Again in 5 minutes of a game I see catches no Bills have made this year

[Billsfan1972]

I know it is old and tired, but it is almost surreal.

 

I watched 3 minutes of the KC/Seattle game and watch A great TD reception by KC & then Lockett and Baldwin make 2 catches on the clinching drive that no Bills made all season.

 

All I ask is for the proverbial 50/50 ball to be caught, a leaping reception, a catch on what is not a perfect pass, an adjustment made and making that hard cut to the ball.

 

I am just beside myself.

 

 

[dollars 2 donuts]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I know it is old and tired, but it is almost surreal.

 

I watched 3 minutes of the KC/Seattle game and watch A great TD reception by KC & then Lockett and Baldwin make 2 catches on the clinching drive that no Bills made all season.

 

All I ask is for the proverbial 50/50 ball to be caught, a leaping reception, a catch on what is not a perfect pass, an adjustment made and making that hard cut to the ball.

 

I am just beside myself.

 

 

 

It is old and tired because it is old and tired that it is true.

 

the sad things is, 72, I think we can watch 5 minutes of any game and see the same thing.

 

come on, OBD, this has got to stop.  

Edited December 24, 2018 by dollars 2 donuts

[Captain_Quint]

Like the one to Logan Thomas at the 1yd line. Tough catch, but one that you see guys make week after week. 

[BillnutinHouston]

2 minutes ago, Captain_Quint said:

Like the one to Logan Thomas at the 1yd line. Tough catch, but one that you see guys make week after week. 

 

What in your view made that a hard catch?

[Captain_Quint]

3 minutes ago, BillnutinHouston said:

 

What in your view made that a hard catch?

It was a high throw, contested, and he had to stay in bounds.

But thats a catch he should make. He had two hands on the ball and let it go right through. 

[Mrbojanglezs]

Our receivers lack basic skills.....like hand eye coordination

[Billsfan1972]

The point is, I just got back and turned on the game.  This wasn't watching the whole game and picking out 5 random minutes.

 

All the negative Allen comments stupify me as case in point as ho hum a game Allen played yesterday (and yes 2 bad Ints), he was much better then Brady.  

 

I watch Brees, Willson, Rodgers, Rivers and all the top QB's in the league miss receivers and make bad passes, but every incompletion by Allen is analysed and pointed out.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The point is, I just got back and turned on the game.  This wasn't watching the whole game and picking out 5 random minutes.

 

All the negative Allen comments stupify me as case in point as ho hum a game Allen played yesterday (and yes 2 bad Ints), he was much better then Brady.  

 

I watch Brees, Willson, Rodgers, Rivers and all the top QB's in the league miss receivers and make bad passes, but every incompletion by Allen is analysed and pointed out.  

 

Dude yes

[GunnerBill]

28 minutes ago, Captain_Quint said:

Like the one to Logan Thomas at the 1yd line. Tough catch, but one that you see guys make week after week. 

 

Don't even think that is a tough catch. That was a perfectly thrown ball. He didn't even get his hands on it it went straight through them. 

 

How Logan Thomas has spent three years on an NFL roster as a Tight End is a genuine mystery to me. He is absolutely and totally useless. He isn't even Arena League standard, NFL Europe standard..... XFL standard.... he is rubbish. Pure trash. 

[CommonCents]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Don't even think that is a tough catch. That was a perfectly thrown ball. He didn't even get his hands on it it went straight through them. 

 

How Logan Thomas has spent three years on an NFL roster as a Tight End is a genuine mystery to me. He is absolutely and totally useless. He isn't even Arena League standard, NFL Europe standard..... XFL standard.... he is rubbish. Pure trash. 

Croom is barely any better. He has zero instincts. Yesterday’s fumble was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The point is, I just got back and turned on the game.  This wasn't watching the whole game and picking out 5 random minutes.

 

All the negative Allen comments stupify me as case in point as ho hum a game Allen played yesterday (and yes 2 bad Ints), he was much better then Brady.  

 

I watch Brees, Willson, Rodgers, Rivers and all the top QB's in the league miss receivers and make bad passes, but every incompletion by Allen is analysed and pointed out.  

 

Josh played badly yesterday. Other QBs play badly sometimes too. Josh played really well last week. It is possible to think all of the below:

- the offensive talent on this team is sub NFL standard;

- Josh was bad yesterday;

- Josh can be a good Quarterback. 

 

People act as though these are somehow three distinct mutually exclusive positions. 

Just now, CommonCents said:

Croom is barely any better. He has zero instincts. Yesterday’s fumble was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. 

 

Agree. He is only in the team for his skills in the bedroom. 

[hemma]

He looked like he couldn't quite figure out how to position his hands.

'hmm, this way or that way?'

 

 

[CommonCents]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh played badly yesterday. Other QBs play badly sometimes too. Josh played really well last week. It is possible to think all of the below:

- the offensive talent on this team is sub NFL standard;

- Josh was bad yesterday;

- Josh can be a good Quarterback. 

 

People act as though these are somehow three distinct mutually exclusive positions. 

 

Agree. He is only in the team for his skills in the bedroom. 

If he screws as hard as he sucks then his future is probably in the porn industry. 

 

 In all seriousness, if his relationship is the reason he is on the team that’s sad.

[Cripple Creek]

53 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I know it is old and tired, but it is almost surreal.

 

I watched 3 minutes of the KC/Seattle game and watch A great TD reception by KC & then Lockett and Baldwin make 2 catches on the clinching drive that no Bills made all season.

 

All I ask is for the proverbial 50/50 ball to be caught, a leaping reception, a catch on what is not a perfect pass, an adjustment made and making that hard cut to the ball.

 

I am just beside myself.

 

 

Check out the Texas 6A championship hail Mary.

 

Some of this does go on the QB for being willing to make contested throws too.  One example where Allen did yesterday was a poorly thrown pass to Foster down the left sideline in the second half.  IMO, many NFL receivers find a way to cut inside the DB and make that catch. Foster just congratulated Gilmore on his good coverage.

[Thriftygamer83]

This was heart breaking to watch yesterday Croom wasn’t really interested and there was no accountability for his fumble.  Just like he players nodded and treated the game as though they were not inspired to do anything.  Watching Star and Trent Murphy as their usual rotational fillers was frustrating.  It’s evident we cut them or trade them for picks.  

[SCBills]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh played badly yesterday. Other QBs play badly sometimes too. Josh played really well last week. It is possible to think all of the below:

- the offensive talent on this team is sub NFL standard;

- Josh was bad yesterday;

- Josh can be a good Quarterback. 

 

People act as though these are somehow three distinct mutually exclusive positions. 

 

Agree. He is only in the team for his skills in the bedroom. 

 

That’s the thing though... was Josh really “bad”

yesterday?   I think he was off, but I don’t know about bad. 

 

When you look back, you realize that if he had even average receiving talent around him, he probably has another 100-150 yards passing and 2 TD’s.   

 

Thats also while asking him to overcome average at best pass pro and zero run blocking from his OL with WR’s that were constantly owned by the Pats physical press coverage.  

 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by SCBills

[Gray Beard]

I always look at other team’s receivers and it strikes me that they are bigger, stronger, and play with a meaner and more aggressive attitude compared to Bills receivers. 

Fast receivers that stretch the field are nice, but the modern game is currently focused on tight ends and possession receivers, which is what the Bills lack.

[Best Player Available]

The one and only positive take away yesterday.

Regarding Bills pass catchers was Clay was a healthy scratch..

Edited December 24, 2018 by Best Player Available

[Billsfan1972]

He was not bad.  If he doesn't throw two lousy ints, I'd have said he was good.  It was a meh performance, but not bad by any stretch.  Playcalling too lacked imagination (nothing new).

 

His TD, though garbage time again showed his athleticism. 

 

But again minimal separation by the receivers, dropped balls, no adjusting to the throw or shielding the defender. 

 

Too would like to see Allen take the easy 5 yard pass at times. 

[billsfan1959]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Josh played badly yesterday. Other QBs play badly sometimes too. Josh played really well last week. It is possible to think all of the below:

- the offensive talent on this team is sub NFL standard;

- Josh was bad yesterday;

- Josh can be a good Quarterback. 

He didn't have a great day yesterday and he didn't get much help either; however, I do like what I see in him and the overall progression he has made this year.

 

In terms of the offensive talent, what mystifies me the most since Allen has been back on the field these past five weeks is the absolute absence of any kind of running game. You would think, as much as he stretches the field, the constant threat of going deep, along with a dedicated "spy" on Allen, that even a substandard group could get some yardage. Outside of Allen, this team has averaged 69 yards a game and barely over 3 yards per carry over the last 5 games.

[thenorthremembers]

42 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Dude yes

100% yes.   He is picked a part like crazy.

 

And honestly, if the chips fall differently maybe he isnt forcing INTS. 

[Thriftygamer83]

Josh played good and was he only reason why we were in it.  Defensively we stifled their passing game.  Trouble is, is that McDermott is pretty much an inferior product as a Coach.  When compared to Belicheck, Tomlin, Carrol, Reid, Lynn, and Reich.  Harbaugh even showed how it’s done in flipping a teams Quarterback situation.  It’s not just woeful ineptitude it’s the fact that he’s lost his fire and his confidence from last year.  Process receivers are small and fast but cannot catch.  And, McDermott is so completely stubborn as with Peterman that he’ll put and keep these guys out there until he’s out of a job and you cannot blame Josh for McDermott’s wounded pride.  Should have not signed Murphy and Star who are prettt much off the depth charts into rotational roles only and saved thirty million into next year or the offensive line.  Could have played a 4-6 or 4-4 against the run but McDermott is OCD that it has to be 4-3 or it’s a no go.  I have Aspergers with all the ticks I’m starting to wonder if Sean does as well.  

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

Josh played good and was he only reason why we were in it.  Defensively we stifled their passing game.  Trouble is, is that McDermott is pretty much an inferior product as a Coach.  When compared to Belicheck, Tomlin, Carrol, Reid, Lynn, and Reich.  Harbaugh even showed how it’s done in flipping a teams Quarterback situation.  It’s not just woeful ineptitude it’s the fact that he’s lost his fire and his confidence from last year.  Process receivers are small and fast but cannot catch.  And, McDermott is so completely stubborn as with Peterman that he’ll put and keep these guys out there until he’s out of a job and you cannot blame Josh for McDermott’s wounded pride.  Should have not signed Murphy and Star who are prettt much off the depth charts into rotational roles only and saved thirty million into next year or the offensive line.  Could have played a 4-6 or 4-4 against the run but McDermott is OCD that it has to be 4-3 or it’s a no go.  I have Aspergers with all the ticks I’m starting to wonder if Sean does as well.  

 

How do you know what “process” receivers are? We have barely invested anything on Offense, outside of getting our QB, since McBeane got here (on purpose).  

 

Also, these receivers aren’t even small.  Foster and Zay are both 6’2.  McKenzie is small but was a mid season pickup who will be a 4/5 WR next year if we bring him back.  

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by SCBills

[Kirby Jackson]

30 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

I always look at other team’s receivers and it strikes me that they are bigger, stronger, and play with a meaner and more aggressive attitude compared to Bills receivers. 

Fast receivers that stretch the field are nice, but the modern game is currently focused on tight ends and possession receivers, which is what the Bills lack.

I totally disagree with this piece. It takes speed to open up the rest of the field. The Bills offense is the perfect example of that. Before inserting McKenzie and Foster they were trending towards the worst offense in history. TE play has declined in recent years. Ertz, Kittle and Kelce are good but the position is in a much worse place than 5 years ago. The only big possession guys making a difference now are Julio, Evans and Thomas. Julio runs a 4.39 and Evans a 4.43. They are speed guys. The other top receivers in football are Brown, Smith-Schuster, Diggs, Adams (maybe an exception but has Rodgers), Thielen, Hill, Green, Hopkins, Hilton, Cooks and Beckham. They are ALL speed guys. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Kirby Jackson

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I totally disagree with this piece. It takes speed to open up the rest of the field. The Bills offense is the perfect t example of that. Before inserting McKenzie and Foster they were trending towards the worst offense in history. TE play has declined in recent years. Ertz and Kelce are good but the position is in a much worse place than 5 years ago. The only big possession guys making a difference now are Julio and Thomas. Julio runs a 4.39. He’s a speed guy. The other top receivers in football are Brown, Smith-Schuster, Diggs, Adams (maybe an exception but has Rodgers), Thielen, Hill, Green, Hopkins and Beckham. They are ALL speed guys. 

 

I love the Chargers offense and think that would be a great offense for Allen.  

 

Phillp Rivers also likes to go vertical with guys like Mike Williams, Keenan Allen, Tyrell Williams and Travis Benjamin.   

 

Get Josh WR’s like that and this dude will explode onto the scene next year. 

 

We could easily have something similar in say.. (Draft Pick), Tyrell Williams, Robert Foster, Zay Jones and Isaiah McKenzie. 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by SCBills

[Thriftygamer83]

12 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

How do you know what “process” receivers are? 

 

Also, these receivers aren’t even small.  Foster and Zay are both 6’2.  

 

Great so Zay and Foster play fast, don’t have hands, and don’t use their body frames to get better separation.  Which means that unlike Kelvin Benjamin they won’t eat themselves out of the league they will just be cap eaters and non-factors.  Thinking we need an offensive quality assessment Coach to find better ROI for receivers and tight ends.  

[SoTier]

30 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

We get it. 

 

The recievers and overall offensive talent is putrid. 

 

The offense is putrid and has been putrid in the past.  Nothing new there.  

 

What is so discouraging, this year and for the future, is that so many key players on so many playoff teams are former Bills who were sent packing by the current regime or were available for the current regime to draft and the Bills passed on them for lesser players.  I'm not going to list them all but one of them is a leading candidate for league MVP.  Moreover, the team is so talent deprived and lacking in the ability to evaluate talent, most especially on offense, that they simply aren't going to be able to acquire enough good talent to compete with the best of the NFL in the foreseeable future despite having a pretty good looking QB prospect in Josh Allen.

 

 

[SCBills]

Just now, Thriftygamer83 said:

Great so Zay and Foster play fast, don’t have hands, and don’t use their body frames to get better separation.  Which means that unlike Kelvin Benjamin they won’t eat themselves out of the league they will just be cap eaters and non-factors.  Thinking we need an offensive quality assessment Coach to find better ROI for receivers and tight ends.  

 

Well, you said they’re small...I’m just saying they’re not.  

 

Also, feel free to criticize next year if we have the same issues.   As of now, they’ve willingly neglected offense to gear up for this offseason to build around Allen.  

 

The 2019 offseason is massive for this organization.  

[Thriftygamer83]

13 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

I love the Chargers offense and think that would be a great offense for Allen.  

 

Phillp Rivers also likes to go vertical with guys like Mike Williams, Keenan Allen, Tyrell Williams and Travis Benjamin.   

 

Get Josh WR’s like that and this dude will explode onto the scene next year. 

 

We could easily have something similar in say.. (Draft Pick), Tyrell Williams, Robert Foster, Zay Jones and Isaiah McKenzie. 

 

Sad part is, is that Zay was supposed to be that guy.  He isn’t in any way, shape, and or form fitting what should be a dominant body size and he isn’t even a clutch receiver.  More or less Zay and Foster could be special teamers.  Big body size, no hands, and always being given how Josh is “inaccurate” when they are to lazy to elevate their own performances.  

[Magox]

50 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

That’s the thing though... was Josh really “bad”

yesterday?   I think he was off, but I don’t know about bad. 

 

When you look back, you realize that if he had even average receiving talent around him, he probably has another 100-150 yards passing and 2 TD’s.   

 

Thats also while asking him to overcome average at best pass pro and zero run blocking from his OL with WR’s that were constantly owned by the Pats physical press coverage.  

 

 

For a rookie QB he wasn't bad.

 

He made a few mistakes and hesitated in the pocket a couple times, aside from that he was pretty good.

 

Definitely not his best game and nothing to rave home about but if his pass receivers make a few plays then we could easily have seen a near 300 yard and 3 td pass performance.

[SCBills]

Just now, Thriftygamer83 said:

Sad part is, is that Zay was supposed to be that guy.  He isn’t in any way, shape, and or form fitting what should be a dominant body size and he isn’t even a clutch receiver.  More or less Zay and Foster could be special teamers.  Big body size, no hands, and always being given how Josh is “inaccurate” when they are to lazy to elevate their own performances.  

 

I think Foster has a serious role on this team.  Get some more weapons and the opposing defense’s #2/3 corner on him and he’s a problem.  

 

Zay, I agree, he has a spot on the team next year but I’d prefer it’s in a #4 WR/prove-it role. 

[Thriftygamer83]

Just now, SCBills said:

 

Well, you said they’re small...I’m just saying they’re not.  

 

Also, feel free to criticize next year if we have the same issues.   As of now, they’ve willingly neglected offense to gear up for this offseason to build around Allen.  

 

The 2019 offseason is massive for this organization.  

Signing Star and Murphy to eat up thirty million was a massive mistake now.  When like you said we needed offense.  Including the offensive line and with Star and Murphy getting pushed into rotational roles and taking up that roster space wow McDermott isn’t exactly looking prized for his assessments and evaluations.  

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Thriftygamer83 said:

Signing Star and Murphy to eat up thirty million was a massive mistake now.  When like you said we needed offense.  Including the offensive line and with Star and Murphy getting pushed into rotational roles and taking up that roster space wow McDermott isn’t exactly looking prized for his assessments and evaluations.  

 

Star is overpaid but decent.  

 

Murphy is wildly meh.  I think I read somewhere that we have an easy out on his contract without much dead cap?...  not sure if anyone can verify but I really hope that’s the case. 

[Gray Beard]

25 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I totally disagree with this piece. It takes speed to open up the rest of the field. The Bills offense is the perfect example of that. Before inserting McKenzie and Foster they were trending towards the worst offense in history. TE play has declined in recent years. Ertz, Kittle and Kelce are good but the position is in a much worse place than 5 years ago. The only big possession guys making a difference now are Julio, Evans and Thomas. Julio runs a 4.39 and Evans a 4.43. They are speed guys. The other top receivers in football are Brown, Smith-Schuster, Diggs, Adams (maybe an exception but has Rodgers), Thielen, Hill, Green, Hopkins, Hilton, Cooks and Beckham. They are ALL speed guys. 

I see a lot of speed and big play guys, but I also see a lot of check downs to tight ends and running backs. The Patriots routinely destroy opponents with short passes.  The Bills don’t seem to have check down options that are reliable. It may also be caused by Josh Allen throwing check down passes too hard to be caught. Is that a Josh Allen problem, or a receiver problem?

Kenny Golladay won a ton of 50/50 balls when Detroit played the Bills. It’s that kind of big receiver that the Bills need.  Benjamin was supposed to be that guy, but it didn’t work out. 

[Coach Tuesday]

32 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I totally disagree with this piece. It takes speed to open up the rest of the field. The Bills offense is the perfect example of that. Before inserting McKenzie and Foster they were trending towards the worst offense in history. TE play has declined in recent years. Ertz, Kittle and Kelce are good but the position is in a much worse place than 5 years ago. The only big possession guys making a difference now are Julio, Evans and Thomas. Julio runs a 4.39 and Evans a 4.43. They are speed guys. The other top receivers in football are Brown, Smith-Schuster, Diggs, Adams (maybe an exception but has Rodgers), Thielen, Hill, Green, Hopkins, Hilton, Cooks and Beckham. They are ALL speed guys. 

 

Hopkins is more of a possession guy actually.  He wins with technique, route running, and the strongest hands maybe ever.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

That’s the thing though... was Josh really “bad”

yesterday?   I think he was off, but I don’t know about bad. 

 

When you look back, you realize that if he had even average receiving talent around him, he probably has another 100-150 yards passing and 2 TD’s.   

 

Thats also while asking him to overcome average at best pass pro and zero run blocking from his OL with WR’s that were constantly owned by the Pats physical press coverage.  

 

 

This is my take to. 

 

To be clear Allen was not good yesterday but IMO he wasn't bad either.  It seemed like a classic rookie QB game in which on one series the QB looks like crap then on the next series he looks like an all pro.  The problem was that on those series where Allen was "hot" his receivers were terrible.  Taking into account the passes that should have been caught and would have been caught on MOST NFL teams Allen should have ended up throwing 2 - 3 TD's; 2 INT's and close to 300 yards passing. Then we would all be in agreement that he had an up & down day but the positives slightly outweighed the negatives. 

[GG]

On the flip side, you also saw Benjamin drop a TD pass

[billsfan1959]

26 minutes ago, Magox said:

For a rookie QB he wasn't bad.

 

He made a few mistakes and hesitated in the pocket a couple times, aside from that he was pretty good.

 

Definitely not his best game and nothing to rave home about but if his pass receivers make a few plays then we could easily have seen a near 300 yard and 3 td pass performance.

Allen is still learning and has much to improve on, and yesterday wasn't a great day for him. However,  he did make some good throws that could have made a difference in the game:

11:08 1st Qtr: 11 yard pass to Mckenzie on 3rd and 5. On target and dropped. Ended the drive.

6:41   1st Qtr: 47 yard pass to Foster. On target and room to run to the endzone. Lost in the sun (are you f'n kidding me?)

12:32 2nd Qtr: 4 yard pass to McKenzie on 3rd and 3. McKenzie couldn't even get a half a yard of separation on this route. On target, right in his hands. No catch, drive ended.

10:21 2nd Qtr: 23 yard pass to Thomas. On target. No catch at the goal line.

6:57 3rd Qtr: Flare pass to Ford at the LOS with room to run. On target. No catch

 

I chose those 5 passes because every single one of them was on target and completely catchable by even the lowest NFL satandards. Those drops were the difference between two drives ending or continuing, 1 TD in the game or 2 (maybe 3) TDS, 217 yds passing or 300 + yds passing, and a 49% completion percentage or a 61% completion percentage.

 

This is not to make excuses for Allen. Heaven knows he made some poor decisions and poor throws. However, it just feels like he gets far less help (or even luck) than he should when he does make good decisions and does make good throws.

Edited December 24, 2018 by billsfan1959

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, CommonCents said:

Croom is barely any better. He has zero instincts. Yesterday’s fumble was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. 

Everyone at our party was screaming hold on to the ball as soon as he caught it.  Everyone knew he was gonna fumble

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

2 hours ago, BillnutinHouston said:

 

What in your view made that a hard catch?

For the Bills I would term a hard catch as- "one that hits them in the hands or chest."  A great catch would be anything that the WR's alligator arms have to stretch more than a foot off their body. And the impossible catch involves "leaving one's feet in an attempt to catch the damn ball."