifty guy and then Duke is the big, physical WR.  

 

 

 Not sure Roberts a lock. As McKenzie can return punts and has shown to be a playmaker on offense.

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

I begrudge you nothing.  It hasn’t happened yet, but your thoughts and comments from that time are spot on so far and do warrant a victory lap, to a degree.

 

 

 

Not so much a victory lap, more defending my honor haha.  I mean people were in the shout box during this very game still saying I will never live that thread down lmao.  I stand by that thread 100% regardless if Zay is on this team week 1 or not

[DJB]

Would people feel better about Zay if lets say hes our 6th or 7th WR? 

 

Brown

Beasley 

Foster 

Roberts

Duke

McKenzie 

Zay

 

I mean im even trying to convince myself that he belongs on this team. But to me hes veen given ample opportunity and hes basically squandered it.

 

Poor hands with a ton of drops.  Penalties. What's holding him here? Draft position?

 

Management have said that hey are keeping the best players on the team regardless of draft position. 

 

Lets see if it holds true

[dollars 2 donuts]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Not so much a victory lap, more defending my honor haha.  I mean people were in the shout box during this very game still saying I will never live that thread down lmao.  I stand by that thread 100% regardless if Zay is on this team week 1 or not

 

 

I disagreed with you vehemently.  Unless things change I am one of those who was wrong and owes you a beer.

[Freddie's Dead]

Zay Jones is the epitome of the mediocre WR's we've had here in the past 3 years.  Time to cut bait.  We have young hungry guys who have way more upside and actually catch the football.  All McKittrick and Williams do is make plays, time after time.  Zay doesn't.  He doesn't make that cut on the jet sweep and dive into the end zone.  He doesn't make that catch over another defender and take it in for the TD.  Instead, he drops a ball on the 1 yd line against the Panthers that was room service from JA.  McKittrick and The Duke catch that and score.  

 

As far as a trade, it's going to be difficult this close to the season.  Somebody will have to want him badly enough to grab him before he hits the streets, where anyone can claim him.  If someone offers a 4th or 5th, git 'r' dun.  6th or 7th, I might have to think about it for 10 seconds. 

[Jpsredemption]

I would in a heartbeat 

[VW82]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I hear ya, but if you recall the post...I said I thought Zay would be traded in preseason, not then the offseason. I made that post before Free Agency and I predicted we would bring in 2 to 3 new WR's, and we brought in 3 with Duke, Brown, and Cole.  I said I thought he would get every shot at this team but would struggle to stand out against better competition.  And if he slipped down the depth chart he could be a guy Beane would try and get some value for before being in a reserve role for a season would kill all trade value.  

 

Everything I suggested in February has pretty much gone that way so far.  The only thing left, is will he be traded (or even cut, but I still doubt he would get outright cut).  Brown took the top spot, Cole took the slot spot, and Zay has failed to lock down a starting spot and has not risen to the occasion anywhere during preseason and even dropped a TD last week and a first down this week with the ones.  

 

He still clearly has a shot to be a part of this team, but I think its proven out that the concerns I voiced then are still the concerns now and that his roster spot is not a lock.  

 

I recall and yes you called it but I still think it wouldn't have been the correct move. We couldn't predict for sure that we'd be successful bringing in so many new receivers with his talent.

 

Also, having Zay through this off season and camp had the added benefit of one good culture guy in the receivers room that really knew the offense. I'd argue that on its own is worth the 6th round pick or whatever we might have got for him.  

Edited August 24, 2019 by VW82

[keepthefaith]

The Bills are facing some tough decisions for the final 2-3 WR spots on this team.  Whatever they do though that position should be much upgraded from a year ago. 

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

I disagreed with you vehemently.  Unless things change I am one of those who was wrong and owes you a beer.

 

All good brother, you own me nothing.  All the disagreement was fair and warranted...it was always going to be a split subject.  But at least now, no one can say it was crazy or meritless as just about everything I wrote proved accurate.  Now whether or not that all equates to Zay being traded (or cut as some others suggested), is still up in the air.  But at least my thoughts have been validated.

[SCBills]

The credence I’ll give to the “Keep Zay” argument is that we haven’t seen him out there in the real, regular season offense, with John Brown and Cole Beasley.  

 

He’d be the 3rd WR out there and he does get open.  

 

Now, would Foster, McKenzie and Duke all look better in that role?  

 

Foster, I’m keeping because he’s shown big play, deep threat ability and we need that in our offense.  Even if he’s just John Brown depth.  

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

 

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Zay had 4 against MIAMI.  Pump the brakes.  

 

Ok cool. You brought up Foster and 100 yard games; how many multiple TD games does he have under his belt?

 

I get that you took a ton of heat in your old thread, and maybe got backed into a corner and need to ride your prediction to the end, but the fact of the matter is that there are probably as many logical reasons for keeping Zay as there are logical reasons for moving on. We'll know soon enough how the staff feels about Zay. 

[McBean]

For what?

 

A bag of balls?

 

Give me Isiah McKenzie and Duke Williams over Zay Jones. All day.

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

People seem so shocked that Zay could be the man out (he may not be, but hardly a lock to make it), as if 2nd round picks don’t bust all the time.  

Look back to the 2008 draft. Everybody was projecting Devin Thomas to Buffalo in the 1st, Buffalo took McKelvin. The 2nd round was littered with busts- Devin Thomas, James Hardy (RIP), Limas Sweed, Malcom Kelly all busts who were all highly touted. Two great WRs were selected in that round as well in the form of Jordy Nelson and Desean Jackson, but the bust % is very high on early round WRs.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Dr.Mantis_Toboggan

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

 

Ok cool. You brought up Foster and 100 yard games; how many multiple TD games does he have under his belt?

 

I get that you took a ton of heat in your old thread, and maybe got backed into a corner and need to ride your prediction to the end, but the fact of the matter is that there are probably as many logical reasons for keeping Zay as there are logical reasons for moving on. We'll know soon enough how the staff feels about Zay. 

 

Im not saying they should not keep Zay...you said no other WR could outplay him and cited Foster...yet Foster did out play him in the final 7 games.  Zay not only had 2 TD's against Miami, but he also dropped a critical pass just before the Clay drop to end the game that basically cost us a win.  

 

So yes, he had multiple TDs, but you seem to forget he also helped us lose that same game.  Then the other 2 TD game was in week 17 against a Miami team who mailed it in.  If thats the best evidence to make his case in 31 career games as a starter, then thats not a strong foundation IMO.  

 

In 31 career games:

No 100 games

22 games under 40 yards recieving

Dropped the most passes on the team both years

Has a horrible catch rate for his career

Edited August 24, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[HappyDays]

He doesn't fit into this offense at all. Maybe he could be a mediocre starting receiver elsewhere but he and Allen don't have any kind of consistent connection going. If we could get a 5th for him I'd take it but I'm not sure if we could get that much.

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

He doesn't fit into this offense at all. Maybe he could be a mediocre starting receiver elsewhere but he and Allen don't have any kind of consistent connection going. If we could get a 5th for him I'd take it but I'm not sure if we could get that much.

 

Zay is good enough to play in the NFL, but the question is if he is good enough to be a big part of an offense or is he better suited as a depth player.  Evidence so far to me suggests he's more likely to be a JAG WR (Just Another Guy), which is fine and could still have a long career.  

As a Bills fan though, I would rather take a chance on a guy like Duke who seems to do something specific exceptionally well (High point balls, contested catches, red zone threat) versus a guy who is just average or below average at everything.  At least then, you have a dedicated role for Duke where he could excel as a possession guy versus a guy thats unreliable with his hands and doesn't have a part of his game that he excels at...at least not yet.  I mean he can still get better of course.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

44 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

He was tied for 16th in the league with 7 Tds, even with our pathetic line, running game, QBing and nothing even close to a #1 WR to draw coverage away from him.

 

Sorry, but I don't want another Stevie Johnson here... we have Brown and Beasley, so keeping Zay around makes absolutely no sense. Whatever... don't understand this defense of a guy who was supposed to be very reliable but is anything but.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Im not saying they should not keep Zay...you said no other WR could outplay him and cited Foster...yet Foster did out play him in the final 7 games.  Zay not only had 2 TD's against Miami, but he also DROPPED a critical pass just before the Clay drop to end the game that basically cost us a win.  

 

So for all the 2 TD talk, you seem to forget he also helped us lose that same game.  Then the other 2 TD game was in week 17 against a Miami team who mailed it in.  IF thats the ONLY evidence to hold on to in 31 career games, then thats not a strong foundation to stand on.  

 

In 31 career games:

No 100 games

22 games under 40 yards recieving

Dropped the most passes on the team both years

Has a horrible catch rate for his career

 

But hey, he got those 4 TDs against Miami, which is also HALF his career TD production practically.  

 

That's not what I said.

 

To be honest, you make great points as to why he won't or shouldn't be here much longer. I guess I was just playing devil's advocate a bit. I want this team to be better, and if that means moving in from Zay, so be it. I have no personal affiliation to him, although I think we all would like for him to improve and be a part of the team being better.

 

Maybe he makes the final 53, but is traded before the week 8 deadline. If so, your prediction thread should be considered a "win" for you in my book.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

50 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

What do you need to see out of Zay? Obviously he's not a #1 WR in the NFL, but I could see him being a good #2 WR in the league. With no #1 WR on the team last year, a bunch of bad QB play from 4 different starters and no running game he had 56 Rec, 652 Yds & 7 TDs with a 1.5 million dollar cap hit. The 7 TDs was tied for 16th in the league last year. That's really, really good value for 1.5 million. He has 2 years left on his contract with cap hits of 1.8 & 2.15 respectfully, there's no good reason to get rid of him when he makes that little.

 

 

I would not want to straight up cut Zay. He has value for our team. That said, I think Duke Williams should at least have the opportunity to play snaps ahead of or at least equal to Zay to see what Duke can bring to the offense. That will mean cutting Foster which may or may not happen. Or Roberts which could be a surprise move.

 

While his numbers overall look all right for a number two WR, Zay last year was targeted more like a high level two or low level #1. For all receivers with 100 or more targets last year Zay wad near dead last in catch rate, YPC and YPT.

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

That's not what I said.

 

To be honest, you make great points as to why he won't or shouldn't be here much longer. I guess I was just playing devil's advocate a bit. I want this team to be better, and if that means moving in from Zay, so be it. I have no personal affiliation to him, although I think we all would like for him to improve and be a part of the team being better.

 

Maybe he makes the final 53, but is traded before the week 8 deadline. If so, your prediction thread should be considered a "win" for you in my book.

 

Its all good...I edited but you replied before you got the edit.  Didnt mean my first pass to sound snarky...was just trying to emphasize some points.  

 

But like I said, its all good.  

[Victory Formation]

I think you deal him. I disagree that he has no trade value.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

4 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Sorry, but I don't want another Stevie Johnson here... we have Brown and Beasley, so keeping Zay around makes absolutely no sense. Whatever... don't understand this defense of a guy who was supposed to be very reliable but is anything but.

Well, let's list the QBs he's had in his 2 years here: Tyrod Taylor, Nate Peterman, Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley & rookie QB Josh Allen. Once again for production vs play value where you finding better value? His cap hit is 1.8 million this year and dead cap hit is 1.5 million.

[Jumpsuit Jim]

Foster does not have a better chance than Z Jones of making this squad. Fans might like him because he caught a couple of cool deep balls from Josh, but I highly doubt that the coaches feel he is a better option than  Zay. I’ll even say that McKenzie and Duke have a better shot at making this team than Foster. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 minute ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Well, let's list the QBs he's had in his 2 years here: Tyrod Taylor, Nate Peterman, Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley & rookie QB Josh Allen. Once again for production vs play value where you finding better value? His cap hit is 1.8 million this year and dead cap hit is 1.5 million.

 

Not the best. But some of the blame still should go to Zay. Foster had a significantly higher catch rate, YPC and YPT than Zay last year playing with most of the same QB’s.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 hour ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

I'd try and trade Zay for a backup tackle or picks.  If as some suggest Zay has little trade value, (personally I disagree) then would keep him and consider releasing Foster to make room for McKenzie and Williams

 

Zay was one the same page as JA something like 54 times last year.

 

I also think many here are over valuing these WR at the bottom of the depth chart.  They all bring unique attributes to the team, but are also similar in overall abilities.  Are they really better than one of the top 5 or is it just "We can't lose this guy"

 

I mean, this happens every year. The get rid of zay takes are about as silly as the Wade should made the 53 takes. I mean, these are just not serious takes.

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

Well, let's list the QBs he's had in his 2 years here: Tyrod Taylor, Nate Peterman, Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley & rookie QB Josh Allen. Once again for production vs play value where you finding better value? His cap hit is 1.8 million this year and dead cap hit is 1.5 million.

 

People keep bringing up the QB's...so are you saying its the QB's fault he dropped so many passes right in his hands?  

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

People keep bringing up the QB's...so are you saying its the QB's fault he dropped so many passes right in his hands?  

Really doesn’t matter how many times you hear the stats (the objective evidence), you are still gonna die on this hill? I’ll say it again: your untrained eye test is not more reliable than the nfl record keepers, who say he had an average drop rate in his second year. Trust the pros man. You may like looking at old bones in a museum, but that doesn’t make you an archeologist. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

People keep bringing up the QB's...so are you saying its the QB's fault he dropped so many passes right in his hands?  

No I'm not. What I'm saying is pay vs play where you finding what he did last year for what they are paying him? They save very little by getting rid of him in a year we have tons of cap space left. He's worth a roster spot. Also do other players not rack up really good stats vs bad teams? Last year no line, no QB, No running game, no #1 WR and hell throw in no hands, he still did above average.

[skibum]

He’s a perfectly capable #3 WR on a rookie contract, and he has a rapport with Josh Allen. There is nobody else below Beasley on the depth chart who has legitimately proven to be better than Zay. Why get rid of him now?

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

No I'm not. What I'm saying is pay vs play where you finding what he did last year for what they are paying him? They save very little by getting rid of him in a year we have tons of cap space left. He's worth a roster spot. Also do other players not rack up really good stats vs bad teams? Last year no line, no QB, No running game, no #1 WR and hell throw in no hands, he still did above average.

 

He won't get cut over cap savings...if he is cut/traded its because they feel someone else deserves the shot more than him.  People keep bringing up his low pay while overlooking that guys competing for his spot are just as cheap.  His contract has 0% relevancy right now on whether he makes this roster.  The guy who suit up week 1 with notable contracts are literal locks for this roster, Brown and Cole.  Everyone else is cheap too...so Zay will only be on this team if the staff deems they WANT to keep him over one of the other guys.  

 

5 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Really doesn’t matter how many times you hear the stats (the objective evidence), you are still gonna die on this hill? I’ll say it again: your untrained eye test is not more reliable than the nfl record keepers, who say he had an average drop rate in his second year. Trust the pros man. You may like looking at old bones in a museum, but that doesn’t make you an archeologist. 

 

LMAO...its on film dude.  I laugh so hard at this unwavering insistent the FILM never happened when you can watch it right now.  No offense, but you denying in game footage of him dropping passes is about the most absurd thing I have ever seen on this board.  Its 100% indisputable...like literally 100%.  Keep trying though, respect to the commitment of utter blindness.  

Edited August 24, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

I doubt they’d get any compensation for him.  Other teams are also aware he’s not very good 

^This....always wonder why marginal players on this roster have any trade value.    End thread.....

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He won't get cut over cap savings...if he is cut/traded its because they feel someone else deserves the shot more than him.  People keep bringing up his low pay while overlooking that guys competing for his spot are just as cheap.  His contract has 0% relevancy right now on whether he makes this roster.  The guy who suit up week 1 with notable contracts are literal locks for this roster, Brown and Cole.  Everyone else is cheap too...so Zay will only be on this team if the staff deems they WANT to keep him over one of the other guys.  

 

 

LMAO...its on film dude.  I laugh so hard at this unwavering insistent the FILM never happened when you can watch it right now.  No offense, but you denying in game footage of him dropping passes is about the most absurd thing I have ever seen on this board.  Its 100% indisputable...like literally 100%.  Keep trying though, respect to the commitment of utter blindness.  

I mean, you showing a handful of uncatchable balls does not make them drops. This is why narratives are so problematic. Sure, he sucked his rookie year. But, the stigma attached, so now when you see a ball go his way you have a mind association that you automatically think drop. It’s sort of like how dogs or small children are taught. It’s common in less advanced thought processes. You’re not able to disconnect and look at the play objectively. You just go for your gut reaction. 

[ALF]

I want to keep Zay unless at least a 3rd rd trade.

[Reks Ryan]

54 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

The problem with that is Zay, Foster, and McKenzie were the only NFL wrs on the roster in Feb. Imagine if we'd traded him (assuming Zay was even tradeable) and FA hadn't gone as planned? I still think Zay gets this season to sink or swim. Foster looks like the guy far more entrenched in the doghouse.   

Foster is so entrenched in the doghouse, I'm worried he might be cut.  Which would be a huge disappointment. 

 

As for Zay, to me he fits this year as the 3rd or 4th WR on the team..  You do have the history 3rd year WR improvement factor to consider.   And as other posters mentioned he is on very affordable for this season and next.  

 

The only realistic trade that makes sense to me, is for a starting caliber O-lineman.   Your not going to get a draft pick in the first 4 rounds, and I would prefer not to see them give him away for a late round pick our outright cut him.  

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I mean, you showing a handful of uncatchable balls does not make them drops. This is why narratives are so problematic. Sure, he sucked his rookie year. But, the stigma attached, so now when you see a ball go his way you have a mind association that you automatically think drop. It’s sort of like how dogs or small children are taught. It’s common in less advanced thought processes. You’re not able to disconnect and look at the play objectively. You just go for your gut reaction. 

 

Sounds like someone needs to watch the video again..."uncatchable balls" LOL  

Edited August 24, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Sounds like someone needs to watch the video again..."uncatchable balls" LOL  

What do you think, wanna post the link. We can time each of the drops, look at it more closely?

[BillsVet]

Hard to believe the scouting report on Zay was that he had elite hands, but now he's known for his drops.  Maybe he doesn't like the physicality of the NFL where you're going to get hit making catches he made without much contact in college. 

 

Zay would be an easy cut if the Bills had some depth at WR beyond Brown and Beasley.  

 

The trend for Buffalo is making poor offensive personnel decisions as they've drafted only 1 offensive skill position in the 2017 and 2018 drafts (Allen).  

Edited August 24, 2019 by BillsVet

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

What do you think, wanna post the link. We can time each of the drops, look at it more closely?

 

Already been done in other threads...I did that work, and posted it already.  Not gonna do it again...not trying to be a jerk about that, just I am about to leave for my fantasy draft.  If you want to your notes, sure go ahead and happy to read later.  Mine can be found on this board in the other thread.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

24 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He won't get cut over cap savings...if he is cut/traded its because they feel someone else deserves the shot more than him.  People keep bringing up his low pay while overlooking that guys competing for his spot are just as cheap.  His contract has 0% relevancy right now on whether he makes this roster.  The guy who suit up week 1 with notable contracts are literal locks for this roster, Brown and Cole.  Everyone else is cheap too...so Zay will only be on this team if the staff deems they WANT to keep him over one of the other guys.  

 

 

LMAO...its on film dude.  I laugh so hard at this unwavering insistent the FILM never happened when you can watch it right now.  No offense, but you denying in game footage of him dropping passes is about the most absurd thing I have ever seen on this board.  Its 100% indisputable...like literally 100%.  Keep trying though, respect to the commitment of utter blindness.  

We'll see, but you're running out of time for that trade to happen.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Already been done in other threads...I did that work, and posted it already.  Not gonna do it again...not trying to be a jerk about that, just I am about to leave for my fantasy draft.  If you want to your notes, sure go ahead and happy to read later.  Mine can be found on this board in the other thread.

Good luck, man. Good thing for you drops don’t hurt your fantasy stock, otherwise you’d be lost. 

 

...I couldn’t help myself.