Solution to bad calls?

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 hour ago, Ol Dirty B said:

Or how about we all stop being children and just accept bad calls are a part of sports.

 

If you make the game so clean and perfect you take so much out of it. 

 

 

I see no one acting like children. I do however see some pissed off fans, rightfully so. sure, bad calls happen but they have in the last decade and especially in the last couple years have been out of control and is ruining the game for many, including myself. calls that ultimately can decide a game, that's not a part of sports, that's favoritism at its finest.

 

too much money involved to be just "bad calls".

 

 

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

Theee are so many complaints about bad calls in the NFL, and many say we should rely more on technology to overcome these.  But my concern is you could conceivably look at any given play in the NFL and pick out a call that should have been made.

 

How about adding a minimum two more officials on the field (I'd put them in the defensive backfield) along with allowing the guy in the press box to make a call if he sees something.  Give each coach one challenge  regardless of the type of call.  If you add officials in the back you have two more sets of eyes back there, and it seems the calls that are by and large screamed about occur primarily back in that area.  The guy in the box can catch the most egregious holding.  And coaches still can challenge truly bad calls.

 

And once this is done, accept the fact that in any game like football there will be human error and just accept that as part of the game.

 

Where I'd locate them is along the side lines, behind the bench 20 feet up in the air in a scissor lift.  They can share the space with the TV camera guy that goes up and down the sideline.  You'd go back and forth along the line of scrimmage.  My thought is a view from up high may be more helpful as the players keep getting bigger and fast in size.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, row_33 said:

 

 

People are horribly biased watching football and are convinced their team is getting ripped off every single play by the refs.

 

This is a personal pathology, not a matter for the officials.

 

 

 

 

 

 

..the game has become too fast and the rules too complex......think that may be why some of the old timers are retiring now in bunches.....why deal with it?...........

Edited January 22, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[BuffAlone]

21 minutes ago, JimmyNoodles said:

124 part time

Hey, its a start? 

[Chris66]

There have been bad calls since football started. I dont rember this much bitchin about refs in the 70, 80s, or 90s. We just accepted it and moved on.

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Foxx said:

the single most bestest thing to prevent controversy would be to minimize subjectivity. the way to do this it to delineate a very clear and precise set of rules and apply them uniformly. period. end of controversy. 

But that tries to place objective criteria on what will always be a subjective issue.  Always comes down to judgment.

 

I agree with a comment hereinnthat at some point you have to accept bad calls are part of the game.  My thought is having two more sets of eyes on the field and a guy upstairs you'll eliminate human error as much as possible.

 

I understand the desire to use more cameras, off site officiating etc., but games would take forever.

[White Linen]

They have a mechanism in place through the challenge process for calls that are made.  The real challenge is what to do about calls that aren't made - that should have been. 

[klos63]

2 hours ago, JimmyNoodles said:

Officials should be full time.  It's crazy that the NFL does not have full time refs.  Also, the game needs to be called the same in the regular season as in the playoffs.  Refs always let more go in the playoffs.  Maybe the regular season should be the same? 

What does that mean?  What do they do during the week?

[LeGOATski]

58 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Nonsense. Don't you think they would have called a discreet hold or TWO if they were really hellbent on screwing the Saints? 

 

If it were to be done, you'd probably never know it.

The ref was staring at the play as it happened. You're saying everyone saw that PI except the professional ref starting right at the play? Even the guy that committed it was looking for a flag, lol.

 

It's so obvious you don't want to believe it. The refs made a conscious decision as a group to keep their flags in their pockets on the play. It happens all the time.

[klos63]

Pass interference calls and personal foul penalties should be reviewable/challenge calls.  Those are probably the most significant calls of any game. Also, reviewable plays shouldn't have to be 100% conclusive to overturn, if you are watching a replay, the call should be as the official sees it at that point. 100% conclusive doesn't necessarily mean it's the correct call.

[LeGOATski]

34 minutes ago, Chris66 said:

There have been bad calls since football started. I dont rember this much bitchin about refs in the 70, 80s, or 90s. We just accepted it and moved on.

The "it is what it is" crowd are obviously not the ones who drive improvement from one generation to the next.

 

As a matter of fact, there was plenty of bitchin. You just weren't as exposed to it.

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Theee are so many complaints about bad calls in the NFL, and many say we should rely more on technology to overcome these.  But my concern is you could conceivably look at any given play in the NFL and pick out a call that should have been made.

 

How about adding a minimum two more officials on the field (I'd put them in the defensive backfield) along with allowing the guy in the press box to make a call if he sees something.  Give each coach one challenge  regardless of the type of call.  If you add officials in the back you have two more sets of eyes back there, and it seems the calls that are by and large screamed about occur primarily back in that area.  The guy in the box can catch the most egregious holding.  And coaches still can challenge truly bad calls.

 

And once this is done, accept the fact that in any game like football there will be human error and just accept that as part of the game.

 

 

& guys on the field missed that blatant PI call...9 would be a magic number?

[Alphadawg7]

I have a simpler solution.  

 

First:  Make pass interference challengeable.  They can challenge a PI flag, or challenge FOR A FLAG on a play they believe a flag should have been thrown. 

Second:  Make roughing the passer flags challengeable, BUT ONLY thrown flags.  You cant challenge that a flag should have been thrown, only dispute a thrown flag.  

Third:  Give the coaches one more challenge flag per half to accommodate the new challenges.

 

NOTE: If coach is challenging that a flag SHOULD have been thrown, they must indicate on the challenge that they are asking for a review to get a PI penalty.  

 

Fixed.

[boater]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

How about adding a minimum two more officials on the field

There are officials up the ying yang as it is.

 

Also, TIME and RHYTHM are factors. Making a game consistently interrupted kills the fan experience. Also there is a TV taboo of making a game longer than three hours.

 

I don't know the answer, but making games longer disqualifies any solution.

[oldmanfan]

20 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

& guys on the field missed that blatant PI call...9 would be a magic number?

I would hope two more guys, one sees that play.

 

The one rule change I'd make us to have PI be a 10 yard penalty/automatic first down

[boater]

2 hours ago, Stenbar said:

Simple, doesnt get any easier or more accountable than that

 

Quote

H. L. Mencken wrote that for every complex human problem, there is a solution that is neat, simple and wrong.

 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Chris66 said:

There have been bad calls since football started. I dont rember this much bitchin about refs in the 70, 80s, or 90s. We just accepted it and moved on.

 

You don't remember it because Patriots fans didn't exist before 2001.

[Billsfanatic8989]

2 hours ago, Stenbar said:

How bout the referees are held accountable for calling a correct game. If  you miss or blow a call that is your responsibility, you get fined the first time, suspended the second time and fired the third.. Simple, doesnt get any easier or more accountable than that

I'm on board. But this is such an egregious missed call that they should be fired. The NFL hasn't said a word yet. I have a feeling something big (Firing) will happen.

[JimmyNoodles]

1 hour ago, klos63 said:

What does that mean?  What do they do during the week?

They work other jobs the rest of the year. Not sure if they have time to do other things during the season. However, wouldn't it be better if they practiced and studied their craft year round? With the money the NFL has it makes no sense.

Edited January 23, 2019 by JimmyNoodles

[klos63]

Just now, JimmyNoodles said:

They work other jobs the rest of the year. Not sure if they have time to do other things during the year. However, wouldn't it be better if they practiced and studied their craft year round? With the money the NFL has it makes no sense.

How do you practice officiating? Not trying to be a wise ass.  If they officiated in other leagues, but is there anything comparable?

[JimmyNoodles]

16 minutes ago, klos63 said:

How do you practice officiating? Not trying to be a wise ass.  If they officiated in other leagues, but is there anything comparable?

No that's a good point. I just think they should be immersed in their job. They should all know the rulebook inside out. They should all watch tape and critique what they do and how they do it. This is partly a mindset. Are you a ref or are you a lawyer who plays a ref on Sundays?

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, Stenbar said:

How bout the referees are held accountable for calling a correct game. If  you miss or blow a call that is your responsibility, you get fined the first time, suspended the second time and fired the third.. Simple, doesnt get any easier or more accountable than that

 

This.  To me the biggest problem with refers is they aren't held accountable.  There are only two instances I am aware of where a ref was suspended.  One of them was this season with the Hughes incident.  

 

If refs were full time and were held to standards then perhaps they would not only get better refs but the refs would do a better job.  That missed PI is unacceptable.  You don't need slow mo to see that.  On the flip side the same ref in another game will call some ticky tacky crap that really shouldn't be called.  There is no consistency.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Scott7975

[wiskibreth]

2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Nonsense. Don't you think they would have called a discreet hold or TWO if they were really hellbent on screwing the Saints? 

 

If it were to be done, you'd probably never know it.

It wasn't about screwing the Saints.  For whatever reason It was apparent that the referees all agreed that they would "let them play" and decided that they wouldn't be calling PI. 

 

There needs to be a guy in the booth who calls down to the field and says...  "Hey blind man!  You missed a horrendous PI infraction, take that yellow flag out of your belt and throw it at Rams 23!...  thank you"

[klos63]

15 minutes ago, JimmyNoodles said:

No that's a good point. I just think they should be immersed in their job. They should all know the rulebook inside out. They should all watch tape and critique what they do and how they do it. This is partly a mindset. Are you a ref or are you a lawyer who plays a ref on Sundays?

I don't think there's an easy ' human' solution. They definitely need to work on the quality, some refs we know stink, but the NFL is difficult to officiate, so the opportunity to allow for correction of calls is necessary. More plays should be subject to review.

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, wiskibreth said:

It wasn't about screwing the Saints.  For whatever reason It was apparent that the referees all agreed that they would "let them play" and decided that they wouldn't be calling PI. 

 

There needs to be a guy in the booth who calls down to the field and says...  "Hey blind man!  You missed a horrendous PI infraction, take that yellow flag out of your belt and throw it at Rams 23!...  thank you"

I would have zero problem with replay on PI calls and I take your point as a distinct possibility. Just noting to the conspiracy theorists that there are better, inconspicuous methods to stifle that Saints drive.

[White Linen]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I have a simpler solution.  

 

First:  Make pass interference challengeable.  They can challenge a PI flag, or challenge FOR A FLAG on a play they believe a flag should have been thrown. 

Second:  Make roughing the passer flags challengeable, BUT ONLY thrown flags.  You cant challenge that a flag should have been thrown, only dispute a thrown flag.  

Third:  Give the coaches one more challenge flag per half to accommodate the new challenges.

 

NOTE: If coach is challenging that a flag SHOULD have been thrown, they must indicate on the challenge that they are asking for a review to get a PI penalty.  

 

Fixed.

 

The only thing left to determine with your solution is how many times can you challenge the calls you've described.  If it's unlimited the games would be incredibly long and if you limit them, you may not have a challenge left.  For example say the Saints didn't have a challenge left when that pass interference wasn't called?

 

It's a tough problem to fix. 

[JimmyNoodles]

16 minutes ago, klos63 said:

I don't think there's an easy ' human' solution. They definitely need to work on the quality, some refs we know stink, but the NFL is difficult to officiate, so the opportunity to allow for correction of calls is necessary. More plays should be subject to review.

I have no problem with reviews if they can be done in a timely manner. There is no ultimate solution because no matter what, a person has to make a decision. They seem to be wrong plenty of times when they review. I think it can be better, not perfect, if refs are full time employees, totally invested in that job, and sink or swim accordingly. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I would hope two more guys, one sees that play.

 

The one rule change I'd make us to have PI be a 10 yard penalty/automatic first down

 

 

They all saw it

[eball]

4 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

You called my position unacceptable... That's pretty much it. I don't mind human error in games. Like I said, it adds to the drama and entertainment. It's part of the story. That's what I like. If everyone runs perfect routes, makes correct reads, throws the perfect ball, makes the correct call the game isn't nearly as entertaining to me. I like the story and the drama. 

 

Ok, you have your preference. I think it’s weird. In my mind “drama” is not waiting for what mistake an official who is not playing the game will make. Call me crazy. 

[Ol Dirty B]

18 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Ok, you have your preference. I think it’s weird. In my mind “drama” is not waiting for what mistake an official who is not playing the game will make. Call me crazy. 

 

Lol whatever. I have a different opinion, get over it. Same goes for Augie.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Ol Dirty B

[Orlando Tim]

5 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Devil’s advocate here....if they have enough angles, like the Edelman did he or din’t he touch it, that gets a lot more reliable. (But hey, I’m still not sure if he touched it, but I think they probably got it right?) 

 

As for MORE refs? The NRC PI was sandwhiched by two refs. I think there is a herd mentality. If one guy had thrown the flag, the other would have launched immediately. But the reverse turned out to be the case. 

I thought the edelman touch/ no touch play was indicative of the issue with the current situation. They called on field he touched it and no angle showed definitely he did not but they overturned it. I do not think it touched him but i am not sure by any standard.

[Augie]

Do we have to resort to PGA style justice? Fans watching on TV calling in to say “Umm, actually, NRC is NOT allowed to smack him in the head while never looking back and the ball is still 5 yards away.” The PGA would fix that!  (But don’t clap too loud!)   ?

[Orlando Tim]

1 hour ago, JimmyNoodles said:

No that's a good point. I just think they should be immersed in their job. They should all know the rulebook inside out. They should all watch tape and critique what they do and how they do it. This is partly a mindset. Are you a ref or are you a lawyer who plays a ref on Sundays?

I agree- a few years back the seahawks and lions game ended when the ball was clearly punched out of bounds intentionally with the official clearly seeing it. No call and i think it is because he did not know the rule.

Just now, Augie said:

Do we have to resort to PGA style justice? Fans watching on TV calling in to say “Umm, actually, NRC is NOT allowed to smack him in the head while never looking back and the ball is still 5 yards away.” The PGA would fix that!  (But don’t clap too loud!)   ?

Man could you imagine? The games would take 6 hours for one drive with all the calls coming in.

[Ol Dirty B]

3 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

The "it is what it is" crowd are obviously not the ones who drive improvement from one generation to the next.

 

As a matter of fact, there was plenty of bitchin. You just weren't as exposed to it.

 

I think you should re-evaluate what it is that you are talking about.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Ol Dirty B

[KD in CA]

Step 1:  Ban replay.

 

The more you cut the officials balls off by letting them know everything will be reviewed, the more hesitant they become and the worse decisions they will make.  When replay was first being considered 35 years ago, I went to a father/son night at my high school.  One of the speakers was an NFL ref and he predicted replay would be a disaster.   And so it has been.

 

In case you're wondering, Brent Musburger and Phil Simms were the other guests.

[iinii]

6 hours ago, Gray Beard said:

I like the idea that a guy in the press box could stop the game and initiate a second look.  The trouble is, there are calls such as holding that occur so often it’s hard to know when it’s crossed a line and should be called.  I could definitely see accusations of bias.

There is already bias

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

17 hours ago, Stenbar said:

How bout the referees are held accountable for calling a correct game. If  you miss or blow a call that is your responsibility, you get fined the first time, suspended the second time and SHOT the third.. Simple, doesnt get any easier or more accountable than that

There, fixed it for you, and added unexpected excitement.  ?

 

EDIT: I posted this with inadequate reflection.  Upon further review, we shoot the offending official after the SECOND screw up.  All the less doctors and lawyers playing football official, to amputate the wrong limbs, and file frivolous lawsuits.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Ridgewaycynic2013
Just culling the herd.

[Ol Dirty B]

2 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

There, fixed it for you, and added unexpected excitement.  ?

Yea... great post

[billvernsays]

I think they should change roughing the passer penalty, So that it’s more in line with roughing/running into the kicker. 

 

Still a flag cause you want to protect the QB but for Christ sakes 15 yards n an automatic first down for some of these calls are ridiculous. For those situations you can throw the flag but only make it a 5 yard variety. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by billvernsays

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

I think you should re-evaluate what it is that you are talking about.

No need.

 

If you have a specific question, I can attempt to provide a clearer answer.